Ben and Williams - worth a year's investment? (split)
- Thread starter Glenn
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ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Derrick will carve out a career for himself. He's just too much of a physical beast at the 3 position, not to. I'm still not convinced at all, with Ben. He missed another point blank critical layup
Glenn
Hall of Famer
We will see about Ben though won't we? I wouldn't casually dump him into a trade like cannon fodder. He wouldn't be the first poorly playing rookie to develop into a great player. I wouldn't look at what we are seeing and conclude that this is the best he will do. He's an excellent athlete. You certainly have to admit that. He was much better in college. I don't want to make a direct comparison to Jimmer but Jimmer looked incompetent his first two years much as Ben has his first half year - did I say half year - and Jimmer looks a lot better. All it would take for Ben is to get his shot to fall which was Jimmer's primary problem also. I expected nothing more from Jimmer than his excellent shooting and now he leads the NBA in 3 pt shooting. The difference between Jimmer and Ben is that Ben is the much better athlete and although far from perfect (poor handles), is much better than Jimmer. Hey, Ben just turned 21. Jimmer had 4 years in college.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
Ben has a lot of tools, no way you can give up on him until he is given at least 2 years to develop. But damn his hands are horrible i don't know how you fix that
TyFreak Evans
Bench
Chop his current ones off and give him a new pair.
John Galt
Starter
I still remember Derrick's first game with the Kings (or maybe not first game... but the one against the Clippers at home) - he did the most electrifying jams I'd ever seen up close. The repeat lob was for the ages and turned the crowd bonkers. He and Ben both... I think you just HAVE to give this a chance to work. Neither is paid a prohibitive salary so if they end up at the end of the bench, oh well. Their upside is pure showtime though. I understand Derrick can board, and Ben has a work ethic the coach seems to love. So yes I make this investment for sure. I love both those guys.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I have more confidence in McLemore than Williams.
Williams is too much the tweener - not a good enough creator, not flexible enough, smooth enough, or quick enough to guard a lot of 3s, but at the same time, not enough of a power player for the 4. Also, his flat-footedness is fairly commonplace. He doesn't have very good anticipation, or his head isn't into the game, or he's just not competitive enough. Maybe a mixture of all of the above. He's probably not going to start in the NBA, so he needs to make an impact on the defensive end, which he hasn't done for the most part.
McLemore may not be all that great either, but this is his first season, so there's no way I write him off. He has too much athletic ability. At this point, I just see a player who is very, very young. He probably needed to stay at Kansas for two more years. We might have to wait for his third season to see what he really can do. At least he has a great work ethic. Usually, guys with great work ethics and very good athletic ability end up doing well in the NBA.
Williams is too much the tweener - not a good enough creator, not flexible enough, smooth enough, or quick enough to guard a lot of 3s, but at the same time, not enough of a power player for the 4. Also, his flat-footedness is fairly commonplace. He doesn't have very good anticipation, or his head isn't into the game, or he's just not competitive enough. Maybe a mixture of all of the above. He's probably not going to start in the NBA, so he needs to make an impact on the defensive end, which he hasn't done for the most part.
McLemore may not be all that great either, but this is his first season, so there's no way I write him off. He has too much athletic ability. At this point, I just see a player who is very, very young. He probably needed to stay at Kansas for two more years. We might have to wait for his third season to see what he really can do. At least he has a great work ethic. Usually, guys with great work ethics and very good athletic ability end up doing well in the NBA.
I like Williams a lot more than Ben at this point. Ben is not a good shooter and he has some of the worst hands I have ever seen, especially for an NBA player. I have seen plenty of athletic guys who can jump out of the Gym but if you cant shoot or dribble then you are not going to last long.
macadocious
Starter
Ben has stone hands. I don't know if soft hands is something that can be taught, it's possible, but not highly probable.
Gary
All-Star
I don't think there's any issue in just having them on the team at a low price, but the bigger question is do we give him up in a trade? What would you have to be getting in return to send him to another team?
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
We need to remember what D-Will is fully capable of. If you go back and look at the highlights of that Clipper game and then also the Dallas game, when he went for a career high 31,...very impressive. He was feeling "let loose" at that point, almost "on top of the world" in terms of his career opportunities. It wasn't luck, it was just having his head and feelings in the right place.
It's all mental for him. If he figures out the mental game and how to "channel" his mojo, he can be an absolute beast at the 3 position. Rebounding included. He's gone over the top to get some unreal boards this year.
It hasn't been mentioned for a while, but I would still like to see him in the starting lineup playing with Rudy and JT. Gives us major physicality advantages and rebounding
Here's the Clipper game highlights. Note how he pushed the ball and setup Ben like nobody else has done this season...
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Williams thought he knew what his role was going to be when he came here. Unfortunately for him, he plays the same position as the newer new guy. Once Rudy got here, Williams was left wondering how and when he would/could contribute. I think we'll see him regain a lot of the things we liked about him when he first arrived. He and the rest of the team just need time to figure it all out.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Williams is already a serviceable bench guy. The question with him is defense, and whether he'll ever lock in or will continue to just have the wrong approach for where Malone wants to go. But he's already good in his bench role. So you say wait a year...with Williams you don't really have to. he's already here and moderately productive.
Ben is the real question. Basically has tools, but no game. Will he develop the game to go with the tools? Unclear. Improvement has been minimal thus far. You know the Celtics had this guy who was supposed to be able to shoot and could jump out of the gym a few years ago, name of Gerald Green. Being a great athlete =/= being a great basketball player.
The larger issue with Ben is just something I have been talking about for several months now: if we go forward with Cuz/Gay/IT it DOES NOT MATTER if Ben will one day be good or not. Because in the Cuz/Gay/IT setup there is no room for a "good" SG. Or rather an offensive SG. And on the other side of the ball all that "he's a good athlete so he'll be a good NBA defender" stuff has proven laughable. He's one of the very worst in the NBA this season. IT's fate is closely aligned with Ben's. If IT and Gay are the PG/SF, then Ben is NOT the SG, and you move him while you can still get any value at all (and on that front by waiting so long we trashed his value just as we did with TRob last year -- haven't met a Sacto Gm yet who makes the aggressive move early enough to get value before our guy's trade value erodes).
Throw in more than just an impression that we do not have a time schedule to sit around and wait for kids to grow up anymore, and its very shaky. Shaky enough that if I decided to keep IT as my starter in a week, I would move Ben at this deadline. If I did not, and brought in a replacement PG more interested in setting up guys. then I keep Ben, start him, and if he's still terrible by the end of the year go get a guy I can rely on in the offseason.
Ben is the real question. Basically has tools, but no game. Will he develop the game to go with the tools? Unclear. Improvement has been minimal thus far. You know the Celtics had this guy who was supposed to be able to shoot and could jump out of the gym a few years ago, name of Gerald Green. Being a great athlete =/= being a great basketball player.
The larger issue with Ben is just something I have been talking about for several months now: if we go forward with Cuz/Gay/IT it DOES NOT MATTER if Ben will one day be good or not. Because in the Cuz/Gay/IT setup there is no room for a "good" SG. Or rather an offensive SG. And on the other side of the ball all that "he's a good athlete so he'll be a good NBA defender" stuff has proven laughable. He's one of the very worst in the NBA this season. IT's fate is closely aligned with Ben's. If IT and Gay are the PG/SF, then Ben is NOT the SG, and you move him while you can still get any value at all (and on that front by waiting so long we trashed his value just as we did with TRob last year -- haven't met a Sacto Gm yet who makes the aggressive move early enough to get value before our guy's trade value erodes).
Throw in more than just an impression that we do not have a time schedule to sit around and wait for kids to grow up anymore, and its very shaky. Shaky enough that if I decided to keep IT as my starter in a week, I would move Ben at this deadline. If I did not, and brought in a replacement PG more interested in setting up guys. then I keep Ben, start him, and if he's still terrible by the end of the year go get a guy I can rely on in the offseason.
The thing that I really like about both Ben and Derrick is that they have the right skills and talent to be very good complimentary players. Both can score in bunches but they don't monopolize the ball, and their combination of athleticism and shooting stroke gives them the ability to either cut to the basket or spot up when our first and second options get double-teamed. They play well together on fast breaks too. Not many teams have two athletes like that streaking down the wings on every fast break. On a well constructed team, and with a little more experience and confidence, they could be key players for us.
I'm still personally of the opinion that letting Rudy get a big contract somewhere else might not be the worst thing in the world. We could build a better balanced lineup where only Cousins is consistently scoring 20+ per game and the defense doesn't know night to night where the rest of the shots are coming from. With a qualified PG and a defensive post presence I think a team like that has a lot of potential. (Exum/McLemore/Williams for instance with Cousins in the post looks like a physically dominant lineup that can beat you with strength and speed)
I'm still personally of the opinion that letting Rudy get a big contract somewhere else might not be the worst thing in the world. We could build a better balanced lineup where only Cousins is consistently scoring 20+ per game and the defense doesn't know night to night where the rest of the shots are coming from. With a qualified PG and a defensive post presence I think a team like that has a lot of potential. (Exum/McLemore/Williams for instance with Cousins in the post looks like a physically dominant lineup that can beat you with strength and speed)
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