Ben

[HndsmCelt]

First of all I am loving what Mac Lemore is bringing. That being said if Thorton is not traded he will be even more useless if he is replaced in the starting line up. For my money I would prefer to see Thorton packaged out in a deal that either nets us a back up center or a starting 3. Then give MLM the nod to start.

 

[Glenn]

Again, if you start IT and Ben you're left with absolutely NOTHING coming off the bench. It might end up that way, but I'm not ready to sign on for that quite yet.

I agree. It IS a 48 minute game. Too much is made of starting vs coming off the bench. This is not high school or college. Historically some of the greatest players on a team have come off the bench starting with John Havlicek many moons ago. Isn't he in the H of F? The 6th man award was created to honor these great athletes. Would IT like a 6th man award trophy in his home or nothing? I suspect the 6th man trophy would look pretty good.

 

[Glenn]

First of all I am loving what Mac Lemore is bringing. That being said if Thorton is not traded he will be even more useless if he is replaced in the starting line up. For my money I would prefer to see Thorton packaged out in a deal that either nets us a back up center or a starting 3. Then give MLM the nod to start.

I'm just curious but don't you think MT would fit in the helter skelter game led by IT and perhaps also with PPat?

 

[Sac.Kings]

I'm just curious but don't you think MT would fit in the helter skelter game led by IT and perhaps also with PPat?

That's too many people who want to shoot. IT alone takes up a large amount of shots, add in Patterson and JT you have your majority of the shots off the bench right there. MT started with IT last season and it didn't really do us any good. Besides, with MT on the bench, you decrease his worth significantly and are most likely going to get less in return if teams known he isn't all that valuable to you (if he were to be traded).

 

[Sac.Kings]

I think Malone knows that MT works better in a run and gun type of game. Malone is going to have to make a choice between bringing Ben along slowly, or putting the right group of guys together to win games now. MT needs to be on the floor with IT and the second unit. Ben needs to be on the floor with Vasquez. That would solve some issues immediately. Unfortunately, it appears that as of right now, the team is looking long term.

A part of me appreciates bringing a rookie along slowly with lessened expectations, but another part of me also does not want to watch the type of basketball played the last 2 games anymore. I've seen that show before, I want a new one. Ben logically makes sense. He has better shot selection than Thornton by a mile, plays within the system and is a lot of fun to watch. I hate when they go to closeups of Thornton and he is just pouting and miserable with the bottom lip sticking out. Body language like that rubs off on other people. It's proven psychologically that people are more likely to associate with negativity than a positive emotion. When your so called "2nd score" looks like he would rather be anywhere else on the planet, well you get turned off in all honesty. My guess is they are showcasing Thornton. He is gone by February.

 

[Sac.Kings]

IT, MT, PPat, and whoever else is a decent if not great bench group.

I agree, but then you run the risk of decreasing his trade value... what to do, what to do...

 

[KingMilz]

I agree, but then you run the risk of decreasing his trade value... what to do, what to do...

I think Thornton himself has done a excellent job decreasing his trade value, with the money he makes/attitude and only doing one thing. I could careless about his trade value no one needs him you can get undersized twos who can score just about everywhere. We are not getting anything decent for Thornton straight up. Next season Thornton will have more trade value than now since it will be his last year.

 

[HndsmCelt]

I'm just curious but don't you think MT would fit in the helter skelter game led by IT and perhaps also with PPat?

too much chaos and too many shooters. MT might be able to function in a system if he wants to, but in the faced paced game he HAS to be THE man, and to be honest IT seems to have taken that spot. In addition I just envision MT pouting like Louis Lloyd all game then hitting the floor trying to do everything he gets moved to the bench. I think his value in a trade is there but a trip to the bench will hurt.

 

[sdballer]

I think Thornton himself has done a excellent job decreasing his trade value, with the money he makes/attitude and only doing one thing. I could careless about his trade value no one needs him you can get undersized twos who can score just about everywhere. We are not getting anything decent for Thornton straight up. Next season Thornton will have more trade value than now since it will be his last year.

He's shown he can score 20/game just a couple years ago, is relatively young, injury free and only has one more year on his deal. For teams out there desperate for backcourt scoring (ie Chicago), he has value.

I imagine that's what the front office is thinking as well. It's a strangely fortuitous situation. The FO can hopefully showcase him for a trade while bringing Ben along slowly to not overwhelm him, especially defensively. I think we should let it ride another 10+ games.

 

[blackice]

Ben just plays with more energy and he never complains or puts on a pouty face. That alone should get him the starting SG spot, but I can see what Malone wants to do and bring the rookie along slowly and eventually start him down the line. I'd like to see Ben put up anywhere from 18-20 shots a game if he does get a starting position because the main priority besides establishing Cousins as the focal point is to get another lottery pick in a supposed "stacked" draft.

 

[KingMilz]

He's shown he can score 20/game just a couple years ago, is relatively young, injury free and only has one more year on his deal. For teams out there desperate for backcourt scoring (ie Chicago), he has value.

I imagine that's what the front office is thinking as well. It's a strangely fortuitous situation. The FO can hopefully showcase him for a trade while bringing Ben along slowly to not overwhelm him, especially defensively. I think we should let it ride another 10+ games.

He has this and next year left so next year he becomes valuable not this season he's not a expiring contract this year

 

[sdballer]

He has this and next year left so next year he becomes valuable not this season he's not a expiring contract this year

I said he had one more year left (meaning after this) and I think his value is from his scoring ability at this point.

I don't think it's massive value but proven scorers do fit needs for teams.

 

[Kingsfan23]

I said he had one more year left (meaning after this) and I think his value is from his scoring ability at this point.

I don't think it's massive value but proven scorers do fit needs for teams.

One of the reasons we'd be trying to move him is because he isn't scoring consistently/efficiently for us. This guy has sorely disappointed. Before the season I thought he was going to revert back to some of that first season or two with us in the starting lineup, now he is showing that he just can't play at a quality nba level. Hopefully this is temporary but I am doubting it and I think other teams will too.

 

[sdballer]

One of the reasons we'd be trying to move him is because he isn't scoring consistently/efficiently for us. This guy has sorely disappointed. Before the season I thought he was going to revert back to some of that first season or two with us in the starting lineup, now he is showing that he just can't play at a quality nba level. Hopefully this is temporary but I am doubting it and I think other teams will too.

It's been 4 games and he's scored well in two of them in modest attempts. I'm not defending his performance. I'm just suggesting he's shown he can score in the league and there are always gms out there hoping they can rediscover something in a guy, especially when they badly need a particular skill/position because the guys that are truly dominant that fit that need are much harder to acquire.

 

[Glenn]

This seems like a reasonable time to bump this subject up again. Ben has now -played a few more games and has even looked better. He is improving. He is composed and immensely skilled. Cousins is a beast but so also is Ben in his own little way. MT has played a few more games and looks just as bad. I really don't think it is too early and I have a feeling Malone will agree with me.

 

[sdballer]

This seems like a reasonable time to bump this subject up again. Ben has now -played a few more games and has even looked better. He is improving. He is composed and immensely skilled. Cousins is a beast but so also is Ben in his own little way. MT has played a few more games and looks just as bad. I really don't think it is too early and I have a feeling Malone will agree with me.

I mentioned it in my grading thread, but my biggest concern is if you run Ben at 2/Luc at 3 we have a massive problem with passing/handling. Better energy/d/rebounding so maybe it's worth trying but it won't come without a challenge.

 

[KingMilz]

I mentioned it in my grading thread, but my biggest concern is if you run Ben at 2/Luc at 3 we have a massive problem with passing/handling. Better energy/d/rebounding so maybe it's worth trying but it won't come without a challenge.

Thornton and Salmons are both terrible ball handlers and passer though so I don't really see that being an issue, Salmons dribbles aimlessly and Thornton has never had much of a handle, LMAM and Ben Mac will make simple effective passes instead of needlessly dribble or jacking shots.

 

[sdballer]

Thornton and Salmons are both terrible ball handlers and passer though so I don't really see that being an issue, Salmons dribbles aimlessly and Thornton has never had much of a handle, LMAM and Ben Mac will make simple effective passes.

MT is probably at best average for a 2 but Salmons (as much as I dislike him) is an above average ball handler/passer. Both Ben and Luc are far below average at those aspects of their game. They will probably bring enough in other areas to make it worthwhile but its silly to pretend like we aren't giving something up in those areas, which would place a tremendous burden on GV/Cuz effectively working together.

 

[KingMilz]

MT is probably at best average for a 2 but Salmons (as much as I dislike him) is an above average ball handler/passer. Both Ben and Luc are far below average at those aspects of their game. They will probably bring enough in other areas to make it worthwhile but its silly to pretend like we aren't giving something up in those areas, which would place a tremendous burden on GV/Cuz effectively working together.

But what has Salmons done with his "above average" handle this year? Nothing he barely gets to the rim and just dribbles around doing nothing and can't really play without the ball, the less the ball is in either of there hands the better. Ben made 3 nice drives today off the bounce which is probably more than MT and Fish have the entire season.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I mentioned it in my grading thread, but my biggest concern is if you run Ben at 2/Luc at 3 we have a massive problem with passing/handling. Better energy/d/rebounding so maybe it's worth trying but it won't come without a challenge.

Not much of anything is going to come without a challenge. There's only a handful of players around the league who do everything well. In other words, you almost always have to take a chance in "giving up something", in order to get ahead in another area. If few shots go through the basket, it's pretty difficult to be competitive, no matter how many other skills your guys might have

If you were the coach with the current roster, how would structure the playing time at the moment?

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Anyone else notice how "clean" Ben's shots have gone through the hoop. Swish, rip, swish, rip

 

[PurpleHaze]

Anyone else notice how "clean" Ben's shots have gone through the hoop. Swish, rip, swish, rip

Pure shooter, great shooter, unconscious - been that way since hard times St. Louis blacktops to big-time star at Kansas U.

 

[Glenn]

I have said it many times (I think) but this guy has skills. He will be a major shooting force in the league. The shooting is clear. His weakness with his handles is evident. What surprised me was the effort he put out on defense. I think he is better than average now, especially better than Harden , but he shows great potential on the defensive end. He doesn't appear to get rattled and seems to fulfill Malone's demand that they put the players immediately put past mistake behind them and focus on the next play. That seems like a simple and easily learnable concept. His good factors cut down on the sting of his inability to create his own shot. Everybody has a weakness or two or three but it is his above average strengths that jump out at you. For a team that needs outside shooting, he came along before Cuz got too old.

Perhaps I am too excited but I don't think so. Very quickly he will become our second best player. This and IT's contribution off the bench leave us in a great position if we get a good draft pick. We can make a big leap forward quickly in that we will have the makings of a good team.

Let me throw in a little comment about Mbah A Moute. He played very well defensively as advertised and this was despite essentially no playing time with this team. He appears stronger than I expected. I think we all have reason to look to the future with optimism but just not this year.

I'm sorry to say it but we very much need a great draft pick and we all know what that means. Now if Cousins and Ben evolve into major studs, and it appears that this will be so, we don't need the best guy in the draft although I would sure like it.

 

[KingMilz]

Let me throw in a little comment about Mbah A Moute. He played very well defensively as advertised and this was despite essentially no playing time with this team. He appears stronger than I expected. I think we all have reason to look to the future with optimism but just not this year.

The other thing about LMAM is when he plays PF while he can't create for himself he moves well and is a decent interior passer

 

[Kingstime]

Starting Ben improves the starters immensely, because hes a threat to actually hit a bucket. Salmons, MT and PPat havent done anything in 6 games and with Boogie and IT showing out alot so far, I dont see why its even a question about Ben Mac starting.

The bad thing about Thornton is we know what he is capable of and weve seen it. The best thing for him is to be the sixth man and given the green light to do his thing.

Ben will be NBA ready by the all star break if he can start and run with GV and DMC in the starting lineup.

 

[mac]

I have said it many times (I think) but this guy has skills. He will be a major shooting force in the league. The shooting is clear. His weakness with his handles is evident. What surprised me was the effort he put out on defense. I think he is better than average now, especially better than Harden , but he shows great potential on the defensive end. He doesn't appear to get rattled and seems to fulfill Malone's demand that they put the players immediately put past mistake behind them and focus on the next play. That seems like a simple and easily learnable concept. His good factors cut down on the sting of his inability to create his own shot. Everybody has a weakness or two or three but it is his above average strengths that jump out at you. For a team that needs outside shooting, he came along before Cuz got too old.

Perhaps I am too excited but I don't think so. Very quickly he will become our second best player. This and IT's contribution off the bench leave us in a great position if we get a good draft pick. We can make a big leap forward quickly in that we will have the makings of a good team.

Let me throw in a little comment about Mbah A Moute. He played very well defensively as advertised and this was despite essentially no playing time with this team. He appears stronger than I expected. I think we all have reason to look to the future with optimism but just not this year.

I'm sorry to say it but we very much need a great draft pick and we all know what that means. Now if Cousins and Ben evolve into major studs, and it appears that this will be so, we don't need the best guy in the draft although I would sure like it.

I think Ben can be a very very good 3rd option. His movement is really good and quick, and I love his hustle and athleticism. I doubt he will ever be able to become a Kobe/Wade/Ginobili kind of player who can create his own offense at will, but maybe something along the lines of Rip Hamilton/Ray Allen should be within reach. Those players can be extremely effective when you pair them with someone who can create shots for them.

My knowledge of NBA history doesn't go that far back - have there been strong teams that consisted of a dominant big and a Ray Allen-like SG?

 

[Bricklayer]

I think Ben can be a very very good 3rd option. His movement is really good and quick, and I love his hustle and athleticism. I doubt he will ever be able to become a Kobe/Wade/Ginobili kind of player who can create his own offense at will, but maybe something along the lines of Rip Hamilton/Ray Allen should be within reach. Those players can be extremely effective when you pair them with someone who can create shots for them.

My knowledge of NBA history doesn't go that far back - have there been strong teams that consisted of a dominant big and a Ray Allen-like SG?

I can't speak to the good ole pre-3pt shooting days, but in the modern 3pt shot era? No actually. People routinely overrate shooters as an NBA force. You always need them, but a "star" shooter is often just a blown up roleplayer without help from his teammates.

BUT, if you wiggle a little and expand your definitions you can find several teams that came pretty close, including our own: Webber and Peja, who was a SF, but with the same can't dribble/off the ball movement that Ben will try to use I would think. Also the 90s Pacers teams, never truly great, but they had Smits in the middle and Reggie at SG and were perennial 50 win teams/borderline contenders.

Kareem never had anybody like that in the modern era, I am less familiar with his mid to late 70s teams (early 70s = Oscar, 80s+ I know).
Shaq never had anybody like that at any of his stops. his great guard wingmen were all attack the basket type superstar class guys. Penny, Kobe, Wade.
Hakeem had lots of shooters around him on his best 90s teams, but never anybody who the offense was going to waste a lot of energy setting up.
Admiral never had anybody like that.
Mourning never had anybody like that.
Daugherty never had anybody like that.
Trying to remember Andrew Toney's game, but don't think Moses had that guy either.
Yao never had anybody like that.
Dwight has never had anybody like that.

When I say they never had anybody like that, I don't mean they never had shooters around them -- having shooters is great. I was answering your question though if any of them had star shooters running around having their team set them up for tons of shots a game. Answer there is not as far as I can recall.

And actually, I'll be flat pissed if we start taking shots from Cousins to give to McLemore. But if Ben does nothing more than just stand dead still in the corner awaiting kickouts, and hits those kickouts when they come? That would be a huge step forward for the team after what we've seen in the first 6 games.

 

[Hadlowe]

I think Ben can be a very very good 3rd option. His movement is really good and quick, and I love his hustle and athleticism. I doubt he will ever be able to become a Kobe/Wade/Ginobili kind of player who can create his own offense at will, but maybe something along the lines of Rip Hamilton/Ray Allen should be within reach. Those players can be extremely effective when you pair them with someone who can create shots for them.

My knowledge of NBA history doesn't go that far back - have there been strong teams that consisted of a dominant big and a Ray Allen-like SG?

Jeff Hornacek with the Jazz. He was the second option on offense behind Malone and played primarily coming off screens and hitting quick jumpers.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I think Ben can be a very very good 3rd option. His movement is really good and quick, and I love his hustle and athleticism. I doubt he will ever be able to become a Kobe/Wade/Ginobili kind of player who can create his own offense at will, but maybe something along the lines of Rip Hamilton/Ray Allen should be within reach. Those players can be extremely effective when you pair them with someone who can create shots for them.

My knowledge of NBA history doesn't go that far back - have there been strong teams that consisted of a dominant big and a Ray Allen-like SG?

Rick Adelman and the Kings used Peja Stojakovic this way, even though he was very tall and played forward. Offensively though, their offense was stuctured around getting their best shooter open looks. Ben can be used this same way, but will have the ability to be more versatile with his quickness

 

[Glenn]

People routinely overrate shooters as an NBA force. You always need them, but a "star" shooter is often just a blown up roleplayer without help from his teammates.

I think this is absolutely correct. Ben, as he is, is a role player and his role is to score tons of points which I think he will. His defense takes him out of the role player category a bit but I am concentrating on his offense here. There is nothing wrong with being a shooter only as (minor hyperbole warning) but he could lead the league in scoring and never be mentioned in the same breathe as Kobe, etc. as he can't create his own shot. Let us just hope his handles improve. Handles may be that one skill that is the most difficult to develop but I get the impression that if this kid puts his mind to it, he'll improve substantially.

Admittedly I am in my honeymoon/swoon phase with Ben but I don't think I am wrong.