Ben

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#1
Not the rat.

I think we have the real deal in Ben. I think we have the next great shooter. He is drawing attention from experts when they see him. The latest was Dominique Wilkins who compared Ben to Ray Allen which seems to be an ever increasing theme started by Ben himself. Ben compares himself to Allen but in no bragging manner but as a statement of fact.

The consensus on this forum is that we should bring him along slowly. I don't agree at all unless we are simply waiting to see what happens with MT which is a worthwhile wait. If MT stays at his present level, I will be surprised and horribly disappointed.

Back to Ben. The skills are obvious. He is lightning quick on offense and can get himself open quite easily. It will take more time with Malone getting used to this mess he inherited to worry about how to use Ben - or should he wait? Ben does not seem to get rattled. A case in point is last game when he got caught out of position on defense (not blaming him here). His reaction was not to hang his head in befuddlement but to go chat with Malone during a time out/free throw/whatever it was. He is solid from the neck on up. He is surprisingly focused on his job and seems to not be overly bothered by screw ups or getting burned except to the extent of trying to figure out how to prevent such an occurrence from happening again.

He can shoot. I'll close the book on any more that could be said here. Does anyone doubt his shooting ability? Straight up, lots of lift, and a quick release into the basket. Sploosh! With his off the ball movement he should find himself open a lot. The team will need to get used to him as I have seen several times where he was open and simply ignored.

On the negative side he has no NBA left hand and this hurts him as an iso player. Will he develop it? I am sure that as the years pass he will improve a little but his primary skill is to catch and shoot especially after leaving a defender breathlessly chasing him. I am usually of the mind to play to play to a guy's positives and there is a lot to play to here. Can't ignore his inability to go left but many players have been able to score and be a big part of an offense with limited iso moves like Allen, Reggie Miller, etc

On defense he is a rookie but he is already learning. He got into a player's chest last game and eventually stole the ball. No foul. I think he'll be a very good defender but he's 20, OK?

If MT bombs out as a player, and I hope he doesn't, I say throw Ben into the fray. I don't think it will hurt him as I have mentioned above and I think the best way for him to learn is to have him on the court. I want him on the court with GV and Cuz. He will provide the kind of reliable outside shooting that Cuz needs so that the entire opposition defense doesn't crash in on him. As it is now, there is no outside threat of significant skill to strike fear into the opposition's defense. PPat was supposed to be a three point threat. I have never seen it and don't see it now. He had one good game but on a day in, day out basis, he is not someone that can draw the defense out to cover him. MT is an enigma. Neither GV or Salmons/Outlaw/Mbah a Moute are a threat.

For the sake of the team we need Ben with the starters. He wouldn't be the only rookie to start and if any rookie has the skills and mental stability to jump right in, it is Ben.

This could be a very bad year for the Kings. It would not be a lost year if some attention was paid to the further maturation of Cuz especially as a passer, Ben as an offensive threat, and GV as a facilitator. GV has to get used to who is on the court. It may take a few more games for Malone to get a total grasp of what he has but I expect changes not only with Ben but elsewhere.

Is it too early for all of this? Maybe but I don't think so. I still wouldn't mind seeing Ben getting major minutes and especially I would like to see if some chemistry could be created between he and Cuz. Cuz used to be an average passer but now he has no one to pass to. Insert Ben and the equation changes. We need Cuz in beast mode but not even Cuz can do it all without an outlet to pass to. Now I'm getting redundant but it all is intertwined.

I hope this doesn't derail the thread from my major focus but I'd like to see Ben, GV, Cuz, JT, and who the hell knows as a starting 5. Mbah A Moute was supposed to be a starter I thought. JT because he has been Boogie's wing man for several years and PPat is offering next to nothing. (PPat might benefit from a more free flowing style that occurs with IT at the helm.)

I cannot discuss Ben in isolation as this is a team.
 
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#2
Not just Dominique Wilkins but pretty much everyone, including NBADraft and the other scouting sites on the web use the Ray Allen comparison.
 
#4
I don't think Thornton flourishes in a half court setting with plays actually being run. That's not who he is. Therefore, I recommend we get rid of him ASAP, because it isn't going to get any better. We are going to continue to run plays and MT has been lost in preseason and this season so far for a great majority of the time. Ben should start, we really don't have anything to lose. Thornton can help a team that needs some bench scoring at the very least.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#6
I don't think Thornton flourishes in a half court setting with plays actually being run. That's not who he is. Therefore, I recommend we get rid of him ASAP, because it isn't going to get any better. We are going to continue to run plays and MT has been lost in preseason and this season so far for a great majority of the time. Ben should start, we really don't have anything to lose. Thornton can help a team that needs some bench scoring at the very least.
IT, MT, PPat, and whoever else is a decent if not great bench group.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#7
I'm willing to defer to Malone on this one. He sees the kid everyday and knows his weaknesses and strengths at this time in his young career. Also, I don't think it's a big deal whether he starts or not. He's playing a good deal of minutes for a rookie, and at the end of games during crunch time. Lastly, he may be a better player than Thornton right now. But as IT is to Vasquez, so Ben might be to Thornton: just because you're a better player doesn't necessarily mean that you should start.
 
#8
I've wanted Ben in the starting lineup from day 1.

That said, I don't think SG is the position killing the starting five. Thornton hasn't been great, but, other than JJ Redick, Thornton's covers haven't been killing the team while he's out there. The lack of offensive production from the 3 and 4 is really hurting, and the lack of defense from the point guards. Those are the major culprits.
 
#9
His defense is gonna be elite in a couple of years. He has the length and athletisicm and add to the fact that he like playing defense.

I don't think he needs great handles to become a #2 scorer. If he can get his handles to where he can run a pick and roll he will be deadly. He is also a great rebounder at his position and a terror and the break. If he becomes a klay thompson with elite defense that is a all star player and great fit next to cousins.
 
#10
I don't think Thornton flourishes in a half court setting with plays actually being run. That's not who he is. Therefore, I recommend we get rid of him ASAP, because it isn't going to get any better. We are going to continue to run plays and MT has been lost in preseason and this season so far for a great majority of the time. Ben should start, we really don't have anything to lose. Thornton can help a team that needs some bench scoring at the very least.
He has negative trade market value at this point
 
#11
He has negative trade market value at this point
I don't know about that. He frequently comes up on other fan's message boards. He's shown he can score in this league and for teams that need a scorer, he can have worth. Don't think we'd get a ton in return but he's tradeable.
 
#12
I've wanted Ben in the starting lineup from day 1.

That said, I don't think SG is the position killing the starting five. Thornton hasn't been great, but, other than JJ Redick, Thornton's covers haven't been killing the team while he's out there. The lack of offensive production from the 3 and 4 is really hurting, and the lack of defense from the point guards. Those are the major culprits.
Disagree. Thornton's failure to play second fiddle to DeMarcus has destroyed the effectiveness of that unit offensively. If he steps up, then we have the ready-made 3rd and 4th options with GV and JT. But he's been incredibly passive for a majority of his minutes this season.

I don't want to start IT, as I think he could be the best 6th man in the NBA for the next 10 years, but you can't leave DeMarcus by himself without any help. Defenses need more than 1 thing to fear. With Dallas, you had a stifling defense around Dirk and 3 mega-efficient players around him. His supporting cast made teams pay for doubling up on Dirk. We need that same thing. We don't necessarily need amazing offensive players around Cousins, but players who make defenses pay when they decide to double up on him.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#14
I'm willing to defer to Malone on this one. He sees the kid everyday and knows his weaknesses and strengths at this time in his young career. Also, I don't think it's a big deal whether he starts or not. He's playing a good deal of minutes for a rookie, and at the end of games during crunch time. Lastly, he may be a better player than Thornton right now. But as IT is to Vasquez, so Ben might be to Thornton: just because you're a better player doesn't necessarily mean that you should start.
I wrote yesterday or in the middle of the night that I hoped very much that the coaching staff knew what was wrong with MT. If his problem has a solution, I would quiet down on my idea that Ben should start. If, however, this is the MT that we are going to see the rest of the season, then put in Ben. It is not an IT/Vasquez comparison in that the better player would come off the bench. It is so that the more reliable and clearly better long range shooter would be available to Boogie when he needs to pass out of a double or triple team. Right now Boogie has no target for his passes.

I think it makes a lot of difference who is on the court with Cuz.
 
#15
I'm willing to defer to Malone on this one. He sees the kid everyday and knows his weaknesses and strengths at this time in his young career. Also, I don't think it's a big deal whether he starts or not. He's playing a good deal of minutes for a rookie, and at the end of games during crunch time. Lastly, he may be a better player than Thornton right now. But as IT is to Vasquez, so Ben might be to Thornton: just because you're a better player doesn't necessarily mean that you should start.
I would go with Malone's judgement also. I don't feel competent to do a good job of evaluating Ben's strengths and weaknesses at this early point I his "sophomore/junior" year in college. Why hurry? Are we afraid of losing another game? Besides, Cousins needs to get his act together before we throw this young player under the wheels.
 
#16
I don't really mind him coming off the bench for now. He's still getting minutes, and he is gaining confidence at the same time.

When you look at all of the top picks this year, none of them are starting. Bennett, Oladipo, Porter (hurt but I'm sure Ariza would be starting over him at this time), Zeller, Len, Noel (hurt), and McLemore. I don't really see the rush in throwing him out there to start. Baby steps...
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#17
I would go with Malone's judgement also. I don't feel competent to do a good job of evaluating Ben's strengths and weaknesses at this early point I his "sophomore/junior" year in college. Why hurry? Are we afraid of losing another game? Besides, Cousins needs to get his act together before we throw this young player under the wheels.
Perhaps I didn't make my point but I think Ben can be the solution to getting Boogie's game going. Boogie can't do it with no support and that means more than just giving him the ball. It means giving him an option when the defensive swarm arrives to clog up the paint.
 
#18
I don't think Thornton flourishes in a half court setting with plays actually being run. That's not who he is. Therefore, I recommend we get rid of him ASAP, because it isn't going to get any better. We are going to continue to run plays and MT has been lost in preseason and this season so far for a great majority of the time. Ben should start, we really don't have anything to lose. Thornton can help a team that needs some bench scoring at the very least.
I think Malone knows that MT works better in a run and gun type of game. Malone is going to have to make a choice between bringing Ben along slowly, or putting the right group of guys together to win games now. MT needs to be on the floor with IT and the second unit. Ben needs to be on the floor with Vasquez. That would solve some issues immediately. Unfortunately, it appears that as of right now, the team is looking long term.
 
#19
Perhaps I didn't make my point but I think Ben can be the solution to getting Boogie's game going. Boogie can't do it with no support and that means more than just giving him the ball. It means giving him an option when the defensive swarm arrives to clog up the paint.
I think he's ready as well to start. I've been a huge fan of waiting and bringing him along slowly, but the stuff he's been doing translates well. Hustle, quick shooting, athleticism, getting out on the break, etc.

My only hesitation with putting him with the starters is you've gone from "Hey kid, go out and play your game and see what happens" to "Hey kid, we now need you to be the 2nd scorer for our starting unit." That's a lot of pressure for a rook to take on. Which, is why I think if you move him to the starters, that you need to move IT to the start as well. It keeps the pressure off him to HAVE to produce and he can continue to play loose and not force things.

For now, I think i'd give this starting unit another 5-10 games together to see if they can develop some chemistry. GV was brought in here for a reason (make Cousins life easier) and it'd give Thornton a chance to figure out his game. In the meantime, that also allows Ben to get more experience in low-pressure situations
 
#20
Not the rat.

I think we have the real deal in Ben. I think we have the next great shooter. He is drawing attention from experts when they see him. The latest was Dominique Wilkins who compared Ben to Ray Allen which seems to be an ever increasing theme started by Ben himself. Ben compares himself to Allen but in no bragging manner but as a statement of fact.

The consensus on this forum is that we should bring him along slowly. I don't agree at all unless we are simply waiting to see what happens with MT which is a worthwhile wait. If MT stays at his present level, I will be surprised and horribly disappointed.

Back to Ben. The skills are obvious. He is lightning quick on offense and can get himself open quite easily. It will take more time with Malone getting used to this mess he inherited to worry about how to use Ben - or should he wait? Ben does not seem to get rattled. A case in point is last game when he got caught out of position on defense (not blaming him here). His reaction was not to hang his head in befuddlement but to go chat with Malone during a time out/free throw/whatever it was. He is solid from the neck on up. He is surprisingly focused on his job and seems to not be overly bothered by screw ups or getting burned except to the extent of trying to figure out how to prevent such an occurrence from happening again.

He can shoot. I'll close the book on any more that could be said here. Does anyone doubt his shooting ability? Straight up, lots of lift, and a quick release into the basket. Sploosh! With his off the ball movement he should find himself open a lot. The team will need to get used to him as I have seen several times where he was open and simply ignored.

On the negative side he has no NBA left hand and this hurts him as an iso player. Will he develop it? I am sure that as the years pass he will improve a little but his primary skill is to catch and shoot especially after leaving a defender breathlessly chasing him. I am usually of the mind to play to play to a guy's positives and there is a lot to play to here. Can't ignore his inability to go left but many players have been able to score and be a big part of an offense with limited iso moves like Allen, Reggie Miller, etc

On defense he is a rookie but he is already learning. He got into a player's chest last game and eventually stole the ball. No foul. I think he'll be a very good defender but he's 20, OK?

If MT bombs out as a player, and I hope he doesn't, I say throw Ben into the fray. I don't think it will hurt him as I have mentioned above and I think the best way for him to learn is to have him on the court. I want him on the court with GV and Cuz. He will provide the kind of reliable outside shooting that Cuz needs so that the entire opposition defense doesn't crash in on him. As it is now, there is no outside threat of significant skill to strike fear into the opposition's defense. PPat was supposed to be a three point threat. I have never seen it and don't see it now. He had one good game but on a day in, day out basis, he is not someone that can draw the defense out to cover him. MT is an enigma. Neither GV or Salmons/Outlaw/Mbah a Moute are a threat.

For the sake of the team we need Ben with the starters. He wouldn't be the only rookie to start and if any rookie has the skills and mental stability to jump right in, it is Ben.

This could be a very bad year for the Kings. It would not be a lost year if some attention was paid to the further maturation of Cuz especially as a passer, Ben as an offensive threat, and GV as a facilitator. GV has to get used to who is on the court. It may take a few more games for Malone to get a total grasp of what he has but I expect changes not only with Ben but elsewhere.

Is it too early for all of this? Maybe but I don't think so. I still wouldn't mind seeing Ben getting major minutes and especially I would like to see if some chemistry could be created between he and Cuz. Cuz used to be an average passer but now he has no one to pass to. Insert Ben and the equation changes. We need Cuz in beast mode but not even Cuz can do it all without an outlet to pass to. Now I'm getting redundant but it all is intertwined.

I hope this doesn't derail the thread from my major focus but I'd like to see Ben, GV, Cuz, JT, and who the hell knows as a starting 5. Mbah A Moute was supposed to be a starter I thought. JT because he has been Boogie's wing man for several years and PPat is offering next to nothing. (PPat might benefit from a more free flowing style that occurs with IT at the helm.)

I cannot discuss Ben in isolation as this is a team.



Hello Glenn,

I agree with you for the most part. Though I say let Ben slide into the starting spot in a comfortable way. Let him get another 10-15 games under the belt coming off the bench first to continue to built his confidence. Let him see more defenses first and adjust. We don't want him to be thrown in after a couple good games and have to deal with him losing confidence if he doesn't play well.

The thing with MT is he is too much of an ISO player. For him, its either he has a great game or he struggles to find his role within a team offense where Cousins is the focal point and ball movement is preached. MT is not used to that. He jacks up off balanced 3 point shots because HE FEELS he is hot at the moment. Reminds me of a certain #24.

So in the long run, it is obvious Ben is the future at the 2. 20 games in, it's time for Ben to start. Hopefully we can find a taker for MT to get a late 1st rounder. Here's to hoping.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#21
Ben and IT should start and have the green light, let MT be the #1 chucker off the bench with Vasquez feeding him there. Cousins is playing and taking the exact same shots as he did last year playing with Thomas so you may as well have 3 legit threats on the floor and at least with Thomas/Ben jacking shot it might force Cousins to offensive rebound a bit more. With IT in the starting line up Ben is the #3 option which is perfect for him.

Ben is a stud stop wasting his time and let him work in the starting lineup.
 
#22
And, has IT really "hogged" the ball from DeMarcus? Maybe my eyes are lying to me, but it seems like IT has been more than willing to defer to him when they're on the floor together. They really haven't been on the floor together a whole lot this season. IT has gotten a bulk of his minutes saving the team from embarrassing 20 point losses with the starters sitting on the bench.

TBH, I don't give 2 you know whats if IT doesn't get other guys going. Guy has ridicoulous scoring/efficieny numbers and he's supposed to pass up shots to get JT and Chuck Hayes going? Or Travis Outlaw? Please.

If he's a willing passer to DeMarcus, then perhaps he's the better choice if GV doesn't get it going
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#23
If he's a willing passer to DeMarcus, then perhaps he's the better choice if GV doesn't get it going
He is because opposition PG's have zero to worry about against Vasquez meaning they don't fatigue at all during the game or get into foul trouble allowing them to decimate us. Thomas makes you work and like I said before I don't see any difference in Cousins shot selection with Vasquez.
 
#24
I love M16's playing style you can begin to assemble a team around players like Ben, IT and of course Cuz as for everyone else on the roster the jury is still out specifically on Vasquez, Patterson and to a smaller degree Jimmer everyone else should be let go or traded for expiring deals or 2nd rounders.
 
#25
And, has IT really "hogged" the ball from DeMarcus? Maybe my eyes are lying to me, but it seems like IT has been more than willing to defer to him when they're on the floor together. They really haven't been on the floor together a whole lot this season. IT has gotten a bulk of his minutes saving the team from embarrassing 20 point losses with the starters sitting on the bench.

TBH, I don't give 2 you know whats if IT doesn't get other guys going. Guy has ridicoulous scoring/efficieny numbers and he's supposed to pass up shots to get JT and Chuck Hayes going? Or Travis Outlaw? Please.

If he's a willing passer to DeMarcus, then perhaps he's the better choice if GV doesn't get it going
I'm not sure I would start Thomas BUT I do agree that the Kings should consider moving away from Cousins as our no. 1 scorer. Let's force feed our other starters - as ridiculous as that seems- and take the pressure off him and let the game come to him. What have we got to lose?
 
#26
I like MLM's game. I think we should be starting him and giving him 30 or so minutes a night. Watching him you can just tell he's going to be good. I think we should be starting IT with MLM and Cuz. I think that lineup will get the most production out of those three. JT in there as a rebounder and Salmons as another ball handler.
 
#27
Before this season started I was all for starting Marcus, as I thought we needed to showcase his contract and he was just the more refined player.. I also thought it was in his personality to relish taking back the starting role and would thrive under the new ownership/coaching.. Now we're heading to the point where Marcus is just an unwanted below par shooting guard who doesn't have the heart to put it out there every night.. The problem is two-fold.. I don't believe his contract is tradeable given its size and how he has played the last couple of years, but he has known to show cancer-like tendencies if he is benched and produce even worse as a backup. Personally I would give it about 6-7 more games to see if Thornton feels like playing this year, if not I would like Ben in and if Marcus doesn't like it send him to the end of the bench and let Jimmer come in as a backup
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#28
...Personally I would give it about 6-7 more games to see if Thornton feels like playing this year, if not I would like Ben in and if Marcus doesn't like it send him to the end of the bench and let Jimmer come in as a backup
I tend to agree. Thornton is just one of several more bitter pills with a big M on them our new ownership might have to swallow to get past the mess they were left with. Nobody said it was gonna be easy to undo all the stupid things that had been done.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#29
I like MLM's game. I think we should be starting him and giving him 30 or so minutes a night. Watching him you can just tell he's going to be good. I think we should be starting IT with MLM and Cuz. I think that lineup will get the most production out of those three. JT in there as a rebounder and Salmons as another ball handler.
Again, if you start IT and Ben you're left with absolutely NOTHING coming off the bench. It might end up that way, but I'm not ready to sign on for that quite yet.