nebs
Starter
Vernon Davis seems to be roided. His good buddy, Shawne Merriman has already TESTED positive. But... you'll watch Vernon set TE records, right.
Barry Bonds thread (merged)
- Thread starter BawLa
- Start date
Classic bait and switch tactics, nebs, and I'm not falling for them.
Vernon Davis hasn't been linked to steroids. Even if he were, if you're trying to go on the guilt by association theme, then Barry Bonds is the last person you should be trying to defend.
MLB let this whole charade go on for only one reason - there are people who will overlook anything just so they can see someone set an impressive record.
Our standards are obviously different. That's fine... I couldn't possibly care less if you want to honor Bonds. What I continue to object to is those who act as though he's been wrongly accused, he's an innocent victim, etc. and try and sully other sports in an attempt to make Bonds' deeds somehow look less wrong.
Steroids are a problem in a lot of sports but Barry Bonds is the only athlete who is still out there profiting from the advantage he got from them. And why does he get away with it? Because, as I pointed out above, MLB is willing to look the other way because he's hitting home runs.
Big whoop-de-do.
Vernon Davis hasn't been linked to steroids. Even if he were, if you're trying to go on the guilt by association theme, then Barry Bonds is the last person you should be trying to defend.
MLB let this whole charade go on for only one reason - there are people who will overlook anything just so they can see someone set an impressive record.
Our standards are obviously different. That's fine... I couldn't possibly care less if you want to honor Bonds. What I continue to object to is those who act as though he's been wrongly accused, he's an innocent victim, etc. and try and sully other sports in an attempt to make Bonds' deeds somehow look less wrong.
Steroids are a problem in a lot of sports but Barry Bonds is the only athlete who is still out there profiting from the advantage he got from them. And why does he get away with it? Because, as I pointed out above, MLB is willing to look the other way because he's hitting home runs.
Big whoop-de-do.
Bait and switch? Falling for them? Guilt by association? Uhh ok.
Clean out your ears and open your eyes.
Nice response. And typical. Bonds supporters simply cannot maintain a cogent argument...
And that's okay. I couldn't possibly care less about who you idolize. Really. I've stated my objections. And I managed to do so without having to resort to veiled insults.
BawLa
Starter
So thats what this is about?! Money?! You care that MLB cashed in on the McGuire/Bonds/Giambi roid session years back so all of Barry's great accomplishments are rendered meaningless? Wow. Just, wow.
All of his god given talent and hard work is worth a million times what a little roiding could ever do.
The truth is, if people cared about steriods in all sports as much as they do with Barry Bonds, then I might be able to understand, but this hasn't been and never will be about steroids as much as it is about just Barry Bonds. People have always scrutinized Barry for not being the role model they wanted him to be. And a recent study by ESPN helps to show that race is definitely a factor in the way people see Bonds.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2861930
The stats basically show a large discrepancy between blacks and whites in the way they see Barry in all categories surrounding the record and steriods. I found it interesting.
One stat really stood out to me: 78% of blacks and 53% of whites believe Barry should be recognized as the home run leader should he pass Aaron. This to me means that at least half of the people out there understand what i've been trying to say with this thread all along.
Barry is the greatest. And with how healthy he is he may even get to 800. I challenge anyone who can't appreciate Bonds to go out and watch him now. Look at how he dominates the game. Watch a 42 year old man turn on the inside pitch like he's 22. And if you think he is still on roids then you have no reason to think anyone else in the game isn't roided up too.
When the same people that are calling out Barry start calling out every other suspected cheater in every sport, villainize them in public, and try to ruin their career, then I will understand and accept their views. The study ESPN did shows how racially separate the country still is. It begs the question, would Barry be recieving the same treatment if he were white?
"profiting" doesn't always refer just to money, BawLa.
And I cannot believe you're going to try and play the race card in this instance. I don't care what color he is; never have, never will. It's not about race, at least in my point. And I have stated my feelings enough about this in the past to not want to get bogged down in an endless argument about them again.
It isn't that Bonds is using steroids NOW that's the question, BTW. It's that when he did use them it enabled him to avoid some of the ravages of age that generally take their toll on players. And, despite an ever-increasing mountain of evidence, he's still in the game. And he's going to overcome the record of someone I truly admired... and he cheated to do it.
And I cannot believe you're going to try and play the race card in this instance. I don't care what color he is; never have, never will. It's not about race, at least in my point. And I have stated my feelings enough about this in the past to not want to get bogged down in an endless argument about them again.
It isn't that Bonds is using steroids NOW that's the question, BTW. It's that when he did use them it enabled him to avoid some of the ravages of age that generally take their toll on players. And, despite an ever-increasing mountain of evidence, he's still in the game. And he's going to overcome the record of someone I truly admired... and he cheated to do it.
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BawLa
Starter
First of all, I'm not calling you a racist. Second, I wasn't trying to play that card as much as I was trying to share a recent study that reveals race has more to do with it than most people think. Furthermore, I'll bet most of the white people that were surveyed would say exactly the same thing as you - that it's not about race - but the stats suggest otherwise.
And with respect to profiting I understand all of its contextual applications. That's why I did bring up and continue to bring up the fact that you need to watch what he has done, and especially what he's doing NOW, at a very old age, after 2 years of injuries, through all the public scrutiny, when there is supposedly no more cheating. You need to look at his career numbers. You need to understand that he is the best player of our time and deserves to be there. If you fail to respect all of the things I have pointed out throughout this thread about his skills as a baseball player and why he deserves to be at the top despite the controversy, then we have nothing to talk about.
And the potential dangers to health and the exaggerated stress on the bones from using steroids does way more damage to an athlete than it helps. When Barry was struggling with injuries in 2005 and 2006, he only had about 400 at-bats. He should've had 800 at-bats. Not counting the potential increase in home runs due to being healthy and getting consistent at-bats, he still had 30 over those injury seasons. If he was healthy, and had his normal career numbers, that makes for more than 50 extra homers. Personally, I don't think steroids was responsible for more than 50 homers in his career. Then you add the factors I've explained earlier in the thread, and it becomes easier to see why Barry is better than Hank, and simultaneously deserves to be the home run champ. Then you read that 'DeVany Home Run' essay that was brought up earlier in the thread and it becomes increasingly apparant that Barry is just very special.
In conclusion, steroids has never made Barry Bonds who he is as a player, Barry Bonds has. On the other hand, steroids has made this generation. And as sad as it is we must accept it and try to clean it up - in every sport. And most of all, people need to stop singling out Barry.
He would from me. Am I allowed to not like Barry Bonds?
kupman
Starter
I really would not characterize myself as a "Barry Bonds supporter," but that statement is a bit insulting and, furthermore, untrue. There are actually some great arguments in defense of what Barry has accomplished. It takes time to do a more critical analysis of the topic. Not many are willing to take the time.
Did Bonds take steroids? and if "yes" when and how long? undetermined
Do steroids enhance HR hitting? undetermined
Does Bonds pattern of HR hitting fall within natural variation? easily
BawLa
Starter
Very well said.
But why would people want to do critical analysis when other people can do a half-assed job for them?
BawLa
Starter
And right on cue...
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2863623
Updated: May 8, 2007, 2:57 PM ET
Ortiz not convinced Bonds a product of steroids
ESPN,.com news services
Count David Ortiz among those who isn't convinced Barry Bonds used illegal performance-enhancing drugs -- or if they really helped the San Francisco Giants outfielder make his run at Hank Aaron's home run record.
"To hit the ball, the guy makes it look easy, but it ain't. I don't know how you can have that swing, consistently. I don't know how steroids can do that," Ortiz told the Boston Herald. "There are supposed to be guys using steroids in the game, and there's nobody close to Barry Bonds. What's that mean? He was using the best [stuff]? Know what I'm saying?"
The Boston Red Sox designated hitter told the Herald that no one has proven that Bonds knowingly used steroids or other performance-enhancing substances -- and that even if it were proven, he's not sure it has made a difference.
"I don't look at it like that. I look at it hitting-wise, because I don't know what steroids can do to you as a baseball player. You've still got to swing the bat, man," Ortiz said. "If I ever use steroids, and then I know what the difference can be and I'm using them, I'll tell you, 'Yeah, whatever,' but I don't know what the feelings are when you use the steroids. But I can tell you how it feels to pull yourself together to swing the bat."
In fact, Ortiz isn't 100 percent certain he hasn't taken steroids himself. He told the Herald that when he was a young player in the Dominican Republic, he used to drink protein shakes for sale there. He explained he no longer does so because he can't be sure they don't include banned substances.
"I tell you, I don't know too much about steroids, but I started listening about steroids when they started to bring that [stuff] up, and I started realizing and getting to know a little bit about it," Ortiz told the Herald. "You've got to be careful. ... I used to buy a protein shake in my country. I don't do that any more because they don't have the approval for that here, so I know that, so I'm off of buying things at the GNC back in the Dominican. But it can happen anytime, it can happen. I don't know. I don't know if I drank something in my youth, not knowing it."
Bonds and the Giants are scheduled to visit Fenway Park for a June 15-17 interleague series, and Ortiz told the newspaper that Bonds deserves a warmer welcome than he will probably get from Red Sox Nation.
"He deserves respect," Ortiz told the Herald. "People are not going to give it to him because of all the bad things running around, this and that, but people need to realize. I've heard a lot of different things about Barry Bonds, but people should just admit it -- this guy's a bad [expletive]."
And Ortiz thinks commissioner Bud Selig should commit to being on hand when Bonds breaks Aaron's major league record of 755 home runs.
"He's just making things worse," Ortiz told the Herald. "He's the commissioner, there's nothing you can do about it. You can't be saying that. What are people going to think about the game? They'll be like, 'This game is a joke.' He should come, even if he doesn't want to."
While Big Papi doesn't have a problem with Bonds, his teammate, starting pitcher Curt Schilling, indicated that he does. In an interview on WEEI-AM in Boston, Schilling said that if Bonds is at home run No. 754 and Schilling is pitching during the Giants' visit to Fenway, he won't be giving Bonds a pitch to hit.
"Not on purpose," he said, according to The Boston Globe. "Hell no. I don't want to be Al Downing," he said, referring to the pitcher who gave up Aaron's record-tying 715th home run in 1974.
"I'm guessing they're going to try to make sure [the record-breaking home run] happens in San Francisco," Schilling said, according to the Globe.
"Hank Aaron not being there. [Selig] trying to figure out where to be. It's sad," Schilling said, according to the newspaper. "And I don't care that [Bonds is] black, or green, or purple, or yellow, or whatever. It's unfortunate ... there's good people and bad people. It's unfortunate that it's happening the way it's happening."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2863623
Updated: May 8, 2007, 2:57 PM ET
Ortiz not convinced Bonds a product of steroids
ESPN,.com news services
Count David Ortiz among those who isn't convinced Barry Bonds used illegal performance-enhancing drugs -- or if they really helped the San Francisco Giants outfielder make his run at Hank Aaron's home run record.
"To hit the ball, the guy makes it look easy, but it ain't. I don't know how you can have that swing, consistently. I don't know how steroids can do that," Ortiz told the Boston Herald. "There are supposed to be guys using steroids in the game, and there's nobody close to Barry Bonds. What's that mean? He was using the best [stuff]? Know what I'm saying?"
The Boston Red Sox designated hitter told the Herald that no one has proven that Bonds knowingly used steroids or other performance-enhancing substances -- and that even if it were proven, he's not sure it has made a difference.
"I don't look at it like that. I look at it hitting-wise, because I don't know what steroids can do to you as a baseball player. You've still got to swing the bat, man," Ortiz said. "If I ever use steroids, and then I know what the difference can be and I'm using them, I'll tell you, 'Yeah, whatever,' but I don't know what the feelings are when you use the steroids. But I can tell you how it feels to pull yourself together to swing the bat."
In fact, Ortiz isn't 100 percent certain he hasn't taken steroids himself. He told the Herald that when he was a young player in the Dominican Republic, he used to drink protein shakes for sale there. He explained he no longer does so because he can't be sure they don't include banned substances.
"I tell you, I don't know too much about steroids, but I started listening about steroids when they started to bring that [stuff] up, and I started realizing and getting to know a little bit about it," Ortiz told the Herald. "You've got to be careful. ... I used to buy a protein shake in my country. I don't do that any more because they don't have the approval for that here, so I know that, so I'm off of buying things at the GNC back in the Dominican. But it can happen anytime, it can happen. I don't know. I don't know if I drank something in my youth, not knowing it."
Bonds and the Giants are scheduled to visit Fenway Park for a June 15-17 interleague series, and Ortiz told the newspaper that Bonds deserves a warmer welcome than he will probably get from Red Sox Nation.
"He deserves respect," Ortiz told the Herald. "People are not going to give it to him because of all the bad things running around, this and that, but people need to realize. I've heard a lot of different things about Barry Bonds, but people should just admit it -- this guy's a bad [expletive]."
And Ortiz thinks commissioner Bud Selig should commit to being on hand when Bonds breaks Aaron's major league record of 755 home runs.
"He's just making things worse," Ortiz told the Herald. "He's the commissioner, there's nothing you can do about it. You can't be saying that. What are people going to think about the game? They'll be like, 'This game is a joke.' He should come, even if he doesn't want to."
While Big Papi doesn't have a problem with Bonds, his teammate, starting pitcher Curt Schilling, indicated that he does. In an interview on WEEI-AM in Boston, Schilling said that if Bonds is at home run No. 754 and Schilling is pitching during the Giants' visit to Fenway, he won't be giving Bonds a pitch to hit.
"Not on purpose," he said, according to The Boston Globe. "Hell no. I don't want to be Al Downing," he said, referring to the pitcher who gave up Aaron's record-tying 715th home run in 1974.
"I'm guessing they're going to try to make sure [the record-breaking home run] happens in San Francisco," Schilling said, according to the Globe.
"Hank Aaron not being there. [Selig] trying to figure out where to be. It's sad," Schilling said, according to the newspaper. "And I don't care that [Bonds is] black, or green, or purple, or yellow, or whatever. It's unfortunate ... there's good people and bad people. It's unfortunate that it's happening the way it's happening."
Yep, right on cue. David Ortiz may not be convinced but Henry Aaron appears to be...
Did you also take the time to quote and post the articles of those who are convinced Bonds knowingly used steroids?
The real point, the one you and those who support Bonds seem not to want to recognize, is that there are a number of people who think Bonds (and the others like him who used steroids) have done irreparable harm to the game of baseball.
I'm one of those. I'm not going to be swayed from my opinion because, when all is said and done, it doesn't really matter that much. It does, however, make me sad that the game my dad and I used to listen to on the radio (one of my fondest memories is staying up really late to listen to the Giants win in 22 innings) has become nothing more than a farce. I was a rabid Giants fan back then; the Giants-Dodgers games were what I looked forward to every year.
And I'm not trying to argue with you about anything. You can continue to post the articles that support your belief. Just don't continue to be so surprised and shocked and dismayed when people like me just won't buy it. I hope that clarifies my position because Barry Bonds is like Latrell Sprewell to me.
Did you also take the time to quote and post the articles of those who are convinced Bonds knowingly used steroids?
The real point, the one you and those who support Bonds seem not to want to recognize, is that there are a number of people who think Bonds (and the others like him who used steroids) have done irreparable harm to the game of baseball.
I'm one of those. I'm not going to be swayed from my opinion because, when all is said and done, it doesn't really matter that much. It does, however, make me sad that the game my dad and I used to listen to on the radio (one of my fondest memories is staying up really late to listen to the Giants win in 22 innings) has become nothing more than a farce. I was a rabid Giants fan back then; the Giants-Dodgers games were what I looked forward to every year.
And I'm not trying to argue with you about anything. You can continue to post the articles that support your belief. Just don't continue to be so surprised and shocked and dismayed when people like me just won't buy it. I hope that clarifies my position because Barry Bonds is like Latrell Sprewell to me.
kupman
Starter
^^^But I do think you do understand my point, though.
The public in general seems to be much more sympathetic towards Landis than the other two and he is the only one to have tested positive. Furthermore, people would like to say baseball is a farce because of the drug issue, yet the ratings for the NFL and the olympics are just fine. It is just a clear double standard that is curious to me.
The public in general seems to be much more sympathetic towards Landis than the other two and he is the only one to have tested positive. Furthermore, people would like to say baseball is a farce because of the drug issue, yet the ratings for the NFL and the olympics are just fine. It is just a clear double standard that is curious to me.
SLAB
Hall of Famer
G_M
Starter
Bonds cheated on wife and game', says Schilling
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070508221832.nchuvvn7&show_article=1
'Bonds cheated on wife and game', says Schilling
May 8 06:18 PM US/Eastern
Curt Schilling, the outspoken pitcher of the Boston Red Sox, levelled his guns on Tuesday at Barry Bonds, who needs 12 homers to break Hank Aaron's all-time home run record. Bonds has been at the centre of baseball's ongoing steroids controversy, but never has admitted to knowingly taking steroids.
Schilling must have thought otherwise during an interview with Boston-based sports radio station WEEI. "He (Bonds) admitted he used steroids. There's no gray area," Schilling said on WEEI. "He (Bonds) admitted cheating on his wife, cheating on taxes and cheating on the game."
On December 4, 2003, Bonds was one of several athletes forced to testify as part of the BALCO case, which centred around the San Francisco-area lab, its founder Victor Conte, and Greg Anderson - Bonds' personal trainer and longtime friend.
Anderson was indicted for illegal distribution of steroids. Bonds told the grand jury that he believed Anderson had given him flaxseed oil and arthritic balm, a substance that turned out to contain steroids.
"Hank Aaron not being there, the commissioner (Bud Selig) not knowing where he's going to be, it's sad," Schilling told WEEI. "I don't care if he's black, green, purple or yellow or whatever. It's just unfortunate there's good people and bad people."
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070508221832.nchuvvn7&show_article=1
Schilling must have thought otherwise during an interview with Boston-based sports radio station WEEI. "He (Bonds) admitted he used steroids. There's no gray area," Schilling said on WEEI. "He (Bonds) admitted cheating on his wife, cheating on taxes and cheating on the game."
On December 4, 2003, Bonds was one of several athletes forced to testify as part of the BALCO case, which centred around the San Francisco-area lab, its founder Victor Conte, and Greg Anderson - Bonds' personal trainer and longtime friend.
Anderson was indicted for illegal distribution of steroids. Bonds told the grand jury that he believed Anderson had given him flaxseed oil and arthritic balm, a substance that turned out to contain steroids.
"Hank Aaron not being there, the commissioner (Bud Selig) not knowing where he's going to be, it's sad," Schilling told WEEI. "I don't care if he's black, green, purple or yellow or whatever. It's just unfortunate there's good people and bad people."
If people are more sympathetic to Landis, it's probably because of the doubts cast on some of the French testing labs.
nebs
Starter
I'm not a Bonds supporter, VF. I'm a Giants fan. You didn't answer my question, you just pulled the Bonds supporter card.
BawLa
Starter
Floyd Landis was a nobody until he blipped on the radar after Lance retired, but was immediately found to be dirty. He didn't beat out Lance Armstrong in previous years. He wasn't challenging Lance for team leader. He helped Lance, sure, but showed no capability of being better or even as good as Lance. There is no evidence to support the idea that Floyd is one of the greatest cyclers in the history of the sport. In Floyd's case, steriods made the person. If he comes back after suspension and wins more Tour de Frances than Lance, then we can talk. Heck, we can talk if he even wins ONE.
Sprewell and Bonds are not even comparable. Lets run down the facts.
1. Sprewell choked his boss.
2. Sprewell is currently being sued for choking a 21 year old during sex.
3. Barry doesn't work well with people or media.
4. Barry unknowingly or knowingly took steroids, we don't know which one.
Spree had a nice career, but he's not playing because he's got some issues to deal with. Plus, I don't think any team wants to touch him anymore because of his controversy.
Barry, and furthermore all of the other players that used steroids at least once, still have value to their respective teams and that is why they are still in the league.
BawLa
Starter
The whole Hank Aaron interview is another media ploy to bash Barry. I watched what he said and how he said it. There is no reason why he should be there. Why would he want to sit in front of a bunch of cameras waiting to answer questions of how he feels about losing his lifetime achievement before the end of his death. The mere idea of him sitting there for how-ever-many games to watch Barry break his record is just silly. Furthermore I haven't met a single Barry Bonds fan/supporter that thinks Hank should be there.
There is also no reason why the Comissioner should be there. Unless if he wanted to improve his PR, but obviously with all of the controversy, that moment is nonexistent. There are many historic moments that occured in which the commissh wasn't there. Who cares about him?
VF21 said:
I wait for people to post such articles here and then I address the content.
VF21 said:
I do recognize those people. I would say I recognize them more than they recognize me. If you have a question about the way I feel about something then ask away.
VF21 said:
This isn't about arguing, this is about sharing what we feel and why. If your reasons are faulty, then I will say something, because I know you will do the same to me. But this isn't about arguing or who's wrong or right. That can't be done. If you openly accept my side and it doesn't change the way you think then thats fine. I will continue to accept your side for what it means to me.
Listen, I understand where you are coming from when you talk about the good 'ol days with your dad, but times have changed. The last few years have been the adjustment period, and some of us are ready to move on. Of course there will be a scar. But the time to be angry or sad is over. It's time now to accept what happened, make whatever adjustments are needed, and move on.
BawLa
Starter
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070508221832.nchuvvn7&show_article=1
'Bonds cheated on wife and game', says Schilling
May 8 06:18 PM US/Eastern
Curt Schilling, the outspoken pitcher of the Boston Red Sox, levelled his guns on Tuesday at Barry Bonds, who needs 12 homers to break Hank Aaron's all-time home run record. Bonds has been at the centre of baseball's ongoing steroids controversy, but never has admitted to knowingly taking steroids.
Schilling must have thought otherwise during an interview with Boston-based sports radio station WEEI. "He (Bonds) admitted he used steroids. There's no gray area," Schilling said on WEEI. "He (Bonds) admitted cheating on his wife, cheating on taxes and cheating on the game."
On December 4, 2003, Bonds was one of several athletes forced to testify as part of the BALCO case, which centred around the San Francisco-area lab, its founder Victor Conte, and Greg Anderson - Bonds' personal trainer and longtime friend.
Anderson was indicted for illegal distribution of steroids. Bonds told the grand jury that he believed Anderson had given him flaxseed oil and arthritic balm, a substance that turned out to contain steroids.
"Hank Aaron not being there, the commissioner (Bud Selig) not knowing where he's going to be, it's sad," Schilling told WEEI. "I don't care if he's black, green, purple or yellow or whatever. It's just unfortunate there's good people and bad people."
Schilling has been known to stir up a little controversy.
Of course he is willing to share his opinion, but gives no reasons why he believes what he says. Why is it sad Curt?
And what business does Curt Shilling have calling Barry out in public about his wife and taxes? Does he have proof of anything he said? Is this just a part of the grand jury testimony being leaked? Please Curt, come out and tell us what you think you know. Then tell us why you are attacking Barry.
Maybe Curt knew he could attack Barry because he does not have to face him on the diamond in the one time in forever that the Giants and Red Sox match up. I'll bet mum's the word if he had to face Barry. I hope their rotation gets messed up and Curt has to face Barry at home. How ironic it would be if Barry got 756 that day.
BawLa
Starter
"Curt Shilling was asked to be on the task force that Congress created against steriods but congress realized Shilling was a hypocrite and a liar and that he lied before congress, and was repremanded in front of congress. So I don't see how Shilling has any legitimacy in this conversation whatsoever, he lied before congress, he lied about steroids, and it's right there on tape, I don't know how he can even comment on this."
"Well he's your typical hypocrite, he's your typical politician, and that's what they do, they're liars, they just don't answer questions properly, and they have been arrogant about them."
These are Jose Canseco's words in response to what Curt said yesterday. He said this live after hearing the replay of Curt's words for the first time.
Of course anyone can bring into light the legitimacy of Jose's words. But he seems to be one of the most forthcoming voices in the steroid debacle. Jose was one of the key figures in the congressional hearing and therefore has credibility when it comes to knowing these things about Curt.
Some people think that Curt said those things because Clemens just got a bunch of publicity announcing his return to NY, and that little jealous Curt wanted a little spotlight of his own.
Again, I think Curt had no business calling out Barry's personal issues as if they had anything to do with the matter at hand. He just wanted some stagelight and took a cheapshot at Barry. I hope that more dirt about Shilling is revealed in the near future because it would be nice to see him burn in the public eye, but even if that doesn't happen, karma will take care of this jackal.
"Well he's your typical hypocrite, he's your typical politician, and that's what they do, they're liars, they just don't answer questions properly, and they have been arrogant about them."
These are Jose Canseco's words in response to what Curt said yesterday. He said this live after hearing the replay of Curt's words for the first time.
Of course anyone can bring into light the legitimacy of Jose's words. But he seems to be one of the most forthcoming voices in the steroid debacle. Jose was one of the key figures in the congressional hearing and therefore has credibility when it comes to knowing these things about Curt.
Some people think that Curt said those things because Clemens just got a bunch of publicity announcing his return to NY, and that little jealous Curt wanted a little spotlight of his own.
Again, I think Curt had no business calling out Barry's personal issues as if they had anything to do with the matter at hand. He just wanted some stagelight and took a cheapshot at Barry. I hope that more dirt about Shilling is revealed in the near future because it would be nice to see him burn in the public eye, but even if that doesn't happen, karma will take care of this jackal.
hoops4kings
Bench
PUBLIC APOLOGY FROM CURT SCHILLING on his blog at 38pitches.com
Everyone has days and events in life they’d love to push the rewind button on, yesterday was one of those days. Regardless of my opinions, thoughts and beliefs on anything Barry Bonds it was absolutely irresponsible and wrong to say what I did. I don’t think it’s within anyone’s right to say the things I said yesterday and affect other peoples lives in that way.
I’d love to tell you I was ambushed, misquoted, misinterpreted, something other than what it was, but I wasn’t. I’m thinking that waking up at 8:30 am to do the weekly interview we do with WEEI is probably not the greatest format and if you heard the interview it’s not hard to realize that I’m usually awake about 30-45 seconds before it begins. That’s still no excuse or reason to say what I did, or even answer the question that was asked. The question I was asked and the answer I gave yesterday affected a lot more people than just he and I. His wife, his children, his friends and his family were all affected by that, as were mine and my teammates.
As someone who’s made it very clear I have major issues with members of the media that take little or no pride in their work it’s the height of hypocrisy for me to say what I did, in any forum. I started this blog to give people a look into the life we live on and off the field, not to get into back and forths with people I don’t like or have issues with. Doing that will only make this a rant filled no content bunch of words.
Quite a few people have tossed Biblical references my way in the past week or so after the Thorne incident in Baltimore talking about turning the other cheek and being above the fray. I’ve often thought I do and try to be that way, but it’s very clear in the last two weeks I’ve done the exact opposite. That’s not to say I won’t respond when I feel someone’s calling me out and is wrong, but doing so in every instance will serve no one and only make me say and act like the very people I have issues with.
The only perfect human to walk the face of the earth died a few thousand years ago, that much I know. I am far from perfect and make more than my share of mistakes, which is something I have no problem with because that’s part of being human. However when my mistakes adversely affect other peoples lives, that’s a big deal. It was a callous, wreckless and irresponsible thing to say, and for that I apologize to Barry, Barry’s family, Barry’s friends and the Giants organization, my teammates and the Red Sox organization as well as anyone else that may have been offended by the comments I made.
SOURCE:
http://38pitches.com/2007/05/09/public-apology/#more-81
Everyone has days and events in life they’d love to push the rewind button on, yesterday was one of those days. Regardless of my opinions, thoughts and beliefs on anything Barry Bonds it was absolutely irresponsible and wrong to say what I did. I don’t think it’s within anyone’s right to say the things I said yesterday and affect other peoples lives in that way.
I’d love to tell you I was ambushed, misquoted, misinterpreted, something other than what it was, but I wasn’t. I’m thinking that waking up at 8:30 am to do the weekly interview we do with WEEI is probably not the greatest format and if you heard the interview it’s not hard to realize that I’m usually awake about 30-45 seconds before it begins. That’s still no excuse or reason to say what I did, or even answer the question that was asked. The question I was asked and the answer I gave yesterday affected a lot more people than just he and I. His wife, his children, his friends and his family were all affected by that, as were mine and my teammates.
As someone who’s made it very clear I have major issues with members of the media that take little or no pride in their work it’s the height of hypocrisy for me to say what I did, in any forum. I started this blog to give people a look into the life we live on and off the field, not to get into back and forths with people I don’t like or have issues with. Doing that will only make this a rant filled no content bunch of words.
Quite a few people have tossed Biblical references my way in the past week or so after the Thorne incident in Baltimore talking about turning the other cheek and being above the fray. I’ve often thought I do and try to be that way, but it’s very clear in the last two weeks I’ve done the exact opposite. That’s not to say I won’t respond when I feel someone’s calling me out and is wrong, but doing so in every instance will serve no one and only make me say and act like the very people I have issues with.
The only perfect human to walk the face of the earth died a few thousand years ago, that much I know. I am far from perfect and make more than my share of mistakes, which is something I have no problem with because that’s part of being human. However when my mistakes adversely affect other peoples lives, that’s a big deal. It was a callous, wreckless and irresponsible thing to say, and for that I apologize to Barry, Barry’s family, Barry’s friends and the Giants organization, my teammates and the Red Sox organization as well as anyone else that may have been offended by the comments I made.
SOURCE:
http://38pitches.com/2007/05/09/public-apology/#more-81
BawLa
Starter
That was a very nice apology that Curt placed on his blog site. But it doesn't quite do it for me. And here is why. If he had originally wrote what he said on the air on his blog, then I would be fine accepting his apology on the blog, but he didn't. He made those ridiculous statements ON AIR, and he therefore needs to apologize ON AIR. I want to hear sincerity in his voice just like I heard his anger/frustration in his voice when he made the original statement. I want to know that it is coming from his brain and voice and that it isn't some written statement that could potentially have been written by someone else entirely. Like his lawyer. Or whoever.
His apology is much appreciated. At least it was something. But for me to completely forgive Curt, I need to hear it from his voice.
His apology is much appreciated. At least it was something. But for me to completely forgive Curt, I need to hear it from his voice.
I mean no offense whatsoever, but your comment comes off as incredibly hypocritical to me. Shilling apologized; and he did so pretty quickly after the whole mess. You have mentioned many times you think people should be more accepting and forgiving. On one hand, you want people with my opinion to get it over it and accept that people are human and make mistakes, and that Bonds MAY have made a mistake in the past. So why is it Shilling's apology isn't enough and he has to do more?
Purple Reign
Starter
Great Piece on Barry Bonds and Racism
Racism shadows BondsBy Mark Kiszla Denver Post Staff Columnist &
The Denver PostArticle Last Updated:05/11/2007 12:36:51 AM MDT
Wearing a scowl and armed with a bat to cut through the hate, here comes Barry Bonds, bashing the holiest record in baseball and sticking it to the man.
We are given little choice but to love or loathe him.
Too often, the decision is black and white, divided along racial lines.
Bonds stirs passions that foster pre- judice, blinding both unapologetic supporters and angry detractors.
In the arena of American sports, where you're either designated a good guy or booed by strangers, Bonds is the new O.J.
"To see support for Bonds divided along racial lines is not surprising, given how polarizing race relations are in this country," said Peter Roby, director of the Center for the Study of Sport in Society at Northeastern University. "I wish I could tell you differently, but after all we have learned from the O.J. Simpson trial, it's unfortunately not surprising."
Of course, the San Francisco Giants outfielder has never been accused of anything worse than killing the integrity of baseball. And, frankly, the steroid charges against Bonds are flimsier with solid evidence than the testimony that failed to convict Simpson of murder in court.
Bonds, however, puts an unmistakable face on a heated social debate disguised in a baseball cap. Is the 42-year-old slugger an arrogant cheater or a victim of unfair persecution? When we choose sides to argue, race plays a role.
It's hard to dispute the black-and-white numbers in a poll recently released by ESPN and ABC News. Nearly 75 percent of black baseball fans said they were rooting for Bonds to break Hank Aaron's home-run record, while 60 percent of white respondents expressed an active wish to see Bonds fall short.
"You have a population of African-Americans who think they have been marginalized by their society and now you're asking black people how they feel about him breaking a home-run record long associated with Babe Ruth, in a sport that until 1947 refused to allow blacks to play," Roby said. "It's not really about Barry Bonds, it's about Black America. Right or wrong, that's the reality."
Bonds hit Denver on Thursday, declining pregame interview requests and staring with annoyance at cameras that stalked his every move during batting practice. In the dugout of the last- place Rockies, manager Clint Hurdle vowed to do everything in his power to avoid giving Bonds a pitch to hit.
Are we having fun yet?
Everywhere Bonds goes, his bat is a lightning rod for tension.
"I don't know if it's basic human nature to see things in black and white. But it's amazing to me when I hear people talking about how we have moved beyond racial issues in sports. No, we haven't," said Lee McElroy, president of the National Association of Collegiate Directors of Athletics.
The ultimate irony regarding prejudice is it knows no skin color. Whether home is Boise or the Bronx, it's easy for people of all races to mistrust what they do not know or understand.
Bigotry is not confined to any single ethnic neighborhood, and it slithers across national borders. As a teenager, I watched my high school shrivel and its spirit die from white flight in response to forced integration. As an adult, I have shared lunch in Africa with two black co-workers who refused to sit at the same picnic table because they were born to different tribes.
Any heart poisoned by fear can grow callous from hate, whether given or received.
Is Bonds a baseball hero or a sports villain?
Sometimes, our ideas of justice reveal more about the judge than the truth.
A white guy lounging on a sofa might condemn Bonds as a cheater quicker than his TV remote can switch the channel away from the stench that has slimed baseball with muscle-bulging chemicals.
A black man dressed in a No. 25 Giants jersey on the streets of San Francisco might stand by his homeboy, steadfastly ignoring the most damning findings from the book "Game of Shadows."
Prejudice can be as natural as breathing.
"Race plays a significant role in how we view Barry Bonds," said McElroy, who came of age in Texas during the 1960s. "You're talking to a 59-year-old man of color who grew up in the South under Jim Crow, in segregated schools. I went to college at UCLA and eventually grew beyond that experience. But there's a part of me deep inside that remembers how I grew up, and tends to empathize with the plight of somebody of color. You tend to want to give that person of color a break."
Nothing, from the steroids investigation by George Mitchell to the frown of commissioner Bud Selig, is going to stop Bonds from bashing No. 756 over the fence, and an asterisk will never deny the power of his achievement.
There's no line to record love or hate in the official scorebook.
Whether we choose to applaud or heckle Bonds, whether pitcher Curt Schilling disses the slugger personally or hitter David Ortiz stands up for him, the rationale might not always be as simple as whether his home runs have been fueled by flaxseed oil or steroids.
It's not all about what Bonds puts inside his body.
It's also about what lives in our hearts.
As Bonds rounds third and heads for home to stomp on the hallowed record, too many good American baseball fans, both white and black, view him with extreme prejudice. It doesn't mean we're bad. It only means we're human. AMEN
Racism shadows BondsBy Mark Kiszla Denver Post Staff Columnist &
The Denver PostArticle Last Updated:05/11/2007 12:36:51 AM MDT
Wearing a scowl and armed with a bat to cut through the hate, here comes Barry Bonds, bashing the holiest record in baseball and sticking it to the man.
We are given little choice but to love or loathe him.
Too often, the decision is black and white, divided along racial lines.
Bonds stirs passions that foster pre- judice, blinding both unapologetic supporters and angry detractors.
In the arena of American sports, where you're either designated a good guy or booed by strangers, Bonds is the new O.J.
"To see support for Bonds divided along racial lines is not surprising, given how polarizing race relations are in this country," said Peter Roby, director of the Center for the Study of Sport in Society at Northeastern University. "I wish I could tell you differently, but after all we have learned from the O.J. Simpson trial, it's unfortunately not surprising."
Of course, the San Francisco Giants outfielder has never been accused of anything worse than killing the integrity of baseball. And, frankly, the steroid charges against Bonds are flimsier with solid evidence than the testimony that failed to convict Simpson of murder in court.
Bonds, however, puts an unmistakable face on a heated social debate disguised in a baseball cap. Is the 42-year-old slugger an arrogant cheater or a victim of unfair persecution? When we choose sides to argue, race plays a role.
It's hard to dispute the black-and-white numbers in a poll recently released by ESPN and ABC News. Nearly 75 percent of black baseball fans said they were rooting for Bonds to break Hank Aaron's home-run record, while 60 percent of white respondents expressed an active wish to see Bonds fall short.
"You have a population of African-Americans who think they have been marginalized by their society and now you're asking black people how they feel about him breaking a home-run record long associated with Babe Ruth, in a sport that until 1947 refused to allow blacks to play," Roby said. "It's not really about Barry Bonds, it's about Black America. Right or wrong, that's the reality."
Bonds hit Denver on Thursday, declining pregame interview requests and staring with annoyance at cameras that stalked his every move during batting practice. In the dugout of the last- place Rockies, manager Clint Hurdle vowed to do everything in his power to avoid giving Bonds a pitch to hit.
Are we having fun yet?
Everywhere Bonds goes, his bat is a lightning rod for tension.
"I don't know if it's basic human nature to see things in black and white. But it's amazing to me when I hear people talking about how we have moved beyond racial issues in sports. No, we haven't," said Lee McElroy, president of the National Association of Collegiate Directors of Athletics.
The ultimate irony regarding prejudice is it knows no skin color. Whether home is Boise or the Bronx, it's easy for people of all races to mistrust what they do not know or understand.
Bigotry is not confined to any single ethnic neighborhood, and it slithers across national borders. As a teenager, I watched my high school shrivel and its spirit die from white flight in response to forced integration. As an adult, I have shared lunch in Africa with two black co-workers who refused to sit at the same picnic table because they were born to different tribes.
Any heart poisoned by fear can grow callous from hate, whether given or received.
Is Bonds a baseball hero or a sports villain?
Sometimes, our ideas of justice reveal more about the judge than the truth.
A white guy lounging on a sofa might condemn Bonds as a cheater quicker than his TV remote can switch the channel away from the stench that has slimed baseball with muscle-bulging chemicals.
A black man dressed in a No. 25 Giants jersey on the streets of San Francisco might stand by his homeboy, steadfastly ignoring the most damning findings from the book "Game of Shadows."
Prejudice can be as natural as breathing.
"Race plays a significant role in how we view Barry Bonds," said McElroy, who came of age in Texas during the 1960s. "You're talking to a 59-year-old man of color who grew up in the South under Jim Crow, in segregated schools. I went to college at UCLA and eventually grew beyond that experience. But there's a part of me deep inside that remembers how I grew up, and tends to empathize with the plight of somebody of color. You tend to want to give that person of color a break."
Nothing, from the steroids investigation by George Mitchell to the frown of commissioner Bud Selig, is going to stop Bonds from bashing No. 756 over the fence, and an asterisk will never deny the power of his achievement.
There's no line to record love or hate in the official scorebook.
Whether we choose to applaud or heckle Bonds, whether pitcher Curt Schilling disses the slugger personally or hitter David Ortiz stands up for him, the rationale might not always be as simple as whether his home runs have been fueled by flaxseed oil or steroids.
It's not all about what Bonds puts inside his body.
It's also about what lives in our hearts.
As Bonds rounds third and heads for home to stomp on the hallowed record, too many good American baseball fans, both white and black, view him with extreme prejudice. It doesn't mean we're bad. It only means we're human. AMEN
Last edited:
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
The unmentioned subtext being that Barry Bonds is not passing Babe Ruth -- he is passing Hank Aaron, another black player. But a black player who did it the right way, with class, in the face of true and virulent racism that in no way could be traced back to anything he ever did other than break a white man's record (assuming Babe was in fact caucasian).
Bonds on the other hand...well let's just say I am really really hoping it breaks it on the road in Milwaulkee. The response should be classic.
Bonds on the other hand...well let's just say I am really really hoping it breaks it on the road in Milwaulkee. The response should be classic.
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