Bibby's no good, so trade Peja...

[kperica]

OK, so someone said Steve Nash was a comparable player to Nash, and even got some support; then someone critiscized Bibby, and the thread was shut down (they were trolling, but we still didn't get a chance to discuss it).
So, after all of the criticism of Webber and Peja, I think some light needs to be shone on Mike. We all know how poor he is on defense, but let's focus on offense...
I don't think Mike is the sort of PG this team, as its currently configured, needs. Peja cannot create his own shot; when other players are getting him looks, he is one of the best scorers in this league, but otherwise, he's ineffective.
Meanwhile, Mike is not a Steve Nash type creator. He's much more comfortable taking 20 footers than driving and dishing, and his peak playing days were when Webber was there to run pick and rolls with. We don't have that anymore, and I think his offensive style now causes problems and leads to a lot of one-on-one.
So, I think we have three options...
1) Trade Mike, find a top-notch, drive and dish creator PG, which is darn near impossible...
2) Find a Webber replacement so we can play like we used to, again, darn near impossible...
3) Trade Peja and find a superstar that can create his own shot, and create shots for Mike.
Honestly, I'm the biggest Peja fan in the world; I think the best possible option would be number 1. But, unless Petrie pulls something out of his rear end, it ain't gonna happen. Peja and Mike aren't good fits for each other, and this is no longer the type of team that can utilize Peja effectively.
I know this is convoluted, but the point basically is, we need to trade Peja because both have some serious deficiencies in their game which don't complement each other.

 

[TXSactoFan]

i have a feeling this is going to end up discussing peja and his weaknesses. i think the first post is doing just that.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ok, now see this is NOT trolling. Its a legitimate post expressing well thought put concerns and seeking responses.

And yes, it is the quandry. We have duplicative talent. Talent that used to be able to play together (although criticially Vlade could run a lot of stuff from the post to increase spacing), but at that time the Bibby/Peja shooters were being set up by supreme passers at the other positions. Bibby/Peja never really complemented each other. They were just very well complimented by the rest of the guys (and complimented th rest of the guys very well in turn).

So now here you are, you still have the complimentay shooters, but all those guys who got old, the whole core of the machine, has been ripped out.

 

[Yoda]

3) Trade Peja and find a superstar that can create his own shot, and create shots for Mike.
Honestly, I'm the biggest Peja fan in the world; I think the best possible option would be number 1. But, unless Petrie pulls something out of his rear end, it ain't gonna happen. Peja and Mike aren't good fits for each other, and this is no longer the type of team that can utilize Peja effectively.
I know this is convoluted, but the point basically is, we need to trade Peja because both have some serious deficiencies in their game which don't complement each other.

Good points.
Bibby has something that most players on the planet do not have (certainly Peja). He makes big shots. That is a commodity you just dont trade away unless you are getting that in return.

 

[sloter]

No, you don't trade Bibby, but you don't give him PT unless he plays D.

 

[Mad Iron]

I'm for option number 2. Peja can't create his own shots, and now he's not open because you don't have Webber (or anyone else) drawing double teams that leave Peja out at the arch. This means the Peja = useless on our team right now.

Bibby does a lot more driving and dishing than the original post lets on. Unfortunately Sac has so many fewer weapons now that when he drives, the defense just collapses on him and he's got nowhere to go. That's why he throws up the 20 footers a little more now. It's the only open shot he gets (when someone sets a decent pick up top).

We need a Webb replacement that can draw the double team (creating opportunities for the others), set up the pick and roll, and also takes charge and leads the team. I think that's the biggest thing we're missing right now. Bibby tries to take charge sometimes, but he doesn't get the help he needs. Webb was able to handle things himself because if he was covered, it meant someone was open and he was going to find them. And if he was open, he could make the shots.

Perfect scenario: keep Peja and Bibby. Give the entire bench (minus B. Jax) to Minnesota for KG.​

 

[bibby-the-man]

^I agree.

 

[Burrito06]

So if we trade Bibby who are we going to get at the Point. He is one of the best at his position and he has yet to even hit his prime. He will improve on D it's just that the team has to make that a priority. It's funny because once he has one bad playoff series everyone jumps on him. He had no help and was drawing the double teams. He needs a big man to compliment him. I'll give Peja credit he had a pretty good series for his standards but it seems like in the years past he downright played terrible. Once he works on his game and develops some low post moves then yeah I think he can be a force but if he keeps playing for his country in the summer he will never develop those skills since that team relies on him to just shoot the three.

 

[kings4life]

why trade bibby hes gonna be an alstar this year.i dont see peja being a all star any more.we need 2 trade peja and get something in bibby was never sayin that he wanted to be traded like peja did last summer.so he obviously had a problem being on the kings.and even if it was just cause of webber look at what he did he made us loose our best powerforword in kings history.so im saying trade peja.not bibby or miller.

 

[nbrans]

I actually think that last year did not exist for Peja. Peja was not Peja, he was bizarro Peja.

I don't know if you remember Peja in 2003-2004, but he was AWESOME, especially before CWebb came back. Easily one of the top three or four players in the league. He was a scoring machine. And he was creating his own shot as well, whether it was fadeaways or drives or just shooting over people. Yes, Vlade had a lot to do with this, but even still, Vlade didn't score those points for Peja.

If we get the 2004-2005 Peja next season then I'm all for trading him. But what if the 2003-2004 Peja shows up, or an even better Peja. It's a contract year, after all...

Another thing I'd like to say in Peja's defense. Has there ever, and I mean EVER, been a Kings player who has improved as much as he has since his first year? Give the guy some credit, when he was a rookie I remember thinking, huh, a one-dimensional jump shooter who gets destroyed on the defensive end, maybe he'll be an ok bench player someday. He's transformed himself into a legit All-Star and a solid defender. That transformation didn't just happen on its own, it happened because Peja is one of the most dedicated players in the league at improving his game. He worked really, really hard to add dimensions to his game. Give the guy some credit.

I'm not willing to go down with the ship with Peja, and I won't be sentimental about trading him if we can get someone better or he doesn't produce this year. But I also have a long memory, and I remember what I saw two seasons ago. If the Peja of 2003-2004 shows up then I'm willing to see Peja on the Kings for a long time.

 

[Padrino]

I actually think that last year did not exist for Peja. Peja was not Peja, he was bizarro Peja.

I don't know if you remember Peja in 2003-2004, but he was AWESOME, especially before CWebb came back. Easily one of the top three or four players in the league. He was a scoring machine. And he was creating his own shot as well, whether it was fadeaways or drives or just shooting over people. Yes, Vlade had a lot to do with this, but even still, Vlade didn't score those points for Peja.

If we get the 2004-2005 Peja next season then I'm all for trading him. But what if the 2003-2004 Peja shows up, or an even better Peja. It's a contract year, after all...

Another thing I'd like to say in Peja's defense. Has there ever, and I mean EVER, been a Kings player who has improved as much as he has since his first year? Give the guy some credit, when he was a rookie I remember thinking, huh, a one-dimensional jump shooter who gets destroyed on the defensive end, maybe he'll be an ok bench player someday. He's transformed himself into a legit All-Star and a solid defender. That transformation didn't just happen on its own, it happened because Peja is one of the most dedicated players in the league at improving his game. He worked really, really hard to add dimensions to his game. Give the guy some credit.

I'm not willing to go down with the ship with Peja, and I won't be sentimental about trading him if we can get someone better or he doesn't produce this year. But I also have a long memory, and I remember what I saw two seasons ago. If the Peja of 2003-2004 shows up then I'm willing to see Peja on the Kings for a long time.

i think credit has been given to peja where it has been due. the biggest concern, is, imo, this: has he improved his game enough (and is there reason to believe he will continue to do so?) to warrant the amount of money we will have to pay him at the end of next season? if the kings front office says "no" to this question, then i think we may see peja traded mid-season, if not this off season. if they decide "yes," then he'll stick around. i have reason to believe they'll say "yes" to Peja and the Big Money, though it wouldn't be my own course of action. peja is a very good player. i'm just not certain he fulfills the kings' needs at this point.

 

[VF21]

I actually think that last year did not exist for Peja. Peja was not Peja, he was bizarro Peja.

I don't know if you remember Peja in 2003-2004, but he was AWESOME, especially before CWebb came back. Easily one of the top three or four players in the league. He was a scoring machine. And he was creating his own shot as well, whether it was fadeaways or drives or just shooting over people. Yes, Vlade had a lot to do with this, but even still, Vlade didn't score those points for Peja.

If we get the 2004-2005 Peja next season then I'm all for trading him. But what if the 2003-2004 Peja shows up, or an even better Peja. It's a contract year, after all...

Another thing I'd like to say in Peja's defense. Has there ever, and I mean EVER, been a Kings player who has improved as much as he has since his first year? Give the guy some credit, when he was a rookie I remember thinking, huh, a one-dimensional jump shooter who gets destroyed on the defensive end, maybe he'll be an ok bench player someday. He's transformed himself into a legit All-Star and a solid defender. That transformation didn't just happen on its own, it happened because Peja is one of the most dedicated players in the league at improving his game. He worked really, really hard to add dimensions to his game. Give the guy some credit.

I'm not willing to go down with the ship with Peja, and I won't be sentimental about trading him if we can get someone better or he doesn't produce this year. But I also have a long memory, and I remember what I saw two seasons ago. If the Peja of 2003-2004 shows up then I'm willing to see Peja on the Kings for a long time.

Peja WAS awesome. AND he had Vlade Divac out there feeding him the ball... you can't just brush away Divac's part in the success Peja had.

Has there ever been a Kings player who improved as much as Peja?



Just because you didn't think much of him as a rookie doesn't mean he didn't have a lot of potential. Obviously people like Petrie were pretty high on him, since they brought him here and traded Corliss away to make room for him in the starting line-up.

I guess I'm just frustrated because, no matter what happens, someone always steps up to "defend" Peja. He shouldn't NEED defending.

Legitimate all-star? I don't think so. Especially if you look at the other SF's he's up against.

Good role player? Definitely. Pure shooter? Without a doubt. Future of this franchise? I don't think so, at least not without a strong presence at the 4 as some others have indicated.

You may have a long memory, but unfortunately it appears to be rather selective. Yes, Peja was good BUT it was due, in good part, to Vlade Divac and Doug Christie, both of whom are now gone...

 

[nbrans]

Peja WAS awesome. AND he had Vlade Divac out there feeding him the ball... you can't just brush away Divac's part in the success Peja had.

Has there ever been a Kings player who improved as much as Peja?



Just because you didn't think much of him as a rookie doesn't mean he didn't have a lot of potential. Obviously people like Petrie were pretty high on him, since they brought him here and traded Corliss away to make room for him in the starting line-up.

I guess I'm just frustrated because, no matter what happens, someone always steps up to "defend" Peja. He shouldn't NEED defending.

Legitimate all-star? I don't think so. Especially if you look at the other SF's he's up against.

Good role player? Definitely. Pure shooter? Without a doubt. Future of this franchise? I don't think so, at least not without a strong presence at the 4 as some others have indicated.

You may have a long memory, but unfortunately it appears to be rather selective. Yes, Peja was good BUT it was due, in good part, to Vlade Divac and Doug Christie, both of whom are now gone...

VF21, if you or I were out on the court with Vlade and Doug Christie, neither of us would score 24 points a game. Just having good passers doesn't guarantee that someone is going to be able to score points. I don't think it was due in "good part," they were just a factor. It's not like they were averaging 10 assists a game each, all to Peja. Peja was the one who had to put the ball in the hole. And of course he was a legitimate All-Star, he was the second leading scorer in the league!!

Of course there are people like me defending Peja because so many people on this board are dumping on him unnecessarily. I don't think people really appreciate what they have and are excessively negative. It's fine to believe that he's not a franchise player, but come on, trading him for 75 cents on the dollar is not an answer either.

P.S. Peja is also the one of the main keys to our offense. I'd like to see how well those backdoor cuts and high post plays would work without a deadeye shooter manning the perimeter.

 

[Yoda]

VF21, if you or I were out on the court with Vlade and Doug Christie, neither of us would score 24 points a game. Just having good passers doesn't guarantee that someone is going to be able to score points. I don't think it was due in "good part," they were just a factor. It's not like they were averaging 10 assists a game each, all to Peja. Peja was the one who had to put the ball in the hole. And of course he was a legitimate All-Star, he was the second leading scorer in the league!!

Of course there are people like me defending Peja because so many people on this board are dumping on him unnecessarily. I don't think people really appreciate what they have and are excessively negative. It's fine to believe that he's not a franchise player, but come on, trading him for 75 cents on the dollar is not an answer either.

P.S. Peja is also the one of the main keys to our offense. I'd like to see how well those backdoor cuts and high post plays would work without a deadeye shooter manning the perimeter.

Poor Peja always getting picked on. That is a tired tune. No player is defended and lifted up on this board like Peja.

 

[nbrans]

Poor Peja always getting picked on. That is a tired tune. No player is defended and lifted up on this board like Peja.

Poor pessimists, always being reminded that Peja's actually a really good player.

I think being down on Peja is a tired tune. The reason he's defended and lifted up so much is because people constantly dump on him.

It's fine to offer a reasonable assessment of Peja, but to just call him soft and a choker and this and that and the other is just really tiresome.

 

[Yoda]

Poor pessimists

huh?

 

[nbrans]

huh?

Main Entry: pes·si·mism

Pronunciation: 'pe-s&-"mi-z&m also 'pe-z&-
Function: noun
Etymology: French pessimisme, from Latin pessimus worst -- more at [size=-1]PEJORATIVE[/size]
1 : an inclination to emphasize adverse aspects, conditions, and possibilities or to expect the worst possible outcome

 

[Yoda]

What does not defending Peja have to do with pessimism...

BTW- the word you used was "pessimists"

 

[VF21]

nbrans - You've been here a couple of weeks and already you've decided you know all about those of us who have been here forever?

You can defend Peja all you like. You can act as though anyone who doesn't defend him or sing his praises is against him. It doesn't matter one whit to me.

I have been a fan of the Kings since the beginning. I have sung the praises of Peja repeatedly, especially when he was doing good and actually seemed to WANT to be a productive force on the court.

I am going to criticize him and his performance just as I would any other King who isn't doing his best. If you don't like it, I don't have a problem with that at all. What I do have a problem with, however, is you thinking you have to remind us that Peja's a really good player.

We don't need your reminders. Most of us have talked about that for YEARS. And, ironically, that's the problem. He's a really good player and it seems likely he will never really progress past that point.

As far as comparing the hypothetical performance of a couple of people on a message board to an NBA athlete, that's just silly. If you didn't see how much Doug and Vlade contributed to Peja's success (and Webber's BTW - look back at 2002 and 2003 if you don't believe me), then either you didn't see many games or you weren't paying attention.

Peja is soft. Peja has choked more than once (*cough*airballs in critical games*cough*). Peja is no different than any other player on this or any other NBA team. He's open to the same criticisms, etc.

It isn't tiresome that he's criticized. What's tiresome is that he was the golden boy for so long, immune to criticism.

 

[Hezi]

why to trade peja? he and mike bibby and boby jackson has the best players of the team, i don't think to trade peja....
he the best shooter 3pt on the NBA in SF position...i don't know any player who can shoot better....
so peja need to stay....

 

[nbrans]

nbrans - You've been here a couple of weeks and already you've decided you know all about those of us who have been here forever?

You can defend Peja all you like. You can act as though anyone who doesn't defend him or sing his praises is against him. It doesn't matter one whit to me.

I have been a fan of the Kings since the beginning. I have sung the praises of Peja repeatedly, especially when he was doing good and actually seemed to WANT to be a productive force on the court.

I am going to criticize him and his performance just as I would any other King who isn't doing his best. If you don't like it, I don't have a problem with that at all. What I do have a problem with, however, is you thinking you have to remind us that Peja's a really good player.

We don't need your reminders. Most of us have talked about that for YEARS. And, ironically, that's the problem. He's a really good player and it seems likely he will never really progress past that point.

As far as comparing the hypothetical performance of a couple of people on a message board to an NBA athlete, that's just silly. If you didn't see how much Doug and Vlade contributed to Peja's success (and Webber's BTW - look back at 2002 and 2003 if you don't believe me), then either you didn't see many games or you weren't paying attention.

Peja is soft. Peja has choked more than once (*cough*airballs in critical games*cough*). Peja is no different than any other player on this or any other NBA team. He's open to the same criticisms, etc.

It isn't tiresome that he's criticized. What's tiresome is that he was the golden boy for so long, immune to criticism.

I'm terribly sorry, VF21, that I haven't been posting on this board for twenty years and therefore don't enjoy the golden status that such a legacy bestows. I guess you're right, you have to have been posting for several years in order to defend a player or have any valid opinion about the team or a reasonable response to people's opinion on this board.

I think it's fair for me to criticize people who I think are excessively negative, and I really don't understand all the blanket criticizing that's going on. I think people have short memories and are letting one mediocre season stand in for Peja the player, and yet everyone is still also living in the Bibby=clutch era. Bibby's pretty much a sacred cow on this board, but I don't really hear people talking about how he took a major dump in the playoffs this year.

Sure, criticize Peja all you want, but don't get all pissed off and high and mighty with people who rise to his defense.

 

[LA King Fan II]

I may be a contrarian, but Bibby and Peja's and Miller's defense is not the problem. Sorry for being repetitive, but Bibby and Peja (and Miller for that matter) would be fine with the help of a muscular 6'6 guard (Wells, a young Christie, or Martin/Garcia on steroids) and a big athletic stud (better than Skinner) to help near the hoop.

All the defensive criticism became appropriate only when Webber lost his legs and we lost Divac. Before then we had the big guard and the big bodies (Pollard understood position help defense much better than others we've tried since).

I think mentioning the airball was a "cheap shot". His ankle was off - he'd missed the whole series, and his team was slowly choking away its chance at the line.

Let's hope a little harder.

 

[AleksandarN]

It isn't tiresome that he's criticized. What's tiresome is that he was the golden boy for so long, immune to criticism.

Hmmm.........
interesting

 

[Bricklayer]

Poor pessimists, always being reminded that Peja's actually a really good player.

I think being down on Peja is a tired tune. The reason he's defended and lifted up so much is because people constantly dump on him.

It's fine to offer a reasonable assessment of Peja, but to just call him soft and a choker and this and that and the other is just really tiresome.

There are many "real good players". That does not mean they all have to be kept forever, it is not mutually exclusive with being Charmin soft, and it does not mean they have either the heart or the game to be a champion (indeed the closest we ever got, we did it without him).

And each and EVERY one of those criticisms can legitimately be laid at the feet of this particular "very good player" no matter how often you sternly admonish. Save your indignation for the first poster who a) suggests Peja should be dumped for cap room; b) starts blaming Peja for why Mike can't get open or Brad can't shut down the lane; or c) suggests they do not care about whether it makes us better or worse, they just want Peja gone.

As it is we have a "real good player" with gaping holes in his game, major questions about his toughness (actually more or less resolved in the negative) and who hasn't significantly improved in 5 years. His favorite players and handholders are all gone. He is set to get a MASSIVE contract extension that pays him like a superstar in a year. And meanwhile the team around him has changed and deteriorated. You can gasp and gape all you want at the indignity of a "real good player" being suggested as a trading piece to get another "real good player" or even a VERY good player, but any basketball mind worth the title would at least consider the possibility given the situation.

 

[VF21]

I'm terribly sorry, VF21, that I haven't been posting on this board for twenty years and therefore don't enjoy the golden status that such a legacy bestows. I guess you're right, you have to have been posting for several years in order to defend a player or have any valid opinion about the team or a reasonable response to people's opinion on this board.

I think it's fair for me to criticize people who I think are excessively negative, and I really don't understand all the blanket criticizing that's going on. I think people have short memories and are letting one mediocre season stand in for Peja the player, and yet everyone is still also living in the Bibby=clutch era. Bibby's pretty much a sacred cow on this board, but I don't really hear people talking about how he took a major dump in the playoffs this year.

Sure, criticize Peja all you want, but don't get all pissed off and high and mighty with people who rise to his defense.

(AleksanderN - I'm sorry for that one comment. It was frustration speaking more than anything else.)

nbrans - I think you're missing the point. A lot of us, who have been here a long time, have been talking about Peja for a long time. We haven't always been this critical of him. Over the years, however, we have - for a variety of reasons - become more critical because he just doesn't seem to fit as well as we first thought.

I'm not pissed off. I'm just frustrated because you seem to be arguing without knowing the background - and that's not fair to either of us.

If you want to dump on Bibby to make Peja look better, I'm not going to argue with you. It's not about that, for me at least. Bibby did everything he could and more - before he simply ran out of gas. I don't hold the playoffs against him or ANY King, because of all the other things that happened.

So feel free to continue to defend Peja. That is, of course, your right...just as it's my right to have become a little disappointed that a player with SO much potential hasn't lived up to it, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Bottom line is that I want ALL the players to do their best, to live up to their potential, to be the players we need them to be. I root for the name on the front before the name on the back.

I feel sorry for Peja because he's become the focus now of a lot of frustration on the part of Kings fans. And at least a part of it he's brought on himself. I hope he can come back this year, focused and ready to be the ultimate player we so desperately want and need him to be. If that happens, I'll be cheering for him as loudly as I've cheered for any other King.

LA Kings Fan II - Peja has made more than one air ball at critical times. That wasn't my point. My point was that some of the criticisms being argued are based in fact. They aren't just pulled out of thin air.

At this point, I'm out of this. I mean no offense to some of our newer members whatsoever, but it's almost impossible to discuss Peja with them because they don't know what's happened on this board over the past few years. It's not their fault, of course, but they are misinterpreting current comments because they don't know the past comments. And, because of that, things are becoming more heated than I think they would if all those old threads hadn't been lost in the Kingsfans disaster of 2004.

Peace..

 

[D-Mass]

Honestly, this post has grown tiresome...moving on...

 

[sloter]

Bibby did everything he could and more - before he simply ran out of gas.

This is one thing I have to disagree with. Bibby played pretty well on offense, although he had several games where his shooting was very very poor (in fact game 1 was lost pretty much only because he was somewhere else), and he was pretty weak on D, so weak that I am inclined to say that Ridnour had more effect on the series outcome than he did. And that, in my opinion, is faaaar from Bibby at his best.

 

[VF21]

He was also playing on a bad wheel, remember?

I'm not saying Bibby was perfect. Far from it. I just didn't see the need to try and bring Bibby down as part of an effort to build Peja up. It just wasn't relevant IMHO...

 

[Bricklayer]

This is one thing I have to disagree with. Bibby played pretty well on offense, although he had several games where his shooting was very very poor (in fact game 1 was lost pretty much only because he was somewhere else), and he was pretty weak on D, so weak that I am inclined to say that Ridnour had more effect on the series outcome than he did. And that, in my opinion, is faaaar from Bibby at his best.

Not sure about the context of VF21's quote, but I think she might have meant ran out of gas in the regular season and was on fumes therafter. Certainly seemed that after that tremendous month in February that post-trade Mike came out and tried to carry the enormous load of holding together and leading a scrambling team of strangers, was great for a week or two after the trade, and then just looked like it was too much and exhaustion kicked in. I briefly had hope there that Mike was going to be able to take that next step up to the level of guys who can carry their team night in and night out, but was not to be. A valiant effort, but its why Mike is Mike, and a borderline/no-time All-Star, and the KGs and LeBrons of the world are jsut operating on another plane.

 

[KKSloga]

I'm terribly sorry, VF21, that I haven't been posting on this board for twenty years and therefore don't enjoy the golden status that such a legacy bestows. I guess you're right, you have to have been posting for several years in order to defend a player or have any valid opinion about the team or a reasonable response to people's opinion on this board.

I think it's fair for me to criticize people who I think are excessively negative, and I really don't understand all the blanket criticizing that's going on. I think people have short memories and are letting one mediocre season stand in for Peja the player, and yet everyone is still also living in the Bibby=clutch era. Bibby's pretty much a sacred cow on this board, but I don't really hear people talking about how he took a major dump in the playoffs this year.

Sure, criticize Peja all you want, but don't get all pissed off and high and mighty with people who rise to his defense.

I take back what I said in another post. This guy is awsome and basically does not give a rats *ss about how long someone has been around because that does not make you more intelligent or more privelaged to post here. Just to defend Pedja a little after Webber was traded and Pedja still had nagging injuries he still managed to average 23 pts per game and shoot around 47% from the field. If he was so one dimensional he could never do that and if he relied so much on Divac and Christie then he would have put up 12-15 pts per game. Everyone always makes the argument that Pedja relied so much on Divac and Christie. Yeah, no sh*t, those were the guys he played with - who else was he supposed to catch passes from. Was he supposed to grab the ball and go listen guys your passes have been nice but I am going to work on going 1 on 1 without your help so please get out of my way. He did not do that because he is a TEAM player.