At what point is enough enough? (split)
- Thread starter Kingster
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Maybe the trick is to have a dopey expression on your face, instead of being scary looking?
kupman
Starter
This thread really begs the question that divides. Is it the coach, players and even FO that has lead the Kings to be so bad or is it that DMC is so difficult to play with and coach? So, if next year we get a new coach and surround DMC with with different players the same issue will be debated again. The anti-DMC will state "see, nobody can thrive with this guy and his attitude," while the pro side will say "the FO has screwed up again and surrounded the best big man in a generation with an incompetent coach and bad players."
I have already seen enough bad basketball to be open to trading DMC for the right deal, although I am not demanding it. I also have grown tired of the blame game. I am more of the attitude that sometimes relationships just do not work-out and it may be better for both parties to try and find happiness and success elsewhere.
So I guess the short answer is I have already reached my point and will not be upset if DMC is dealt - unless of course he is given away for not much.
I have already seen enough bad basketball to be open to trading DMC for the right deal, although I am not demanding it. I also have grown tired of the blame game. I am more of the attitude that sometimes relationships just do not work-out and it may be better for both parties to try and find happiness and success elsewhere.
So I guess the short answer is I have already reached my point and will not be upset if DMC is dealt - unless of course he is given away for not much.
Let me answer your question with a question: if it's Cousins, then what explains that we experienced four straight lottery years and went through five coaches in those four years before he got here?
mcsluggo
Starter
i'll start to think enough is enough when i start to feel like Cousins seems less invested in the team and less invested in winning than the coach.
right now Karl is the newbie in town, that seems like his bags are still packed in a closet somewhere. Karl is the one that appears to view working here as a necessary to cashing a paycheck, and karl is the one that appears to be mailing it in until the inevitable release of sweet sweet severance checks....
right now Karl is the newbie in town, that seems like his bags are still packed in a closet somewhere. Karl is the one that appears to view working here as a necessary to cashing a paycheck, and karl is the one that appears to be mailing it in until the inevitable release of sweet sweet severance checks....
Pretty much every time I've reached my breaking point with someone or something it has happened in the moment rather than being premeditated. I can't recall sitting down and thinking, "if that person does that thing one more time" or "if that bit of technology fails on my three more times" that I'd be done with them/it. So I can't say when enough would be enough other than I'll know when it happens.
Last year I'd had enough of Pete D'Alessandro after the discussion at KHTK. That might have been about the point that I'd also had enough of Chris Mullin and Vivek Ranadive, at least in terms of the latter's meddling in how the team was run.
This year I was just about fed up with George Karl when he said the reason for the poor team defense was that he "doesn't have enough defensive players" but I really reached the point where I'd completely had enough of George Karl when John Welch was interviewed by Ham and explained that "everything was better early" and that "it's always time to break".
I've already had enough. Enough losing. Enough dysfunction. Enough time wasted watching this terrible franchise flounder year after year.
I get very tired of seeing Cousins argue with officials. They are never going to change their call and all he's going to do is bias them (consciously or subconsciously) towards not giving him calls, perpetuating a crappy cycle. I get very tired of DeMarcus getting frustrated and letting his emotions take him out of a play either because he doesn't run back on defense or because he's got all his energy focused on something other than the next play of the game. I don't like his behavior. It shows him to be mentally weak and not the type of player that you can count on.
So it's understandable that Cousins has become a lightning rod for fan frustrations, especially when Napear is helping direct those frustrations towards Cousins. I wish DeMarcus had his talent and Tim Duncan's mindset. But he doesn't. So have I given up on him? I don't even know. Or care honestly.
Because Cousin's attitude isn't why this team is terrible. It may play a part but a horrible defensive scheme and inexcusable lack of defensive effort, an ill-fitting offense, a lack of ball movement, too many turnovers, poor outside shooting, an overall lack of talent (and mismatched talent), a lack of trust between the players and the coaches, instability in the front office and ownership are ALL part of why the Kings suck.
So what does whether or not I've had enough of Cousins' on court antics matter anyway? Are they really why this team can't win more games than they lose? I'm asking honestly. Do people believe that he's what's holding back the Kings from winning, or is he just an obvious scapegoat because we're tired of seeing him act out?
What's the path forward? Do people really believe that this organization can build a winner around DeMarcus? Do people really believe they can trade Boogie, blow the team up and eventually build a winner around the pieces they have and the ones they get from trading him?
I understand where fans are coming from, I really do. The Kings have been terrible with DeMarcus and he often makes it harder to root for him than it should be considering his massive talent level. And if the team isn't winning with him then maybe it will win by trading him. After all, it can't get worse, right? I'd argue that it can. And it will.
I'm frustrated with DeMarcus Cousins. But really I'm at the point of saying enough is enough with the Sacramento Kings.
kupman
Starter
In the 4 years before him we were a bad team.
However, in the 6 years since he has been here we are still a bad team.
...and now we are back into the same loop.
My view - is it DMC or the organization who is at fault? The answer is probably yes.
As may be. But if the team was bad before he got here, and it has continued to be bad since he got here, I don't think it's reasonable to conclude that he is disproportionately responsible for us being bad. Which, to me, then begs the real questions: what is the appropriate degree of culpability that Cousins has in us being bad? And is the backlash being directed at him from some corners proportional to that degree?
Because the discrepancy and/or perceived discrepancy between how much of the losing you ("royal" you) think that Cousins is at fault for, and how much of the losing you think that Cousins is blamed for appears to account for much of the cognitive dissonance that exists amongst Kings Fans.
Because the discrepancy and/or perceived discrepancy between how much of the losing you ("royal" you) think that Cousins is at fault for, and how much of the losing you think that Cousins is blamed for appears to account for much of the cognitive dissonance that exists amongst Kings Fans.
Demarcus is going to be long gone before any of that happens.
Hoovtrain
All-Star
In this particular instance it's a combo of a few things....but in general the Sacramento Kings are just a BAD organization plain and simple. Minus that nice little run they had when Petrie captured lightning in a bottle and the Maloofs were flush with cash, this is an inept organization on par with the likes of the Clevland Browns of the sports world.
Look in my post above (#5). There's a link to a pretty good story about the whole Sprewell/Carlesimo incident.
twslam07
All-Star
Then I hope it would be his decision and not ours. Otherwise, we can add another dumb FO move to the list...
bajaden
Hall of Famer
If you think about it carefully, you just made an argument for, and against Cousins at the same time. One could say, that if he's so great, why hasn't he made a bigger difference. I'm not saying that, just playing devils advocate.
One could also say that the counter to that second argument is that, given who he's had to play with, Cousins has made this team as good as any other player in the league possibly could have done.
If all other things had remained stable, then you might have an argument. BUT with the total and complete chaos surround him, it's a false argument. There is NO great player in this league, past or present, that has had to put up with and try and survive through as much turmoil as Demarcus Cousins ... none.
Very perplexed at the "if Cuz is so great why are we so bad line". Completely ignores the teammates, head coaches and organization. But to each his own I guess. Looking at the above post and referencing Chris Mullin. Chris Mullin, head coach of the St John Red Storm, went 7-24 this year including 1-17 in conference play. You know, we could have had THAT guy as our head coach. So please no one say that it couldn't get worse because it always can get worse.
King Baller
All-Star
Wow, I had missed the link to the story. It does resonate to the current situation on the Kings. Whoever insisted Karl be retained to the bitter end may what to read this story and rethink that:
Here is the link again originally posted by VF21--> http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-b...ation-latrell-sprewell-15-195831032--nba.html
kupman
Starter
He may be a significant part of the total and complete chaos. The Kings were a mess before DMC to be sure. However, it can also be said that the DMC issues and concerns were well documented before he was drafted by us. It is the reason he fell to #5 despite having the most talent of any player in the draft that year.
....so round and round we all go (and I am beyond dizzy and nauseous.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
No, it's a legit argument. I didn't say it wasn't complicated, and somehow you missed my point. But its not important enough for me to explain. To be honest, I'm tired of talking about Cousins and Karl.
Okay, so suppose all other personnel changes remained exactly the same, who do you think that we could have drafted with the fifth pick in the 2010 NBA Draft, that we would be better than we are right now?
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I don't think the discussion was whether we should have drafted someone else. It was whether Cousins should have made a bigger impact on the team. Example: Team A, over a five year period wins less than 29 games a season. Add Cousins and team B over a period of 5 years wins less than 29 games. Yet, Cousins is touted as one of the top players in the league, maybe top five. Now the answer isn't a simple one and I think everyone knows that. However, I do think it's a legit argument. It's those damm details that muddy everything up.
I ask again if you can name even one great player that has had to put up with and try and survive through as much chaos as Demarcus Cousins AND stayed loyal to the fans and the franchise that hired him. Yes, DMC has flaws but most of those flaws involve his heart and passion for the game. He does not go out there with the mindset that he's going to fight with the officials, scowl and get angry when things do not go right. He goes out there wanting to win, and he does so despite more crap than anyone should have to put up with.
I do not condone his pouting, his anger, his frustration but I do understand it. He does need to get a handle on it and with a competent coach at the helm I fully believe he can do so.
All I've ever asked is that people who are always pointing at his faults at least acknowledge that there is some basis in fact for them.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Actually, Napier does say that Cousins is holding the team back, and he comes to that conclusion from talking to the players and ex-players that play with him. I know that the old excuse - "Napier doesn't like Cousins" - seems to be offered as the reason behind Napier's opinion. But has anyone considered why Napier doesn't like Cousins? Maybe it's because of all those comments by players who say that Cousins is a damper on the team and he just wears 'em down.
Peter_Gibbons
Starter
I will need to see Cousins have at least 1 full season with a respectable and capable coach first. Respectable means someone who all the players respect and is willing to play hard for and capable means someone who puts each player in roles that exploits their strengths and preaches defense. If Cousins still explodes negatively and we are still losing the way that we are losing now, then I think most people would realize what the answer is.
Section 101
All-Star
09/10 - 25 wins Rookie Evans
10/11 - 24 wins Rookie Cuz
11/12 - 22 wins Rookie Jimmer
12/13 - 28 wins Rookie Robinson
13/14 - 28 wins Rookie McLemore
14/15 - 29 wins Rookie Stauskus
How do you get better when you don't add better talent? Traded IT for nothing, traded Evans basically for Rudy. Everyone else is basically traded/signed for even or got worse.
How would this team look if we drafted Lillard instead of Robinson?
I have no doubt that Cousins is an exhausting dude to be around. DeMarcus isn't an off the court problem and I really think his charity work is done out of the goodness of his heart and desire to give back rather than for his image but nothing he does off the court changes that it's probably miserable playing with him. Growing up my sister was like that with board games. I love her to death and she's a fantastic person but get out Trivial Pursuit or chess or Risk etc and this weird hyper competitive streak came out. She was also both a poor winner and a poor loser to the extent that I didn't enjoy playing games with her at all after a while.
I'm sure Boogie wears on his teammates and the people around the team. You can see it in their body language when he starts to blow up - a shared expression of "here we go again." And I'm guessing at this point Napear and Cousins don't speak to each other unless forced to.
I could trot out the fact that people hated playing with Kobe Bryant too because he was distant, seemingly angry, and consumed with winning to the point that he sucked the fun out of playing for some of his teammates too. But that's a cop out. Bryant may not make things fun for his teammates but he's also not constantly taking plays off arguing calls. I don't excuse Boogie's behavior. He's been put through the wringer with terrible ownership, terrible coaches, a revolving door of teammates and teams not talented enough to escape the lottery but that and the notion that "he just wants to win" doesn't excuse his lack of composure. I'm as tired of the act as any Kings fan.
But Grant is just flat out wrong about Cousins holding the team back. If that were true wouldn't they all play much freer and better without him on the court?
Not only does the team absolutely tank whenever Cousins isn't on the floor but the team defense is worse statistically. The team offense is worse statistically.
In the 10 games Rudy Gay played this season without Cousins:
His FG% was 39.9% which is more than 7% lower than his season average
His 3P% was 24.8% which is more than 10 % lower than his season average
and the team only won 2 of those 10 games
I could go down the line and look at player stats and I can't find any that show guys who play better when Cousins misses games. Sure doesn't sound like Cousins is holding the team back to me. Guys may not always like playing with him and I understand that but the reality is that he doesn't hold the Kings back. He lifts them up. At least in terms of on court production.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Look, we probably agree more than we disagree. The only difference between you and I, is that your still trying to find a way to excuse his behavior, and I refuse to do so anymore. He's not 20 years old anymore, he's 25. As for finding another great player that put up with as much crap as Cousins, it's beside the point. I never use another persons past behavior as a reason, or an excuse for a player like Cousins behavior. That's what politicians do. The excuse what they do by saying well, the other party did it. Wrong is wrong! Period. As a side note, Wilt Chamberlain had a very checkered career and was traded several times due to his behavior. He finally matured, got in touch with reality and became a legendary player. Cousins may well do the same. Lets hope he does it with us. As for playing with sub par players, the night Wilt scored 100 points, I defy anyone to name one other player off that team other then Al Attles. That's why he scored a 1oo points.
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