Bagley.

I hear the argument that this fanbase is easier on players than others and players should and need to be able to handle criticism and hate, even when unwarranted, because everyone does it. The fanbase and how they treat their players has always been a source of pride with this franchise. That is literally the selling point for this team around the league.

We love when players like HG say how great the fans are. Beam with pride. So it really is disappointing when fans turn on a player who has not said a bad word about the fans and is suffering through some injuries. To say the player deserves it due to lack of improvement, when he hasn't played this season is not a good look, no matter how you slice it. Neither is "everyone does it" because I'm not sure it's true to that extent. But more importantly, it is incongruous to love when players and their families speak about how great the Kings fans are, like with HG and Holmes, and to also say players should be unaffected by negative fan talk.
Seems like it's being taken that I think Kings fans are bad. Not my intent. The fact that fans cheer Harry is a good thing and shows that they can get behind a player no matter the numbers or injury history. As far as Bagley goes, keep that same energy. ;)
It's easy to see why Harry Giles became a fan favorite.

He was a late-first round flier with a lengthy injury history that would've gone way high otherwise, the definition of an underdog story that a small market loves and he charmed the fanbase with his smile, passing ability, and interviews.

Bagley was a high-profile draft pick with a large camp that seems very interested in the idea in the idea of his brand. But if you think all it took was not talk bad about the fans and they'll take a shine to you, you'd be wrong.

There are other things that will make the fans sour on a player. Not hustling for one, airing dirty laundry to the media, etc.

But in Bagley's case, other than Luka and the injuries, there's one more thing the fans don't like that will never allow him to escape criticism and hate, and that's because simply put, he's a huge ballhog.
 
Every poster in this thread I've seen blaming Kings fans for talking smack about Bagley, I've seen talk smack about countless Kings players themselves over the years.

Of course, none of that matters as when you're a professional getting paid millions, you put up or shut up. You can either handle the spotlight and what comes with it or you can't.

The spotlight in Sac is much softer than what pros deal with elsewhere.

But if it really bothers you, the FO and ownership created this situation due to their incompetence. Don't like it, look at the cause, not the symptom.
 
Posters are not telling people they can't do or say something. Only that there are consequences or repercussions. It's a tough world out there, but that fact doesn't absolve people from their deeds. Punching someone in the eye, then telling the judge "it's a tough world" doesn't get your battery charges dropped. The FO of the Kings never made a fan do something on social media.

If Marvin closes his social media account or changes how he posts on IG, then that's how he chose to address the situation. Sounds pretty mature. More mature than those who have outbursts, create burner accounts or send cryptic messages.

There is no evidence that Marvin can't handle the criticism. However, as stated in my earlier post, the biggest selling point for being on the Kings is the fan experience. If he doesn't have that, then he for sure bounces. Some may not care, but it's still not a good look in the big scheme of things.
 
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VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
There seems to be a basic disconnect here. It's not about Bagley being criticized; it's about him being pilloried. It's not his fault he was drafted second, but for a few fans it's a capital offense which then allows them to attack him at every turn. The injuries he's suffered could have happened to anyone but because it's Bagley this is just further proof that he's no good.

It's like listening to bullies trying to justify why they're picking on someone. It's not about whether or not Bagley can take the comments. It's the fact that he shouldn't have to.

Sacramento fans have been known for decades for being supportive, enthusiastic, etc. It's one reason why so many players still speak so fondly of us, and why so many come back after their playing days are done.

It's not about talking smack. That's the ultimate straw man argument.
 
There seems to be a basic disconnect here. It's not about Bagley being criticized; it's about him being pilloried. It's not his fault he was drafted second, but for a few fans it's a capital offense which then allows them to attack him at every turn. The injuries he's suffered could have happened to anyone but because it's Bagley this is just further proof that he's no good.

It's like listening to bullies trying to justify why they're picking on someone. It's not about whether or not Bagley can take the comments. It's the fact that he shouldn't have to.

Sacramento fans have been known for decades for being supportive, enthusiastic, etc. It's one reason why so many players still speak so fondly of us, and why so many come back after their playing days are done.

It's not about talking smack. That's the ultimate straw man argument.
IMO, that ire should be directed at the members of the Kings front office that are leaving Bagley out to dry. The real, broad-based acrimony did not start until the foot injury subterfuge. Unfortunately, the only public figure that fans can easily reach is Bagley himself. It’s an organization of cowards, hiding behind a 20 year old. And then, they try to shame the rightful indignation the fans feel, by claiming it is aimed exclusively at the innocent 20 year old, through team apparatchiks like Ham and Napear. It’s a completely CS move. Vivek needs to start firing people soon—most are not doing their job anyway, so an empty desk until April/May won’t make a difference.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
IMO, that ire should be directed at the members of the Kings front office that are leaving Bagley out to dry. The real, broad-based acrimony did not start until the foot injury subterfuge.
Nope. I don't buy it. The way I see it, the broad-based acrimony against Bagley has zero to do with the Kings being less than forthcoming about his foot injury. Let me spell it out the way I see it:

1) Narrow-based acrimony begins among a minority of fans, from the moment of the draft, because Marvin Bagley is not Luka Doncic.
2) The folks behind #1 feel they have a grievance, so they are particularly vocal, and the mere fact of incessant repetition serves to legitimize their position.
3) Bagley's three unrelated injuries (one due to being hacked by a 'roid monster) cost him not only playing time but also crucial development time over the course of his first two seasons, providing justification/reinforcement for the attacks in #2.
4) Buddy Hield, who had earned the honorary title of Team Scapegoat due to his large extension, his sudden issues in shooting, and his being asked to step outside of his comfort zone and be more of a playmaker gets moved to the bench and starts protecting the rock and shooting the lights out again, forcing the negativity in the fan base to pass over him for somebody new.
5) Ready-made Scapegoat #2 Bagley, not contributing due to injuries and lack of development time and already opposed by a group loud enough to seem more representative than they are, steps up into the starring role in What's Wrong With The Kings?

It didn't have anything to do with the Kings' "subterfuge" on the foot injury thing, as bad as that was. Buddy started hitting shots and stopped turning the ball over and forced the ire to fall on the Next Man Up, who for the reasons articulated above, was Bagley.
 
Nope. I don't buy it. The way I see it, the broad-based acrimony against Bagley has zero to do with the Kings being less than forthcoming about his foot injury. Let me spell it out the way I see it:

1) Narrow-based acrimony begins among a minority of fans, from the moment of the draft, because Marvin Bagley is not Luka Doncic.
2) The folks behind #1 feel they have a grievance, so they are particularly vocal, and the mere fact of incessant repetition serves to legitimize their position.
3) Bagley's three unrelated injuries (one due to being hacked by a 'roid monster) cost him not only playing time but also crucial development time over the course of his first two seasons, providing justification/reinforcement for the attacks in #2.
4) Buddy Hield, who had earned the honorary title of Team Scapegoat due to his large extension, his sudden issues in shooting, and his being asked to step outside of his comfort zone and be more of a playmaker gets moved to the bench and starts protecting the rock and shooting the lights out again, forcing the negativity in the fan base to pass over him for somebody new.
5) Ready-made Scapegoat #2 Bagley, not contributing due to injuries and lack of development time and already opposed by a group loud enough to seem more representative than they are, steps up into the starring role in What's Wrong With The Kings?

It didn't have anything to do with the Kings' "subterfuge" on the foot injury thing, as bad as that was. Buddy started hitting shots and stopped turning the ball over and forced the ire to fall on the Next Man Up, who for the reasons articulated above, was Bagley.
Accurate and factorial........and this is probably the best way I’ve seen it described in the words “incessant repetition“.
 
Nope. I don't buy it. The way I see it, the broad-based acrimony against Bagley has zero to do with the Kings being less than forthcoming about his foot injury. Let me spell it out the way I see it:

1) Narrow-based acrimony begins among a minority of fans, from the moment of the draft, because Marvin Bagley is not Luka Doncic.
2) The folks behind #1 feel they have a grievance, so they are particularly vocal, and the mere fact of incessant repetition serves to legitimize their position.
3) Bagley's three unrelated injuries (one due to being hacked by a 'roid monster) cost him not only playing time but also crucial development time over the course of his first two seasons, providing justification/reinforcement for the attacks in #2.
4) Buddy Hield, who had earned the honorary title of Team Scapegoat due to his large extension, his sudden issues in shooting, and his being asked to step outside of his comfort zone and be more of a playmaker gets moved to the bench and starts protecting the rock and shooting the lights out again, forcing the negativity in the fan base to pass over him for somebody new.
5) Ready-made Scapegoat #2 Bagley, not contributing due to injuries and lack of development time and already opposed by a group loud enough to seem more representative than they are, steps up into the starring role in What's Wrong With The Kings?

It didn't have anything to do with the Kings' "subterfuge" on the foot injury thing, as bad as that was. Buddy started hitting shots and stopped turning the ball over and forced the ire to fall on the Next Man Up, who for the reasons articulated above, was Bagley.
Agreed, Capt described the situation in concise detail.
 
Nope. I don't buy it. The way I see it, the broad-based acrimony against Bagley has zero to do with the Kings being less than forthcoming about his foot injury. Let me spell it out the way I see it:

1) Narrow-based acrimony begins among a minority of fans, from the moment of the draft, because Marvin Bagley is not Luka Doncic.
2) The folks behind #1 feel they have a grievance, so they are particularly vocal, and the mere fact of incessant repetition serves to legitimize their position.
3) Bagley's three unrelated injuries (one due to being hacked by a 'roid monster) cost him not only playing time but also crucial development time over the course of his first two seasons, providing justification/reinforcement for the attacks in #2.
4) Buddy Hield, who had earned the honorary title of Team Scapegoat due to his large extension, his sudden issues in shooting, and his being asked to step outside of his comfort zone and be more of a playmaker gets moved to the bench and starts protecting the rock and shooting the lights out again, forcing the negativity in the fan base to pass over him for somebody new.
5) Ready-made Scapegoat #2 Bagley, not contributing due to injuries and lack of development time and already opposed by a group loud enough to seem more representative than they are, steps up into the starring role in What's Wrong With The Kings?

It didn't have anything to do with the Kings' "subterfuge" on the foot injury thing, as bad as that was. Buddy started hitting shots and stopped turning the ball over and forced the ire to fall on the Next Man Up, who for the reasons articulated above, was Bagley.
Two questions, and one quibble. What are the three unrelated injuries? He’s had two injuries this season, that I am aware of. Where in the sequence of events does Marvin developing zero aspects of his physique or skill-set over the summer fit? I think the above list still pre-supposes an acrimonious/malicious fanbase as opposed to what is clearly a horribly run organization careening from excuse to excuse.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
Two questions, and one quibble. What are the three unrelated injuries? He’s had two injuries this season, that I am aware of.
He had a knee injury last year that cost him about 20 games in addition to the hand and foot injuries this year.

Where in the sequence of events does Marvin developing zero aspects of his physique or skill-set over the summer fit?
I haven't heard any accusations that he didn't work hard over the summer. Kids with his physique usually take a bit longer (in terms of aging) to put on muscle. I for one didn't expect him to come back jacked up at 20. As far as skill-set, how do we know? He got hurt in his first game, lost development time with a new coach and new teammates, then seemed to be hitting a groove when he got hurt again.

I think the above list still pre-supposes an acrimonious/malicious fanbase as opposed to what is clearly a horribly run organization careening from excuse to excuse.
You seem to be arguing that the tide turned against Bagley because the Front Office was not fully forthcoming about the prognosis of his injury. Well, that would be some pretty misplaced anger. But I don't think that's what happened. I've already laid out what I think happened.
 
Nope. I don't buy it. The way I see it, the broad-based acrimony against Bagley has zero to do with the Kings being less than forthcoming about his foot injury. Let me spell it out the way I see it:

1) Narrow-based acrimony begins among a minority of fans, from the moment of the draft, because Marvin Bagley is not Luka Doncic.
2) The folks behind #1 feel they have a grievance, so they are particularly vocal, and the mere fact of incessant repetition serves to legitimize their position.
3) Bagley's three unrelated injuries (one due to being hacked by a 'roid monster) cost him not only playing time but also crucial development time over the course of his first two seasons, providing justification/reinforcement for the attacks in #2.
4) Buddy Hield, who had earned the honorary title of Team Scapegoat due to his large extension, his sudden issues in shooting, and his being asked to step outside of his comfort zone and be more of a playmaker gets moved to the bench and starts protecting the rock and shooting the lights out again, forcing the negativity in the fan base to pass over him for somebody new.
5) Ready-made Scapegoat #2 Bagley, not contributing due to injuries and lack of development time and already opposed by a group loud enough to seem more representative than they are, steps up into the starring role in What's Wrong With The Kings?

It didn't have anything to do with the Kings' "subterfuge" on the foot injury thing, as bad as that was. Buddy started hitting shots and stopped turning the ball over and forced the ire to fall on the Next Man Up, who for the reasons articulated above, was Bagley.
Some good points but to me this is a bit overthinking it. Bagley is criticized, not hated. He is criticized because of his level of play/value of his skill set isnt good enough for his draft position. Passing on Luka just makes it worse because Luka was the obvious pick for anyone that understands basketball. Young+high future 1st >> Bagley, JJJ >> Bagley so that doesnt help the situation either. I'm not that active on twitter so I cant comment on that but in this site Bagley is being criticized (not hated) for a good reason, he hasnt been good enough.

Him being injured a lot also doesnt help his situation but the main point is this: he hasnt been a winning player in this league, he hasnt developes his flaws and his peers have been performed much better than he has. Thats going to mean the player gets some criticism.

Edit: Bagley gets some extra crap because our fo is getting a lot of crap for making very bad decisions. Bagley over Doncic (or even Young or JJJ) is one of them so it keeps his name in negative discussions even if the innitial idiot is the gm
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Some good points but to me this is a bit overthinking it. Bagley is criticized, not hated. He is criticized because of his level of play/value of his skill set isnt good enough for his draft position. Passing on Luka just makes it worse because Luka was the obvious pick for anyone that understands basketball. Young+high future 1st >> Bagley, JJJ >> Bagley so that doesnt help the situation either. I'm not that active on twitter so I cant comment on that but in this site Bagley is being criticized (not hated) for a good reason, he hasnt been good enough.

Him being injured a lot also doesnt help his situation but the main point is this: he hasnt been a winning player in this league, he hasnt developes his flaws and his peers have been performed much better than he has. Thats going to mean the player gets some criticism.

Edit: Bagley gets some extra crap because our fo is getting a lot of crap for making very bad decisions. Bagley over Doncic (or even Young or JJJ) is one of them so it keeps his name in negative discussions even if the innitial idiot is the gm
No, you're missing the point. Comments that cross the line about Bagley are deleted here, but they're prevalent on other boards and Twitter. As has been said many, many, many times - criticism is okay, hating on him, calling him disgusting vile names, hoping his injury proves career-ending and other vitriolic comments like that are NOT okay. Just because you don't see those comments here doesn't mean we mods haven't had to deal with them.
 
No, you're missing the point. Comments that cross the line about Bagley are deleted here, but they're prevalent on other boards and Twitter. As has been said many, many, many times - criticism is okay, hating on him, calling him disgusting vile names, hoping his injury proves career-ending and other vitriolic comments like that are NOT okay. Just because you don't see those comments here doesn't mean we mods haven't had to deal with them.
I'm talking about what I'm seeing. I dont do Twitter that much so I dont see stuff in there regarding Bagley. Reading this site I'm not seeing Bagley beeing hated as a human, I'm seeing his skillset/performance/contribution to winning being criticized. If there is some posts that are hatefull towards him as a human, they are stupid and should be deleted. The criticism I've seen has been justified and well argued

Edit: If Bagley is being talked about as a bad person because he isnt good ebough at basketball, thats bad. If he is being criticized for his performance or something he said, thats cool. There has been a lot of slander about Buddy in here for what hes said and I'm one of the few in here that has defended him so I definetly wont take any talk about someone being a bad person lightly.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
I haven't really commented on the attacks on Bagley, but thought the Capt did a great job. I've stated my feelings on this sort of thing many times, but for those who haven't heard them. If you wouldn't say it to his, or any players face, then don't say it on social media. Don't be a coward and hide behind a computer or a smart phone in some dark room somewhere. I'm not speaking about criticism, I'm talking about abusive language. Things you wouldn't say face to face to anyone, but certainly not face to face with Bagley. That's the definition of a spineless coward!
 
Mr. Bagley is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
This can be interpreted many different ways.
The Kings have figured out how to win without him.
Physically he may be up to an 80 game schedule.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Mr. Bagley is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
This can be interpreted many different ways.
The Kings have figured out how to win without him.
Physically he may be up to an 80 game schedule.
So a 19 year old Bagley, who put up better numbers than a 19 year old Giannis did in either of his first two years in the NBA is now irrelevant. Look, there's no doubt he's had a run of bad luck, but there has been a lot of players that suffered injuries to start their career that went on to have great careers, some even became all stars. So to me, he's not quite irrelevant just yet. I'm sure that's not what you want. It's a bonus that the Kings have been capable of playing this well without him, but a healthy talented Bagley can only make the team better. I guess we'll see...
 
The negativity about Bagley is not about Bagley, but about the Kings front office. It is about where he was selected, what they thought he could do/be, and those expectations were set by THEM, not Bags. So when Bags is failing to live up to them, the frustration is about the Kings FO, not on him perse. Now, some of that is on him because frankly he has all the tools to be way better but hasn't seemed to work on his game much. His health could also be an issue with the organization as well. So frustration is boiling over because of the Kings 90% of it, with 10% being Bags. Let's just be honest about it.
 
The negativity about Bagley is not about Bagley, but about the Kings front office. It is about where he was selected, what they thought he could do/be, and those expectations were set by THEM, not Bags. So when Bags is failing to live up to them, the frustration is about the Kings FO, not on him perse. Now, some of that is on him because frankly he has all the tools to be way better but hasn't seemed to work on his game much. His health could also be an issue with the organization as well. So frustration is boiling over because of the Kings 90% of it, with 10% being Bags. Let's just be honest about it.
Honesty if Bagley was performing the the criticism wouldn’t be there but he’s either not playing or not looking great, more on Bagley than the FO at this point. Look at Phoenix/Atlanta yes there pised about passing on Luka but the talk has settled down cause Young/Austin are playing very well. Than there’s us and we resort to per36 phantom numbers to justify things
 
Bagley was the #1 recruit out of high school. Player of the year in the ACC. First team All American. NBA rookie 1st team. Positive showing with USA basketball over the summer before he withdrew.

Marvin was not a reach in his draft class. He has been a top prospect his whole life and continued that trend through college and into the NBA. The NBA rookie first team from 2019 was Luka, Trae, JJJ, Ayton and....Bagley.

There is no way to determine what his development this year would have been had he been healthy. There is no way to tell how Marvin would do if the Kings cleared their roster to allow the young draft picks to flourish unchallenged like in Dallas, Memphis and Atlanta.

I do not believe there is a Marvin Bagley development problem. There is a desperation problem with this team that is looking for a savior. An underlying feeling of doom that without drafting an instant MVP there is no path to that coveted 8th seed. The desperation clouds judgement and distorts reality. It's fine that people feel the FO is underperforming. I absolutely feel that way. But that has absolutely nothing to do with Bagley. Not even 10%.
 
Bagley was the #1 recruit out of high school. Player of the year in the ACC. First team All American. NBA rookie 1st team. Positive showing with USA basketball over the summer before he withdrew.

Marvin was not a reach in his draft class. He has been a top prospect his whole life and continued that trend through college and into the NBA. The NBA rookie first team from 2019 was Luka, Trae, JJJ, Ayton and....Bagley.

There is no way to determine what his development this year would have been had he been healthy. There is no way to tell how Marvin would do if the Kings cleared their roster to allow the young draft picks to flourish unchallenged like in Dallas, Memphis and Atlanta.

I do not believe there is a Marvin Bagley development problem. There is a desperation problem with this team that is looking for a savior. An underlying feeling of doom that without drafting an instant MVP there is no path to that coveted 8th seed. The desperation clouds judgement and distorts reality. It's fine that people feel the FO is underperforming. I absolutely feel that way. But that has absolutely nothing to do with Bagley. Not even 10%.
just described Jabari Parker and here he is years later doing nothing
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
Bagley was the #1 recruit out of high school. Player of the year in the ACC. First team All American. NBA rookie 1st team. Positive showing with USA basketball over the summer before he withdrew.
just described Jabari Parker and here he is years later doing nothing
Do you even bother looking stuff up before you post? Parker was neither Player of the Year in the ACC, nor was he NBA Rookie 1st Team (nor was he NBA Rookie 2nd Team, for the record).

However, I can think of a player who DOES fit those criteria (though I don't recall him dropping out of USA basketball)...Michael Jordan.

I'm not saying Bagley will have a Jordan-type impact. What I'm saying is that two can play that game (even if only one plays the game accurately).
 
Bagley was the #1 recruit out of high school. Player of the year in the ACC. First team All American. NBA rookie 1st team. Positive showing with USA basketball over the summer before he withdrew.

Marvin was not a reach in his draft class. He has been a top prospect his whole life and continued that trend through college and into the NBA. The NBA rookie first team from 2019 was Luka, Trae, JJJ, Ayton and....Bagley.

There is no way to determine what his development this year would have been had he been healthy. There is no way to tell how Marvin would do if the Kings cleared their roster to allow the young draft picks to flourish unchallenged like in Dallas, Memphis and Atlanta.

I do not believe there is a Marvin Bagley development problem. There is a desperation problem with this team that is looking for a savior. An underlying feeling of doom that without drafting an instant MVP there is no path to that coveted 8th seed. The desperation clouds judgement and distorts reality. It's fine that people feel the FO is underperforming. I absolutely feel that way. But that has absolutely nothing to do with Bagley. Not even 10%.
It only proves that high school and college programs are so overrated. I’ve watched some of his tapes and he exclusively relied on his athleticism. it’s actually kinda lame when it’s hard to find a tape with him finishing with his weak hand 2 inches away from the rim vs 1 foot shorter centers in college...and that’s a top prospect....