Bibby playing well, though Kings aren't
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The reigning league mvp became the mvp by default and to some extent because of his teams regular season record. That award had as much to do with the coach as it had to do with nash himself.
Bibby on the other hand is not setting up his teammates, maybe because of the system he plays in, but when you talk about defense bibby is one of the worst in the league. He doesnt even care and thats the problem, nash is not a great athlete and he is not a great defender but he atleast tries or gives us the perception that he tries. As someone pointed out here, whenever bibby scores he feels happy and that is very evident, he doesnt seem to be that happy when he sets up his teammates, that wide mouth holler he gives happens only after a 3 and never after his teammates hit a shot or after he set up someone for a dunk.
Bibby was traded for JW and he was an upgrade in that way, but the deals they both signed are different and my grudge is that he is not earning the big bucks that he is paid, he is just an average player who is getting superstar salary and that hurts the kings chances of being a champ. I dont think opposing teams prepare for bibby like they prepare for superstars such as Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kobe, TMac or the pistons this year.
Bibby on the other hand is not setting up his teammates, maybe because of the system he plays in, but when you talk about defense bibby is one of the worst in the league. He doesnt even care and thats the problem, nash is not a great athlete and he is not a great defender but he atleast tries or gives us the perception that he tries. As someone pointed out here, whenever bibby scores he feels happy and that is very evident, he doesnt seem to be that happy when he sets up his teammates, that wide mouth holler he gives happens only after a 3 and never after his teammates hit a shot or after he set up someone for a dunk.
Bibby was traded for JW and he was an upgrade in that way, but the deals they both signed are different and my grudge is that he is not earning the big bucks that he is paid, he is just an average player who is getting superstar salary and that hurts the kings chances of being a champ. I dont think opposing teams prepare for bibby like they prepare for superstars such as Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kobe, TMac or the pistons this year.
I'm sorry, but average players don't score 21.2 points a game, average 30.6 over 7 straight games and go for over 40 three times. If it weren't for Bibby this team might be winless. He's been carrying this team on his back all year. He's been a very good clutch shooter ever since coming to Sactown. The guy has ice in his veins and has never been afraid to take the big shot. I don't know why people are attacking him, but I think they're barking up the wrong tree.
Yes Bibby is a skilled player. Yes he WANTS the ball in crunch time (something sorely lacking in Kings players). When he is hot, it is a thing of beauty.
However...
Look at the other shoot first pg teams in the league. How successful are they? Even if you have a shoot first pg with the incredible skill AND quicks of an AI or a Starburry, it doesn't work that well. THe shoot-first pg's shining moments come at the expense of good teamwork, and his team-mates. This is a general observation-- not specifically dishing on Bibby. When the Kings had Christie acting as defacto pg AND vlade and Webber also setting thing up the way they do, the Kings didn't suffer from Bibby being primarily a shooter. He just brought the ball up the court (sometimes) and then passed off to someone else to initiate (usually). Now the kings don't have any of those other options. THAT is when it becmes a problem. That is when it becomes a starburry or AI type of stagnant offense. Y'know, I think Nash's shot is just as good as bibby's (BOTH are things of beauty), but he allows his shooting to become secondary to his playmaking. THat is important for a pg (unless you have the freakishly composed teams the kings had in the past)
Second, his D downright sucks. No one can argue that. AND it sucks more than it has to. Yes, he is slow for his position (his talent comes from pure skill, not athleticism), but he is a poor defender even for his athleticism. THat is inexcusable.
Bibby is a damn good player. That doesn't mean he doesn't have flaws. And in his case, his worst flaws are things that SHOULD be corectable. THAT is frustrating. I personally was annoyed that peja (and Christie back in his day) were so pathetic in crunch time, but what are you gonna do about that? its not something that is correctable just by wanting it to happen, they were what they were. They didn't WANT to be deer in the headlights, they just were (although Christie magically shed it toward the end of his tenure here-- maybe peja still has a chance
). Miller not being able to jump over a banana slug is the same thing: what are you gonna do, it is what it is.
BIBBY'S troubles are to some extent correctable just by his actually WANTING to do it. DO IT! I still like him as a king, and want him to stay here, but DO IT dammit!
However...
Look at the other shoot first pg teams in the league. How successful are they? Even if you have a shoot first pg with the incredible skill AND quicks of an AI or a Starburry, it doesn't work that well. THe shoot-first pg's shining moments come at the expense of good teamwork, and his team-mates. This is a general observation-- not specifically dishing on Bibby. When the Kings had Christie acting as defacto pg AND vlade and Webber also setting thing up the way they do, the Kings didn't suffer from Bibby being primarily a shooter. He just brought the ball up the court (sometimes) and then passed off to someone else to initiate (usually). Now the kings don't have any of those other options. THAT is when it becmes a problem. That is when it becomes a starburry or AI type of stagnant offense. Y'know, I think Nash's shot is just as good as bibby's (BOTH are things of beauty), but he allows his shooting to become secondary to his playmaking. THat is important for a pg (unless you have the freakishly composed teams the kings had in the past)
Second, his D downright sucks. No one can argue that. AND it sucks more than it has to. Yes, he is slow for his position (his talent comes from pure skill, not athleticism), but he is a poor defender even for his athleticism. THat is inexcusable.
Bibby is a damn good player. That doesn't mean he doesn't have flaws. And in his case, his worst flaws are things that SHOULD be corectable. THAT is frustrating. I personally was annoyed that peja (and Christie back in his day) were so pathetic in crunch time, but what are you gonna do about that? its not something that is correctable just by wanting it to happen, they were what they were. They didn't WANT to be deer in the headlights, they just were (although Christie magically shed it toward the end of his tenure here-- maybe peja still has a chance
). Miller not being able to jump over a banana slug is the same thing: what are you gonna do, it is what it is. BIBBY'S troubles are to some extent correctable just by his actually WANTING to do it. DO IT! I still like him as a king, and want him to stay here, but DO IT dammit!
it's very very sad, but if you look at the records closely.....
when bibby shoots more (20+ shots) and score more (25+ points)...we win most of the games..
when bibby makes more assists but shoot less, we actually lose more...
I think this is enough to explain why this guy become "shoot-first-pg", becasue he is asked to do that, and he actually needs to do that...
yes i love his passing game more than his shooting game...but in terms of passing, we have Brad to do that (again...sad)...but in terms of scoring, i am sorry, Bibby is the only reliablie guy (not sure about Artest) so far....if Bibby's shooting will lead to W, I don't see why he should shoot less...
now we have Artest, and Wells will be back someday, and SAR will get healthy....I am sure by then Bibby will shoot lesser and score lesser(if you want to satisfy Artest's 30 shots per game demand)...but that doesn't mean his assists will be higher than now.....why? Let's think of it:
bibby pass to Wells, Wells work on his post up game =>no assist for bibby
bibby pass to Artest, who work on his post up game =>no assist for bibby
bibby pass to SAR, who work on his post up game => no assist for bibby
bibby pass to Brad, who pass up his open look and earn his assist =>......
that's why i think assist per game is so mis-leading XD
when bibby shoots more (20+ shots) and score more (25+ points)...we win most of the games..
when bibby makes more assists but shoot less, we actually lose more...
I think this is enough to explain why this guy become "shoot-first-pg", becasue he is asked to do that, and he actually needs to do that...
yes i love his passing game more than his shooting game...but in terms of passing, we have Brad to do that (again...sad)...but in terms of scoring, i am sorry, Bibby is the only reliablie guy (not sure about Artest) so far....if Bibby's shooting will lead to W, I don't see why he should shoot less...
now we have Artest, and Wells will be back someday, and SAR will get healthy....I am sure by then Bibby will shoot lesser and score lesser(if you want to satisfy Artest's 30 shots per game demand)...but that doesn't mean his assists will be higher than now.....why? Let's think of it:
bibby pass to Wells, Wells work on his post up game =>no assist for bibby
bibby pass to Artest, who work on his post up game =>no assist for bibby
bibby pass to SAR, who work on his post up game => no assist for bibby
bibby pass to Brad, who pass up his open look and earn his assist =>......
that's why i think assist per game is so mis-leading XD
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I believe he's a shoot first PG because he's comfortable in that role. I believe that he's more of a SG, who is forced to play PG.
He's been playing SG for however long he's been in Sacramento.
Relying on Miller to set up the offense is pretty bad. Why? Because players have to move to get open to allow it to work. (not that movement is bad) Whereas a good PG can dribble, penetrate and kick/dish to open teammates.
Miller, in my opinion, doesn't CREATE ... he reacts.
Bibby being a "reliable" guy is hogwash, in my opinion too. At the beginning of the year he couldn't hit anything. Even now, he's on one night, off the next. That's not reliable. The ONLY reliable scorer we've had is Reef ... and he is the only one that never really got shots. (perhaps that's why he's reliable?)
I disagree, vehemently, that Bibby shooting leads to wins. We may have wins when Bibby is shooting, mainly because he's HOT over the last 10 or so games and we played some pretty sucktastic teams.
Artest is not and has never been a volume shooter.
In fact, the only player showing the propensity to be one is Bibby.
Yet, he averaged 8+ assists per game in Vancouver when he was passing to the extremely reliable Othella Harrington?
A good PG CREATES the play. They will get their assist numbers.
Bibby CAN BE that player and SHOULD BE that player. He's not Steve Nash, because he doesn't have the dribbling skills or quickness ... but he doesn't HAVE to. John Stockton wasn't like Nash either. I think Bibby can average 9+ assists per game (along with 14+PPG) ... and when he does, I think we'll be a better team for it.
He's been playing SG for however long he's been in Sacramento.
Relying on Miller to set up the offense is pretty bad. Why? Because players have to move to get open to allow it to work. (not that movement is bad) Whereas a good PG can dribble, penetrate and kick/dish to open teammates.
Miller, in my opinion, doesn't CREATE ... he reacts.
Bibby being a "reliable" guy is hogwash, in my opinion too. At the beginning of the year he couldn't hit anything. Even now, he's on one night, off the next. That's not reliable. The ONLY reliable scorer we've had is Reef ... and he is the only one that never really got shots. (perhaps that's why he's reliable?)
I disagree, vehemently, that Bibby shooting leads to wins. We may have wins when Bibby is shooting, mainly because he's HOT over the last 10 or so games and we played some pretty sucktastic teams.
Artest is not and has never been a volume shooter.
In fact, the only player showing the propensity to be one is Bibby.
Yet, he averaged 8+ assists per game in Vancouver when he was passing to the extremely reliable Othella Harrington?
A good PG CREATES the play. They will get their assist numbers.
Bibby CAN BE that player and SHOULD BE that player. He's not Steve Nash, because he doesn't have the dribbling skills or quickness ... but he doesn't HAVE to. John Stockton wasn't like Nash either. I think Bibby can average 9+ assists per game (along with 14+PPG) ... and when he does, I think we'll be a better team for it.
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Oh my goodness! I CANNOT believe that we have let an article about how well Bibby has been playing for us turn into this. Bibby is NOT perfect, but whn it comes the the man that has gotten us through so far this year, it is Bibby. Somebody said earlier that being this critical of him was barking up the WRONG tree and I could not agree more.
The bottom line, we have not won very many games (if any) this season when he has not scored a lot of points. As for his assists being low, your teammates have to MAKE the shot when he passes to them. I cannot count the number of blown baskets we have made after he has made VERY GOOD passes to other members on the team.
Again, I am not saying that he has no room for improvement. What I am saying is that, of ALL the players on the team thus far, HE IS THE ONE WHO HAS HELPED MORE THAN HINDERED. He is the main reason we have won as many games as we have, so forgive me if I have a hard time understanding how in the world we could actually argue about this or say that he hurts our chances of winning.
The bottom line, we have not won very many games (if any) this season when he has not scored a lot of points. As for his assists being low, your teammates have to MAKE the shot when he passes to them. I cannot count the number of blown baskets we have made after he has made VERY GOOD passes to other members on the team.
Again, I am not saying that he has no room for improvement. What I am saying is that, of ALL the players on the team thus far, HE IS THE ONE WHO HAS HELPED MORE THAN HINDERED. He is the main reason we have won as many games as we have, so forgive me if I have a hard time understanding how in the world we could actually argue about this or say that he hurts our chances of winning.
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Is that because Bibby is carrying us or because he's forcing it?
That's where I think I disagree with most people that support Bibby. Well, support might not be a proper word choice, since I'm not against him ...
But, I see him taking the most shots, from beginning of the year until now, not because he HAS to ... but because he wants to. He chooses to. I don't believe he is doing anything particularly "amazing". 20+ PPG on 17+ SPG is not a feat that is unsurmountable.
Is no one else capable of scoring 20+PPG on 17+ SPG?
I don't buy the "he's 'carrying' the team" thing ...
Now, from my perspective, I would ask is that because he's such an asset scoring that when he doesn't score it's because he's not involved or because every night he's putting up a lot of shots and when he's off no one else is involved so we lose?
EVERY PG in the league faces the same dilemma ... yet they aren't 27th in the league in APG48M (and 17th overall).
Again, I would question that, not that I'm right ... just the way I analyze it.
He's got the lowest +/- rating of the starters. He plays HIS game regardless of what the score is or who he's out there with. He doesn't seem to try to get those other players involved - unless their name is Brad Miller. He's also playing awful defensively (minus last game).
That, to me, is hindering. That doesn't mean unskilled or worthless ... because he's anything but ... but it means that I don't think his scoring feats are that impressive in light of the everything else.
I think ANYONE who says he hurts your chances of winning aren't looking at the whole picture. I think if he plays selfishly and continues shooting 17+ times a game when people are healthy or continues to lead the team in shots ... then he is hurting the cause.
That's where I think I disagree with most people that support Bibby. Well, support might not be a proper word choice, since I'm not against him ...
But, I see him taking the most shots, from beginning of the year until now, not because he HAS to ... but because he wants to. He chooses to. I don't believe he is doing anything particularly "amazing". 20+ PPG on 17+ SPG is not a feat that is unsurmountable.
Is no one else capable of scoring 20+PPG on 17+ SPG?
I don't buy the "he's 'carrying' the team" thing ...
Now, from my perspective, I would ask is that because he's such an asset scoring that when he doesn't score it's because he's not involved or because every night he's putting up a lot of shots and when he's off no one else is involved so we lose?
EVERY PG in the league faces the same dilemma ... yet they aren't 27th in the league in APG48M (and 17th overall).
Again, I would question that, not that I'm right ... just the way I analyze it.
He's got the lowest +/- rating of the starters. He plays HIS game regardless of what the score is or who he's out there with. He doesn't seem to try to get those other players involved - unless their name is Brad Miller. He's also playing awful defensively (minus last game).
That, to me, is hindering. That doesn't mean unskilled or worthless ... because he's anything but ... but it means that I don't think his scoring feats are that impressive in light of the everything else.
I think ANYONE who says he hurts your chances of winning aren't looking at the whole picture. I think if he plays selfishly and continues shooting 17+ times a game when people are healthy or continues to lead the team in shots ... then he is hurting the cause.
Note the old Vancouver rivalry flavor we've got here -- Bibby should get out of Reef's way etc. etc. Worst part is I continue to believe there is something there on the court too. Reef seems to mess with Mike's mojo somehow.
Note also this:
Bibby Last 10 games:
24.5pts (.431 FG% .351 3pt% .878 FT%) 2.8reb 5.8ast 1.0stl 0.0blk
Ray Allen season:
24.6pts (.432 FG% .382 3pt% .900 FT%) 4.3reb 3.6ast 1.6stl 0.2blk
Gilbert Arenas season:
28.1pts (.436 FG% .355 3pt% .813 FT%) 3.8reb 6.0ast 1.7stl 0.4blk
Note also these interesting stats:
In Games Won/Lost:
Bibby
Won: 25.7pts (.485) 3.4rebs 5.6ast
Lost: 17.3pts (.398) 2.8rebs 5.5ast
Bibby is our bellweather -- the guy we have almost always needed to have a big game to get a win this year. If he's struggling offensively, so are we.
Note also this:
Bibby Last 10 games:
24.5pts (.431 FG% .351 3pt% .878 FT%) 2.8reb 5.8ast 1.0stl 0.0blk
Ray Allen season:
24.6pts (.432 FG% .382 3pt% .900 FT%) 4.3reb 3.6ast 1.6stl 0.2blk
Gilbert Arenas season:
28.1pts (.436 FG% .355 3pt% .813 FT%) 3.8reb 6.0ast 1.7stl 0.4blk
Note also these interesting stats:
In Games Won/Lost:
Bibby
Won: 25.7pts (.485) 3.4rebs 5.6ast
Lost: 17.3pts (.398) 2.8rebs 5.5ast
Bibby is our bellweather -- the guy we have almost always needed to have a big game to get a win this year. If he's struggling offensively, so are we.
Bibby is definitely the bellweather and I really think Bibby's been stepping up on offense out of necessity. However, as Allen/Seattle and Arenas/Washington show, I don't know how successful you're going to be if your leading scorer and leading shot taker is shooting 43% from the field. Even Allen Iverson isn't shooting that low. I don't blame Bibby, there hasn't been another option lately, but I also don't think it's a sustainable strategy. As that win/loss stat shows, Bibby's just not consistent enough to be depended upon to be a first option on offense and take the most shots.
If the Kings hitch their win/loss record to Bibby's on-again/off-again shooting stroke they're going to end up around .500. They need to return to a situation where Bibby is a distributor first and scores second -- and if he has a hot hand then by all means feed him 20-25 shots. Otherwise, balance is going to be a better strategy.
P.S. Also, I don't agree with playmaker that Reef should be taking the most shots. He's been extremely efective as an 11 shots a game guy, if he takes more it might be a case of diminishing returns. I'm curious to see how Artest will fit on offensively -- maybe he'll turn into the 1st option on offense.
If the Kings hitch their win/loss record to Bibby's on-again/off-again shooting stroke they're going to end up around .500. They need to return to a situation where Bibby is a distributor first and scores second -- and if he has a hot hand then by all means feed him 20-25 shots. Otherwise, balance is going to be a better strategy.
P.S. Also, I don't agree with playmaker that Reef should be taking the most shots. He's been extremely efective as an 11 shots a game guy, if he takes more it might be a case of diminishing returns. I'm curious to see how Artest will fit on offensively -- maybe he'll turn into the 1st option on offense.
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I completely second that.
I've never said he should take the most. I think Reef's effective at around 15-16 shots. You can feed him more and he'll produce, but we have too many options for any one person to take 17-20 shots ... especially Reef.
I think distribution should be something like this over the course of a year:
Artest: 16-17
Reef: 15-17
Bibby: 12-14
Miller: 8-10
Bonzi: 6-10
That's 58 shots - which is less than our starting unit averages. I think these numbers are a proper distribution of shots.
I don't think this team has a "clear cut" 1st option. There is a lot of talent on the team.
We have a good blend of inside scoring with Bonzi/Reef/Artest to mid-range scoring Miller/Artest/Bibby/Reef to outside scoring Bibby/Artest.
I've never said he should take the most. I think Reef's effective at around 15-16 shots. You can feed him more and he'll produce, but we have too many options for any one person to take 17-20 shots ... especially Reef.
I think distribution should be something like this over the course of a year:
Artest: 16-17
Reef: 15-17
Bibby: 12-14
Miller: 8-10
Bonzi: 6-10
That's 58 shots - which is less than our starting unit averages. I think these numbers are a proper distribution of shots.
I don't think this team has a "clear cut" 1st option. There is a lot of talent on the team.
We have a good blend of inside scoring with Bonzi/Reef/Artest to mid-range scoring Miller/Artest/Bibby/Reef to outside scoring Bibby/Artest.
Truthfully, are you an old Vancouver Grizzlies fan, a fan of Shareef? You seem to have an agenda for attacking Bibby at the expense of Shareef.
I'll admit that my favorite player is Bibby and that I'll always be biased towards him in someway.
However, it's not Bibby's design to have the offense run through Brad. That's the design of Adelman and Carrill, it's the Princetown offense. Brad's trying to fill the void left by Webber and Vlade. In this offense, it simply isn't Bibby's job to break down the defense and create for everyone else. I agree that he isn't a #1 scorer for the team to constantly fall back on. He can do that occasionally but he's meant to be more of a #2 scorer. That doesn't mean he still isn't having an All Star year. He has been forced into the #1 role due to all the trades and injuries. At times this year Peja, Bonzi, and SAR have all been out at the same time. What else is left??? Miller is a pass first player, Bibby had to step up out of necessity. Who would you rather have taking more shots: Bibby, Garcia, Martin, or Kenny Thomas? I think you're being unfair in criticizing his assist totals.
Also, like someone said, his teammates actually have to make the shots when he gives them the ball. He's certainly capable of distributing, as evidenced by his 35 pt, 10 assist game Wed night. Additionally, you can't act like everyone can score alot of points just b/c they take alot of shots. It isn't that easy to score in this league. That's why Iverson has always gotten alot of praise for putting up 35 even when he shot 35% doing so. It's still a very valuable skill, to actually put the ball in the basket.
Bibby was off for a few weeks to start the season. But over the course of the year, he's averaging a career high 21.2, so I'd say he's been on more than he's been off. He's also been a very reliable player for the Kings. How many game winning shots has he hit for us? Remember the stretch of buzzer beaters last March? This guy is not an average player, he's a damn good one. I'd say he finally deserves a spot on the All Star team.
Everyone on this Kings team is flawed in some way. Miller is a horrible down low defender and doesn't rebound enough. Shareef's rebounding for a PF is atrocious, K9 is too inconsistent, Bonzi is still hurt, Artest... we know that deal, and the other guys just aren't good or are very young. Bibby's weakness is his defense, but I think it will improve with Artest (it also wouldn't be as bad with any kind of a shotblocking presence down low). When you add it all up, I'd have to say that Bibby is the best player on the team and the one we should be criticizing the least.
I'll admit that my favorite player is Bibby and that I'll always be biased towards him in someway.
However, it's not Bibby's design to have the offense run through Brad. That's the design of Adelman and Carrill, it's the Princetown offense. Brad's trying to fill the void left by Webber and Vlade. In this offense, it simply isn't Bibby's job to break down the defense and create for everyone else. I agree that he isn't a #1 scorer for the team to constantly fall back on. He can do that occasionally but he's meant to be more of a #2 scorer. That doesn't mean he still isn't having an All Star year. He has been forced into the #1 role due to all the trades and injuries. At times this year Peja, Bonzi, and SAR have all been out at the same time. What else is left??? Miller is a pass first player, Bibby had to step up out of necessity. Who would you rather have taking more shots: Bibby, Garcia, Martin, or Kenny Thomas? I think you're being unfair in criticizing his assist totals.
Also, like someone said, his teammates actually have to make the shots when he gives them the ball. He's certainly capable of distributing, as evidenced by his 35 pt, 10 assist game Wed night. Additionally, you can't act like everyone can score alot of points just b/c they take alot of shots. It isn't that easy to score in this league. That's why Iverson has always gotten alot of praise for putting up 35 even when he shot 35% doing so. It's still a very valuable skill, to actually put the ball in the basket.
Bibby was off for a few weeks to start the season. But over the course of the year, he's averaging a career high 21.2, so I'd say he's been on more than he's been off. He's also been a very reliable player for the Kings. How many game winning shots has he hit for us? Remember the stretch of buzzer beaters last March? This guy is not an average player, he's a damn good one. I'd say he finally deserves a spot on the All Star team.
Everyone on this Kings team is flawed in some way. Miller is a horrible down low defender and doesn't rebound enough. Shareef's rebounding for a PF is atrocious, K9 is too inconsistent, Bonzi is still hurt, Artest... we know that deal, and the other guys just aren't good or are very young. Bibby's weakness is his defense, but I think it will improve with Artest (it also wouldn't be as bad with any kind of a shotblocking presence down low). When you add it all up, I'd have to say that Bibby is the best player on the team and the one we should be criticizing the least.
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I am a fan of Shareef, so I followed him in Vancouver.
My agenda isn't so much "anti-Bibby" ... although I do have a small, but profound dislike of him, in as much as it is anti-no-defense-players.
I agree that a lot of Bibby's scoring has come out of circumstance this year. I was not a fan though, of the beginning of the year when Bibby/Peja led the team in shots. I thought that was a foolish way to distribute shots. Our record shows this.
That's the thing. Every other PG seems to find ways of getting the ball to less reliable options than Miller, Peja, Reef, Thomas, et al ... 27th in the league is pretty sub-standard.
BUT - I believe ... no, let me rephrase, I KNOW that Bibby is capable of getting assists. 8+APG in Vancouver are a testament.
Although, that said, I still rarely see Bibby break his man down and find the proper pass.
Yes, for the most part it is. These guys are professionals. Most of them are good. Real good. The difference between a stud and the next guy isn't really THAT much, and a lot of the time it has to do with confidence and opportunity.
Heck, even Bibby has never approached 20+PPG until this year and is now showing he can do it. Opportunity knocks.
17+SPG for 20PPG is average/mediocre. It's filling it up, but it isn't necessarily efficient. It means that the player isn't getting to the line much, or if he is he's missing his shots. It means that the player is probably shooting a poor percentage.
Bibby is not shooting a good percentage and not necessarily getting to the line that often either.
With all that said - I still think Bibby is doing a heck of a job. I just wish he'd expend the same effort on defense.
43% from the floor tends to argue against that assertation.
I agree - and he'd be a top tier player if he'd play a modicrum of defense.
Like I've said, in my opinion, last game was the most impressed I've been with him. I know his shot will fall, but he did the things a PG should.
Over Tony Parker? Over Steve Nash? Over Baron Davis (who I loathe)? Over Andre Miller? Over Sam Cassell? How about the emergence of Chris Paul?
I'm not saying I think Bibby is necessarily behind any of these guys - but ALL of them have a contention about making the all-star game based solely on their play thus far.
I just see things differently, that's all. Enjoy your love for Bibby ... I know my "man crush" on Reef isn't going to be dissuaded by anyone here.
I think Bibby is a SOLID player that would be AWESOME if he'd exert effort for the entire game on both ends.
My agenda isn't so much "anti-Bibby" ... although I do have a small, but profound dislike of him, in as much as it is anti-no-defense-players.
I agree that a lot of Bibby's scoring has come out of circumstance this year. I was not a fan though, of the beginning of the year when Bibby/Peja led the team in shots. I thought that was a foolish way to distribute shots. Our record shows this.
That's the thing. Every other PG seems to find ways of getting the ball to less reliable options than Miller, Peja, Reef, Thomas, et al ... 27th in the league is pretty sub-standard.
BUT - I believe ... no, let me rephrase, I KNOW that Bibby is capable of getting assists. 8+APG in Vancouver are a testament.
Although, that said, I still rarely see Bibby break his man down and find the proper pass.
Yes, for the most part it is. These guys are professionals. Most of them are good. Real good. The difference between a stud and the next guy isn't really THAT much, and a lot of the time it has to do with confidence and opportunity.
Heck, even Bibby has never approached 20+PPG until this year and is now showing he can do it. Opportunity knocks.
17+SPG for 20PPG is average/mediocre. It's filling it up, but it isn't necessarily efficient. It means that the player isn't getting to the line much, or if he is he's missing his shots. It means that the player is probably shooting a poor percentage.
Bibby is not shooting a good percentage and not necessarily getting to the line that often either.
With all that said - I still think Bibby is doing a heck of a job. I just wish he'd expend the same effort on defense.
43% from the floor tends to argue against that assertation.
I agree - and he'd be a top tier player if he'd play a modicrum of defense.
Like I've said, in my opinion, last game was the most impressed I've been with him. I know his shot will fall, but he did the things a PG should.
Over Tony Parker? Over Steve Nash? Over Baron Davis (who I loathe)? Over Andre Miller? Over Sam Cassell? How about the emergence of Chris Paul?
I'm not saying I think Bibby is necessarily behind any of these guys - but ALL of them have a contention about making the all-star game based solely on their play thus far.
I just see things differently, that's all. Enjoy your love for Bibby ... I know my "man crush" on Reef isn't going to be dissuaded by anyone here.
I think Bibby is a SOLID player that would be AWESOME if he'd exert effort for the entire game on both ends.
well written in my opinion.....guys always criticizing the players not doing certain things and over-doing certain things...but seriously, a lot of them is due to our team's strategies on both ends....I believe the reason Bibby shoot that much is mainly because he is asked to step it up, he needs to step it up and he wants to step it up..
Let's think of it this way....remember the Steve Nash in Dallas few years ago (right, the one who was beaten up by Bibby nights in and nights out)? Compare the MVP Nash now and the Nash in the past...you can see that his game really hasn't changed much...I mean, its not that he added something into his game that make him a better player now...instead, he has more control with the ball in the Suns and so he has chance to do whatever he wants almost every single possesion...before, he needed to give the ball to Dirk or Finely and let them work their own..
Now look at Bibby, how many games have you seen this year that Bibby really is the operating guy on offense? I still remember when we had the starting 5 of Brad, SAR, Peja, Wells and Bibby...the offense was like this:
1) Bibby pass to Brad at the high post right after he cross the mid-court, then do his 3 man game with Brad and Peja and 1 of the 3 would get an open look
2) pass the ball to SAR, and let him work on his post-up game..Bibby and
Peja stand outside the 3 point line to create space
3) pass the ball to Wells, and let him play 1 on 1...bibby and peja again waiting outside to create space
4) as many people critizing, Bibby dribble the ball through Brad's pick and get his own shot (seriously, many PG do this including Nash and Billups)
So, does Bibby really have that much control on the offensive end? I don't think so. Even if you somehow get Nash in the Kings, if you don't let him play his own game, you can easily imagine him as an exact same player as Bibby (especially when your guys are discouraged to do cuts but just stand in the corner...you know what I am talking about..)
Let's think of it this way....remember the Steve Nash in Dallas few years ago (right, the one who was beaten up by Bibby nights in and nights out)? Compare the MVP Nash now and the Nash in the past...you can see that his game really hasn't changed much...I mean, its not that he added something into his game that make him a better player now...instead, he has more control with the ball in the Suns and so he has chance to do whatever he wants almost every single possesion...before, he needed to give the ball to Dirk or Finely and let them work their own..
Now look at Bibby, how many games have you seen this year that Bibby really is the operating guy on offense? I still remember when we had the starting 5 of Brad, SAR, Peja, Wells and Bibby...the offense was like this:
1) Bibby pass to Brad at the high post right after he cross the mid-court, then do his 3 man game with Brad and Peja and 1 of the 3 would get an open look
2) pass the ball to SAR, and let him work on his post-up game..Bibby and
Peja stand outside the 3 point line to create space
3) pass the ball to Wells, and let him play 1 on 1...bibby and peja again waiting outside to create space
4) as many people critizing, Bibby dribble the ball through Brad's pick and get his own shot (seriously, many PG do this including Nash and Billups)
So, does Bibby really have that much control on the offensive end? I don't think so. Even if you somehow get Nash in the Kings, if you don't let him play his own game, you can easily imagine him as an exact same player as Bibby (especially when your guys are discouraged to do cuts but just stand in the corner...you know what I am talking about..)
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With all the injuries, even when healthy, no one else has stepped up. Bibby had to, to even give his team a chance to win. Actually, you couldn't be anymore wrong; there's a major difference between a stud and the next guy. They're miles apart. There's certain things you either have or you don't. Just because you give Jason Hart the same number SPG's as Bibby doesn't mean he's going to average 21 PPG himself.
By your definitions, AI has been a mediocre player his whole career. All scorers, take alot of shots, that's the way it is. Especially when no one else is capable or wants to: Bonzi and SAR have been hurt, Peja didn't want it, Brad also doesn't want it, and no one else is good enough to make alot of shots to keep the team in games. Bibby's percentage is going to be lower since he has to take those shots, he's the only one who's been capable and able to help the team win.
Yes, I would take Bibby over Chris Paul, Andre Miller, and Sam Cassell. I haven't seen enough of Davis this year to comment on him, but I think Bibby and Parker are very equal, except that Parker plays on an alot better team. Nash is Nash, he's thriving in that system, but don't forget the neck and neck battles he and Bibby used to have when Nash was with the Mavs.
By your definitions, AI has been a mediocre player his whole career. All scorers, take alot of shots, that's the way it is. Especially when no one else is capable or wants to: Bonzi and SAR have been hurt, Peja didn't want it, Brad also doesn't want it, and no one else is good enough to make alot of shots to keep the team in games. Bibby's percentage is going to be lower since he has to take those shots, he's the only one who's been capable and able to help the team win.
Yes, I would take Bibby over Chris Paul, Andre Miller, and Sam Cassell. I haven't seen enough of Davis this year to comment on him, but I think Bibby and Parker are very equal, except that Parker plays on an alot better team. Nash is Nash, he's thriving in that system, but don't forget the neck and neck battles he and Bibby used to have when Nash was with the Mavs.
what everybody doesn't realize is Bibby does find the open man in a situation to score. Wether they do or not is their deal. There are plenty of times when Bibby drives the lane and kicks out to Peja (now Artest or Cisco) on the wings or Miller /Reef/Thomas on the elbow. I thinks its stupid to force Reef to play high post.
These are very interesting stats but...while I am too lazy to check for myself, I would be interested to see how many "shot attempts" were made of each of these players in the final 5 minutes. I am pretty sure that Bibby has put up the most since he is the first option. I think with more attempts you have a truer guage. If Bonzi has only had 10 shots in the final five minutes of games he's played and made 7 shots (70%) and Mike has had 100 shots in the final 5 minutes of games he's played and made only 36 (36%) I have to believe that Bonzi is not going to be shooting 70% if has had a 100 shots as well.
The defense is almost always a lot tougher in the final 5 minutes of a close game so in general a players shooting percentage is going to be less than his overall shooting percentage. There may be exceptions on a game by game basis but I doubt a players last 5 minutes shooting % for the season is going to be higher that his Seasons shooting % unless it has just been a 1 or 2 time exception.
Still those stats were interesting
The defense is almost always a lot tougher in the final 5 minutes of a close game so in general a players shooting percentage is going to be less than his overall shooting percentage. There may be exceptions on a game by game basis but I doubt a players last 5 minutes shooting % for the season is going to be higher that his Seasons shooting % unless it has just been a 1 or 2 time exception.
Still those stats were interesting
I agree with both of these, to some extent. He hasn't just gone out and froze out his team-mates, the role drawn up for him as more of a SG than a PG. I don't want to put a leash on him, he can be damn a effective shooter, you don't want to shut that down completely. But I WOULD like to see what he can do as an initiator more.
As to all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the "Bibby bashing"... c'mon now. this is NOT bashing. What happened to peja, what happened to webber... that was bashing. Plain and simple. This is critiquing aspects of a player's game.
Has anyone in this thread suggested that the Kings would be better without him?
Has anyone demanded a trade?
Can we not breakdown a player's game and try to pinpont how it could be better? If not, then what is the point of this board? to sing kumbaya and relive the semi-glory years? Bah
I hate the stupid juvenile "smack" threads too, the kinds that have permeated the discussion of Peja and Webber towards the ends of their tenures with the KIngs. This thread isn't, in my opinion, anything like those.
As to all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the "Bibby bashing"... c'mon now. this is NOT bashing. What happened to peja, what happened to webber... that was bashing. Plain and simple. This is critiquing aspects of a player's game.
Has anyone in this thread suggested that the Kings would be better without him?
Has anyone demanded a trade?
Can we not breakdown a player's game and try to pinpont how it could be better? If not, then what is the point of this board? to sing kumbaya and relive the semi-glory years? Bah
I hate the stupid juvenile "smack" threads too, the kinds that have permeated the discussion of Peja and Webber towards the ends of their tenures with the KIngs. This thread isn't, in my opinion, anything like those.
Here are the per48 minute shot attempts in "clutch" play on 82games.com, along with FG% (ranked according to shot attempts):
Bibby: 26.7, .362%
Bonzi: 18.3, .583%
Reef: 14.0, .571%
Brad: 13.1, .217%
Peja: 11.2, .083% (unreal)
Kenny: 10.8, .857%
Martin: 4.6, .667%
Garcia: 4.0, .333%
So yes, there might be something to Bibby taking so many shots in crunch time.
Now, are Bibby's numbers representative of his career? Here are his clutch field goal numbers:
2005-2006: .362%
2004-2005: .416%
2003-2004: .371%
2002-2003: .470%
And, for comparison, here's a spattering of other players' percentages for the 2005-2006 season:
Webber: 25.5, .453%
Iverson: 25.3, .359%
Nash: 24.0, .414%
Billups: 26.5, .375%
Parker: 25.4, .369%
Wade: 28.3, .473%
Horry: 8.5, .500%
Lebron: 25.6, .386%
Duncan: 21.1, .343%
Dirk: 30.6, .403%
Carmelo: 20.1, .426%
Allen: 33.0, .397%
Arenas: 28.6, .338%
Marbury: 29.3, .417%
Kobe: 35.6, .381%
Judging from these numbers, Bibby's don't exactly stand out, but they're not terrible either. Bonzi and Reef's numbers, on the other hand, are really something when you look at other players around the league.
And, last but not least, here are Artest's numbers with the Pacers:
2005-2006: 11.2, .250%
2004-2005: 18.6, .455%
2003-2004: 16.8, .481%
2002-2003: 17.5, .340%
Bibby: 26.7, .362%
Bonzi: 18.3, .583%
Reef: 14.0, .571%
Brad: 13.1, .217%
Peja: 11.2, .083% (unreal)
Kenny: 10.8, .857%
Martin: 4.6, .667%
Garcia: 4.0, .333%
So yes, there might be something to Bibby taking so many shots in crunch time.
Now, are Bibby's numbers representative of his career? Here are his clutch field goal numbers:
2005-2006: .362%
2004-2005: .416%
2003-2004: .371%
2002-2003: .470%
And, for comparison, here's a spattering of other players' percentages for the 2005-2006 season:
Webber: 25.5, .453%
Iverson: 25.3, .359%
Nash: 24.0, .414%
Billups: 26.5, .375%
Parker: 25.4, .369%
Wade: 28.3, .473%
Horry: 8.5, .500%
Lebron: 25.6, .386%
Duncan: 21.1, .343%
Dirk: 30.6, .403%
Carmelo: 20.1, .426%
Allen: 33.0, .397%
Arenas: 28.6, .338%
Marbury: 29.3, .417%
Kobe: 35.6, .381%
Judging from these numbers, Bibby's don't exactly stand out, but they're not terrible either. Bonzi and Reef's numbers, on the other hand, are really something when you look at other players around the league.
And, last but not least, here are Artest's numbers with the Pacers:
2005-2006: 11.2, .250%
2004-2005: 18.6, .455%
2003-2004: 16.8, .481%
2002-2003: 17.5, .340%
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Overall, you're right, this thread isn't about bashing. However, I think most of us would agree that there are much bigger problems right now that Bibby's shortcomings, that he's been the Kings most productive player this year.
However, I would consider calling Bibby an "average player" to be borderline bashing and extremely insulting given how he has performed for this franchise.
However, I would consider calling Bibby an "average player" to be borderline bashing and extremely insulting given how he has performed for this franchise.
I think that reputation stuck with him until his final year with the Kings. Prior to last year, he seemed more unwilling to take the final shot. Then last season he hit some game winners, including a huge 3 pointer in Houston to send a game into OT. Since then he's been a different player with the game on the line.
Here are Webber's career numbers:
2005-2006: 25.5, .453%
2004-2005: 27.9, .383% (Kings)
2004-2005: 34.2, .333% (Sixers)
2003-2004: 28.0, .240%
2002-2003: 26.6, .473%
Hard to judge much from these numbers since they're all over the place, although his healthiest seasons on this list, 2002-2003 and 2005-2006 are good percentages.
2005-2006: 25.5, .453%
2004-2005: 27.9, .383% (Kings)
2004-2005: 34.2, .333% (Sixers)
2003-2004: 28.0, .240%
2002-2003: 26.6, .473%
Hard to judge much from these numbers since they're all over the place, although his healthiest seasons on this list, 2002-2003 and 2005-2006 are good percentages.
Can't really take too much for that. Bibby is the only guy that can really create his own shot in crunch time. Everyone else needs a set-up. Notice how Billups who is widely regaurded as the crunch time player and the one who always gets the ball for the Pistons is shooting .375... Iverson's is also low. But you wouldn't want Webber taking all the shots in crunch time would you? Besides Wade, all the guys that get the ball at the end shoot low percentage. I see this as no knock to Bibby...
I don't think the timeout thing ever really got away from Webber either. I have to give him respect for poking fun at himself by naming his charity "Time Out" his rookie year.
I remember that three. It's probably just my timeliness, but all I've seen him do in Philadelphia is miss 4th quarter shots. I really was on Peja's side in the (ostensible) war between the two, so I'm probably predisposed toward not liking him.
I remember that three. It's probably just my timeliness, but all I've seen him do in Philadelphia is miss 4th quarter shots. I really was on Peja's side in the (ostensible) war between the two, so I'm probably predisposed toward not liking him.
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P
Reef was on the floor 55% of the time the team has been in that situation and his per48 shot attempts in that time is 14.
Similarly:
Miller - 99% of the time. His per48 shot attempts 13.1
Peja - 61% of the time. Per48 - 11.2
Bonzi - 33% of the time. Per48 - 18.3
Bibby - 99% of the time. Per48 - 26.7
So, outside of Bonzi - they all have enough floor time to make an accurate assessment, no?
----- EDIT: SORRY, SOMEONE BEAT ME TO THE PUNCH -----
Similarly:
Miller - 99% of the time. His per48 shot attempts 13.1
Peja - 61% of the time. Per48 - 11.2
Bonzi - 33% of the time. Per48 - 18.3
Bibby - 99% of the time. Per48 - 26.7
So, outside of Bonzi - they all have enough floor time to make an accurate assessment, no?
----- EDIT: SORRY, SOMEONE BEAT ME TO THE PUNCH -----
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