Bee: Frustration reigns after loss to Minnesota
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nbrans
All-Star
I definitely agree that it's a tough situation -- it's a roster in transition, aging veterans... it's a terrible mix. Egos are going to get stepped on naturally, just by virtue of whomever Theus plays at power forward on any given night.
But that's all the more reason to coach with a style that brings people together and creates some sort of a shared sense of purpose rather than being a hardass. It's hard enough to keep guys happy enough to avoid implosion without them being shown up by the coach and having to worry that their next mistake is going to get them yanked. Then a bad situation just becomes explosive.
What is Theus trying to prove? Who cares about "accountability" at this point. This team is terrible!
Hopefully Theus will relax with the rules and treating grown men like teenagers and just coast with this team and play conflict manager until there are roster changes. Have a good time. Get into the lottery. Play an exciting style. Stop the yanking and the calling out in the media.
Rockmeister
All-Star
I didn't get to watch the game last night because I was still at work. Why did Martin get pulled out after 7 minutes in the first quarter? I was looking at the box score at that time and was wondering if he got hurt? Why was Martin pulled out in the third quarter?
I read Sam Amicks article in the Bee and it sounds like Reggie is losing the team. Salmons coming off the bench???? Why didn't the coach start him? I just don't get it. Yanking players??? Too bad he doesn't yank Mikki Moore.
Seriously, I agree with Brick. I could see this coming. I'm actually surprised it wasn't sooner. I was never a supporter of hiring Reggie Theus.
Let's just look forward to next year's draft because this is a really bad team.
I read Sam Amicks article in the Bee and it sounds like Reggie is losing the team. Salmons coming off the bench???? Why didn't the coach start him? I just don't get it. Yanking players??? Too bad he doesn't yank Mikki Moore.
Seriously, I agree with Brick. I could see this coming. I'm actually surprised it wasn't sooner. I was never a supporter of hiring Reggie Theus.
Let's just look forward to next year's draft because this is a really bad team.
bperiod
G-League
Rockmeister
All-Star
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/sports/kings/
November 15, 2007
From post-game to postgame
Ron Artest was supposed to be the post presence.
So he plays small forward, supplanting John Salmons in the starting lineup? So he hardly hits the paint, shooting mostly jumpers (albeit fairly well) as Salmons disappears from the offense?
We'll see how this situation unfolds, but Salmons has spent parts of the last three games upset with his role. And it didn't start with his quick exit from the locker room while Theus was discussing the game in the locker room afterward.
Salmons was less than thrilled to be pulled late in the game against Minnesota on Saturday, later saying about the situation "It was (disappointing). Everybody wants to finish the game, so I think that’s just human nature. That’s just being competitive."
It obviously didn't get much better. Asked about possibly losing his starting job the day before the game, Salmons said, "How do I look at it? Just like I always look at it. It is what it is."
What it is, as it stands, is a whole lot of griping early on in the season, including a few words between Theus and Kevin Martin during the latest T-Wolves' game and a handful of words exchanged between players and the coaching staff in earlier games. Salmons' situation may not be as simple as his feelings with his role, with whatever was said by Theus afterward likely playing a part. As Kings center Brad Miller correctly noted, Salmons' skills can't be lost with the return of Artest. Can Theus find the answer and restore some harmony on the home court?
November 15, 2007
From post-game to postgame
Ron Artest was supposed to be the post presence.
So he plays small forward, supplanting John Salmons in the starting lineup? So he hardly hits the paint, shooting mostly jumpers (albeit fairly well) as Salmons disappears from the offense?
We'll see how this situation unfolds, but Salmons has spent parts of the last three games upset with his role. And it didn't start with his quick exit from the locker room while Theus was discussing the game in the locker room afterward.
Salmons was less than thrilled to be pulled late in the game against Minnesota on Saturday, later saying about the situation "It was (disappointing). Everybody wants to finish the game, so I think that’s just human nature. That’s just being competitive."
It obviously didn't get much better. Asked about possibly losing his starting job the day before the game, Salmons said, "How do I look at it? Just like I always look at it. It is what it is."
What it is, as it stands, is a whole lot of griping early on in the season, including a few words between Theus and Kevin Martin during the latest T-Wolves' game and a handful of words exchanged between players and the coaching staff in earlier games. Salmons' situation may not be as simple as his feelings with his role, with whatever was said by Theus afterward likely playing a part. As Kings center Brad Miller correctly noted, Salmons' skills can't be lost with the return of Artest. Can Theus find the answer and restore some harmony on the home court?
Well how do you get to become a coach like Sloan or Popp unless you ACT like it. He's definitely emulating them, and I agree with Bajaden's coach. He's being CONSISTENT with his verbage. He's walking the talk. And sure it's "tough" love on some players, but he's ultimately doing what's best for them, the team and also the franchise's long term well-being.
I don't mind it that much, if these guys are truly "professionals".
Glenn
Hall of Famer
I have already mentioned that I am confused and alarmed at what is going on and if it wasn't clear, that's what I meant.
On the other hand, I didn't think this was going to be a good year and I thought we would lose the first 7 games so I am not surprised as to the record. I might even be q little encouraged if I hadn't seen a couple players essentially have a sit down strike in the middle of the game and one to dramatically depart the dressing room with a half dressed team mate following him.
It is horribly discouraging to think that this year might simply be one to be endured and not seen as a step towards rebuilding.
The season has many games to go so I'm not going to throw in the towel yet. The next game will be interesting.
And finally, I kinda hope the Maloofs keep their mouths shut about this and let Petrie, Theus, and the team either settle this or fail at it. Sometimes I think they get a little hysterical and over react e.g. attempting to recruit Phil Jackson when they already had a very good coach under contract. That was a major league public dis and hardly helpful.
On the other hand, I didn't think this was going to be a good year and I thought we would lose the first 7 games so I am not surprised as to the record. I might even be q little encouraged if I hadn't seen a couple players essentially have a sit down strike in the middle of the game and one to dramatically depart the dressing room with a half dressed team mate following him.
It is horribly discouraging to think that this year might simply be one to be endured and not seen as a step towards rebuilding.
The season has many games to go so I'm not going to throw in the towel yet. The next game will be interesting.
And finally, I kinda hope the Maloofs keep their mouths shut about this and let Petrie, Theus, and the team either settle this or fail at it. Sometimes I think they get a little hysterical and over react e.g. attempting to recruit Phil Jackson when they already had a very good coach under contract. That was a major league public dis and hardly helpful.
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nbrans
All-Star
If you're consistent and stupid it just means you're consistently stupid.
PurpleHaze
All-Star
Why all the panic over this footnote locker room gossip from Kings Fans after just 7 measly games with coach still experimenting with his rotations? The Amick article says Artest was being peacemaker (good) and that Salmons later went back inside the locker room after he presumably cooled off (good). A "benched" Salmons and Martin still played 26 and 35 minutes respectively against the TWolves after both were the NBA's #1 and #2 average minutes per game coming in at well over 40+.
The Kings should feel real lucky they're not coming completely unglued like their next opponent. "Starbury" was just fined nearly $200,000 for skipping a game, plus practice. He then fired away at Isiah with out-and-out blackmail, saying he could ruin his head coach with "dirt" he had on him. Lovely times in the Big Apple
The Kings should feel real lucky they're not coming completely unglued like their next opponent. "Starbury" was just fined nearly $200,000 for skipping a game, plus practice. He then fired away at Isiah with out-and-out blackmail, saying he could ruin his head coach with "dirt" he had on him. Lovely times in the Big Apple
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Why all the panic over this footnote locker room gossip from Kings Fans after just 7 measly games with coach still experimenting with his rotations? The Amick article says Artest was being peacemaker (good) and that Salmons later went back inside the locker room after he presumably cooled off (good). A "benched" Salmons and Martin still played 26 and 35 minutes respectively against the TWolves after both were the NBA's #1 and #2 average minutes per game coming in at well over 40+.
The Kings should feel real lucky they're not coming completely unglued like their next opponent. "Starbury" was just fined nearly $200,000 for skipping a game, plus practice. He then fired away at Isiah with out-and-out blackmail, saying he could ruin his head coach with "dirt" he had on him. Lovely times in the Big Apple
Reminds me so much of the Muss situation last year. Reports of discord filter out and are reflected on the court, but those who choose not to see it, who desperateley want the coach to work out, and a sheriff to ride into town, just refuse to admit it. But there is a stink lingering in the air again.
kennadog
Dog On It!
You can't just "act" like Pop or Sloan and expect that to work. We know Pop and Duncan are extremely close, for one. That doesn't happen by just being Mr. Nasty all the time.
Being consistent in expectations and rules isn't a problem at all. Treating every player as though they are exactly the same is a problem. Human beings are not one size fits all. People can't all be reached or motivated by the same treatment. As has been well established, reward is far more effective than punishment. Intermittent reward works better than constant reward. Punishment is the least effective way to motivate wanted behavior. It might gain compliance in the short term, but won't inspire someone to want to follow that leader for the long-term
A leader can't just demand respect, it's something that's earned. A good leader also does their best to put each person in a position where they can perform best. Once followers believe in the leader and they know the leader believes in them, they'll likely follow anywhere and put up with a lot to do so.
I sincerely hope that Theus can weather this storm and learn from it. He's a rookie head coach and one with a very thin resume. It's silly to assume Reggie knows exaclty how to be an effective NBA head coach and doesn't have a lot to learn. For the Kings' sake, let's hope he's a fast learner. Theus can't afford to win the battles (ego/power trips), but lose the war (the team). Actually the team and the fans won't fair well either.
Jerichoholic
Bench
This was bound to happen at some point, seasons are filled with highs and lows and with this team I would expect to see more lows than highs. But this will blow over when we win a couple games in a row, no process ever goes smoothly.
The simple fact is that this team is not very good, not just talent wise but even more so when it comes to blending together. We have 3 PF who all do the same thing which is basically nothing productive (Thomas, Shareef, & Moore). We have 4 swing players who all do the same thing, one on one players who either drive to the basket or shoot threes but none is either a good passer or if he is doesn't choose to pass (Martin, Salmons, Garcia, & Artest). We have 2 centers who look the same (Miller & Hawes). We only have 1 true point guard who is a shoot first player (Beno).
This will always be a problem regardless of who the coach is. The solution is to move some of these players and start defining roles and stick with those roles. If a player isn't happy with that role then he needs to be moved. Look at our great Kings team of 2002, every player brought something different to the table and each player's role was clearly defined.
The simple fact is that this team is not very good, not just talent wise but even more so when it comes to blending together. We have 3 PF who all do the same thing which is basically nothing productive (Thomas, Shareef, & Moore). We have 4 swing players who all do the same thing, one on one players who either drive to the basket or shoot threes but none is either a good passer or if he is doesn't choose to pass (Martin, Salmons, Garcia, & Artest). We have 2 centers who look the same (Miller & Hawes). We only have 1 true point guard who is a shoot first player (Beno).
This will always be a problem regardless of who the coach is. The solution is to move some of these players and start defining roles and stick with those roles. If a player isn't happy with that role then he needs to be moved. Look at our great Kings team of 2002, every player brought something different to the table and each player's role was clearly defined.
mcsluggo
Starter
is there?
When someone is shoving my head in the latrine hole, I have a hard time pulling out the smell of the rotten apple underneath the tree outside. (translation: Who can discern a bad coaching smell over the all-encompasing stench rising from the franchise in general right now?)
kennadog
Dog On It!
And Adelman was the coach. Experienced and a master at managing players and their egos, IMHO. How the coach managed those players was just as important as who the players were.
kupman
Starter
I had a very similar first reaction. I mean this is the same paper that reported "the fight in the locker room" between Bonzi and Peja not long ago, so who knows.
A couple of other thoughts I have had:
I have always thought that Artest needs to be dealt not because of his behavior problems (although an obvious consideration), but rather he does not make us a better team. He is a really good player, but I think that we might actually play better without him. (Artest to chicago for Noah/Thomas or to the Knicks for Lee; add in filler as needed).
The last thought is that I don't mind players getting mad after these losses. It shows that they care alot. A team that leaves the locker room smiling (or at least not mad) after a loss is a team that is well beyond troubled.
jcassio
Starter
This is my first major disappointment in Reggie as our head coach. Not because he's playing tough-love, but because I strongly feel that his ego got in the way of his coaching last night.
Yeah, we suck as a team. So what's new? But... we've had 3 players (Martin, Salmons & Garcia) who've been fun to watch and are giving us hope for the future. With last night's lineup, minutes given, and pissing contest with Kevin, Reggie gets nothing less than an F for the game. And what does Reggie's ego have to do with his starting lineup? Because the traditional lineup he used is what you would expect of a team that's shooting for the playoffs. But playing it safe with these misfits is not going to get us to the playoffs. We have too many weaknesses. Better to play the youngsters lots of minutes, try to be competitive, and get better. Is there a place for Artest in this? Yeah, at PF. Or trade him for one.
Yeah, we suck as a team. So what's new? But... we've had 3 players (Martin, Salmons & Garcia) who've been fun to watch and are giving us hope for the future. With last night's lineup, minutes given, and pissing contest with Kevin, Reggie gets nothing less than an F for the game. And what does Reggie's ego have to do with his starting lineup? Because the traditional lineup he used is what you would expect of a team that's shooting for the playoffs. But playing it safe with these misfits is not going to get us to the playoffs. We have too many weaknesses. Better to play the youngsters lots of minutes, try to be competitive, and get better. Is there a place for Artest in this? Yeah, at PF. Or trade him for one.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
To say that punishment isn't the way to motivate is pure nonsense. There has to be consquence for breaking the rules. If you park your car in a no parking zone, you must want a ticket. Why else would you park there. And yet your surprised when you get one? Rules are rules. Do you earn players respect by saying one thing and doing another, aka Musselman?
Fresno had it right when he said this is a team that is made up of parts that don't fit. I find it no accident that Reggie used Martin for his example. He showed the team that the star player is no different than anyone else when it comes to the rules. If he'll jerk Martin, then he'll jerk anyone. There has to be discipline on a team. When I said he was treating all the players the same, I was talking about fairness, not individual method. Every cake has different ingredients, and they get baked at different temperatures, but their still cakes.
I'am by no means comparing Reggie to Pop's and Sloan as far as coaching ability, but were not discussing X and O's here. Were discussing Philosphy. Reggie is imprinting his on the team. Change is hard, and some people won't. Those you get rid of, and now is the perfect time to find out who. This team is going nowhere anyway. If nothing else, its going to be entertaining to watch.
By the way, Sloan wasn't the most popular guy in the world at one time.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
It is true in business and true in basketball: don't discipline your employee/team publicly. It is humiliating. On national TV, maybe millions are seeing the punishment and the guys don't like being treated that way. They may deserve punishment but they also deserve respect.
There are other times to punish that are more reasonable and that's in the time outs, half time, and between games. Some coaches go out of their way not to publicly humiliate their players by taking them out a few plays after they screwed up. This way, the crowd does not link the yanking to any event and the discipline is betwen player and coach and not a public spectacle..
Don't treat them like little children (even if they behave that way.)
There are other times to punish that are more reasonable and that's in the time outs, half time, and between games. Some coaches go out of their way not to publicly humiliate their players by taking them out a few plays after they screwed up. This way, the crowd does not link the yanking to any event and the discipline is betwen player and coach and not a public spectacle..
Don't treat them like little children (even if they behave that way.)
nbrans
All-Star
Ever had a boss who rode your *** constantly, yelled at you even when it wasn't your fault, told other people they were unhappy with you, and treated you like crap?
And ever had a boss who let you do your thing, made sure you were happy and yeah, kept you accountable and didn't let things slide but for the most part treated you well?
Who did you work better for? I know I work better for the second kind, and most adults do as well.
There's a book right now called "The No A**hole" Rule about how A** make the worst bosses. That goes for life in general, not just sports.
For every Sloan there are 20 guys like Czar or Doug Collins who bounce out of the league because they can't relate to their players and just end up pissing everyone off. The coaches who let players be themselves within a structured environment, from Riley to Adelman to Phil Jackson to Popvich, are the ones who are both the best at what they do and who players enjoy playing for.
And ever had a boss who let you do your thing, made sure you were happy and yeah, kept you accountable and didn't let things slide but for the most part treated you well?
Who did you work better for? I know I work better for the second kind, and most adults do as well.
There's a book right now called "The No A**hole" Rule about how A** make the worst bosses. That goes for life in general, not just sports.
For every Sloan there are 20 guys like Czar or Doug Collins who bounce out of the league because they can't relate to their players and just end up pissing everyone off. The coaches who let players be themselves within a structured environment, from Riley to Adelman to Phil Jackson to Popvich, are the ones who are both the best at what they do and who players enjoy playing for.
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Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
jcassio
Starter
Punishment is a way to motivate some people. Problem is, those who are motivated by punishment always assume that everyone else is motivated by punishment.
That's exactly right. Pop and Sloan are obviously great coaches, but they've earned the right to coach the way they do. If Reggie was coaching a super young team like the Timberwolves, being a dictator might work. With the team we have, it just looks like it's causing problems.
Yanking Kevin Martin three minutes into the second half - number three scorer in the NBA, future of the franchise and apparent decent guy - is just a bonehead move in my opinion. It looks more like a power play than a coaching move.
I, for one, am not overreacting to anything that happened last night. If Salmons is pissed, he can go 'you know what'. He played 26 minutes and he's not as good as Artest is. Salmons has played real well for, what is it, 7 games? How about not going back into your shell and deferring to other players when the percieved better player comes back? To cap things off, last time I looked at the teams record, they weren't winning and Artest is the better player. That means his minutes go down but he can still be effective in those 26 minutes. Have no idea what happened to KMart when he got sat down. I have no problem with that at all and furthermore, have no idea and I don't care.
For some observers, Theus can't win at all. He's being strict in his coaching and people rip him for sitting down our percieved "star". If he just let's guys play without any consequences for meeting expectations, then he would get ripped for being soft and losing the team that way. Personally, I think he's softened his tance of yanking guys in and out. If guys can't deal with it, doesn't it say something about the players. I know Brad Miller stepped up recently and had as good a 3 game stretch as he's had in his Sacramento era playing career. I respect Miller for not whining and strapping it on and going out and playing like the former all-star he used to be. I'd like to see other players respond likewise.
There is no losing the team right now. It's how guys respond to the many conflicts and adversities that accompany an 82 game season. Theus isn't afraid to sit a guy down. It's how he manages the situations in the aftermath that is key. From earlier reports, Musselman tried to be everyone's friend and his players didn't have any consequences for their actions. Now Theus, who interviewed and spoke with these same players about last year, comes in with a different approach and holds players accountable. He's doing exactly as he should be doing.
For some observers, Theus can't win at all. He's being strict in his coaching and people rip him for sitting down our percieved "star". If he just let's guys play without any consequences for meeting expectations, then he would get ripped for being soft and losing the team that way. Personally, I think he's softened his tance of yanking guys in and out. If guys can't deal with it, doesn't it say something about the players. I know Brad Miller stepped up recently and had as good a 3 game stretch as he's had in his Sacramento era playing career. I respect Miller for not whining and strapping it on and going out and playing like the former all-star he used to be. I'd like to see other players respond likewise.
There is no losing the team right now. It's how guys respond to the many conflicts and adversities that accompany an 82 game season. Theus isn't afraid to sit a guy down. It's how he manages the situations in the aftermath that is key. From earlier reports, Musselman tried to be everyone's friend and his players didn't have any consequences for their actions. Now Theus, who interviewed and spoke with these same players about last year, comes in with a different approach and holds players accountable. He's doing exactly as he should be doing.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Exactly my point. May happen to Reggie also. Maybe not. Petrie is a patient person and may give him more reign than others would.
Have you ever had a previous boss who let things get lax and then a new guy takes over and holds you and your fellow employees accountable and makes you do your job? Your comfort zone is taken away? How do you or did you respond? Did you quit, pout, go into a funk, become a workplace cancer with other feloow employees who think that the new boss is an a** because...because...oh, just because....
Arena Skeptic
Bench
Couldn't we have figured this out long ago?
Okay, we have a roster with a lot of dead-wood contracts that makes players untradeable (Bibby, Artest, SAR, KT and Miller); two players who won't pass the ball to each other (Bibby and Artest, but since Bibby's out, this isn't a problem... Yet); a head coach who has never assisted anywhere in the NBA (you're kidding, right?); Artest, the big, beefy power guy who won't go inside, shoots too much, and turns it over a LOT, instead of passing to, oh, I don't know, ANYBODY; a 7 foot rookie who has the build of Mike Dunleavy and 4 knee surgerys by the age of 19, and who plays more like a small forward anyway...
Should I go on?
And now, after Salmons does a pretty good job as a starter, the inexperienced head coach decides that Udrih should start. And it looks to me as though Reggie isn't coaching Artest, which is something I feared would happen.
Look at the road losses. Heck, look at the wins, over Seattle (cough) and Minnesota (sputter). Blech. Even their wins weren't encouraging.
And you mean to tell me you didn't suspect this would happen?
I mean, seriously? With all the obvious warts this team has?
Next up, I think, is for Artest to go psycho on us again. He will. It's coming. Just as it's easy to predict that the Kings contracts will cause them problems on the free-agent market next summer, it's also easy to predict Artest serving another 8 game suspension. And I know I'm going to get attacked for saying this. I don't care. You all understand this is easy to see coming, even if you're in denial about it.
Okay, we have a roster with a lot of dead-wood contracts that makes players untradeable (Bibby, Artest, SAR, KT and Miller); two players who won't pass the ball to each other (Bibby and Artest, but since Bibby's out, this isn't a problem... Yet); a head coach who has never assisted anywhere in the NBA (you're kidding, right?); Artest, the big, beefy power guy who won't go inside, shoots too much, and turns it over a LOT, instead of passing to, oh, I don't know, ANYBODY; a 7 foot rookie who has the build of Mike Dunleavy and 4 knee surgerys by the age of 19, and who plays more like a small forward anyway...
Should I go on?
And now, after Salmons does a pretty good job as a starter, the inexperienced head coach decides that Udrih should start. And it looks to me as though Reggie isn't coaching Artest, which is something I feared would happen.
Look at the road losses. Heck, look at the wins, over Seattle (cough) and Minnesota (sputter). Blech. Even their wins weren't encouraging.
And you mean to tell me you didn't suspect this would happen?
I mean, seriously? With all the obvious warts this team has?
Next up, I think, is for Artest to go psycho on us again. He will. It's coming. Just as it's easy to predict that the Kings contracts will cause them problems on the free-agent market next summer, it's also easy to predict Artest serving another 8 game suspension. And I know I'm going to get attacked for saying this. I don't care. You all understand this is easy to see coming, even if you're in denial about it.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I have no idea what your talking about. All great players are self movtivated. I'm not talking about movtivation, I'm talking about comformity. About playing as a team. Martin needs no movtivation to play hard, but he has to play within the system of the coach.
Were like neighbors who live across the street from another family and watch them fight and argue and laugh together. We can make judgements from afar on their problems and how to solve them, but in reality, we have no clue whats going on. We really don't know what happened or what what was said. So this is really an exercise in futility.
My final word on the subject is. I don't see how you can criticize someone for doing exactly what he said he was going to do. Someone asked, how do you gain respect? You do it by being fair and equal and most of all by being consistant. You do that and they'll respect you. They may not like you, but they'll respect you. Because they know what to expect from you.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Give me a break! It was inevitable. Losing begets griping. And lousy talent begets losing. Now we're getting Muss redux. Everybody is blaming Theus for the frustrations, immaturity, and inadequecy of this team. GET OVER IT. Back up the coach. This chain of events was so predictable I wish I could I could have bet on this scenario at Las Vegas. Would have made a bundle. It's old "blame it on the coach" routine. Kevin's defense has been crap. They even mentioned that in the post game, a not-so-subtle reference to the displeasure of Theus. SAME THING THAT HAPPENED WITH MUSSELMAN. What do you want Theus to do - stand their like a light post and let Martin play crappy D? As with Salmons, Martin has got to grow up. This is obviously a trend. The offensive star who thinks it's good enough to score but not to play D. Well, it's not. And I, for one, is thankful that Theus has the cajones to do something about it, and this comes from a guy who didn't want Theus in the first place.
Where is your proof for that...after 1 game?