blocks per game vs. steals per game

[tyrant]

everyone says steals per game doesn't mean that you're a good perimeter defender; becuase it's more about keeping your man in front of you, but when someone averages over 2 blocks per game they are considered a good defender. why is that?

 

[Kings113]

I think steals/blocks/rebounds are referred to off-the-ball defense. Not quite sure though.

While on-the-ball, I think, is another term for man-defense.

 

[Mad D]

but when someone averages over 2 blocks per game they are considered a good defender. why is that?

Not sure about that. Raef LaFrentz used to average 3 blocks per game and he was just considered a good help/weak side defender.

 

[mr. moustache]

I disagree. People can rack up blocks if the guards can't contain their man. Look at Brian Skinner. He's not considered a good defender, but he's considered a good shot blocker.

everyone says steals per game doesn't mean that you're a good perimeter defender; becuase it's more about keeping your man in front of you, but when someone averages over 2 blocks per game they are considered a good defender. why is that?

 

[tyrant]

man, the pistons have it all. big men that can stay in front of their man and block shots at the same time.

 

[mr. moustache]

You betcha. There's a reason B. Wallace is considered the best defending big man in the league. He's an above average man to man defender, but he's an exceptional shotblocker and rebounder. Add those together and you get a dpoy

man, the pistons have it all. big men that can stay in front of their man and block shots at the same time.

 

[Bricklayer]

Steals per game can very well mean that you're jsut a gambler who hops around poking at the ball but never really gets into a defensive stance to do the dirty work.


Blocks per game is a little purer in that you can very rarely pick them up unless you are in good defensive position between your man, or criitcally, someone else's man, and the hoop. As the last line of defense, a big shotblocker is solid gold for all of his teammates even if his man defense isn't that stellar. Much better idnicator of overall impact, but there is still the potential downside that guys who paratrooper too much move themselves out of defensive rebounding position. We used to have a center who was really bad about that in Sacto -- good 'ole Duane Causewell. Very good shotblocker, but tried to block EVERYTHING and so was constantly out of position to block his man off the boards. Hence I think a nice addition to just looking at blocks is to look at blocks AND defensive rebounds togetehr to try to figure out who the guys are who really anchor defenses around the league.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Brick, good analysis on why blocks alone is a misleading stat. Besids the valid criticisim of uber-blockers being constantly out of position, the other simple truth is that a blck does NOT gaurentee a change in posession, frequently blocks go back to the offense who convert on the second chance. Steals on the other hand result in not only the loss of a chance to score by the oponent but a solid opertunity to score against a team who is not in it's defense. the down side of course is similer to your complaint about Cause being out of position, once a player goes for a steal and misses he is no longer in position to defend and has left his man open to cut, shoot or make an open look pass. Case in point would be young J Will who's entire defense seemed to center on going for the steal (and even when successfull often jacking up the stupid 3 instead of running the ball all the way down for the lay up).

So in short Steals per game is a bad single diminsion stat and so is blocked shots. I would love to see blocks per game expressed as a ration the same way that turn overs and assists are expressed. Ballanceing out steals is more difficult and would need to be divided into factors like oponents points scored or something equally essoteric.

 

[Bricklayer]

Brick, good analysis on why blocks alone is a misleading stat. Besids the valid criticisim of uber-blockers being constantly out of position, the other simple truth is that a blck does NOT gaurentee a change in posession, frequently blocks go back to the offense who convert on the second chance. Steals on the other hand result in not only the loss of a chance to score by the oponent but a solid opertunity to score against a team who is not in it's defense. the down side of course is similer to your complaint about Cause being out of position, once a player goes for a steal and misses he is no longer in position to defend and has left his man open to cut, shoot or make an open look pass. Case in point would be young J Will who's entire defense seemed to center on going for the steal (and even when successfull often jacking up the stupid 3 instead of running the ball all the way down for the lay up).

So in short Steals per game is a bad single diminsion stat and so is blocked shots. I would love to see blocks per game expressed as a ration the same way that turn overs and assists are expressed. Ballanceing out steals is more difficult and would need to be divided into factors like oponents points scored or something equally essoteric.

But the huge flipside is that a guy who blocks 3 shots a game is probably altering 5 more and intimidating 5 more after that. All of his teammates can play a step closer to their men knowing he's back there to clean up any mistakes. The whole game changes in the way it does not with merely a good thief up top. Merely measuring shots actually blocked only tells a fraction of the story for a top shotblocker. Once you get a guy up above 2 or so a game its almost a geometric progression of impact. A guy who blocks 1 pretty much just blocks one. Might alter 1 other one at some point. A guy who blocks 2 is probably altering half a dozen. A guy who blocks 3 could well be the dominant player on the court even if he is not a scorer.

 

[Bballkingsrock]

I think those don't really matter in defense. It is just staying in front of your man and not letting your man pass the defender. Steals are not really important because, like Bricklayer said, it is justa person who can pole the ball at the right time.

I think blocks are more important because it takes more skill. You have to time it PERFECT to block so thats why Ben Wallace is so good at defense.

But stats on defense don't really matter IMO. Offense stats are more accurate.

 

[HndsmCelt]

But the huge flipside is that a guy who blocks 3 shots a game is probably altering 5 more and intimidating 5 more after that. All of his teammates can play a step closer to their men knowing he's back there to clean up any mistakes. The whole game changes in the way it does not with merely a good thief up top. Merely measuring shots actually blocked only tells a fraction of the story for a top shotblocker. Once you get a guy up above 2 or so a game its almost a geometric progression of impact. A guy who blocks 1 pretty much just blocks one. Might alter 1 other one at some point. A guy who blocks 2 is probably altering half a dozen. A guy who blocks 3 could well be the dominant player on the court even if he is not a scorer.

Point taken... I did not mean to deride shot blocking and you are right guys like Ben Wallace do change the game. I realy was thinking more about the guy who gets a few blocks but realy brings little else on defense (Keon Clark) I am not sure Keon ever realy kept strong players like Malone out of the paint.

 

[Coach]

2 steals a game is a lot. In fact, only 17 players in NBA history averaged 2 or more steals per game. ALL are/were outstanding defensive players.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/SPG_career.html