Bagley needs to start or Joerger gone?

[Blob]

Whenever Vlade puts out a statement, it doesn't sound like him, so I become slightly suspect. I think Brandon Williams crafts the statement and Vlade puts his name to it.

Who is Chris Haynes? Never heard of him! Let's suppose his source Joerger is in trouble is Bagley's or Skal's agent? Well then, why would fans (in this thread and elsewhere) be mad at the organization? They should be mad at the writer for being irresponsible pushing fake news. A players agent has no insight into whether the coaches job is safe or not. A journalist should not report from a bias external source something he cannot confirm from an internal source. This is just common sense.

Now let's suppose an internal source in the front office confided the coach is in trouble. What is the basis to substantiate this? After last night we are running a -1.2 point differential. Last year at this time we were a joke at -12.0 differential with worst offense and defense. You are telling me Joerger keeps his job last year and loses it now despite substantial improvement in competitiveness??? No way.

The justification to play Bjelica ahead of MB3 is because Joerger was trying to get the most out of Willie and open the floor for D-Fox. Joerger saw Giles was not ready and Skal is lost puppy. Skal is more of half court player not oriented to our fast pace. If the team was going to go anywhere Joerger needed Willie to be competent, so he tried to create the best conditions for him to do so. I support this. You cannot argue with the results. Willie was better for a while. Bjelica along with D-Fox was our best player for the first 6-7 games.

Moreover, look what happened with D-Fox starting his career with "training wheels on". Now he is flourishing! You are going to dispute a similar approach with regards to Bagley? I don't think so. Firing Joerger would be catastrophic. It would create tremendous instability with the players gaining comfort in this system. Who cares if fans and media want to mock the Kings for taking Bagley over Luka. Who cares! If Vlade is overly sensitive to this type of criticism, that is a poor reflection on him and his fortitude and confidence.

The GM has to grant his coach autonomy and vice versa to do his job. When those roles become muddled, it is problematic. When Joerger was asking for former players to be brought in, and the GM complied, it did not end well (Barnes, Z-Bo). Similarly it is not the GMs job to tell the coach which player to play how many minutes.

With that said, I think that the best position for Bagley may turn out to be center. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice or thrice, shame on me. This is where I am at with Willie. His game last night was an exact replica of games against Capella. You could say the same thing when he went up against Towns. He gets absolutely destroyed. If Willie has any value, we should trade him now and make Bagley our starting center. With very little seasoning and experience, I think Bagley will surpass what Willie gives us. I don't trust Willie to be better than anything but below average to average most nights. Bagley can be much more so let's get on with it, and keep the coach while we are at it.

 

[Kings_of_California]

I really hope this doesn't amount to anything. I'd be extremely disappointed to see the Kings due old Kings things.

This is a new era, and I like Joerger as a coach. Things are going well enough, please let's not take a step backward.

For once, I just want consistency.

 

[Kingster]

“Dave has our full support and confidence,” GM Vlade Divac said in a statement. “We continue to work together to develop our young core and compete.”

Vlade states two goals: 1) developing the young core, and 2) competing, i.e. winning. He did not dismiss the charge that there were people in management unhappy with Joerger's distribution of minutes for Bagley. Note that during the summer management had stressed winning far more than developing the youth.

As others have said, it does seem to be highly coincidental that the story comes out after Jackson torched Bjelica, while Bagley was sitting on the bench. Later in the Memphis game when Bagley was inserted he did a good job defensively on Jackson. After the game, both Coz and Reynolds suggested Bagley should get more minutes, not, I might add for reasons of "developing the youth", but for reasons of winning this season. Reynolds noted that Jackson and Gasol hurt the Kings in the "power game." He was referring to both Bjelica and WCS.

But now that this apparent dispute is out in the open, how is Joerger supposed to distribute Bagley's minutes? Are the minutes going up or down? If Joerger wanted to be perceived as the independent tough coach, he'd give Bagley about the same number of minutes as he has been. That would benefit both Bjelica and WCS, both of whom have played poorly in the last couple of games. Essentially, it would be their insurance policy for minutes. On the other hand, if Bagley's minutes go substantially higher, then obviously it benefits Bagley's growth, and it may actually benefit the team in winning. But in the latter scenario it seems to me that Bagley would be perceived as "taking" Bjelica's and WCS's minutes not out of merit, but rather out of political pull - the entitled overall #2 pick in the draft taking minutes from those who deserve it more. Bagley becomes the fall guy for the diminishing minutes of Bjelica and/or WCS.

 

[John Galt]

They better not fire Joerger before ticket renewals. I will not renew, which would be a disappointment to a couple partners (or maybe not). I would be devastated/disgusted if they fired Joerger.

I believe Pete D'Alessandro had already decided to fire Malone to bring in his own guy before that season started - and he seized the flimsy excuse when DeMarcus got meningitis.

Now for the deja vu. If the Kings fire Joerger over "minutes for youth" it means for sure that somebody (Matina probably, but maybe Vivek) decided before the season started that he had to go. Now she is panicking because they are off to an unexpected good start so she is sowing some seeds to lay the groundwork for what she has already decided to do.

The day Matina leaves the Kings, is the day the instability will start to decelerate.

Joerger is the kind of guy who would pee off Matina by not kissing her ass. Same as Malone I think.

 

[Kingsfan23]

“Dave has our full support and confidence,” GM Vlade Divac said in a statement. “We continue to work together to develop our young core and compete.”

Vlade states two goals: 1) developing the young core, and 2) competing, i.e. winning. He did not dismiss the charge that there were people in management unhappy with Joerger's distribution of minutes for Bagley. Note that during the summer management had stressed winning far more than developing the youth.

As others have said, it does seem to be highly coincidental that the story comes out after Jackson torched Bjelica, while Bagley was sitting on the bench. Later in the Memphis game when Bagley was inserted he did a good job defensively on Jackson. After the game, both Coz and Reynolds suggested Bagley should get more minutes, not, I might add for reasons of "developing the youth", but for reasons of winning this season. Reynolds noted that Jackson and Gasol hurt the Kings in the "power game." He was referring to both Bjelica and WCS.

But now that this apparent dispute is out in the open, how is Joerger supposed to distribute Bagley's minutes? Are the minutes going up or down? If Joerger wanted to be perceived as the independent tough coach, he'd give Bagley about the same number of minutes as he has been. That would benefit both Bjelica and WCS, both of whom have played poorly in the last couple of games. Essentially, it would be their insurance policy for minutes. On the other hand, if Bagley's minutes go substantially higher, then obviously it benefits Bagley's growth, and it may actually benefit the team in winning. But in the latter scenario it seems to me that Bagley would be perceived as "taking" Bjelica's and WCS's minutes not out of merit, but rather out of political pull - the entitled overall #2 pick in the draft taking minutes from those who deserve it more. Bagley becomes the fall guy for the diminishing minutes of Bjelica and/or WCS.

Bagley got abused by Jackson, there was a clip by clip break down in the game thread. If Bagley played well enough Joerger would want him playing more instead of Bjelica/WCS. I’ve noted him being a negative in production. He needs to compete and take these minutes IMO

 

[Kingster]

Bagley got abused by Jackson, there was a clip by clip break down in the game thread. If Bagley played well enough Joerger would want him playing more instead of Bjelica/WCS. I’ve noted him being a negative in production. He needs to compete and take these minutes IMO

No. You're wrong.

 

[dude12]

The 2 biggest possible potential sources for this fake news is Bagley’s dad because it would be an ignorant thing to do from a dad.....and the other possibl3 knucklehead would be Bill Simmons because he’s got his head so far up Ainge’s posterior and he’s a turd.

 

[Gliesian]

Maybe it was Vivek so he could fire Vlade b/c he wanted Doncic!!!

 

[Sac.Kings]

Why would you be mad at Dave? We started out hot and played above our heads. Some of our players were bound to come back to reality. That is not Dave's fault.

I never even expected to be 8-8 anyway and I'm thrilled. I like how Joerger has managed everything so far. The only thing I would change is put Bogi in at 3 in the starting lineup. Willie also has to realize when you're guarding a huge lob target like Capella, you simply cannot let him get behind you every time. There are issues with the roster, but to fire Joerger? It would be even worse than the Malone firing. He has guys believing and playing well. We are young and it should be obvious that we won't play consistently as we learn from mistakes.

 

[sactowndog]

I don't doubt that there's some truth to it. The Kings, when including the FO, have 50 or so agendas. Sh*t isn't always harmonious.

The part that I don't agree with is that Haynes has a direct line to what the FO is thinking. One thing Vlade has done well is keep FO leaks muted--no one saw the Boogie trade coming (even after Ham's infamous Boogie is the future report) and most folks thought the Bags > Doncic thing was a smokescreen--mostly because folks couldn't get a source to confirm or deny until the day of the draft.

The Bjelly over Bags thing, if true, would land at Vlade and Peja's feet more than it would land at Joeger's. They signed him and until recently, Bjelly starting over Bags was justified. So I have a hard time seeing that as reasoning for why the FO would be pissed at Joeger.

The above is basically a long winded way of saying this smells as though its from the players. If true, the likeliest are:

1. Skal. Lack of playing time. My retort and the FO's retort should be--you had two years to show out.

2. Giles. Out of the rotation. My retort and the FO's retort should be--you were in the rotation and played yourself out of it. Work yourself back in.

3. Bags. 20 minutes per game. My retort and the FO's retort should be--you're less than 20% of the way into your Rookie season. Continue putting your work in and let it come to you.

My money is on Skal's camp. He has the most to gain from the leak. Sometimes its that simple.

If it is Giles camp, I really don't know why they're complaining.

If it Bags, I don't doubt Puma has a say in it and Bags comes from a family that has a history of speaking out--his grandpa (Joe Caldwell, former NBA player) was effectively banned from the league. See here: https://bleacherreport.com/articles...coveted-recruit-with-unique-game-and-pedigree

I think my point is it’s from what I heard not coming from a “player’s camp”.

 

[macadocious]

This is why we can’t have nice things.

 

[SacTownKid]

Bogdanovic is on a 20 minute per night restriction as he continues to come back from injury. That likely has more to do with it than anything else.

I doubt it. In two games he's played near 25 and still not nearly enough shared minutes. It's actually cutting into the minutes Buddy was playing while the team was winning. Since Bogdan has come back Buddy has seen his average MPG drop with Joeger taking out Buddy after the first timeout to Bogdan in. Last night was the first real stretch we saw from them.

 

[burekijogurt]

Although I don't agree with it, given what has transpired, it seems that the best move for the organization at this point is to trade Bjelica. He has been instrumental in Kings loses and he is causing all the minutes disfunction to leak in the open. With Bjelica gone, Bagley can be moved to the starting lineup and there will be 25 minutes extra for Bagley/Giles/Skal to split among themselves. That will give enough minutes for development to all the young bigs with Skal probably getting the least, but its still better than nothing. This will remove the point of contention and bring everyone in the organization back to the same page. In addition, we might get something for him if there is a team out there that needs a stretch 4. Maybe we can get an equivalent veteran SF thats on a short term contract.

 

[SacTownKid]

Although I don't agree with it, given what has transpired, it seems that the best move for the organization at this point is to trade Bjelica. He has been instrumental in Kings loses and he is causing all the minutes disfunction to leak in the open. With Bjelica gone, Bagley can be moved to the starting lineup and there will be 25 minutes extra for Bagley/Giles/Skal to split among themselves. That will give enough minutes for development to all the young bigs with Skal probably getting the least, but its still better than nothing. This will remove the point of contention and bring everyone in the organization back to the same page. In addition, we might get something for him if there is a team out there that needs a stretch 4. Maybe we can get an equivalent veteran SF thats on a short term contract.

That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's not remotely necessary unless Bjelica makes it an issue. This a roster that needs to see it's rotation condensed and Bjelica should be one of the components that should be in that unit of core players. Whether as a starter or not, I don't know, but there are plenty of minutes for the Kings three main bigs. If they need some advice go ask Rick Adelman for some help. He made the 3 big rotation an art form. Now, the worst thing they could do is attempt to platoon. If they go back to that then get ready because things will head down hill on all fronts in a hurry because they've somewhat been able to escape that and won't want to return to it. If they were determined to compete last season and squashed the young guys to do it, it would be ultimate KANGZ to do the "right thing" a year later when they are finally competing.

The are only a few issues I have with the handling of the team recently and that's the trio of Kings perimeter stars not sharing the floor and the stretches of no pick and roll. We also haven't seen much Bjelica running pick and roll with Willie. That was starting to become a staple play. That's a good way to see if you can get Bjelica involved.

 

[rosa u podne]

Although I don't agree with it, given what has transpired, it seems that the best move for the organization at this point is to trade Bjelica. He has been instrumental in Kings loses and he is causing all the minutes disfunction to leak in the open. With Bjelica gone, Bagley can be moved to the starting lineup and there will be 25 minutes extra for Bagley/Giles/Skal to split among themselves. That will give enough minutes for development to all the young bigs with Skal probably getting the least, but its still better than nothing. This will remove the point of contention and bring everyone in the organization back to the same page. In addition, we might get something for him if there is a team out there that needs a stretch 4. Maybe we can get an equivalent veteran SF thats on a short term contract.

I don't think Vlade would trade him. Bjelica agreed to contract with Kings because he did not want to move his familly each year. Besides, Bjelica is unique player in Kings rotation. Skal could count as a strech 4, however, I don't think he will ever be better then end of bench player. I don't think Kings need to rush. I think they will have better idea about Bagley and WCS in a month, so if Bagley shows he can play WCS role, Kings can trade WCS and gain better return.

 

[burekijogurt]

That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's not remotely necessary unless Bjelica makes it an issue. This a roster that needs to see it's rotation condensed and Bjelica should be one of the components that should be in that unit of core players. Whether as a starter or not, I don't know, but there are plenty of minutes for the Kings three main bigs. If they need some advice go ask Rick Adelman for some help. He made the 3 big rotation an art form. Now, the worst thing they could do is attempt to platoon. If they go back to that then get ready because things will head down hill on all fronts in a hurry because they've somewhat been able to escape that and won't want to return to it. If they were determined to compete last season and squashed the young guys to do it, it would be ultimate KANGZ to do the "right thing" a year later when they are finally competing.

The are only a few issues I have with the handling of the team recently and that's the trio of Kings perimeter stars not sharing the floor and the stretches of no pick and roll. We also haven't seen much Bjelica running pick and roll with Willie. That was starting to become a staple play. That's a good way to see if you can get Bjelica involved.

Everything you say makes sense to me. In agreement on condesing the rotation, avoiding platooning, playing more pnr, playing Buddy/Bogdan/Fox together. The only comment I have is that the disagreement, as reported, is between the front office and the coach. Meaning its not whether Bjelica would make an issue out of being moved to the bench, its whether coach Joerger would move him to the bench!

 

[macadocious]

The speculation here is astonishing.

Do we really think Vlade signed Bjelica so Joerger would play him 12 min a game?

Did Joerger do a bad job developing the younger players from last year?


This is bizarre.

 

[burekijogurt]

I don't think Vlade would trade him. Bjelica agreed to contract with Kings because he did not want to move his familly each year. Besides, Bjelica is unique player in Kings rotation. Skal could count as a strech 4, however, I don't think he will ever be better then end of bench player. I don't think Kings need to rush. I think they will have better idea about Bagley and WCS in a month, so if Bagley shows he can play WCS role, Kings can trade WCS and gain better return.

This is what I thought as well, especially given the family considerations when Bjelica signed on. This is all very strange. but I also thought that they were handling Bagley to everyone's satisfaction. Meaning I thought that Bagley was getting enough minutes, that they were meaningful, and that they were bringing him along at the right pace in the current stage of his development. But apparently at least someone in the organization does not think so. I might have jumped the gun a bit with the trade talk since they can get Bagley more minutes without trading a useful player such as Bjelica as SacTownKid pointed out, and I do not think that Bjelica would make a stink about it. But apparently coach has been resistant to this.

 

[Gliesian]

Is there a rift between GM and coach? YES
Does Vlade have any intention of firing Joerger? NO

Haynes did us dirty. He's dirty underwear.

 

[The Hammer]

This is what I thought as well, especially given the family considerations when Bjelica signed on. This is all very strange. but I also thought that they were handling Bagley to everyone's satisfaction. Meaning I thought that Bagley was getting enough minutes, that they were meaningful, and that they were bringing him along at the right pace in the current stage of his development. But apparently at least someone in the organization does not think so. I might have jumped the gun a bit with the trade talk since they can get Bagley more minutes without trading a useful player such as Bjelica as SacTownKid pointed out, and I do not think that Bjelica would make a stink about it. But apparently coach has been resistant to this.

Amazing we get to trade talk so soon. Just amazing. (No judgement). I don't want any player gone, none. I see no trades in sight until these guys show us what they have and every player is improving at such a rapid rate there is no telling where it settles. But now is not the time you trade anyone, including Bjelica. He could be a special player off the bench for years to come for us. Gotta be open to that.

 

[63royals]

Yahoo wants page hits, so they publish something contentious based on an anonymous source to stir up some controversy. Next, the press dutifully asks the team, and we have a full-blown manufactured controversy. Yahoo gets their page hits and Kings fans get another bouquet from the media. The only solution is not to play.

 

[Blob]

The 2 biggest possible potential sources for this fake news is Bagley’s dad because it would be an ignorant thing to do from a dad.....and the other possibl3 knucklehead would be Bill Simmons because he’s got his head so far up Ainge’s posterior and he’s a turd.

If this guy Haynes is citing anonymous sources and those sources happen to be Simmons or Bagley's Dad then it is the writer who is accountable for sloppy and irresponsible reporting. The source of the fake news in your hypothetical scenario is still Haynes. If he heard from an external bias source that the coach was in trouble, it would be incumbent upon him to verify this information with an internal source. If he couldn't or didn't have one he shouldn't run the story. In this case, he is just looking for attention and looking to stir the pot.

 

[The Hammer]

Yahoo wants page hits, so they publish something contentious based on an anonymous source to stir up some controversy. Next, the press dutifully asks the team, and we have a full-blown manufactured controversy. Yahoo gets their page hits and Kings fans get another bouquet from the media. The only solution is not to play.

I wanna buy this good man a beer.

 

[Blob]

Although I don't agree with it, given what has transpired, it seems that the best move for the organization at this point is to trade Bjelica. He has been instrumental in Kings loses and he is causing all the minutes disfunction to leak in the open. With Bjelica gone, Bagley can be moved to the starting lineup and there will be 25 minutes extra for Bagley/Giles/Skal to split among themselves. That will give enough minutes for development to all the young bigs with Skal probably getting the least, but its still better than nothing. This will remove the point of contention and bring everyone in the organization back to the same page. In addition, we might get something for him if there is a team out there that needs a stretch 4. Maybe we can get an equivalent veteran SF thats on a short term contract.

Why is it a priority to develop Skal? What has he done to command minutes? He hasn't improved in his entire tenure, continuously makes dumb fouls, and doesn't look like he can keep up in our fast tempo. Here is another problem with the composition of our roster and trend of the league, none of our bigs besides Bjelica really looks like a PF:

• Giles - Center
• Willie - Center
• Koufos - Center
• Skal - Center
• Bagley - Center

This is a problem! This is a problem the coach cannot fix. The GM can address is it, most likely trading Skal, Koufos and/or Willie to free up minutes for Bagley and Giles at center, and ideally in the process getting us a more versatile defender on the front line. Bjeclica is NOT a guy I would trade. He has unique complementary value despite his recent struggles. He spaces the floor, he can pass. For awhile there he showed some good D too.

 

[John Galt]

Maybe it was Vivek so he could fire Vlade b/c he wanted Doncic!!!

I can't believe that if Vivek wants Doncic, he would not have Doncic. I guess it could be true but I don't think so. If Vivek wanted Doncic he could have fired Vlade on his way to the podium (so to speak).

 

[White_Chocolate]

I can't believe that if Vivek wants Doncic, he would not have Doncic. I guess it could be true but I don't think so. If Vivek wanted Doncic he could have fired Vlade on his way to the podium (so to speak).

This.

 

[White_Chocolate]

The national media just wants the Kings to remain the Kangz instead of allowing them to grow into something genuinely enjoyable to watch.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Joeger’s interview indicates internal strife for sure but to what extent we don’t really know. Feels like we are getting Viveked again. We aren’t even 20 games in, have the best record we have had in years and we are worried about playing time for our rookie who hasn’t even played well? Complete nonesense. Give him time to develop.

 

[Nokidding]

Pretty easy solution move Bjelica to the 3 and start Marvin or just trade Bjelica while his value is still high. Weather he's playing the 3 or the 4 won't matter if we don't use him and give him touches he's not going to be effective regardless.

 

[SLAB]

Even with our SF depth at 0, I can’t see Bjelica getting any minutes there.