bajaden
Hall of Famer
Once again, you've missed my entire point!
At what point is enough enough? (split)
- Thread starter Kingster
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Once again, you've missed my entire point!
No, the difference is that you think I'm making excuses and I think you're being blind to all the factors contributing to the problem. Period.
The Kings were a terrible team before Cousins arrived.
Cousins has become a top 10 or maybe top 5 player in the NBA
The Kings are still a terrible team.
The obvious conclusion to be made there is that Cousins doesn't negatively impact the team but also doesn't uplift them in any way either, something we'd expect from one of the best players in the NBA.
But there are zero players still on the team from before Cousins entered the NBA.
Unless we count a half season of Casspi, Cousins is the ONLY player left from the Kings team his rookie year (2010-2011)
He's the only player left from the 2011-2012 Kings team
He's the only player left from the 2012-2013 Kings team
He, Ben McLemore, Rudy Gay and Quincy Acy are the only players left from the 2013-2014 team and Acy left after that season
We can look and say that the Kings have been terrible for all of Cousins' six seasons in the league and that he's been the only constant. And while that's true, it's an incredibly lazy argument.
Probably the best measure of how much of a difference Cousins makes is how the team plays without him. And there we see another pattern. If I have to I can look up the exact stats but for years the Kings have been far, far worse with Cousins out of the lineup than they have been with him on the floor. Our previous GM flat out said the team was "Philadelphia bad" without Cousins. In his mind that was an indictment of Mike Malone's coaching but to me that's an indictment of the rosters that have been assembled over the last six years.
When the roster gets turned over at the rate it has, draft picks are busts over and over, free agency doesn't bring help, the few quality players allowed to leave for nothing and year after year the record is so terrible without DeMarcus then maybe it's not DeMarcus that's failing to make this team better.
Big Cuz 15
All-Star
at least the maloofs had an excuse... they were broke. whats the excuse for the current regime?
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Since I've acknowledged all those factors, I don't think I'm being blind to them. Your point is, if I understand you correctly, is that those factors are an excuse for his behavior. My point has been, that there is no excuse for his behavior. Now if your not trying to use them as an excuse, then why are you still bringing them to the discussion. Those factors are the reason for his anger and frustration. I get that. But they are not an excuse for his behavior, and that's the only point I'm trying to make.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
complete and total incompetence? no vision for a future? thinking only in the present?
"Well the woodwind instruments were not in unison with the brass. Meanwhile the conductor... Eh... Umm.... Ah... This is your teeeeem!"
Nitpick: how can he have been traded several times, when he only played for three teams, and one of them drafted him?
Well, to be fair, this board has maybe a half dozen active posters who were alive when that game happened.
Are you willing to stipulate that, while some Kings Fans acknowledge that Cousins' circumstances are not an "excuse" for his behavior, at the same time, Kings Fans do not all agree that his behavior has (or should have) exceeded our tolerance level?
The reason why I ask is because, whenever people talk about "making excuses" for Cousins' behavior, I feel like there is this subtext within those comments that involve an additional demand to concede that the behavior is therefore unacceptable.
I'd like Cousins to give up his war with the officials. I'd like him to play to the whistle. I'd like him to be excited when his teammates make a big play. I want to see him get back on D each time.
The problem is that even if all those things happened this year and nothing else was changed, the Kings would still be out of the playoff picture. So it's hard for me to focus on Cousins drawbacks when there's such a clear case of underlying problem that exists outside of Cuz.
The problem is that even if all those things happened this year and nothing else was changed, the Kings would still be out of the playoff picture. So it's hard for me to focus on Cousins drawbacks when there's such a clear case of underlying problem that exists outside of Cuz.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Wilt Chamberlain was already a legendary player long before he was traded.
Wrt not winning without Cousins:
That's what happens when you have a player with such a high usage though. That and the fact that we don't have someone who can step up to take over games. Take Cousins out and your entire offense that you normally run is gone. Look at the free throws he takes and FGs he attempts a game. Despite Rondo's assists we are still very much an iso team in the half court. The ball rarely gets swung around to an open man; offense comes more from Rondo driving and dishing. The Spurs barely miss a beat when their stars are out because the offense still runs the same way and shots come from the same areas. Not so for us when Cousins is out and guys are expected to play completely differently.
My issue with fans who have given the "until we surround him with ..." argument is that I very much doubt you can be objective about it. This year's team arguably looks good on paper. Karl on paper was a respectable coach and Cousins has been putting up monster stats. What defines surrounding him with complementary players and coaches? The only objective measure is winning. And that's like saying .. "I'll only give up on Cousins if we surround him with a winning team and the team doesn't win", which is of course a contradiction. And if we aren't winning, people will just say that we've once again failed to surround DMC with such and such. Someone else mentioned having a coach that the players all respect and play hard for. So by that measure David Blatt isn't good enough and wasn't good enough for the Cavs - yet they were able to get to the finals, demonstrating what a true HOF player does for a team.
So if I throw a temper tantrum the only thing that matters to you is that I threw the tantrum and not what led up to it? Fine. Behavior has consequences, which is what you're saying (I think) but there are also REASONS (not excuses) for behavior that should also be taken into consideration if you're going to view the entire picture and not just zero in on one particular part.
You and I could continue this forever and clearly not ever see it from the other person's point of view. I see you as being very rigid and unwilling to consider reasons, and I guess you probably view me as being too soft-hearted.
Have a good evening, Dennis. We'll just have to agree that we vehemently disagree in this regard.
In passing, I did put a
at the bottom of my previous post to indicate I was not trying to be confrontational, etc. I guess you missed that.
whozit
Starter
How about it simply gives an explanation for his behavior but does not excuse said behavior? Understanding rather than condoning.
CurseOfTheSalmons
Starter
Yes.
Demarcus is routinely in the top 5 in technical fouls, even when Malone was coaching.
K
KingMilz
Guest
But the relationship he had with Malone was beyond magically they were on there way to being a dynasty
King Baller
All-Star
Paul Arizin, Tom Meschery, GuyRodgers, Al Attles, York Larese, Ed Conlin, Joe Ruklick and Ted Luckenbill.
Box Score
http://www.nba.com/sixers/news/wilt_boxscore.html
Hoovtrain
All-Star
They own the Sacramento Kings
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Actually, Boogie started off Malone's lone season almost technical free despite some very shaky reffing (I still am not entirely sure they were not intentionally trying to stop him from becoming an All Star). The technicals and giving up on the season didn't come until PDA/Vivek canned Malone and blew everything up.
And BTW, who the hell CARES about having a "saint on the court". What the hell is this? Knitting class?
The appropriate question would be would he be better in a stable winning situation, and the answer is unequivocally, YES
K
KingMilz
Guest
If the refs are against him than it would be better to get rid of him, since they were intentionally trying to stop his sub 30 win greatness that's not a good thing.
Nope, and to my knowledge no one is saying that.
Nitpick: He does do that quite a bit.
True. From the bench. I should clarify that he is too often (in my tastes) still barking at a ref while his mate makes a good play when he's on the court. On the bench, he is clapping for his guys. It really rolls into the playing to the whistle bit.
I'm not saying being a saint matters on the court. I see people trying to rationalize his behavior peppered in this thread. Bad coaches. Bad organization. Bad teammates. Blah blah blah. People delude themselves into believing if a HOF coach was guiding Cousins, he would keep his mouth shut, but the truth is he wouldn't and never will.
He's among the league leaders in fouls drawn and free throws, but his constant moaning to officials is due to lack of calls.
He gets ejected. Oh well. The game was over anyways.
He gets suspended. Oh well. The season was already over.
G_M
Starter
He's leading the league in tecnicals for the 4th year. Not all technical are created equally. Hard foul T I get. Bitching at the ref T after a perceived foul, harder to understand after 6 years in the league.
People seem to conflate whiney petulance with toughness...
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