Balancing the Roster (w/ CHA & PHX)

[twslam07]

---------------------------------------------------

CHA Gets: Richaun Holmes & #36
CHA Gives: Mason Plumlee & PJ Washington
Why for CHA? They avoid giving Washington a big payday and going into the tax. Get an upgrade at C who’s cost controlled and get an early 2nd to help replace the youth.

PG - Ball
SG - Rozier / Bouknight
SF - Hayward / Oubre
PF - Bridges / McDaniels / Thor
C - Holmes / Jones / Richards

---------------------------------------------------

PHX Gets: Davion Mitchell
PHX Gives: Cameron Johnson
Why for PHX? Saves them from having to give Johnson a big payday and use those $s elsewhere (Ayton). They also get a perfect complement to Booker at PG in Mitchell who’s mentor is already CP3. He’ll be able to learn under his wing for a few years and eventually hand over the reigns.

PG - Paul / Mitchell / Payne
SG - Booker / Shamet
SF - Bridges / Craig
PF - Crowder / Saric
C - Ayton

---------------------------------------------------

SAC Gets: Mason Plumlee, Cameron Johnson, & PJ Washington
SAC Gives: Richaun Holmes, Davion Mitchell, & #36
Why for SAC? Johnson and Washington would be excellent fits at SF and PF next to Fox and Sabonis long term. Both are solid defenders, great shooters, and good decision makers. Would still have our 2022 1st to add a great piece.

PG - Fox
SG - DiVincenzo / Davis
SF - Barnes / Holiday / Harkless
PF - Washington / Johnson / Lyles / Metu
C - Sabonis / Plumlee / Len

---------------------------------------------------

 

[Capt. Factorial]

This trade is highly dependent on who we draft this year. If we draft Ivey, then something like this could make sense. But there's a pretty good chance that we either end up drafting one of the three top bigs (on a lotto hit) or we get a wing like Mathurin/Griffin/Davis or a forward like Murray that makes this a lot less of a "balancing" trade and could even trend towards "imbalance".

I'm not 100% on board with the PJ Washington hype - he hasn't really shown all that much so far - but Holmes is a good player at a position where we may be going another direction, and Washington isn't bad value. Since the Mitchell/Johnson swap is completely independent of the Charlotte trade, I'd be a lot more likely to go with just the Charlotte side alone, and keep Mitchell.

 

[twslam07]

This trade is highly dependent on who we draft this year. If we draft Ivey, then something like this could make sense. But there's a pretty good chance that we either end up drafting one of the three top bigs (on a lotto hit) or we get a wing like Mathurin/Griffin/Davis or a forward like Murray that makes this a lot less of a "balancing" trade and could even trend towards "imbalance".

I'm not 100% on board with the PJ Washington hype - he hasn't really shown all that much so far - but Holmes is a good player at a position where we may be going another direction, and Washington isn't bad value. Since the Mitchell/Johnson swap is completely independent of the Charlotte trade, I'd be a lot more likely to go with just the Charlotte side alone, and keep Mitchell.

I feel like drafting a PF would only lead to the imbalance you speak of. If we jump up in the lottery, then you're left with that imbalance with Smith, Holmgren, & Banchero being at the top, but I feel like you could slot any of Ivey, Griffin, Sharpe, Mathurin, or Davis at the SG spot and have a balanced roster. For instance, if we took Griffin, our starting lineup would be ...

PG - Fox
SG - Griffin
SF - Barnes
PF - Washington
C - Sabonis

...and our bench would be really solid & deep with...

PG - DiVincenzo
SG - Davis
SF - Holiday
PF - Johnson
C - Plumlee

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I feel like drafting a PF would only lead to the imbalance you speak of. If we jump up in the lottery, then you're left with that imbalance with Smith, Holmgren, & Banchero being at the top, but I feel like you could slot any of Ivey, Griffin, Sharpe, Mathurin, or Davis at the SG spot and have a balanced roster. For instance, if we took Griffin, our starting lineup would be ...

I guess I just don't see DDV as a great backup PG. With a hypothetical Griffin draft you are proposing this lineup (reiterated from your post, but on one line):

Fox/DDV
Griffin/Davis
Barnes/Holiday
Washington/Johnson
Sabonis/Plumlee

While I would prefer to skip the Mitchell/Johnson portion of the trade and go with:

Fox/Mitchell
DDV/Davis
Griffin/Holiday
Barnes/Washington
Sabonis/Plumlee

Obviously trading Mitchell for Johnson results in an overall bigger lineup, but I think the positional fit is overall better if you don't do that.

 

[twslam07]

I guess I just don't see DDV as a great backup PG. With a hypothetical Griffin draft you are proposing this lineup (reiterated from your post, but on one line):

Fox/DDV
Griffin/Davis
Barnes/Holiday
Washington/Johnson
Sabonis/Plumlee

While I would prefer to skip the Mitchell/Johnson portion of the trade and go with:

Fox/Mitchell
DDV/Davis
Griffin/Holiday
Barnes/Washington
Sabonis/Plumlee

Obviously trading Mitchell for Johnson results in an overall bigger lineup, but I think the positional fit is overall better if you don't do that.

I agree that DiVincenzo's fit at PG is not ideal. However, Holiday and Davis expire after the following season so we could see a minute distribution like the one I pasted below if we keep the core in tact and bring in a cheap backup PG & C.


PG - Fox (34 min) / Backup PG (14 min)
SG - Griffin (20 min) / DiVincenzo (28 min)
SF - Barnes (12 min) / Johnson (28 min) / Griffin (8 min)
PF - Washington (28 min) / Barnes (20 min)
C - Sabonis (34 min) / Backup C (14 min)

Fox - 34 min
Sabonis - 34 min
Barnes - 32 min
Griffin - 28 min
Washington - 28 min
Johnson - 28 min
DiVincenzo - 28 min
Backup PG - 14 min
Backup C - 14 min

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Why do we have to give up Mitchell in this scenario? I just like the Washington deal straight up, if we have to take on Plumlee gross but ok. Frees us to draft Benn if he's available or another guy who can flex between the 2/3 and still have tons of playing time for Fox/Mitchell/DDV as "guards".

 

[The_Jamal]

Why do we have to give up Mitchell in this scenario? I just like the Washington deal straight up, if we have to take on Plumlee gross but ok. Frees us to draft Benn if he's available or another guy who can flex between the 2/3 and still have tons of playing time for Fox/Mitchell/DDV as "guards".

Yeah, the nice thing is Plumlee is an expiring and is honestly still a pretty solid role player. You can run similar sets with him that we will with Sabonis because he's sneakily a great big man passer. The real prize is PJ anyway, to plug in as the spacer next to Sabonis.

The Cam/Mitchell deal just doesn't make as much sense anymore with Hali off the roster. As awesome as Cam is you're putting basically all the ball-handling ability into Fox's hands and you just created another hole by needing another playmaker/ball-handler. I can see it if we drafted Ivey, but virtually everyone else (the 3 bigs, Mathurin, Griffin, Murray, even Davis) aren't projected to step in and handle a significant playmaking/ball-handling role.

I wonder if they'd be interested in a Barnes rental? We take the Shamet and Saric contracts off their hands with Cam (Shamet a 2 year deal, Saric an expiring) and they get Barnes for a title push. They shed the Shamet contract and upgrade Cam in the short-term to get the most they can out of their current title window.

We secure the Barnes replacement long-term while aging down the core quite a bit. Shamet is still a useful spacer too, despite weirdly being one of the most overrated role players in the league the last few years.

 

[SacTownKid]

Yeah, the nice thing is Plumlee is an expiring and is honestly still a pretty solid role player. You can run similar sets with him that we will with Sabonis because he's sneakily a great big man passer. The real prize is PJ anyway, to plug in as the spacer next to Sabonis.

The Cam/Mitchell deal just doesn't make as much sense anymore with Hali off the roster. As awesome as Cam is you're putting basically all the ball-handling ability into Fox's hands and you just created another hole by needing another playmaker/ball-handler. I can see it if we drafted Ivey, but virtually everyone else (the 3 bigs, Mathurin, Griffin, Murray, even Davis) aren't projected to step in and handle a significant playmaking/ball-handling role.

I wonder if they'd be interested in a Barnes rental? We take the Shamet and Saric contracts off their hands with Cam (Shamet a 2 year deal, Saric an expiring) and they get Barnes for a title push. They shed the Shamet contract and upgrade Cam in the short-term to get the most they can out of their current title window.

We secure the Barnes replacement long-term while aging down the core quite a bit. Shamet is still a useful spacer too, despite weirdly being one of the most overrated role players in the league the last few years.

You're right, with the moves Monte made Plumlee even though he's a horrendous defender on pick and roll he would actually fit as a great backup passing big so that the Kings can run some of the same high post sets w/o Sabonis.

 

[Tetsujin]

You're right, with the moves Monte made Plumlee even though he's a horrendous defender on pick and roll he would actually fit as a great backup passing big so that the Kings can run some of the same high post sets w/o Sabonis.

Or we skip the middle man and sign Boogie in free agency.

 

[miltonap]

Stop trying to get rid of Mitchell.

He's literally one of the best things to happen to this franchise in the last 15 years.

People with his drive and work ethic don't grow on trees.

I think he's a diamond in the rough.

And for a franchise that's been soft and absolutely awful on defense for the last 15 years, he's not someone you trade.

Simply from a culture standpoint, you don't trade Mitchell.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Stop trying to get rid of Mitchell.

Obviously a rookie isn't going to be the guy we got in summer league his full rookie campaign but I just don't see why many are so eager to ship him even after we moved from Haliburton. (which is odd because many of these people screamed bloody murder about giving up on young talent)

 

[miltonap]

Obviously a rookie isn't going to be the guy we got in summer league his full rookie campaign but I just don't see why many are so eager to ship him even after we moved from Haliburton. (which is odd because many of these people screamed bloody murder about giving up on young talent)

I don't know what people expect.

They see him miss shots and 3 pointers and free throws and think he sucks or something.

Not realizing he can practically get off a shot at will (he has elite quickness and nasty iso moves).

The shot will come, the 3pt line isn't even the same, pretty crazy to expect SO much when he's just a rookie.

There's learning pains that everyone needs to go through.

I really don't care about his age. His intangibles are invaluable and unlearnable

 

[twslam07]

Stop trying to get rid of Mitchell.

He's literally one of the best things to happen to this franchise in the last 15 years.

People with his drive and work ethic don't grow on trees.

I think he's a diamond in the rough.

And for a franchise that's been soft and absolutely awful on defense for the last 15 years, he's not someone you trade.

Simply from a culture standpoint, you don't trade Mitchell.

It's not that I don't like Mitchell. I do. However, if the plan is to build around Fox, a Fox/Mitchell backcourt doesn't seem ideal to me. You ideally would like to have someone who...

1. Is a great defender
2. Is a great shooter
3. Has the size/length to defend opposing SGs

Mitchell obviously checks off #1, but his shooting is questionable at this stage. He did shoot .447 from 3 as a senior in college, but his previous seasons he shot .324 or below. His FT% in college has been poor (.657 in college) even in his senior season when he shot the 3 ball well (.641). So far in the pros, he has a...

• .361 10-16ft FG%
• .373 16ft-3pt FG%
• .322 3P%
• .593 FT%

Nothing about those numbers are attractive in terms of finding a shooter next to Fox. Now to Mitchell's credit, he has had a .347 3P% the last 4 months but during the same 4 month stretch he has had a .583 FT%. At 23 years old, I'm not overly confident that he can become the type of shooter we'd want next to Fox.

The last bullet point is questionable as well as I don't think either Fox or Mitchell have the size to guard opposing SGs on a routine basis. Fox measurables at the combine were:

• 6'2" w/o shoes
• 6'6.5" wingspan
• 8'4" standing reach
• 169.6 lbs

And Mitchell's measurables at the combine were:

• 6'0" w/o shoes
• 6'4.25" wingspan
• 8'0.5" standing reach
• 202.4 lbs

Again, I don't think it's ideal to have these guys trying to check opposing SGs night in & night out.

Even the On/Off stats suggest they are not an ideal pairing at this point:

• Fox On / Mitchell Off = -2.2 Net Rtg
• Mitchell On / Fox Off = -2.9 Net Rtg
• Fox On / Mitchell On = -9.9 Net Rtg

So if they don't appear to be an ideal backcourt pairing, then we have these options:

1. Have Mitchell come off the bench (which limits the overlap where Fox & Mitchell are on the court together)
2. Trade Mitchell
3. Trade Fox

#2 & #3 I'm okay with exploring based on the value coming back to us, but I'm not a massive fan of #1 considering we spent the 9th pick on a player to backup our fringe-star PG. I'd much rather see if we can re-allocate Mitchell's value into a better fitting piece that could one day start and be a good complement to both Fox & Sabonis. I think Cameron Johnson can easily slot in as a great fitting piece between those two guys.

 

[ESP47]

Stop trying to get rid of Mitchell.

He's literally one of the best things to happen to this franchise in the last 15 years.

People with his drive and work ethic don't grow on trees.

I think he's a diamond in the rough.

And for a franchise that's been soft and absolutely awful on defense for the last 15 years, he's not someone you trade.

Simply from a culture standpoint, you don't trade Mitchell.

I'm not on board with trading Mitchell unless it was an absolute no brainer but as it currently sits, he's one of the worst big minute players in the NBA. He has a really long way to go to merely become average.

Fox was also in a similar situation his rookie year and he turned out fine but he was also 3 years younger than Davion as a rookie.

I like the idea of Davion as a poor man's Donovan Mitchell on offense with PatBev type defense but none of that is a guarantee. He could even more easily be a complete bust because so far the data has him in bust territory.

So far all we have are flashes from him. He shows the ability to hit the 3pt shot and he shows the ability to get to the rim quite easily at times. At the same time, he's a very poor finisher at the rim, very poor at getting to the free throw line and very poor at running the offense. I think he can kind of kill 2 birds with 1 stone by initiating contact at the rim to get to the FT line. That will help mask his finishing abilities.

His running of the offense has me the most concerned. He's the least efficient scorer on the team and I don't have the stats but I'm guessing he takes the most shots of anyone when he's on the floor. He's not particularly good in the pick and roll and usually winds up dribbling the air out of the ball and putting up a shot. I will say that his shot selection isn't particularly terrible most of the time but he's just not very good at putting the ball in the bucket in any way. He either has to get better at that or the offense needs to be restructured to where he's not out there running the show on his own. I think it's fairly apparent that he excels when he starts because he gets to play off of guys like Sabonis and Haliburton instead of running the show himself off the bench.

 

[Section 101]

Obviously a rookie isn't going to be the guy we got in summer league his full rookie campaign but I just don't see why many are so eager to ship him even after we moved from Haliburton. (which is odd because many of these people screamed bloody murder about giving up on young talent)

Except is Mitchell young talent? My issue with him is the same as buddies, they were basically 5th year seniors.

Let this sink in. Fox is only 15 months older than Mitchell.

 

[twslam07]

I wonder if they'd be interested in a Barnes rental? We take the Shamet and Saric contracts off their hands with Cam (Shamet a 2 year deal, Saric an expiring) and they get Barnes for a title push. They shed the Shamet contract and upgrade Cam in the short-term to get the most they can out of their current title window.

We secure the Barnes replacement long-term while aging down the core quite a bit. Shamet is still a useful spacer too, despite weirdly being one of the most overrated role players in the league the last few years.

This is an interesting idea. Although, I think the trade works if it is just Shamet/Johnson for Barnes or Saric/Johnson for Barnes. I don't think you need to include both Shamet & Saric to make salaries match up.

PG - Fox / Mitchell
SG - DiVincenzo / Davis
SF - Johnson / Holiday / Harkless
PF - Washington / Saric / Lyles / Metu
C - Sabonis / Plumlee / Len

Pretty good looking young team (not even including our 2022 1st too).

 

[Section 101]

I guess I just don't see DDV as a great backup PG. With a hypothetical Griffin draft you are proposing this lineup (reiterated from your post, but on one line):

Fox/DDV
Griffin/Davis
Barnes/Holiday
Washington/Johnson
Sabonis/Plumlee

While I would prefer to skip the Mitchell/Johnson portion of the trade and go with:

Fox/Mitchell
DDV/Davis
Griffin/Holiday
Barnes/Washington
Sabonis/Plumlee

Obviously trading Mitchell for Johnson results in an overall bigger lineup, but I think the positional fit is overall better if you don't do that.

I see DDV in the Doug Christie roll. He can bring the ball up and make plays, but you don't want that full time/primary.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Except is Mitchell young talent? My issue with him is the same as buddies, they were basically 5th year seniors.

Let this sink in. Fox is only 15 months older than Mitchell.

He's young for the purpose of cost controlling his next 3 years and RFA status that follows his rookie deal, so yes.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1514703666036494352

dude has an albatross of a contract and is always injured but would also give us a reliable off-ball player on the wing for the thirty games he’s active. Us taking back his contract in a PJ trade could potentially mean we wouldnt need to give up any draft capital.

Holmes/Barnes/Justin for Hayward/PJ/2022 TOR 2nd rounder? Not really feeling this move myself but throwing it out as an “option”

 

[SacTownKid]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1514703666036494352

dude has an albatross of a contract and is always injured but would also give us a reliable off-ball player on the wing for the thirty games he’s active. Us taking back his contract in a PJ trade could potentially mean we wouldnt need to give up any draft capital.

Holmes/Barnes/Justin for Hayward/PJ/2022 TOR 2nd rounder? Not really feeling this move myself but throwing it out as an “option”

Oh **** naw. Barnes is actually quite important now. I think the Kings can get a home town discount in the summer should they turn this around.

 

[The_Jamal]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1514703666036494352

dude has an albatross of a contract and is always injured but would also give us a reliable off-ball player on the wing for the thirty games he’s active. Us taking back his contract in a PJ trade could potentially mean we would need to give up any draft capital.

Holmes/Barnes/Justin for Hayward/PJ/2022 TOR 2nd rounder?

I think the timing actually does make sense. He's still a good player, you're just taking on his injury risk. And he's up for UFA when Sabonis is, so rather than commit to 31 year old Barnes on another long-term deal after next season, you could shed that salary while getting an upgrade in the short-term to make a playoff push the 2 seasons. And in theory, he's an awesome, awesome fit next to Fox/Sabonis; secondary wing playmaker, elite spacing, great 3rd option. And PJ is someone we've all identified as a great potential fit next to Sabonis. Just adds another talented young player to the core.

Fox
DDV
Hayward
PJ
Sabonis

I mean.. yeah. On paper, that's an excellent starting 5 with real complimentary skill-sets. It's a bet on Haywards health, but seems like a decent risk to take.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1514703666036494352

dude has an albatross of a contract and is always injured but would also give us a reliable off-ball player on the wing for the thirty games he’s active. Us taking back his contract in a PJ trade could potentially mean we wouldnt need to give up any draft capital.

Holmes/Barnes/Justin for Hayward/PJ/2022 TOR 2nd rounder? Not really feeling this move myself but throwing it out as an “option”

Feels like an overpay even if it isn't. How long is Hayward's contract and can they throw in a first instead of a 2nd?

 

[Tetsujin]

I think the timing actually does make sense. He's still a good player, you're just taking on his injury risk. And he's up for UFA when Sabonis is, so rather than commit to 31 year old Barnes on another long-term deal after next season, you could shed that salary while getting an upgrade in the short-term to make a playoff push the 2 seasons. And in theory, he's an awesome, awesome fit next to Fox/Sabonis; secondary wing playmaker, elite spacing, great 3rd option. And PJ is someone we've all identified as a great potential fit next to Sabonis. Just adds another talented young player to the core.

Fox
DDV
Hayward
PJ
Sabonis

I mean.. yeah. On paper, that's an excellent starting 5 with real complimentary skill-sets. It's a bet on Haywards health, but seems like a decent risk to take.

I guess the big thing would be us still maintaining control of our pick and using it for additional wing depth/Hayward insurance. And we’d have our MLE as well.

So something like
Fox/Davion
DDV/Davis/Monk
Hayward/(Mathurin or Griffin or Sharpe)
PJ/Lyles
Sabonis/Jones/Len/Queta

 

[Tetsujin]

Feels like an overpay even if it isn't. How long is Hayward's contract and can they throw in a first instead of a 2nd?

So his contract is a year longer than Barnes and about 30 million a year (as opposed to Barnes 20 million). The Hornets unfortunately have their picks tied up in protections and Stepien Rule nonsense thanks to the Kai Jones trade so it might be hard to extract any major draft capital from them beyond a future pick swap or something.

 

[The_Jamal]

Feels like an overpay even if it isn't. How long is Hayward's contract and can they throw in a first instead of a 2nd?

Hayward is up in 2 years. Barnes is up after next year, which is why this deal is somewhat intriuging. If you managed to keep Hayward healthy (Giant, giant if obviously) and get PJ on top of it, this would be a massive win for the Kings. Hayward is better than Barnes and you potentially find your 4 compliment to Sabonis.

Also I'm not thrilled about the prospect of having to give 31 year old Barnes another long-term deal that likely won't be cheaper than 4/60.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

So his contract is a year longer than Barnes and about 30 million a year (as opposed to Barnes 20 million). The Hornets unfortunately have their picks tied up in protections and Stepien Rule nonsense thanks to the Kai Jones trade so it might be hard to extract any major draft capital from them beyond a future pick swap or something.

It looks like they own their pick this year, in that event they could draft for us and put that player in the final package? Better than a future second even if not the deepest draft.

 

[SacTownKid]

Hayward is up in 2 years. Barnes is up after next year, which is why this deal is somewhat intriuging. If you managed to keep Hayward healthy (Giant, giant if obviously) and get PJ on top of it, this would be a massive win for the Kings. Hayward is better than Barnes and you potentially find your 4 compliment to Sabonis.

Also I'm not thrilled about the prospect of having to give 31 year old Barnes another long-term deal that likely won't be cheaper than 4/60.

The great thing about Barnes is by that point the Kings will KNOW if he is worth that to them.

 

[cwebb2002]

Give me cody martin (5M s/t) instead of plumblee and i do the charlotte portion of this trade for sure.