Athletic Article On the Kings Today

#61
I agree 100% about the billboard. On the 'other' board I noticed a poster got lambasted by the mob for saying he didn't think the billboard was a good idea.

As far as the injuries go, I 100% disagree. Kings played .500 ball with CoJo starting. Much worse with Fox starting. Bagley is one of the worst players in the league so they're actually better with him being out. Holmes being out has been a hit to the team but not enough to move the needle enough to say "one more year".

Injuries aren't the problem here, it's talent. They simply don't have enough of it. They are literally a Luka Doncic away from being good. That ship has sailed and the only way out at this point is to rebuild again. All the work he's done from the moment he got the GM spot came to a head when he lucked out and got that #2 pick and he completely squandered it. It's over at this point. The current situation they're in is just a waste of time from this point forward unless something miraculous happens and they land a top tier talent without having to give up the farm. Other than that there's realistically no way out of this mess.

This is the most obvious time for Vivek to meddle. The people in place don't have the chops to be successful in their positions. Walton, Vlade, everyone. Vivek doesn't have the chops either but there's nothing we can do about that so we just have to hope he gets lucky and hires people that do.

I think what this article shows is that ownership isn't happy with the massive investment they made this off-season in Vlade's plan and it's back-fired in a huge way. Spent $60 mil this off-season on ineffective Free Agents (sans Holmes) or $80 million if you want to include the Buddy extension, fired the coach who lead us to by far the best finish in the past 13 years. Get to watch a HoF-trajectory player dominate for a western conference rival thats headed to the playoffs while our pick can't get on the floor and he's horrible even when he does play. This was the penultimate summer for Vlade and just about everything has gone wrong and taken a turn for the worse.

The thing that's always intrigued me is these ownership groups didn't accumulate their wealth (or most of them anyway), by being dumb and making bad business deals. Yet they don't do due diligence when turning the keys over to their multi-billion dollar business. In a year they were promised tremendous growth and a playoff berth, the team has significantly regressed in every way. Just got to hope they're willing to cut bait with everyone and not fall victim to sunk cost fallacy.
 
#62
But I would rather have Fox on my team rather than CoJo. If I had to pick one anyway but that's just me. :)
Absolutely ;)

By the way, thanks for all you guys did to help keep the team in Sac years ago.
You're welcome. We just did our small part to back up the big parts. Those were good times.

Since we're on the subject and someone else mentioned a viewing party, if anyone is local and can host a viewing party I'll bring my copy of Playing to Win and Down in the Valley.

I just require food to be served like pizza or a BBQ. I show up to things when there's free food. :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#63
You're welcome. We just did our small part to back up the big parts. Those were good times.

Since we're on the subject and someone else mentioned a viewing party, if anyone is local and can host a viewing party I'll bring my copy of Playing to Win and Down in the Valley.

I just require food to be served like pizza or a BBQ. I show up to things when there's free food. :)
what about an outdoor showing?
 
#69
I am a firm believer in drafting the best player available and not the best fit.
Funny you mention this because I was thinking of posting something similar to this ideology but just hadn’t got around it yet.

But my reasoning for thinking about it was the widespread belief (IIRC Vlade has sort of confirmed) that he felt Bagley was a better fit with DeAaron Fox.

Therein lies the problem.

Like you, I don’t work for the KINGS and have never held a job in the field. My opinions and knowledge solely come from following all of the major sports for 40+ years now. And in doing that, you gain experience from seeing decades of moves, tactics and strategies. You see what’s failed over and over and what’s succeeded consistently.

Times do change, of course, and some things can’t or won’t work as they used to. But there are many tried and true rules of thumb that rarely if ever change.

IMO, one rule of thumb that rarely changes is basic draft strategy. And it applies uniformly to all sports.

Bad teams devoid of talent will typically fail when they draft for need over best talent or BPA. Good teams are much more able to get away with the strategy. Because they have a larger margin for error and aren’t as devastated when a player doesn’t work out.

As evidenced by their recent history and selecting in the lottery for well over a decade, the KINGS aren’t close to being in position to worry about fit. They should always be of the mindset of acquiring the best, most talented players they can then see what fits and what doesn’t.

For example, had they selected #77 — who was widely believed to be a more well rounded and skilled player — instead of Bagley and he somehow didn’t fit right with Fox, a decision on whom to keep and whom to trade could have been made at a later time. And I truly believe the player they traded, if it came down to it, would bring back greater value than a less talented ‘fit’ player that also didn’t work out.

But imagine for one moment that it did fit? Where might the KINGS be now?

Hindsight is 20/20 and I realize that. Everyone knows for sure now that #77 is a flat out stud and that none of the concerns that were brought up predraft are legit. But even not knowing that beforehand, it’s about maximizing odds. Taking the best player, sans known character, injury or drug issues, is a way of maximizing odds.

To summarize, I share the same belief as you do. Specially when it comes to perennial lottery teams.
 
Last edited:
#71
We’re all Kings fans though. It would be best in a private setting. I’ve done a few of these already and there hasn’t been any issues including for several from this forum.
+1

Of course I was only part of small gathering with you guys, but it was great.

But I also understand @macadocious ’s concern. Not only inviting strangers to his home, but possibly folks from the board that haven't mixed well together or perhaps that the host doesn't particularly care for. You just never know how that might go.

But I also recognize the need for privacy since these things can’t be shown in a public setting.
 
Last edited:
#72
I don’t get the meddling argument. Vlade has had 5 years to make it work. Certainly enough of a sample size to show that he’s simply not the right person.

I think it’s important to remember that whether we’re for firing or keeping Vlade, we all want the same thing—for the Kings to win, and to win consistently.

I defended Vlade from the most common complaints for years—he’s dumb, likes Euros...None of it was true. What is true is he trail blazed into the NBA, became beloved because of his play and personality, and because of those experiences, he only knows one way to operate: win now, tomorrow is not guaranteed. That philosophy has lead to 3 cycles of trying to catch lightening in a bottle. We’re looking at cycle number 4 this offseason. His decision to double down on cycle #3 at the trade deadline was the final straw for me (not punting Bogi n Bjelly for assets when he knew Bags n Holmes would be out for an extended time). It’s time for a change.
 
#73
I think what this article shows is that ownership isn't happy with the massive investment they made this off-season in Vlade's plan and it's back-fired in a huge way. Spent $60 mil this off-season on ineffective Free Agents (sans Holmes) or $80 million if you want to include the Buddy extension, fired the coach who lead us to by far the best finish in the past 13 years. Get to watch a HoF-trajectory player dominate for a western conference rival thats headed to the playoffs while our pick can't get on the floor and he's horrible even when he does play. This was the penultimate summer for Vlade and just about everything has gone wrong and taken a turn for the worse.

The thing that's always intrigued me is these ownership groups didn't accumulate their wealth (or most of them anyway), by being dumb and making bad business deals. Yet they don't do due diligence when turning the keys over to their multi-billion dollar business. In a year they were promised tremendous growth and a playoff berth, the team has significantly regressed in every way. Just got to hope they're willing to cut bait with everyone and not fall victim to sunk cost fallacy.
Actually, this argument works against firing Vlade. The owners are smart and are generally frugal. The only reason they keep Vlade and Walton are their contracts. If it was one owner with gigantic pockets (like Ballmer), they're gone. But the Kings are owned by a group of folks, with different cash flow situations. They would not be happy with having to fork up millions to fire two recently signed execs.
 
#75
You're welcome. We just did our small part to back up the big parts. Those were good times.

Since we're on the subject and someone else mentioned a viewing party, if anyone is local and can host a viewing party I'll bring my copy of Playing to Win and Down in the Valley.

I just require food to be served like pizza or a BBQ. I show up to things when there's free food. :)
I can attest to this. I hosted Mike and a couple other KF.com guys at my house. I would encourage someone else to do the same. It was pretty cool meeting folks from the site.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
#76
I don’t get the meddling argument. Vlade has had 5 years to make it work. Certainly enough of a sample size to show that he’s simply not the right person.

I think it’s important to remember that whether we’re for firing or keeping Vlade, we all want the same thing—for the Kings to win, and to win consistently.

I defended Vlade from the most common complaints for years—he’s dumb, likes Euros...None of it was true. What is true is he trail blazed into the NBA, became beloved because of his play and personality, and because of those experiences, he only knows one way to operate: win now, tomorrow is not guaranteed. That philosophy has lead to 3 cycles of trying to catch lightening in a bottle. We’re looking at cycle number 4 this offseason. His decision to double down on cycle #3 at the trade deadline was the final straw for me (not punting Bogi n Bjelly for assets when he knew Bags n Holmes would be out for an extended time). It’s time for a change.
Are you really going to "Carthago delenda est" every speech before the Senate, Cato?
 
#77
I have to agree. I even ponied up for a year's subscription - something I swore early on I would not do

Having said that, I really want to give Buddy the benefit of the doubt and seriously hope he's not still sniveling to the media. But, again, all things considered, you could be right - and I say that with a lot of reluctance.
the Athletic really is quality journalism, and at a pretty reasonable cost
 
#78
+1

Of course I was only part of small gathering with you guys, but it was great.

But I also understand @macadocious ’s concern. Not only inviting strangers to his home, but possibly folks from the board that haven't mixed well together or perhaps that the host doesn't particularly care for. You just never know how that might go.

But I also recognize the need for privacy since these things can’t be shown in a public setting.
neighbors came over Sunday and the husband was actually telling me how he had mike over along with his own (neighbor) friends to watch. Told me he would do it again if I was interested. But I agree with having folks over that you don’t know. My wife already thinks I spend too much time in these forums, so I imagine it’s going to be a big no on inviting said forum to our home lol. But sounds like you can just have your own friends over and mike comes with the doc and then you just provide food/drink. And if the wives have an issue with strangers, just make mike eat his pizza outside and watch through the window :p
 
#79
We just invested $94 million dollars in Buddy Hield and he's now the fastest player to make 800 3-pointers in history and he's done it with a 41% career three point percentage. Those are huge reasons why we should continue developing his talent. He's an important part of our team. While he was slumping I was reading posts here about how we need to trade him right away for anything we can get. Huh? A guy is bad for a month and we're going to throw out the previous 3 years because he's ruining our playoff chances? That's the kind of short-term reactionary thinking which has gotten us into this situation. I don't know what's happening in the locker room day to day, but I feel like Buddy has earned enough good will that we shouldn't start searching around for an exit at the first sign of trouble. Sticking him on the bench to "teach him a lesson" or whatever it was felt like an overreaction to me. This is why fans putting pressure on the team to make moves is problematic. Fans by and large want to see immediate results. Those immediate results are pointless though if they don't lead to sustained success.

I get that other teams have homer announcers too, that's not really what bothers me. There's a combination of factors at work here. Some of the cities you mentioned are large media markets with 3 or 4 teams. San Antonio and Utah have stable front offices which consistently put together teams who exceed expectations and are probably worthy of praise. What's different about our situation is that there's an elevated level of interest having just the one team and there's a relatively empty media landscape. The Kings PR department has a lot of opportunity to influence the narrative in local media and at the national level coverage is almost non-existent so there's not a lot of push back anywhere. While I'm okay with Vlade or anyone else making mistakes, at some point they have to learn from them and stop making them. Making mistakes is actually one of the primary ways any of us learns what not to do. The reaction to the mistakes has to be appropriate though. Firing everybody and starting over could lead to improvements but not if we repeat the same mistakes under a new coach or GM. Trying to erase those mistakes from the narrative is not something you do if you're aware of them and learning from them, though.

I don't hold Vivek and co. accountable for anything the Maloofs did but they also should learn from those mistakes too. I agree that big changes need to happen but this attitude of "we've earned the right to voice our displeasure" doesn't sit right with me either. You could potentially break that 14 or 15 years up to where different parties are responsible for different chunks of it. Plus, Celtics, and Sixers fans have years of NBA history to point to and markets which will always attract players. We can't really operate the same way those teams do. The one thing we had going for us is that players like playing in front of Sacramento fans. If we take that part away too, it makes it even harder to sell future players on Sacramento as a place to build your career. Maybe it's not our fault that our situation is different and ownership has failed to deliver a winning team but we can only control our part in it. I'm just asking if it's possible to put those last 14 years behind us and appreciate this team we have now. When Buddy has a bad game or Bagley misses a defensive switch or Barnes gives us 20 empty minutes, don't pull 14 years of frustration into it and make those problems bigger than they are. And if it is possible for us to exhibit that level of patience, then maybe it's possible for the front office to do the same. Maybe don't blast professional journeymen like DeWayne Dedmon and George Hill for failing to transform our culture into a winning one overnight and then chase them out of town. Don't draft players, throw them to the wolves, and then cut them loose and blame them for not working hard enough. We've allowed a culture to develop here which is toxic and that has to change first for any other changes to be successful.
You are correct. The toxic atmosphere and mentality the fans have with the Kings right now is bad. Patience is something that does not exist here anymore. We've developed a what have you done for me lately culture.
We just invested $94 million dollars in Buddy Hield and he's now the fastest player to make 800 3-pointers in history and he's done it with a 41% career three point percentage. Those are huge reasons why we should continue developing his talent. He's an important part of our team. While he was slumping I was reading posts here about how we need to trade him right away for anything we can get. Huh? A guy is bad for a month and we're going to throw out the previous 3 years because he's ruining our playoff chances? That's the kind of short-term reactionary thinking which has gotten us into this situation. I don't know what's happening in the locker room day to day, but I feel like Buddy has earned enough good will that we shouldn't start searching around for an exit at the first sign of trouble. Sticking him on the bench to "teach him a lesson" or whatever it was felt like an overreaction to me. This is why fans putting pressure on the team to make moves is problematic. Fans by and large want to see immediate results. Those immediate results are pointless though if they don't lead to sustained success.

I get that other teams have homer announcers too, that's not really what bothers me. There's a combination of factors at work here. Some of the cities you mentioned are large media markets with 3 or 4 teams. San Antonio and Utah have stable front offices which consistently put together teams who exceed expectations and are probably worthy of praise. What's different about our situation is that there's an elevated level of interest having just the one team and there's a relatively empty media landscape. The Kings PR department has a lot of opportunity to influence the narrative in local media and at the national level coverage is almost non-existent so there's not a lot of push back anywhere. While I'm okay with Vlade or anyone else making mistakes, at some point they have to learn from them and stop making them. Making mistakes is actually one of the primary ways any of us learns what not to do. The reaction to the mistakes has to be appropriate though. Firing everybody and starting over could lead to improvements but not if we repeat the same mistakes under a new coach or GM. Trying to erase those mistakes from the narrative is not something you do if you're aware of them and learning from them, though.

I don't hold Vivek and co. accountable for anything the Maloofs did but they also should learn from those mistakes too. I agree that big changes need to happen but this attitude of "we've earned the right to voice our displeasure" doesn't sit right with me either. You could potentially break that 14 or 15 years up to where different parties are responsible for different chunks of it. Plus, Celtics, and Sixers fans have years of NBA history to point to and markets which will always attract players. We can't really operate the same way those teams do. The one thing we had going for us is that players like playing in front of Sacramento fans. If we take that part away too, it makes it even harder to sell future players on Sacramento as a place to build your career. Maybe it's not our fault that our situation is different and ownership has failed to deliver a winning team but we can only control our part in it. I'm just asking if it's possible to put those last 14 years behind us and appreciate this team we have now. When Buddy has a bad game or Bagley misses a defensive switch or Barnes gives us 20 empty minutes, don't pull 14 years of frustration into it and make those problems bigger than they are. And if it is possible for us to exhibit that level of patience, then maybe it's possible for the front office to do the same. Maybe don't blast professional journeymen like DeWayne Dedmon and George Hill for failing to transform our culture into a winning one overnight and then chase them out of town. Don't draft players, throw them to the wolves, and then cut them loose and blame them for not working hard enough. We've allowed a culture to develop here which is toxic and that has to change first for any other changes to be successful.
I 100% agree with you. The culture around the team these days can at best be described as what have you done for me lately, and at worst it's Chernobyl levels of toxic. Unfortunately, the only thing that can increase buy-in from a fanbase and turn around a teams culture is winning. What we have working for us is that we don't even require that much winning haha. We'd be happy with the 8th seed or a .500 record. Our expectations are not out of this world. Look at last season. The most positive environment we've had in years and we finished with 39 wins.
 
#80
+1

Of course I was only part of small gathering with you guys, but it was great.

But I also understand @macadocious ’s concern. Not only inviting strangers to his home, but possibly folks from the board that haven't mixed well together or perhaps that the host doesn't particularly care for. You just never know how that might go.

But I also recognize the need for privacy since these things can’t be shown in a public setting.
I totally understand their concern too.

Hopefully someone can host and provide some snacks while I bring the movies.
 
#82
neighbors came over Sunday and the husband was actually telling me how he had mike over along with his own (neighbor) friends to watch. Told me he would do it again if I was interested. But I agree with having folks over that you don’t know. My wife already thinks I spend too much time in these forums, so I imagine it’s going to be a big no on inviting said forum to our home lol. But sounds like you can just have your own friends over and mike comes with the doc and then you just provide food/drink. And if the wives have an issue with strangers, just make mike eat his pizza outside and watch through the window :p
Yeah that's not how it works. :D
 
#83
We just invested $94 million dollars in Buddy Hield and he's now the fastest player to make 800 3-pointers in history and he's done it with a 41% career three point percentage. Those are huge reasons why we should continue developing his talent. He's an important part of our team. While he was slumping I was reading posts here about how we need to trade him right away for anything we can get. Huh? A guy is bad for a month and we're going to throw out the previous 3 years because he's ruining our playoff chances? That's the kind of short-term reactionary thinking which has gotten us into this situation. I don't know what's happening in the locker room day to day, but I feel like Buddy has earned enough good will that we shouldn't start searching around for an exit at the first sign of trouble. Sticking him on the bench to "teach him a lesson" or whatever it was felt like an overreaction to me. This is why fans putting pressure on the team to make moves is problematic. Fans by and large want to see immediate results. Those immediate results are pointless though if they don't lead to sustained success.

I get that other teams have homer announcers too, that's not really what bothers me. There's a combination of factors at work here. Some of the cities you mentioned are large media markets with 3 or 4 teams. San Antonio and Utah have stable front offices which consistently put together teams who exceed expectations and are probably worthy of praise. What's different about our situation is that there's an elevated level of interest having just the one team and there's a relatively empty media landscape. The Kings PR department has a lot of opportunity to influence the narrative in local media and at the national level coverage is almost non-existent so there's not a lot of push back anywhere. While I'm okay with Vlade or anyone else making mistakes, at some point they have to learn from them and stop making them. Making mistakes is actually one of the primary ways any of us learns what not to do. The reaction to the mistakes has to be appropriate though. Firing everybody and starting over could lead to improvements but not if we repeat the same mistakes under a new coach or GM. Trying to erase those mistakes from the narrative is not something you do if you're aware of them and learning from them, though.

I don't hold Vivek and co. accountable for anything the Maloofs did but they also should learn from those mistakes too. I agree that big changes need to happen but this attitude of "we've earned the right to voice our displeasure" doesn't sit right with me either. You could potentially break that 14 or 15 years up to where different parties are responsible for different chunks of it. Plus, Celtics, and Sixers fans have years of NBA history to point to and markets which will always attract players. We can't really operate the same way those teams do. The one thing we had going for us is that players like playing in front of Sacramento fans. If we take that part away too, it makes it even harder to sell future players on Sacramento as a place to build your career. Maybe it's not our fault that our situation is different and ownership has failed to deliver a winning team but we can only control our part in it. I'm just asking if it's possible to put those last 14 years behind us and appreciate this team we have now. When Buddy has a bad game or Bagley misses a defensive switch or Barnes gives us 20 empty minutes, don't pull 14 years of frustration into it and make those problems bigger than they are. And if it is possible for us to exhibit that level of patience, then maybe it's possible for the front office to do the same. Maybe don't blast professional journeymen like DeWayne Dedmon and George Hill for failing to transform our culture into a winning one overnight and then chase them out of town. Don't draft players, throw them to the wolves, and then cut them loose and blame them for not working hard enough. We've allowed a culture to develop here which is toxic and that has to change first for any other changes to be successful.
I really don't understand why you all the sudden think the feelings of fans on message boards has any bearing on the success of the franchise. Us pounding away on a keyboard here at KF might be annoying you but it certanily isn't causing Dedmon to miss wide open shots or flub 5ft bounce passes. We didn't chase anyone out of town. Hill and Dedmon didn't play up to their standards, got demoted, sulked and then promptly got traded. That was on them, the coach and the GM. Has zero to do with what any of us here have said.
 
#84
We’re all Kings fans though. It would be best in a private setting. I’ve done a few of these already and there hasn’t been any issues including for several from this forum.
Ya, I wasn't thinking like at a park in Sacramento. I have a couple parks near my house that nobody is ever at near granite bay that we could set up a screen and projector and watch with some BBQ and beers. My wife is not comfortable having a bunch of random people over, but this spring/summer I would be totally down with setting that up.
 
#85
The toxic atmosphere and mentality the fans have with the Kings right now is bad. Patience is something that does not exist here anymore. We've developed a what have you done for me lately culture.
Respectfully disagree.

It's been 15 years, the longest drought in NBA history, since this team has made the playoffs. Nobody who's still here should be accused of lacking patience.

If anyone has a right to be frustrated and vent about how horribly this franchise has been run, through the regimes of multiple owners and GMs, it's those of us who have chosen to stick around rather than jump ship to the Warriors or Lakers (y'all see the bandwagon turnout every time those teams play in Sac).

Nobody is gonna tell me I'm not a fan, just because I think Vlade (one of my favorite players from the Golden Era btw) is a massive failure at GM, and Vivek is a meddling goblin of an owner.

Landing the 2nd pick in the Luka draft should have been the reward for all of our patience. A franchise player landed right in our laps, and Vlade got cute and blew it. That's the hair that broke the camel's back for a lot of us.

Those of us who don't drink the Kool-aid aren't being negative because we're impatient. We're being negative because of the utterly bleak and hopeless future of this franchise while it remains in the control of idiots.

Patience is waiting for Vlade to get fired. Patience is waiting for Vivek to sell.

I'll be around.
 
#86
Ya, I wasn't thinking like at a park in Sacramento. I have a couple parks near my house that nobody is ever at near granite bay that we could set up a screen and projector and watch with some BBQ and beers. My wife is not comfortable having a bunch of random people over, but this spring/summer I would be totally down with setting that up.
If we go with that then we'd need to keep the date and time private.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#87
Respectfully disagree.

It's been 15 years, the longest drought in NBA history, since this team has made the playoffs. Nobody who's still here should be accused of lacking patience.

If anyone has a right to be frustrated and vent about how horribly this franchise has been run, through the regimes of multiple owners and GMs, it's those of us who have chosen to stick around rather than jump ship to the Warriors or Lakers (y'all see the bandwagon turnout every time those teams play in Sac).

Nobody is gonna tell me I'm not a fan, just because I think Vlade (one of my favorite players from the Golden Era btw) is a massive failure at GM, and Vivek is a meddling goblin of an owner.

Landing the 2nd pick in the Luka draft should have been the reward for all of our patience. A franchise player landed right in our laps, and Vlade got cute and blew it. That's the hair that broke the camel's back for a lot of us.

Those of us who don't drink the Kool-aid aren't being negative because we're impatient. We're being negative because of the utterly bleak and hopeless future of this franchise while it remains in the control of idiots.

Patience is waiting for Vlade to get fired. Patience is waiting for Vivek to sell.

I'll be around.
I cannot like this post enough. Well said, sir,
 
#88
Respectfully disagree.

It's been 15 years, the longest drought in NBA history, since this team has made the playoffs. Nobody who's still here should be accused of lacking patience.

If anyone has a right to be frustrated and vent about how horribly this franchise has been run, through the regimes of multiple owners and GMs, it's those of us who have chosen to stick around rather than jump ship to the Warriors or Lakers (y'all see the bandwagon turnout every time those teams play in Sac).

Nobody is gonna tell me I'm not a fan, just because I think Vlade (one of my favorite players from the Golden Era btw) is a massive failure at GM, and Vivek is a meddling goblin of an owner.

Landing the 2nd pick in the Luka draft should have been the reward for all of our patience. A franchise player landed right in our laps, and Vlade got cute and blew it. That's the hair that broke the camel's back for a lot of us.

Those of us who don't drink the Kool-aid aren't being negative because we're impatient. We're being negative because of the utterly bleak and hopeless future of this franchise while it remains in the control of idiots.

Patience is waiting for Vlade to get fired. Patience is waiting for Vivek to sell.

I'll be around.
Bravo, bravo.