Balancing the First and Second Units
- Thread starter Jdbraver137
- Start date
Well it’s actually funny that we’re even having this back and forth when it seems you’re willing to give it more for Zion alone than I would. How do you reconcile that?
As for the Pelicans being last in the West, they’ve had a lot of injuries this year…
I’m really not. Especially when you consider their advanced impact stats, contracts, and age. But I’ll ask it again…what type of return do you think LaVine can get? And what type of return do you think DeRozan can get?
Again, you’re arguing with yourself. I didn’t propose attaching all of the available picks and swaps to my proposal.
My preference is to rebuild at this point as I don’t see a viable way for us to add a player who can be a #1 option on a top team unless that said player is flawed (Zion, Durant, etc.). It IS a risky move, but if our owner is dead set on continuing to compete in the short term, I’d rather watch 3-4 years of a Zion led team trying to make some noise vs. watching 3-4 years of a low ceiling team that I know will be continuously participating in the play-in tournament.
Perhaps that’s a difference between us and what we prefer to consume as fans.
As for the Pelicans being last in the West, they’ve had a lot of injuries this year…
- Zion has missed 37 games
- Jones has missed 35 games
- Ingram has missed 33 games
- Murray has missed 24 games
- Alvarado has misssed 24 games
- Murphy has missed 16 games
- McCollum has missed 14 games
I’m really not. Especially when you consider their advanced impact stats, contracts, and age. But I’ll ask it again…what type of return do you think LaVine can get? And what type of return do you think DeRozan can get?
Again, you’re arguing with yourself. I didn’t propose attaching all of the available picks and swaps to my proposal.
My preference is to rebuild at this point as I don’t see a viable way for us to add a player who can be a #1 option on a top team unless that said player is flawed (Zion, Durant, etc.). It IS a risky move, but if our owner is dead set on continuing to compete in the short term, I’d rather watch 3-4 years of a Zion led team trying to make some noise vs. watching 3-4 years of a low ceiling team that I know will be continuously participating in the play-in tournament.
Perhaps that’s a difference between us and what we prefer to consume as fans.
Yes, their team, with the healthiest Zion has ever been, "decimated" the league to 3 more wins than us last year. Yippee!
I have no clue what LaVine could bring with one year less on his contract and a career best year on shooting, etc., he's had this year. Likely more than what we paid to get him.
I am not arguing with myself. You threw out the hypothetical of all the picks going out and said it may take that to bring in those players. You really should explain it better if that's not what you meant, because the implication was clear. Why mention it if you didn't think it was reasonable? You even said as much:
Please explain exactly how this isn't saying it could take all those picks in your trade.
I'd rather keep the picks and try for a superstar that way than trading them all for a constantly injured ("flawed" in your words) player that most years won't net you even 30 games a season of play (assuming he keeps playing at the same rate this year he's not hitting 30 again). That's what I would "prefer to consume" as a fan.
Edit: and let's be clear: your stated goal is to get Zion. You aren't proposing this trade if Zion isn't the centerpiece. This isn't a trade for the other players with Zion as a throw-in. That's the star of the show you want to get. And that's the part I'm REALLY not down with.
For Giannis (or whatever) I can understand the haul. He's never played less than 61 games a year and typically is playing about 72 games a year. That's pretty reasonable. But not for a high-risk player that plays less than 30 games most years.
I have no clue what LaVine could bring with one year less on his contract and a career best year on shooting, etc., he's had this year. Likely more than what we paid to get him.
I am not arguing with myself. You threw out the hypothetical of all the picks going out and said it may take that to bring in those players. You really should explain it better if that's not what you meant, because the implication was clear. Why mention it if you didn't think it was reasonable? You even said as much:
Please explain exactly how this isn't saying it could take all those picks in your trade.
I'd rather keep the picks and try for a superstar that way than trading them all for a constantly injured ("flawed" in your words) player that most years won't net you even 30 games a season of play (assuming he keeps playing at the same rate this year he's not hitting 30 again). That's what I would "prefer to consume" as a fan.
Edit: and let's be clear: your stated goal is to get Zion. You aren't proposing this trade if Zion isn't the centerpiece. This isn't a trade for the other players with Zion as a throw-in. That's the star of the show you want to get. And that's the part I'm REALLY not down with.
For Giannis (or whatever) I can understand the haul. He's never played less than 61 games a year and typically is playing about 72 games a year. That's pretty reasonable. But not for a high-risk player that plays less than 30 games most years.
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Decimated “us” not “the league.” I think you misread that part of my post. I never mentioned that the Pelicans roster in totality would be a top team. It appears you made that jump yourself (similar to the jump you made with the proposal). Noticing a trend here 
You also have to keep in mind that we’re not simply adopting the NOP team as our own. We’re adding a lot of their high impact players (Zion, Murphy, Jones, Alvarado) with our own high impact players (Monk, Ellis, Murray, Sabonis, Valanciunas).
You have no clue what LaVine’s value is? What are we even discussing then if you have no position on the trade value of our players? If you’re going to be appalled by a trade, I’d imagine you’d have some idea of what their value is; otherwise, you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing.
I really think you are at this point.
My position has been clear especially in the follow-up replies, but you continue to hold onto it. Why?
As for the specific part you quoted, me questioning if NOP would accept a trade with all of those assets is different than what I am willing to give up in a trade. It takes two to tango, and I’m not overly clear on how much NOP values Zion, Murphy, Jones, and Alvarado.
That all sounds great on paper but let’s get specific & realistic (because at the end of the day, that’s actually what matters)…which “superstar” are you trading for exactly? And what package do you think we can offer that will beat out the rest of the competition?
You also have to keep in mind that we’re not simply adopting the NOP team as our own. We’re adding a lot of their high impact players (Zion, Murphy, Jones, Alvarado) with our own high impact players (Monk, Ellis, Murray, Sabonis, Valanciunas).
You have no clue what LaVine’s value is? What are we even discussing then if you have no position on the trade value of our players? If you’re going to be appalled by a trade, I’d imagine you’d have some idea of what their value is; otherwise, you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing.
I really think you are at this point.
My position has been clear especially in the follow-up replies, but you continue to hold onto it. Why?
As for the specific part you quoted, me questioning if NOP would accept a trade with all of those assets is different than what I am willing to give up in a trade. It takes two to tango, and I’m not overly clear on how much NOP values Zion, Murphy, Jones, and Alvarado.
That all sounds great on paper but let’s get specific & realistic (because at the end of the day, that’s actually what matters)…which “superstar” are you trading for exactly? And what package do you think we can offer that will beat out the rest of the competition?
Decimated “us” not “the league.” I think you misread that part of my post. I never mentioned that the Pelicans roster in totality would be a top team. It appears you made that jump yourself (similar to the jump you made with the proposal). Noticing a trend here
You also have to keep in mind that we’re not simply adopting the NOP team as our own. We’re adding a lot of their high impact players (Zion, Murphy, Jones, Alvarado) with our own high impact players (Monk, Ellis, Murray, Sabonis, Valanciunas).
You have no clue what LaVine’s value is? What are we even discussing then if you have no position on the trade value of our players? If you’re going to be appalled by a trade, I’d imagine you’d have some idea of what their value is; otherwise, you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing.
I really think you are at this point.
My position has been clear especially in the follow-up replies, but you continue to hold onto it. Why?
As for the specific part you quoted, me questioning if NOP would accept a trade with all of those assets is different than what I am willing to give up in a trade. It takes two to tango, and I’m not overly clear on how much NOP values Zion, Murphy, Jones, and Alvarado.
That all sounds great on paper but let’s get specific & realistic (because at the end of the day, that’s actually what matters)…which “superstar” are you trading for exactly? And what package do you think we can offer that will beat out the rest of the competition?
You also have to keep in mind that we’re not simply adopting the NOP team as our own. We’re adding a lot of their high impact players (Zion, Murphy, Jones, Alvarado) with our own high impact players (Monk, Ellis, Murray, Sabonis, Valanciunas).
You have no clue what LaVine’s value is? What are we even discussing then if you have no position on the trade value of our players? If you’re going to be appalled by a trade, I’d imagine you’d have some idea of what their value is; otherwise, you’re just arguing for the sake of arguing.
I really think you are at this point.
My position has been clear especially in the follow-up replies, but you continue to hold onto it. Why?
As for the specific part you quoted, me questioning if NOP would accept a trade with all of those assets is different than what I am willing to give up in a trade. It takes two to tango, and I’m not overly clear on how much NOP values Zion, Murphy, Jones, and Alvarado.
That all sounds great on paper but let’s get specific & realistic (because at the end of the day, that’s actually what matters)…which “superstar” are you trading for exactly? And what package do you think we can offer that will beat out the rest of the competition?
I am not arguing for the sake of arguing. The point is, you are advocating trading away almost all of our future draft picks and a couple of our best players for (primarily) a frequently injured player, who typically plays less than 30 games a season (with a reasonable extrapolation on this season), and a couple of ancillary players in return. I can have an opinion on that, whether or not I have an opinion on the trade value of any particular player on our team at some hypothetical point in the future. What if LaVine gets injured before the end of the year? What if he goes on a tear and scores 40 a game on 55/45/95 splits and wins MVP when the Kings win 80% of the rest of their games? It's all hypothetical BS on that front.
Injury history; however, is not hypothetical, and if Zion was indeed healthy don't you think he'd be playing more than 18 games in the first 55 this season?
Your position was certainly clear (at least to me) in your post I originally replied to and you keep insisting I "misunderstood" what you were saying. This is the first time you attempted to really clarify it, and as such I still have no idea what your actual proposal is for this. Apparently you are throwing out hypotheticals you think are reasonable (6 unprotected first rounders plus pick swaps) and then saying that you don't think it is reasonable? Whatever. Have a great afternoon. I'm done trying to get concrete answers instead of a tapdance around the topic.
And I said keep the picks. Use them if necessary. If not, trade them at some point in the future. I'm not the one making up all the hypotheticals here, you are. I'm not playing your game.
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Second option is where we are at and frankly it’s bad cause teams below us will catch as as well next year. I’m positive KD won’t agree to come here so that’s completely off the table we could target Lauri Markennen as well. He doesn’t raise the ceiling like Zion but it balances out better and the shooting with Lavine, Keegan, and Lauri is elite
Isn’t one of this years a covid year with a short season? Either way if he’s playing 60+ games in two of five seasons I don’t care I’m taking that risk for two playoff runs. Beats picking at 13 next few years cause SA will pass us in the standing by next year and depending on what Pheonix gets for KD we might not even be a play in soon. Hell if NO gets good players for Zion that’s another team passing us as soon
You literally ignored the other part of my response. So let’s try this again.
The point was not to become the Pelicans but to add the best of both worlds (Pelicans & Kings) so your point about how that Pelicans team finished is irrelevant.
Again, if you don’t have a POV on the value that is being sent out, how do you know if the trade is of poor value? You must have some sort of value assigned to LaVine in your head especially since you referred to him in a way that he’d hold substantial value (when you referred to him as an all star). Just be honest about what you think that valuation is.
You mentioned that I’m primarily trading for Zion. This is incorrect. I wouldn’t be surprised if a package of Murphy, Jones, and Alvarado returned more than a package of just Zion, and I think this is where a lot of the disconnect between us is…
Did I say Zion has been healthy this year? Again, who are you arguing against? What point are you arguing against?
I think this is as close as I’ll get to an apology for the misunderstanding but I’ll take it.
Again, you said DeRozan, Carter, and 3 1sts for Zion was reasonable. I think that’s 1 asset too many yet you’re hell bent on saying I’m the one willing to sell the farm when your valuation of a fair offer for Zion is more than mine. Do you see how that logic breaks down?
What is wrong about posters posting hypothetical trade ideas? That’s a large part of what NBA forums are about.
The point was not to become the Pelicans but to add the best of both worlds (Pelicans & Kings) so your point about how that Pelicans team finished is irrelevant.
Again, if you don’t have a POV on the value that is being sent out, how do you know if the trade is of poor value? You must have some sort of value assigned to LaVine in your head especially since you referred to him in a way that he’d hold substantial value (when you referred to him as an all star). Just be honest about what you think that valuation is.
You mentioned that I’m primarily trading for Zion. This is incorrect. I wouldn’t be surprised if a package of Murphy, Jones, and Alvarado returned more than a package of just Zion, and I think this is where a lot of the disconnect between us is…
- You think that I proposed to trade every asset under the sun for Zion (this is false)
- You think the trade proposal is mainly just about getting Zion (this is false)
Did I say Zion has been healthy this year? Again, who are you arguing against? What point are you arguing against?
I think this is as close as I’ll get to an apology for the misunderstanding but I’ll take it.
Again, you said DeRozan, Carter, and 3 1sts for Zion was reasonable. I think that’s 1 asset too many yet you’re hell bent on saying I’m the one willing to sell the farm when your valuation of a fair offer for Zion is more than mine. Do you see how that logic breaks down?
What is wrong about posters posting hypothetical trade ideas? That’s a large part of what NBA forums are about.
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Deebo and Lavine were on a team with a top 6 defense. It worked because they had Caruso and Ball anchoring them.
Monte’s strategy is top 5 offense and top 12 defense. Like it or not that’s what he is building. We had a top 8 defense the last 25 games of last season and were top 12-14 for most of Browns tenure this year. Keon (or Carter) and Keegan have to be in the big minutes lineup in order for our defense to at least be ok. I personally have really liked what I’ve seen from Lavine as a slasher shooter. Now Monte needs to parlay the remaining pieces into something resembling a #1 option.
Monte’s strategy is top 5 offense and top 12 defense. Like it or not that’s what he is building. We had a top 8 defense the last 25 games of last season and were top 12-14 for most of Browns tenure this year. Keon (or Carter) and Keegan have to be in the big minutes lineup in order for our defense to at least be ok. I personally have really liked what I’ve seen from Lavine as a slasher shooter. Now Monte needs to parlay the remaining pieces into something resembling a #1 option.
IMHO, I don’t think Lauri is that big of a difference maker and not worth the hefty price Ainge is asking. He doesn’t all of the sudden makes this team a championship contender.
He’s literally just a taller offensive player with still no additional defense in the starting line up. The Kings have plenty of offense in the starting line up currently as is.
If the Kings want to balance the 1st and 2nd units, those players are already sitting on the bench. I think the guy who would most easily come off the bench right now would be LaVine since he’s the new kid on the block and hasn’t established his role on the team yet. The team’s top 11 players are pretty even offense and defense. The units are just not balanced.
If I were DC, I would talk to LaVine and ask him to come off the bench while we work on the best rotations. I would move Keon back into the starting line up and then we have a pretty balanced team overall.
PF Keegan-D/ Lyles- O/ IJ
SF DeMar-O / LaRavia -D
C Domas -O /Jonas V. -O
SG Keon-D / LaVine- O
PG Monk-O / Fultz- D / Devin -D
He’s literally just a taller offensive player with still no additional defense in the starting line up. The Kings have plenty of offense in the starting line up currently as is.
If the Kings want to balance the 1st and 2nd units, those players are already sitting on the bench. I think the guy who would most easily come off the bench right now would be LaVine since he’s the new kid on the block and hasn’t established his role on the team yet. The team’s top 11 players are pretty even offense and defense. The units are just not balanced.
If I were DC, I would talk to LaVine and ask him to come off the bench while we work on the best rotations. I would move Keon back into the starting line up and then we have a pretty balanced team overall.
PF Keegan-D/ Lyles- O/ IJ
SF DeMar-O / LaRavia -D
C Domas -O /Jonas V. -O
SG Keon-D / LaVine- O
PG Monk-O / Fultz- D / Devin -D
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All this for people who forgot we just went on all a 7 game win streak and are playing record wise with Christie. 4th spot in the freakin west.
There are maybe 3 complete teams in the nba. Cavs, Okc, nugs. Everyone else is speciality teams. Hell the defending champs are a specialty team they shoot 3s all dam day.
2 years before, Everyone was trying to break up Tatum and Brown and said they could never win. Now look at them.
This year all we have to do is play team Basketball all 4 quarters and stop with the hero ball to end games. Other than that we will be fine. We will be 6th or play in and nobody wants to play us in a play in I guarantee.
The city needs playoffs. We are over due for it. We deserve it. Will we win a championship? No. But neither will every other team but 1. Enjoy the ride
There are maybe 3 complete teams in the nba. Cavs, Okc, nugs. Everyone else is speciality teams. Hell the defending champs are a specialty team they shoot 3s all dam day.
2 years before, Everyone was trying to break up Tatum and Brown and said they could never win. Now look at them.
This year all we have to do is play team Basketball all 4 quarters and stop with the hero ball to end games. Other than that we will be fine. We will be 6th or play in and nobody wants to play us in a play in I guarantee.
The city needs playoffs. We are over due for it. We deserve it. Will we win a championship? No. But neither will every other team but 1. Enjoy the ride
You couldn’t let that go? If you were paying attention to my posts, you’d recognize that I’ve stated repeatedly that we have two problems but I’ll state them for you once again…
Zion addresses #1 and Herb, Murphy, and Alvarado address #2.
But feel free to continue spinning your own narrative. It hasn’t stopped you yet (claiming I proposed trading the farm for those players, insinuating we’re just becoming the Pelicans, claiming I said the Pelicans decimated the league last year, thinking the trade is mainly about Zion, etc.).
Look…we can disagree on a trade proposal, the direction, the value we’re getting, etc. That’s perfectly fine, but let’s at least not misrepresent our stances so we can actually have that conversation.
- Not having a player who can be a #1 option on a top team
- Having an ill fitting roster that is not complementary
Zion addresses #1 and Herb, Murphy, and Alvarado address #2.
But feel free to continue spinning your own narrative. It hasn’t stopped you yet (claiming I proposed trading the farm for those players, insinuating we’re just becoming the Pelicans, claiming I said the Pelicans decimated the league last year, thinking the trade is mainly about Zion, etc.).
Look…we can disagree on a trade proposal, the direction, the value we’re getting, etc. That’s perfectly fine, but let’s at least not misrepresent our stances so we can actually have that conversation.
Yeah, the list of “stars” that might (and I mean “might”) be available during the offseason are…
I probably like Leonard the least out of those 3 considering he’s just as big of an injury risk as Zion but he’ll also be 34 years old at the start of next season (9 years older than Zion). If I’m going to bet on a player who’s had injury issues, I’m taking the 25 year old.
Durant has his own injury concerns but definitely not at the level of Leonard or Zion. However, he’s going to be 37 at the start of next season. How much longer will he play and will it be at an high enough level to still be an #1 option? Also, he’ll be an UFA after the 2025-26 season. What are we having to give up to get him and will he end up just walking in 1 year’s time?
Having said that, Durant is an excellent fit on paper for us (better fit than Zion) so maybe it’s worth the risk (depending on the price) to hope that you strike gold in that 1 year with him and convince him to hang around for a bit longer.
The other issue with trading for Durant is what would PHX want? They don’t own their 2027, 2029, and 2031 1sts, and they owe swaps on their 2026, 2028, and 2030 1sts. Trading both Durant and Booker and bottoming out doesn’t seem like a realistic path unless they are getting some of their own 1sts back in the deal. The complication is that multiple teams are tied to their 1sts (HOU and UTA) and multiple teams are tied to their swaps (WAS, ORL, BKN, MEM).
Maybe there is some universe where they send us Durant for assets and send Booker to HOU for their picks and other assets, and weave in one or two of those teams (UTA, WAS, ORL, BKN, MEM) to get more of their picks/pick swaps back. Or maybe they are satisfied with simply moving Durant for assets and attempting to retool around Booker (thus keeping the picks they owe to other teams not as valuable). Hard to say what they want to do.
If you can turn LaVine + assets into Durant and flip DeRozan + assets for Cam Johnson, that’s a pretty good looking, complementary team…
PG - Monk / Carter
SG - Ellis
SF - Murray / Johnson
PF - Durant
C - Sabonis / Valanciunas
- James Harden
- Joel Embiid
- Julius Randle
- Kawhi Leonard
- Kevin Durant
- Lauri Markkanen
- Paul George
- Trae Young
- Zion Williamson
- Joel Embiid
- Kawhi Leonard
- Kevin Durant
- Zion Williamson
I probably like Leonard the least out of those 3 considering he’s just as big of an injury risk as Zion but he’ll also be 34 years old at the start of next season (9 years older than Zion). If I’m going to bet on a player who’s had injury issues, I’m taking the 25 year old.
Durant has his own injury concerns but definitely not at the level of Leonard or Zion. However, he’s going to be 37 at the start of next season. How much longer will he play and will it be at an high enough level to still be an #1 option? Also, he’ll be an UFA after the 2025-26 season. What are we having to give up to get him and will he end up just walking in 1 year’s time?
Having said that, Durant is an excellent fit on paper for us (better fit than Zion) so maybe it’s worth the risk (depending on the price) to hope that you strike gold in that 1 year with him and convince him to hang around for a bit longer.
The other issue with trading for Durant is what would PHX want? They don’t own their 2027, 2029, and 2031 1sts, and they owe swaps on their 2026, 2028, and 2030 1sts. Trading both Durant and Booker and bottoming out doesn’t seem like a realistic path unless they are getting some of their own 1sts back in the deal. The complication is that multiple teams are tied to their 1sts (HOU and UTA) and multiple teams are tied to their swaps (WAS, ORL, BKN, MEM).
Maybe there is some universe where they send us Durant for assets and send Booker to HOU for their picks and other assets, and weave in one or two of those teams (UTA, WAS, ORL, BKN, MEM) to get more of their picks/pick swaps back. Or maybe they are satisfied with simply moving Durant for assets and attempting to retool around Booker (thus keeping the picks they owe to other teams not as valuable). Hard to say what they want to do.
If you can turn LaVine + assets into Durant and flip DeRozan + assets for Cam Johnson, that’s a pretty good looking, complementary team…
PG - Monk / Carter
SG - Ellis
SF - Murray / Johnson
PF - Durant
C - Sabonis / Valanciunas
PG is hot garbage Randle as well Minnesota got a lot better with him sitting out. I think we could put a competition offer for Embiid considering his injuries don’t see teams throwing the farm at him so giving them Sabonis would help. I’d love Durant but he’s not accepting a trade here zero chance that happens. He probably goes to Houston after they flame out maybe okc I have no idea why they didn’t trade for Cam. I like Lauri and Zion while keeping Keegan give them Carter and most of our picks
you aren’t wrong with that list. Every single player has big time warts (mostly age and health). This is an unpopular opinion but I could be talked into Trae Young if the price is right. Just entering his prime, healthy, elite playmaker, gets to the line and big time shot maker. We have the perfect backcourt mate in Keon to pair with him.
A starting lineup of Young, Ellis, Lavine, Keegan and Sabonis has 5 shooters, 2 elite facilitators, 2 plus defenders and the best rebounder in the game. Two way game with Sabonis/Trae could be elite. A bench of Fultz (if he pans out and can be re-signed on the cheap) Carter, Laravia, Tugler or Toohey and Jval gives you a nice mix of defenders, athleticism and just enough scoring ( a scoring punch off the bench is one of the easier things to acquire for cheap if needed). That fits the mold of the team Monte wants: top 5 offense potential, top half defense. Bring in a new defensive philosophy to maximize the roster.
it’s not perfect, but none of the options are.
A starting lineup of Young, Ellis, Lavine, Keegan and Sabonis has 5 shooters, 2 elite facilitators, 2 plus defenders and the best rebounder in the game. Two way game with Sabonis/Trae could be elite. A bench of Fultz (if he pans out and can be re-signed on the cheap) Carter, Laravia, Tugler or Toohey and Jval gives you a nice mix of defenders, athleticism and just enough scoring ( a scoring punch off the bench is one of the easier things to acquire for cheap if needed). That fits the mold of the team Monte wants: top 5 offense potential, top half defense. Bring in a new defensive philosophy to maximize the roster.
it’s not perfect, but none of the options are.