Bagley progress and pending return

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I think it's more Amare with a jumper.
I've mentioned this before in other threads, but the Amare Stoudemire comparison isn't really that great. There are some similarities there but mostly it's just because they're explosive athletes that can dunk well.

At the same age Bagley is a much better shooter than Amare was (especially past 18 feet). Amare had essentially zero ability to shoot 3's his first few years in the league and as we've seen Bagley already hits them plus is much more consistent in the 14-18' range than Amare was at 19-21. Bagley also has a better handle and is more comfortable handling the ball on the perimeter than Amare was. Rebounding numbers are probably negligible per 36 minutes played but from watching both I think Bagley is probably a slightly better rebounder at the same age (Amare's rebounding also declined heavily after his 3rd year)

Those are the positives for Bagley in comparison to Amare. I watched a ton of Amare Stoudemire early to middle of his career with the Suns and except for the lone Suns fan on this board I doubt anybody else has watched Amare play as much as I have.

On the negative side for Bagley compared to Amare....

Amare was a much better finisher and much more effective in the pick-n-roll right out of the gate compared to Bagley. He just had a real feel/knack for setting good effective screens and rolled at the right time taking the the proper angle to the basket. There is an art to it and he just knew how to do it right from the start. Perhaps most importantly, Amare really exploded to the rim finishing strong even in traffic. Think about how many highlights we used to see in Amare's first few years dunking on and over everyone in sight. He was a beast when it came to attacking the basket with a head of steam. Bagley doesn't do any of these well (at least not yet). Bagley's screens are poor and he doesn't explode to the basket like a missile. Congestion in the lane stops Bagley, it didn't stop Amare.

And for all of those getting ready to type......"Well Amare had Steve Nash"..................just remember Amare didn't play with Nash until his 3rd year in the league. Amare had Stephon Marbury his first two years. Marbury was a good point guard in his own right but mostly as a scorer. The Nash/Stoudemire connection was maybe the best ever in terms of passer vs. finisher on the pick-n-roll but Amare Stoudemire was already a highly effective finisher with Marbury at the helm. Stoudemire was also a better weak-side shotblocker and shot alterer than Bagley was at the same age. Defense is another area that Amare deteriorated in rather rapidly after his first few years in the league. However he was a pretty effective weak side defender in the early part of his career. By the midway point of his career he was a poor defender that would still get some nice highlight blocks.

In short Bagley is more skilled, better jumpshot, slightly better rebounder at the same age than Amare. On the other hand Amare was a more ferocious finisher and a guy that had already mastered the pick-n-roll by his second and especially 3rd season in the league.
 
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I've mentioned this before in other threads, but the Amare Stoudemire comparison isn't really that great. There are some similarities there but mostly it's just because they're explosive athletes that can dunk well.

At the same age Bagley is a much better shooter than Amare was (especially past 18 feet). Amare had essentially zero ability to shoot 3's his first few years in the league and as we've seen Bagley already hits them plus is much more consistent in the 14-18' range than Amare was at 19-21. Bagley also has a better handle and is more comfortable handling the ball on the perimeter than Amare was. Rebounding numbers are probably negligible per 36 minutes played but from watching both I think Bagley is probably a slightly better rebounder at the same age (Amare's rebounding also declined heavily after his 3rd year)

Those are the positives for Bagley in comparison to Amare. I watched a ton of Amare Stoudemire early to middle of his career with the Suns and except for the lone Suns fan on this board I doubt anybody else has watched Amare play as much as I have.

On the negative side for Bagley compared to Amare....

Amare was a much better finisher and much more effective in the pick-n-roll right out of the gate compared to Bagley. He just had a real feel/knack for setting good effective screens and rolled at the right time taking the the proper angle to the basket. There is an art to it and he just knew how to do it right from the start. Perhaps most importantly, Amare really exploded to the rim finishing strong even in traffic. Think about how many highlights we used to see in Amare's first few years dunking on and over everyone in sight. He was a beast when it came to attacking the basket with a head of steam. Bagley doesn't do any of these well (at least not yet). Bagley's screens are poor and he doesn't explode to the basket like a missile. Congestion in the lane stops Bagley, it didn't stop Amare.

And for all of those getting ready to type......"Well Amare had Steve Nash"..................just remember Amare didn't play with Nash until his 3rd year in the league. Amare had Stephon Marbury his first two years. Marbury was a good point guard in his own right but mostly as a scorer. The Nash/Stoudemire connection was maybe the best ever in terms of passer vs. finisher on the pick-n-roll but Amare Stoudemire was already a highly effective finisher with Marbury at the helm. Stoudemire was also a better weak-side shotblocker and shot alterer than Bagley was at the same age. Defense is another area that Amare deteriorated in rather rapidly after his first few years in the league. However he was a pretty effective weak side defender in the early part of his career. By the midway point of his career he was a poor defender that would still get some nice highlight blocks.

In short Bagley is more skilled, better jumpshot, slightly better rebounder at the same age than Amare. On the other hand Amare was a more ferocious finisher and a guy that had already mastered the pick-n-roll by his second and especially 3rd season in the league.
Amar’e saw a huge jump in offensive impact as soon as Nash came on board. He was a -.08 obpm the year prior to Nash and jumped to a 3.4 when Nash came on board.

I’d consider it a miracle if Bagley is ever higher than 3.

I’m also not quite so certain Bagley is a better shooter.. Amar’e was a career 76 % freethrow shooter playing in an era where it was rare for bigs to shoot threes.

Amar’e actually shot well from long two, so I bet had he played in modern era he would be at least average for his position from three.
 
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I give whoever is behind this troll account a gold star. You really had me going for a while there.
Based on their post history, they are really committing to the troll job bit
Nice arguing. Personal attacks when all someone does is quote numbers. He has a reasonable argument backed up with something, wether one agrees with it or not is irrelevant. To me argument backed up with something is better than just shouting stuff like "big men take more time to develope" as a fact without any proof that its actually correct. But you two calling him a troll is just stupid.

Your mind was made up the moment they drafted him, so what exactly is your end game here?
What goddamn end game? Maybe everyones end game in here is to discuss about basketball related things. What is your end game in here?
 
Especially since you rarely get 1 on 1 situations in the post and there's almost always someone collapsing on you when the big guys get the ball down deep. The real value of the post-up is exactly what you said. Embiid draws attention and collapses the defense around him and then kicking out to wide open shooters on the perimeter.
When a player is fouled and hits FT(s) does it count as PpP?
 
KAT and Jokic get a pass because their offensive impact is basically that of a dominant wing player with their playmaking ability and ability to also stretch the floor.
... like Nikola Jokic.
A little tangential to what I was commenting on.
But exactly right. If a big is good at offense, then he doesn't have to be great at defense. It would be nice, but it's not a deal breaker.
 
Nice arguing. Personal attacks when all someone does is quote numbers. He has a reasonable argument backed up with something, wether one agrees with it or not is irrelevant. To me argument backed up with something is better than just shouting stuff like "big men take more time to develope" as a fact without any proof that its actually correct. But you two calling him a troll is just stupid.



What goddamn end game? Maybe everyones end game in here is to discuss about basketball related things. What is your end game in here?
Relax. You seem very angry about this. When the bulk (actually more like all posts. Just did a quick check and every post/like of theirs I found pertains to disparaging Bagley or praising a certain other player. But sure, no bias there) of ones posts are just incessantly whining about 1 player and it’s clear that persons mind was made up from day 1, it’s not really a discussion nor is it objective...especially in light of what Bagley has shown thus far ...hence what’s their end game? Do they think they are going to sway others, does it make the poster feel good to vent because the kings didn’t draft the guy they wanted , are they just trying to get a rise out of someone, do they think the Kings will read this and go nullify the draft pick? How many times can one repeat themself?
 
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Relax. You seem very angry about this. When the bulk (actually more like all posts. Just did a quick check and every post/like of theirs I found pertains to disparaging Bagley or praising a certain other player. But sure, no bias there) of ones posts are just incessantly whining about 1 player and it’s clear that persons mind was made up from day 1, it’s not really a discussion nor is it objective...especially in light of what Bagley has shown thus far ...hence what’s their end game? Do they think they are going to sway others, does it make the poster feel good to vent because the kings didn’t draft the guy they wanted , are they just trying to get a rise out of someone, do they think the Kings will read this and go nullify the draft pick? How many times can one repeat themselves?
I dont want to speak on behalf of tyguy but from what I've seen his agenda isnt about Bagley, its a lot broader. Its his view of basketball, the value of certain type of big men compared to ball handling creators. Bagley just happens to be the topic of converastion a lot because he is the type of big man that isnt that valuable according to his statistical analysis.

Its plain stupid that if there is a poster in here that offers a different point of view in a site that is very homogeneus of their opinions and he gets personal attacks from it. A poster bases his/her opinion on statistics and people demote to name calling saying he is a troll. Thats just stupid and I will stand behind it being stupid. Also asking him about his "end game" after calling him a troll is stupid imo and I certainly didnt like to see that a moderator liked that post.
 
Remember when there were people on here saying they'd rather have Bagley than Pascal Siakam on here last season? Good lord. It was a terrible take then and has aged even worse.
 
Remember when there were people on here saying they'd rather have Bagley than Pascal Siakam on here last season? Good lord. It was a terrible take then and has aged even worse.
To be fair, Siakam is in his 4th year. He didn't even average double digit scoring until his 3rd Year. Bagley is 4 games into his 2nd year.

In 2 years time, I would be surprised if Bagley is not at least averaging 20ppg and 10+reb by his 4th year.

You have to compare apples to apples when you are looking at development and maturity time, if you are comparing stats.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
Nice arguing. Personal attacks when all someone does is quote numbers.
The majority of this person's posts are opinions stated as fact without numbers. When I asked for numbers I was given a very refined (some might call it cherry picked) set of 35 players that meet a plus on defense criteria in their rookie year. Is that all time? We know it extends back at least 35 years to Ewing and Olajuwon. So one player per year = big men not taking time to develop? How many successful big men with a positive defensive impact entered the league over the last 35 years, my guess is it is at least 100. So 35%. At best.
 
It is great to have Bagley back. I like his willingness to run the floor, go after the ball and score.
He better start playing better defense sometime soon or he will never make the starting lineup.
Several times in NC he got beat and committed stupid little ticky tack fouls. If you are going to foul someone, make sure they can't make the shot. Otherwise you are giving away a 3 point play.

The positions that players can handle in the NBA are largely determined by what positions they can guard. So far Bagley is not showing much on defense no matter what position he plays.
 
The majority of this person's posts are opinions stated as fact without numbers. When I asked for numbers I was given a very refined (some might call it cherry picked) set of 35 players that meet a plus on defense criteria in their rookie year. Is that all time? We know it extends back at least 35 years to Ewing and Olajuwon. So one player per year = big men not taking time to develop? How many successful big men with a positive defensive impact entered the league over the last 35 years, my guess is it is at least 100. So 35%. At best.
Actually, first you called him a troll, then you argued his statistics were useless without even directly asking him about the things you didnt understand/agree in them. Whether you agree with a person or not, you starting a conversation calling someone a troll makes you just an a**hole.

Also tyguy has extensively posted his statistical analysis from what he bases his facts on. Whether they are correct or not is irrelevant. Whats relevant is calling someone a troll when he clearly has done some type of work to support his argument. On the other hand you stating things like big men take this and that long to develope defensively, without supporting it with any evidence is just funny when you start your arguments with personal attacks.
 
Actually, first you called him a troll, then you argued his statistics were useless without even directly asking him about the things you didnt understand/agree in them. Whether you agree with a person or not, you starting a conversation calling someone a troll makes you just an a**hole.

Also tyguy has extensively posted his statistical analysis from what he bases his facts on. Whether they are correct or not is irrelevant. Whats relevant is calling someone a troll when he clearly has done some type of work to support his argument. On the other hand you stating things like big men take this and that long to develope defensively, without supporting it with any evidence is just funny when you start your arguments with personal attacks.
Where are you even going with all of this? Chill.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
Whether or not I am an a-hole is irrelevant to calling out someone who's sole mission on this forum seems to be to bash one of our players and stir up drama between posters. I won't runaway from the a-hole badge but I think you can count the number of posters I've called out like that on one hand in the ~15 years since I've visited this forum. There are plenty of folks that I disagree with here regularly that I'd be happy to call a friend and watch a game with and offer them a beverage of their choice. But hey, maybe I am an a-hole.

When someone wants to offer stats to dispel conventional wisdom and limits the sample size to under 60 players over a period that is at least 35-40 years, I am calling BS no matter what the rationale. Like Mark Twain said...
 
The majority of this person's posts are opinions stated as fact without numbers. When I asked for numbers I was given a very refined (some might call it cherry picked) set of 35 players that meet a plus on defense criteria in their rookie year. Is that all time? We know it extends back at least 35 years to Ewing and Olajuwon. So one player per year = big men not taking time to develop? How many successful big men with a positive defensive impact entered the league over the last 35 years, my guess is it is at least 100. So 35%. At best.
Presenting cherry picked stats to back ones agenda is disingenuous.
 

gunks

Hall of Famer
At this point I'm just hoping Bagley doesn't end up the dud of the top 5.

Ayton will be a BEAST when he's back, playing with a legit PG.

Luka is so good we aren't even allowed to talk about him on the main board.

Trae is looking like the heir apparent to Curry.

JJJ has been relatively underwhelming this season, but he did just drop 43 the other night.

I hated the Bagley pick on draft day, but he started to win me over last season. However, I think a lot of good points have been made in the thread about the flashy uselessness of post bigs who don't play defense. Bags better figure it out soon, because he still looks garbo on that end.

I don't care if he puts up 25/10, if the opposing teams are shooting 50% because of garbage Kings defense night in and night out, we aren't winning a lot of games. We've been down that road with Cuz.

OTOH, if Bagley does become competent on defense, we're looking at a pretty good player moving forward. I'm a negative Nancy (this franchise has given me very little reason to be anything otherwise), but I'd love to be proven wrong.
 
Where are you even going with all of this? Chill.
To me calling someone a troll is idiotic especially if that person clearly has spent some time to support his argument. Right or wrong, he shouldnt be called a troll and his existence in here shouldnt be questioned (by mod liking a post that does so which to me is very questionable).

Whether or not I am an a-hole is irrelevant to calling out someone who's sole mission on this forum seems to be to bash one of our players and stir up drama between posters. I won't runaway from the a-hole badge but I think you can count the number of posters I've called out like that on one hand in the ~15 years since I've visited this forum. There are plenty of folks that I disagree with here regularly that I'd be happy to call a friend and watch a game with and offer them a beverage of their choice. But hey, maybe I am an a-hole.
Yes, you are an a-hole if you start yout argument by calling someone a troll. Ask the guy to specify his statistics if you disagree with them, dont start out calling them a troll and then be surprised when you are called and a-hole.

I too disagree with a lot of people in here, one good example is maybe that Ozy guy. I often disagree with him on draft stuff or possible fa signings but I will never call him a "troll" right off the bat especially since I know he puts a lot of time in watching the film to support his opinion. Calling him a troll would make me an a-hole in that situation.

Also tyguys "sole mission" isnt aboyt Bagley, its about his point of view about different value of different type of players. It was his point pre draft and its the same post draft. I dont want to explain or talk in behalf of other user in here but since mods let personal attacks fly if its to someone that doesnt agree with the mods, I feel like someone should note when people are being childish/rude. I mean either argue the point/stats or shut the f-up.

When someone wants to offer stats to dispel conventional wisdom and limits the sample size to under 60 players over a period that is at least 35-40 years, I am calling BS no matter what the rationale. Like Mark Twain said...
You are not an a-hole for calling BS. You are an a-hole for starting the converastion by calling someone a troll that has clearly put time and effort to support his argument.

Presenting cherry picked stats to back ones agenda is disingenuous.
How true the stats may be is irrelevant. Its an argument, there is time spent to support the argument so you either argue the stats as they are or be an a-hole and call him a troll.
 
To me calling someone a troll is idiotic especially if that person clearly has spent some time to support his argument. Right or wrong, he shouldnt be called a troll and his existence in here shouldnt be questioned (by mod liking a post that does so which to me is very questionable).



Yes, you are an a-hole if you start yout argument by calling someone a troll. Ask the guy to specify his statistics if you disagree with them, dont start out calling them a troll and then be surprised when you are called and a-hole.

I too disagree with a lot of people in here, one good example is maybe that Ozy guy. I often disagree with him on draft stuff or possible fa signings but I will never call him a "troll" right off the bat especially since I know he puts a lot of time in watching the film to support his opinion. Calling him a troll would make me an a-hole in that situation.

Also tyguys "sole mission" isnt aboyt Bagley, its about his point of view about different value of different type of players. It was his point pre draft and its the same post draft. I dont want to explain or talk in behalf of other user in here but since mods let personal attacks fly if its to someone that doesnt agree with the mods, I feel like someone should note when people are being childish/rude. I mean either argue the point/stats or shut the f-up.



You are not an a-hole for calling BS. You are an a-hole for starting the converastion by calling someone a troll that has clearly put time and effort to support his argument.



How true the stats may be is irrelevant. Its an argument, there is time spent to support the argument so you either argue the stats as they are or be an a-hole and call him a troll.
LOL . How true that stats are is irrelevant?
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A little tangential to what I was commenting on.
But exactly right. If a big is good at offense, then he doesn't have to be great at defense. It would be nice, but it's not a deal breaker.
This also means that nobody is perfect, and big or small there is no single pattern that makes a player great. Every of the best players was great his own way with a unique mix of skills. Unfortunately, Bagley right now is not very good at anything. So, the coach is looking where he can help. IMO, putting him on 4s that are too athletic/explosive for Bjelica to handle is the way to take advantage of his abilities. On offense, he should be asked to pass the ball early in the shot-clock and to try to create his own shot later. Something as simple as that should be his MO right now.
 
Still waiting for any supporting evidence whatsoever to back up your counter claim.
Lol I never made a counter claim. I Said you’ve had your mind made up since day 1-fact, you have an agenda-fact, you post exclusively about Bagley (boo) and Doncic (yaaa)-fact and you’ve provided cherry picked stats to back up your narrative-fact. You are the one throwing all this out there and have been for some time, not me. The onus is on you to provide something of substance. But by all means keep posting cherry picked stats, apparently it’s irrelevant lol
 
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But by all means keep posting irrelevant stats, apparently it doesn’t matter lol
Stop acting like a little child. The stats are irrelevant in the context of whether you acted like an a**hole or not. If you want to argue, then argue the stats. Or you can be an a-hole, call someone a troll and have zero arguments to support anything. Thats your choise.
 
Stop acting like a little child. The stats are irrelevant in the context of whether you acted like an a**hole or not. If you want to argue, then argue the stats. Or you can be an a-hole, call someone a troll and have zero arguments to support anything. Thats your choise.
So angry lol. It’s already been laid out his stats were cherry picked crap and put out there to push his narrative and that the onus is on the poster. Have a good day
#How true that stats are is irrelevant
 
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