Bibby playing well, though Kings aren't

bperiod · Jan 27, 2006

Sorry if this was already posted...I have been saying this alot...nobody gives Mike the credit he deserves...he is BALLIN' and I'm glad somebody noticed!

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2006-01-27-west-notes_x.htm

West notes: Bibby playing well, though Kings aren't
By David DuPree, USA TODAY
Mike Bibby is used to being overlooked. He's never been known to be a flashy player, never been in the All-Star Game and seldom is his name mentioned when the NBA's top shooters are discussed.

Mike Bibby (10) is averaging a career-high 21.2 points per game this season for the struggling Kings.

By Brian Myrick, AP
But the Sacramento Kings point guard is quietly having perhaps his best season, even though his performance has been overshadowed by his team's losing record and the recent hoopla over the Ron Artest-Peja Stojakovic trade.
Bibby is averaging a career-high 21.2 points a game. Over the last seven games, he has been a scoring machine, averaging 30.6 points, scoring 40 or more three times. More important, the Kings won four of those games.
"He's made big shot after big shot," coach Rick Adelman said. "With the injuries and everything else, Mike and Brad (Miller) have to be the two guys who are constant for us."
Bibby, though he handles the ball much of the time and is averaging 5.6 assists, is also one of the best in the league at moving without the basketball.
"When you think he's not in the play, he's in the play," the Orlando Magic's Jameer Nelson said after Bibby scored what was then his career-high 42 against them two weeks ago. "He's always moving."
Bibby set a new high Tuesday with 44 against the Philadelphia 76ers.

bigbadred00 · Jan 27, 2006

He's doing his job, now if the rest of the team would ^^. Hopefully Ronnie plays tonight. If not, Celtics aren't exactly "full-handed" although they are favored.

atxrocker · Jan 27, 2006

I am glad that Mike is playing well, especially after his slump earlier in the season. I really hope that Bibby/Artest turns into something special.

mcsluggo · Jan 27, 2006

He is doing his job in one facet of the game, and at one end of the court (scoring).

AriesMar27 · Jan 27, 2006

well arent the celtics playing without their new guys tonight? no wally or kandiman and their old players davis and blount obviously are gone as well. they will be even more short handed than we are....

VF21 · Jan 27, 2006

Don't underestimate the emotional factor of the Celtics playing short-handed at home. They still have Paul Pierce and as long as they do, the Kings better be on their toes IMHO.

Bballkingsrock · Jan 27, 2006

I think this is WAY too easy of a game. Ron Artest with hte Kings are going to make some turnovers, but I am guessing a 15 pt win!

West_Gunslinger16 · Jan 27, 2006

My good Lord! He's not playing a 30-point performance game today! What's with you Bibby!!!!! Wake up!!!!!

vladetomiller · Jan 27, 2006

Also take a look at the number of shots he is taking to get those points, and add to that the fact that he plays only one end of the floor. there is reason he is not considered an elite player, I will still say that apart from that WCF show he hasnt produced anything to warrant an all star treatment or all star pay.

so much being talked about the points output last 5 games the shooting % is

LAL - 44%
ORL - 36
MIA - 37
PHI - 68
NYK - 46

and shooting only 44 % for the year. That is very low for a one dimensional player and his assists are only at 5.6 with 2.5 turnovers

bperiod · Jan 28, 2006

Gimme a break! Mike Bibby is the only clutch player this team has. He was not brought here to be a superstar, he was brought here to be a complimentary player. He's been forced into the position as #1 scorer...and I think he has stepped up....MORE than Peja ever did. When called upon he has ice in his veins. No airballs to tie/win games with wide open looks in game 7's! This forum is full of complainers...YES he was WAY off last night. But he has been carrying us lately, and should be recognized for that.

bperiod · Jan 28, 2006

Whew! Sorry...that all just came out.

Circa_1985_Fan · Jan 28, 2006

bperiod said:

Gimme a break! Mike Bibby is the only clutch player this team has. He was not brought here to be a superstar, he was brought here to be a complimentary player. He's been forced into the position as #1 scorer...and I think he has stepped up....MORE than Peja ever did. When called upon he has ice in his veins. No airballs to tie/win games with wide open looks in game 7's! This forum is full of complainers...YES he was WAY off last night. But he has been carrying us lately, and should be recognized for that.

now THAT is freaking gospel!

playmaker0017 · Jan 28, 2006

bperiod said:

Really?

It's interesting that, statistically, he's shooting 36% in the final 5 minutes of games closer than 5 points. Well below his average. That doesn't seem clutch to me.

Meanwhile, Bonzi is shooting 58% and Reef is shooting 57% in the same situations. (both up from their averages, although Bonzi's is SIGNIFICANTLY higher)

On the flip side, Peja was 8.3% (no kidding) and Miller at 21%.

Although, adding fuel to the Reef/Thomas fire ... Thomas is shooting 87% in that same time. Although, I'm not sure how often he's actually been in that situation ...

I'm not so sure he was "forced". Bibby enjoys being a volume shooter rather than a playmaker, in my opinion. He gets that little grin when he's scoring ... never any other time.

He did that ... but he's not this year.

I was more impressed with Bibby last night than any other night this year. He actually exerted effort on both ends.

A lot of guys in this league can score 20 on 17 shots when they aren't playing a lick of defense. Last night he showed that he was capable of playing with energy on both ends.

I'll let the shooting issue go when he is playing hard.

That's true. Without Bibby playing the way he has been ... we'd be in REAL trouble.

bcfy · Jan 28, 2006

vladetomiller said:

actually not many PG shoots 44% in this league, especially those average more than 20 points a game...
and the other thing is, his doesn't turnover as often as many other PG (let say nash average 4.3 turnover per game).....consider 1 turnover can lead to 4-6 points exchange...I would rather see him has 1 fewer turnover than having 1 more assist

yes, maybe he is not a superstar, but i have no doubt that he is among the very best PG group in this league...he is right near, if not at the same level, as guys like Nash, Kid or Billups. I think we should be more than grateful to have this guy in our team (consider we only gave up J.Williams, who hasn't really established himself anywhere close to the "all-star" level)

VF21 · Jan 28, 2006

bperiod said:

Great coimments...and I'm glad you said them.

People seem awfully quick to turn on Mike whenever he has any kind of off-night. During the Knicks game, Grant and Jerry both mentioned that Mike is still having some problems with his back, the kinds of things that only rest and time will take care of. I've fallen on my tail bone before; I know how much it hurts and how easy it is to reaggravate it.

But I'm not going to make excuses for Mike. I don't think he needs them. This "blood in the water" attitude some people have towards the members of our team has become so prevalent that it's almost embarrassing. Thanks for stepping up and "telling it like it is."

playmaker0017 · Jan 28, 2006

bcfy said:

Well, not many POINT GUARDS average 20+ PPG ... mainly because, at least in my opinion, the job of a PG is to initiate the offense and not score points.

But, let's look:

Parker ..... 19.2 .... 54.4%
Nash ..... 19.1 .... 47.9%
James ..... 17.1 .... 47.7%
Iverson ..... 33.2 .... 45%
Parker ..... 19.0 .... 45%
Bibby ..... 21.1 .... 43.7%

He's also averaging 2+ more shots than anyone on that list other than Iverson.

He's become a volume shooter.

He also doesn't have very many assists, either. If you are a stat lover, like I am, and believe it is a PGs job to set up other players, like I do, it paints an ugly picture.

17th in the league per game and 27th per 48 (of all PGs on pace for 70 games and 400 assists). That's not that good.

So - while he may not have many turnovers ... he also isn't getting many assists. He's 27th of all PGs in the league in Assist to Turnover.

Although, assists aren't the be all end all to determining whether a player is setting up his teammates, in my opinion. But, I think it is a warning light ... kind of like a "CHECK OIL" light in your car.

Wow! That IS a BOLD statement!

Nash: 19PPG (47.9%/42%), 11.5APG, 4.5RPG, (RECORD: 28-15; +5.7)
Kidd: 14.9 (42.6%/36.2%), 7.9APG, 7.1RPG (RECORD: 22-19; +8.5)
Billups: 19.5PPG (43.3%/43.8%), 8.6APG, 3.2RPG (RECORD: 36-5; +13.6)

Bibby: 20.8 (43.7%/38.5%), 5.6APG, 3.0RPG (RECORD: 18-25; +3.4)

Plus, all those guys at least TRY defensively. May not be great (Nash), but they typically exert effort.

The difference between Bibby and the rest is that the other players actually make the team better by being on the floor. Look at the +/- at the end ... Bibby's is the worst of all our starters.

That's why I've been defending Bibby's performance last night - despite his poor shooting. He looked to try to get the ball to other players and he played on BOTH ends of the floor. It was the best I've seen Bibby play in a while ... at least in my opinion ... regardless of how he shot. Why? Because he's a good enough shooter to not worry about his offense for a night and allow him the credit of playing good defense and hustle.

playmaker0017 · Jan 28, 2006

VF21 said:

I'm with VF21 on this ...

people do seem to be like circling sharks around here. One sniff of mediocrity and it's off with their head.

It's not just Bibby. People will annoint a new "King" (pardon the pun) every so often and the moment they struggle they bring out the hatred.

Focus on the positive last night - Bibby played defense and played it well. If we can get that effort out of him every night, our record could easily flip quickly. His shot WILL fall. The question is whether the defensive intensity will stick! I hope it does!

I've been hard on Mike in the past, and at times in this thread ... and I apologize if it comes across condescending or vicious to anyone. It's not meant to be. I'm just showing the stats and discussing them. I'm not playing the superior game here - at all. I'm just showing my view and why I feel the way I do, nothing more.

Dime Dropper · Jan 28, 2006

playmaker0017 said:

I'm sick of hearing this statement (not meaning offense to anyone). There are two types of PG. They are A) Pass-First PG's and B)Scoring PG's. No one can deny this, that's just how it is. Bibby is a scoring PG. Also, how can you expect him to get many assists when the offense runs throught Brad alot of the time? We are extremely lucky to have a PG like Bibby (despite his bad defense, which wouldn't look so bad if he had someone to block shots inside). Anyone that thinks we should trade him seriously needs to look at how many teams are are alot worse off than us. I, for one, am delighted to have Mike. If we had a superstar he would be a perfect role player. He is the least of our problems. Ask yourself this:Is there anyone else on the Kings team that could have carried us the way Mike did?

Playmaker, this is not aimed at you, its for the people that think we should trade him and get on his *** after every bad game. And, like you said, I'm not trying to be vicious or offending either. Sorry if anyone took offense.

playmaker0017 · Jan 28, 2006

dime dropper said:

No offense taken.

But, I agree. There are two types of PGs.

For the most part, to me, it is broken down like this:
A) Pass First (successful)
B) Me First (unsuccessful)

The only way I can see the "Me First" PG being successful is either they are SUPREMELY talented (Iverson) or they have a system and other players in place to handle the distribution responsibility (old Sacramento).

That's why I mentioned above that assists are not always indicative of distributing the ball. For instance, I could be a millionaire for the number of times Reef set up a play, passed out and the ball was swung to the open man. It was Reef that set it up -- but someone else gets the assist. This happens to everyone. It's not hockey.

BUT---

In Bibby's case, I rarely see him breaking his man down and creating for someone else. I see him make a lot of poor decisions when he runs the fast break, normally in the vain so that he gets the shot rather than someone else. (and a lot of times it works, but it doesn't make it the smart move)

In my opinion, this is man-up time for Bibby. This team is no longer comprised of the players to excel in the P.Offense. Bibby is going to have to become more of a distributor, in my opinion. I KNOW he can do it. I saw him do it in Vancouver ... he used to get 8+ APG.

There are exactly 5 teams with a worse record than us.

Yes. Despite his lack of success, Reef as a primary option on offense has navigated worse teams to similar records.

Not that I am taking anything away from Bibby's admirable scoring over this stretch. He's been a god-send.

But, again, I was more impressed last night at his defense than I was at him scoring 44 in Philly. I think if he plays defense like he did last night ... his scoring will eventually take care of itself.

bibbinator · Jan 28, 2006

Sometimes it looks like Bibby and Brad are trying to win the games for us on their own. That will work for a little while, but they'll get tired before the playoffs.

Unfortunately we haven't been able to win games without killer efforts from Bibby. Hopefully Artest, Bonzi and Reef will take the pressure off. I'll bet Artest showing up has given a psychic boost to help Bonzi return. If you're going to play as hard as he does it's got to be a morale booster to have a hard charger like Artest on the court with you.

Dime Dropper · Jan 28, 2006

playmaker0017 said:

No offense taken.

But, I agree. There are two types of PGs.

For the most part, to me, it is broken down like this:
A) Pass First (successful)
B) Me First (unsuccessful)

The only way I can see the "Me First" PG being successful is either they are SUPREMELY talented (Iverson) or they have a system and other players in place to handle the distribution responsibility (old Sacramento).

That's why I mentioned above that assists are not always indicative of distributing the ball. For instance, I could be a millionaire for the number of times Reef set up a play, passed out and the ball was swung to the open man. It was Reef that set it up -- but someone else gets the assist. This happens to everyone. It's not hockey.

BUT---

In Bibby's case, I rarely see him breaking his man down and creating for someone else. I see him make a lot of poor decisions when he runs the fast break, normally in the vain so that he gets the shot rather than someone else. (and a lot of times it works, but it doesn't make it the smart move)

In my opinion, this is man-up time for Bibby. This team is no longer comprised of the players to excel in the P.Offense. Bibby is going to have to become more of a distributor, in my opinion. I KNOW he can do it. I saw him do it in Vancouver ... he used to get 8+ APG.

There are exactly 5 teams with a worse record than us.

Yes. Despite his lack of success, Reef as a primary option on offense has navigated worse teams to similar records.

Not that I am taking anything away from Bibby's admirable scoring over this stretch. He's been a god-send.

But, again, I was more impressed last night at his defense than I was at him scoring 44 in Philly. I think if he plays defense like he did last night ... his scoring will eventually take care of itself.

I cant argue with what you say because I haven't seen one Kings game this year

. I was just going by what I know. And I didn't mean look at what teams are worse off than us, I didn't word it correctly. I meant look at all the teams that would happily trade there PG straight up for ours, so I think we're lucky. Its very frustrating not being able to see your team play. This board is all I have really. I cant go by game-situations that I've saw, I have to go by stats and what I know.

playmaker0017 · Jan 28, 2006

dime dropper said:

That's too bad that you can't watch games.

Even though I do - I'm just stating my opinion. I'm no analyst ... so, trust me my word isn't near gospel.

Bibby has talent. There is no question. If he wants to exert himself on both ends now that we have Artest --- he'd have my vote for being a top-tier PG.

Like I said - opinions are like bumholes ... and everyone's stinks except to their respect owners.

A lot of what I say or post is just to talk or to help back up my opinion ... which isn't necessarily correct or even close to the truth. It's just one man's frustrated attempt at making sanity of why his boy is always losing.

Padrino · Jan 28, 2006

bibbinator said:

in all honesty, before the artest acquisition, who else was there? peja was injured half the time, and hardly showing up when he did play. reef and bonzi were major contributors early on, but have since been fighting injuries. martin and garcia are improving, but are still inconsistent. thomas is only effective when he starts, and even then, he's sketchy. who else is there? when bonzi returns, and artest settles, the kings will be much better off, but the #8 seed will become more elusive the longer it takes for the kings to develop some togetherness and consisitency.

the ideal situation, imo, would be for the kings to miss the playoffs, get a solid draft pick, and take the extended offseason to re-sign wells and get healthy, while hopefully pursuing the defensive PF we desperately need. then they can have an entire training camp together, and be ready for some serious playoff contention. lotsa factors involved in that "ideal situation," tho, so i can only say that it will be interesting to see what happens.

nbrans · Jan 28, 2006

I think Bibby started taking more shots simply because he had to. He needed to become a volume shooter (which is an accurate term, in my opinion) because the offense has been so stagnant. But then, the offense is stagnant because Bibby is looking first for his shot. It's a vicious cycle.

I don't think the offense is particularly effective when Bibby is looking for his scoring (unless it's one of his unconscious nights) because he doesn't shoot a high percentage, and because when he decides to start taking more shots he often just comes down the court, dribbles past a screen and launches a jump shot. No one else is involved in the possession and he rarely gets a good shot.

Now that the Kings have a viable scoring option in Artest I really hope Bibby starts taking less shots and focuses on penetrating, playmaking and distributing. Everyone needs to touch the ball and get good looks. The overall offense is better that way.

playmaker0017 · Jan 28, 2006

nbrans said:

We've HAD a viable scoring option in Reef. I keep stumming the same string on my one not guitar, but it's true.

Reef is still the only player on this roster to score 20PPG. I understood Peja.

Personally, I think this team needs a strategic change in how the offense is balanced.

Reef/Artest should be, in my opinion, the focal points with Bibby and Miller feeding off them when they either get doubled or get into trouble. Bonzi is the garbage man and played his best ball when he wasn't trying to score but rather was cleaning up mistakes.

But, that's just my thought... and it's biased dammit!

KevinMartin'sShotDoctor · Jan 28, 2006

playmaker0017 said:

You might be on to something there.
As for Bibby's accomplishments, I've always assumed that it was the Kings offense that kept his assist totals low. He was a good playmaker when he played for Vancou-phis.
As for the comparison from earlier:
"Parker ..... 19.2 .... 54.4%
Nash ..... 19.1 .... 47.9%
James ..... 17.1 .... 47.7%
Iverson ..... 33.2 .... 45%
Parker (Billups?) ..... 19.0 .... 45%
Bibby ..... 21.1 .... 43.7%"

--Parker is fined by Popovich when he takes a three-pointer. He leads the lead in points in the paint. The paint's probably more open because of Duncan and Ginobili. He's a great player, but he has more brain freezes on the court than Peja, Bibby, Miller and Hart combined.
--Nash's percentage is impressive. Teammates and the offense up the points. Maybe he plays the running game better than Bibby, but they're similar in that they're both fantastic shooters and limited athletes.
--James: Mike James? Let's be fair to Bibby; Mike James is having a career year.
--Iverson is superhuman and it's unfair to compare anyone to him.
--Billups plays like Bibby in the '02 playoffs almost daily. He can finish near the basket with more flair, but take away Richard Hamilton and I figure their stats would be the same (i.e. three fewer assists).
--Bibby's a great player, though ideally a complementary one. His percentages are remarkable, given that I think I went two years without seeing Bibby making a layup.

VF21 · Jan 28, 2006

playmaker0017 said:

Shareef MIGHT be a valid option when his bleeping jaw isn't wired shut. You keep acting as though he's being intentionally slighted and that if he just had the ball more he would be leading this team to the promised land.

Shareef still has a wired jaw. He's lost weight; he's lost conditioning; it was pretty much heart that even kept him out there for the time he played against Boston. I don't understand how you can't see that.

Yes, SAR might just be a powerful post presence and a new go-to guy ONCE he's able to play at anything close to full strength again. But, jeez. Right now, for you to keep strumming that same guitar string just gets tedious...

And hello? I think we already knew that you're biased.

Bricklayer · Jan 28, 2006

Reef used to be able to score 20ppg for lottery teams. That's all we know about him.

I'll hitch my wagon to the guys who have actually won something, thanks.

playmaker0017 · Jan 28, 2006

VF21 said:

No, don't get me wrong - right now I think it's almost a mistake for him to be playing.

It's before that I have issues with. He was averaging 10-11 shots. That's awful for a player of his caliber.

I never was fond of HOW we got our shots and WHAT shots we did take. Jumper after jumper. It looks good one night and the next you get slaughtered.

We also take quick/long shots with no one under the basket ... which drives me nuts.

I do. I do see that.

If Reef were taking 15-16 shots a game right now, in his state, I'd think Adleman was crazy.

Am I that transparent?

playmaker0017 · Jan 28, 2006

Bricklayer said:

Well, right now Bibby is scoring 20+ for a lotto team. Hitch away.

Vlade/Webber/Peja won before Bibby and won with Bibby. Bibby didn't MAKE the Kings.

It's not about HITCHING A WAGON! It's a team game! Bibby/Reef/Artest/Miller/Bonzi & the rest of the guys ... it's a team.

I just don't think that the distribution has been right and our selection has been off.

Is Reef the savior? No.
Is Ron Artest? Doubtful.
It certainly isn't Bibby right now.
It probably isn't going to be Miller or Bonzi.

We need to play as a team.

I wouldn't hitch my wagon to ANY of these players individually.

Bibby playing well, though Kings aren't

G-League

Starter

Starter

Starter

AriesMar27

Guest

Super Moderator Emeritus

All-Star

West_Gunslinger16

Guest

Bench

G-League

G-League

All-Star

playmaker0017

Guest

G-League

Super Moderator Emeritus

playmaker0017

Guest

playmaker0017

Guest

All-Star

playmaker0017

Guest

Bench

All-Star

playmaker0017

Guest

All-Star

All-Star

playmaker0017

Guest

G-League

Super Moderator Emeritus

Don't Make Me Use The Bat

playmaker0017

Guest

playmaker0017

Guest