Artest's Value

[Kingster]

I've read a ton of comments regarding Artest's value and how we shouldn't "give" him away. But what is Artest's value? Is he a top 20 player in the league? 30-50? 80 - 100? And you can't separate his character issue risks from his value because no GM in the league is going to do that. Without the risks, problems and headaches, many said that Artest was a top 20 player in the league. So what is his value after you factor the character intangibles into the equation? Personally, I'd say he's in the 80-100 range.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Well that IS the question in't it? Based on pure on court contribution Ron is probably a top 20 guy, but since DEFENSE is the real key to becoming a true contender and given the actual rareity of truely strong defenders in the NBA Ron's on court value is enhanced.
BUT
Ron's lenthy resume as the leages #1 nut job since Denis Rodman his true trade value is deminished greatly and the only teams that will touch him wiht a 10 foot pole are teams on the cusp of becomeing true contenders who's current roster is soft on D. Moreover any team who seriously wnat to make a title run had better ALSO be prepaired to do it WITH OUT Ron givne his off court shenanagians. So who does that leave? In the East you have Miami (Boston if they had any chips left) and maybe a delusional Zeeke in NY over estimating his roster and underestimating his competition. Were it not for the brawl Detroit might make the list as well but I just do not see the fans in Motor City tollerating the deal.

In the West the one team that really could use Ron and has the chips is Dallas but there is no indication that they have any inclination to deal for him. Denver might be an idea but again there is no indication that they WANT him. Personally I think the Jazz is Rons best hope to save his reputation but the odds of Jerry Sloan killing Ron before Ron wised up is prety high. Laker fans both on the street and in the news room like the idea of a LA trade delusionally assuming the Lakers are that close to contending. Personally I would not mind seeing Ron go to LA as I think he could send the Koblet over the edge and put the team in a tail spin that might take 5 seasons to recover from.

BOTTOM LINE: Ron's tallent exceeds his pay and is a bargain for a team who can absorb the risk. If GP can get enders/picks or YOUNG prospects (any combination of the above please) at this stage you just have to let him go. He is not going to take this team anywhere, and by the team the team is ready to contend again his contract will be up. His potential influence on young players is too high a risk for a team in rebuild mode. I don;t expect any Artest deal to bring back much but ironically IF the right team can land him and IF Ron can keep his head they look mighty smart in the deal. Ron has the same value as Duesneburg Racer in parts. To the right guy it can be worth a lot but don't expcet to see that value on the table when you sell it.

 

[PurpleHaze]

His NBA player value is a complicated question, just like Ron Artest as a person. One thing for sure. He's by far the best defensive asset on the Kings, plus he exhibits some leadership on the court that's sorely lacking on this team. Probably second on the Kings as far as natural defensive mind-set is Francisco Garcia or Justin Williams. Several teams are obviously interested in obtaining Artest and Petrie is not likely to dump him for peanuts - unless forced too by circumstances.

 

[GoGoGadget]

BUT

The Celt has learned well.


It's nearly impossible to ignore a big "but."

 

[coolhandluke]

It's nearly impossible to ignore a big "butt."

I agree.

 

[Bricklayer]

A thing's value is always what someone is willing to give you for it. You can arbitrarily assign any value you want to anything -- you could for instance insist that your 1988 Yugo is for sale for $50,000. Does not mean that you could get $50,000. We could for instance say that we are willing to part with KT...but only for Tim Duncan. That does NOT mean that we will get Tim Duncan, nor does it mean that that is actually KTs value. That is simply our delusion.

There is a game to be played whereby you wait for better/the best offer(s) to come in, then finally pull the trigger, rather than jumping on the first deal. But it is up to you to finally take that best offer in the end, which is the actual value of the asset. Because if you do not take ANY offer the value of said asset is something else entirely: its zero.

 

[Rockmeister]

It's nearly impossible to ignore a big "but."

That was funny.

 

[Superman]

I said it in another thread:

I don't think we should move Artest unless we can package Kenny Thomas with him or we get equal talent level or a young player for him, like Lamar Odom or David Lee.

If Miami wants him, and we can include a third team, we can move both KT and Ron and get back expiring contracts and a pick or two. But Miami has to really want Ron. And I don't want Haslem. Give him to the third team. I want Jason Williams, Michael Doleac, and others with expiring contracts.

3 team trade: Miami, Sacramento, and Indiana
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4188758

 

[Bricklayer]

I said it in another thread:

I don't think we should move Artest unless we can package Kenny Thomas with him or we get equal talent level or a young player for him, like Lamar Odom or David Lee.

If Miami wants him, and we can include a third team, we can move both KT and Ron and get back expiring contracts and a pick or two. But Miami has to really want Ron. And I don't want Haslem. Give him to the third team. I want Jason Williams, Michael Doleac, and others with expiring contracts.

Ron Artest is a net NEGATIVE value to this team next year in a rebuilding year.

Option #1: Ron keeps it together + plays well
-- we win more games
-- we get a worse draft pick
-- as a huge minute player, Ron leaves few minutes for the kids behind him

Option #2: Ron doesn't keep it together, flips out, has incidents, whatever
-- we win the same or fewer games than we would wihtout him
-- he embarrasses the franchise
-- he distracts the team and makes Theus's rookie tenure difficult
-- he destroys any shred of trade value


Either way, he's a negative given our situation. Either he blows up and just piles onto our spiraling, or he does not blow up and denies us young talent and development time for our young players. Ron is the sort of guy you MIGHT want on the team 2-3 years from now when you were coming out of the rebuild. I say "might", because Ron is a nut, and actually you might not ever want a nut on the team, certainly not in a delicate phase. But as of right now, this year, in a rebuilding situation? Even if he keeps it together and plays well he hurts us. And if he doesn't...

 

[Kingzrool]

Of course the value is what you are able to get.

Having said that, Ron is one of the top 3 defensive players in the league, arguably #1. And that has a lot of value. Throw in that there is a balance to the risk in that he is seriously underpaid and he can be a huge assett to the right team. I am not on board with the thinking that Ron has further diminished his "value" as a King. He may have not increased it, but I do not count last years mishaps as "crashing and burning". He is still an assett, and I hope that GP does not let him go for cheap.

I think that I would have a hard time not supporting any trade that involved KT, unless Kings got just as bad of a contract in return.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I said it in another thread:

I don't think we should move Artest unless we can package Kenny Thomas with him or we get equal talent level or a young player for him, like Lamar Odom or David Lee.

If Miami wants him, and we can include a third team, we can move both KT and Ron and get back expiring contracts and a pick or two. But Miami has to really want Ron. And I don't want Haslem. Give him to the third team. I want Jason Williams, Michael Doleac, and others with expiring contracts.

3 team trade: Miami, Sacramento, and Indiana
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=4188758

That's an interesting 3-team deal, and one I haven't seen before. I like the Haslem to Indy angle. But we still don't get either youth or picks, which I still think we should get, along with the expirings.

 

[Bricklayer]

That's an interesting 3-team deal, and one I haven't seen before. I like the Haslem to Indy angle. But we still don't get either youth or picks, which I still think we should get, along with the expirings.

People are rather too obsessed wiht getting rid of KT, nice thought though that be.

Youth/picks are the absolute starting price, or should be, for any deal. Even enders, defeinitely what we should be looking for, are less valuable so long as we do not take back a long term deal. Ron might even be an ender himself -- he could well opt oout and head for greener pastures this summer. So we're rebuilding, that means youth + picks. The more the merrier. And i do NOT want to see Jeff Foster show up in town wiht us haivng just drafted a rookie center who will be lucky to get 20 min/gm of PT as it is.

 

[Superman]

People are rather too obsessed wiht getting rid of KT, nice thought though that be.

Youth/picks are the absolute starting price, or should be, for any deal. Even enders, defeinitely what we should be looking for, are less valuable so long as we do not take back a long term deal. Ron might even be an ender himself -- he could well opt oout and head for greener pastures this summer. So we're rebuilding, that means youth + picks. The more the merrier. And i do NOT want to see Jeff Foster show up in town wiht us haivng just drafted a rookie center who will be lucky to get 20 min/gm of PT as it is.

I agree regarding picks and such, but not regarding Kenny Thomas. I think that he's dead weight, costing the team in dollars and chemistry, and there's no use for him here. If buying him out gave us cap room, I'd be all for it. As it doesn't, I want him gone, and if we're going to move Ron, we might as well make it a blockbuster-mini and get KT outta here with him.

Jeff Foster coming here would be a move that gets us further under the cap, as his contract comes off the books next summer. He would theoretically be ahead of Hawes on the depth chart, but this whole scenario is theoretical. This is a move I would pursue if I were running things, and it would be the official "We're Rebuilding Now" move for us. Next would be moving SAR and Bibby, I would instruct Theus to stick Foster at the end of the bench until I could move him. Same with Doleac. It's not a talent trade. It's a cap space trade.

And I guess you could theoretically subtract Doleac or Foster from the deal, maybe both, and turn them into lottery-protected picks for three years, if that would be more conducive to a youth-laden team. But the whole idea of putting that deal together was to get KFT outta here, appease Miami with Artest and a shooter, give Indiana a young player and a PF, and get us some cap space. If you want to trade a bit of cap space for a pick or two, that would probably work, too.

Edit: Foster has a player option after this season; I thought it was a team option, so maybe it doesn't work out too well. Subtract Foster and add a second-rounder.

 

[Superman]

Ron Artest is a net NEGATIVE value to this team next year in a rebuilding year.

Option #1: Ron keeps it together + plays well
-- we win more games
-- we get a worse draft pick
-- as a huge minute player, Ron leaves few minutes for the kids behind him

Option #2: Ron doesn't keep it together, flips out, has incidents, whatever
-- we win the same or fewer games than we would wihtout him
-- he embarrasses the franchise
-- he distracts the team and makes Theus's rookie tenure difficult
-- he destroys any shred of trade value


Either way, he's a negative given our situation. Either he blows up and just piles onto our spiraling, or he does not blow up and denies us young talent and development time for our young players. Ron is the sort of guy you MIGHT want on the team 2-3 years from now when you were coming out of the rebuild. I say "might", because Ron is a nut, and actually you might not ever want a nut on the team, certainly not in a delicate phase. But as of right now, this year, in a rebuilding situation? Even if he keeps it together and plays well he hurts us. And if he doesn't...

Absolutely. I'm not saying I don't want to trade him, I'm saying I don't want to trade just him. I am completely obsessed with moving Kenny Thomas, as you mentioned, and since it's going to be easier to package him with Artest than with Bibby or Miller this season (he makes considerably less than both of them, and he's a better player), we should try to involve KT in any trade talks that include Ron, before he turns into RonRon.

 

[Arena Skeptic]

Some teams would take him

I really think Golden State would take him, but Petrie would have to accept a song for him.

I think he'd fit in great in Boston, but Boston would only take him if Petrie was willing to take little in return.

San Antonio: Song.

Phoenix: Song.

Notice a pattern here?

The problem is all the other stuff. No reason to review here, we've all seen the embarrassing timelines, all the way from the day he was drafted (A job at a stereo store... Good Idea!) to domestic abuse, and all sickening points in-between.

I'm old-school. I think a tiger can't change his stripes. You know, when Michael Vick comes out of jail, he'll claim he was set up or whatever. Similarly, if you listen to Artest here, he always has a reason. There's always some sort of justification for his actions.

Teams know this. You know, if he goes after a couple more fans in the stands, he'll have a rationalization for it. Won't he? And don't you suspect we haven't seen the last of behavior none of us would ever do?

By the way, I don't think Artest is the #1 defender in the league. Not as long as there are KGs and Yaos and Duncans around. I think he's a very good defender, but sometimes we put our blinders on and don't quite see the truth. The truth is: Very good defender, and the threes that he takes may wipe out his ability to defend. Once the ball gets to him, it's usually going up. I do not share the opinion that he's a top 20 talent. I think he's probably in the top 10 at his position, which ain't bad.

I think that may be the problem... Bibby and Artest are both top 10 talents, and Martin is certainly pretty good (and there's a negative for the Kings coming up on that one in that he'll need a new contract pretty soon...), and really, no one will pick up the contracts of Miller/KT/SAR if Petrie insists on it as a condition to get Artest. So a lot of this is how Petrie deals with it.

If it was me, I'd offer Artest only, and see what the best offer is that works with the cap rules, and possibly take it. I think it's extremely likely that's pretty much what Petrie has already done, so if GS offered Pietrus in a sign-and-trade, and that was the best offer, I'd turn it down and look forward to 2008.

I am disappointed so far at the incredible lack of progress this summer. It's kind of sad. Artest or Bibby had to go, and they didn't (probably because no one wants those contracts). I don't like the pick. I don't like the PG they picked up. I don't like Moore.

It has been one negative after another for me, and frankly, I am kind of sad about it. I just don't consider a single thing they did to be actual progress.

There's still time. Lakers haven't made progress either. Few teams have. (Golden State and Boston sure have, though...)

Here's hoping, but the next move is going to have to be darned good to reverse what I've seen this summer.

 

[dude12]

Personally, I'd say he's in the 80-100 range.

So what your saying is that on every other team, there are about 3 players better than him according to your criteria. I can't agree with this. I look at it this way. He can be a difference maker. Most guys in the NBA are not difference makers but role players.

 

[Bricklayer]

So what your saying is that on every other team, there are about 3 players better than him according to your criteria. I can't agree with this. I look at it this way. He can be a difference maker. Most guys in the NBA are not difference makers but role players.

Think his talent is closer to 20-30 range. But his value could well be 80-100. Hard to guage. for some teams his value is closer to 500-1000 --- they simply want no part of him. For others, they might risk it, but only at a discount. In any case, despite the talent if you offered the 30 NBA Gms their choice of either Ron or Gerald Wallace, 30 of 30 take Gerald. Ron or Richard Jefferson? 30 of 30 take Jefferson. Ron or Shane Battier? Now you might be getting into the range where some of the risk takers take Ron, but be willing to bet the majority still prefer Battier as the classy guy they can count on. Etc.

 

[fnordius]

I think there's one key statement to be made about Ron's trade value.

It's lower than the front office thinks.

 

[Kingster]

So what your saying is that on every other team, there are about 3 players better than him according to your criteria. I can't agree with this. I look at it this way. He can be a difference maker. Most guys in the NBA are not difference makers but role players.

I'm saying that in theory - imagine a sane Artest - he is a top 20 player based on his talent. But because of his character flaws/insanity - he has effectively depreciated his value around the league to to the 80-100 range. So in a trade that's the kind of value we get in return for Artest: the 80-100 talent level slot And that assumes the player(s) we get for Artest do not have character issues. Look, if Artest's value was really in the top 20 around the league, don't you think Petrie would have made a deal by now? How difficult is it to typically trade a top-20 talent with a moderate salary? Not very. Right now, I think this inaction by Petrie is caused from him thinking that Artest's value should be depreciated by a little, and the rest of the league thinking it should be depreciated by a LOT.

 

[Entity]

Ron value hmmm. Personally I think Ron is more valuable to us NOW as a member of the Kings than as trade bait. I would also like to touch on something. Alot of times i see ppl saying Ron shouldn't be in a rebuild because it takes time away from the kids and all that. Mind you Ron is barely 2 years older than Cisco so if you go with Cisco now does that mean in 2 years (when he is the same age as Ron now) that he should be gone to let some other johnny come lately get "time". Now don't get me wrong I would love to see Cisco play more but, acting as if Ron is in the decline is ignorant. s Ron has about 3 more Prime season's left then me may start to decline. So again his value would be questioned. Is 3 years of a more talented player better than 5 years of a less talented player.

 

[Superman]

Ron value hmmm. Personally I think Ron is more valuable to us NOW as a member of the Kings than as trade bait. I would also like to touch on something. Alot of times i see ppl saying Ron shouldn't be in a rebuild because it takes time away from the kids and all that. Mind you Ron is barely 2 years older than Cisco so if you go with Cisco now does that mean in 2 years (when he is the same age as Ron now) that he should be gone to let some other johnny come lately get "time". Now don't get me wrong I would love to see Cisco play more but, acting as if Ron is in the decline is ignorant. s Ron has about 3 more Prime season's left then me may start to decline. So again his value would be questioned. Is 3 years of a more talented player better than 5 years of a less talented player.

Problem is that Ron's three years can be cut short with three minutes of an insane anti-life rant or something that causes the entire basketball world to wonder if he going to show up at the next game or tour with Kanye West.

He is too unpredictable to hang your hat on him as a major piece of your team. Talent-wise, I'd want him to stay around. He plays hard, appears to care about winning, and he has a passion for defense. But he's a nut. Plain and simple. And if you can get a reasonable offer for a nut, perhaps from a team so close that they're willing to take a chance on him, then you give him up. You have to. You never know what tomorrow may bring with Ron Artest.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Alot of times i see ppl saying Ron shouldn't be in a rebuild because it takes time away from the kids and all that. Mind you Ron is barely 2 years older than Cisco so if you go with Cisco now does that mean in 2 years (when he is the same age as Ron now) that he should be gone to let some other johnny come lately get "time".

Not quite the right logic here. The idea is that we rebuild now, and that when Cisco is at his prime (as well as Martin, Hawes, next years draft picks, etc), we'll be contending--or close to it--thus we keep them around. No reason to get rid of players in their prime. As long as we're not still rebuilding in two years.

The question with Ron has more to do with uncertainty around his contract, and with him in general. Is he going to walk for nothing? Perhaps. Will he resign for a reasonable deal? Maybe (at best). Would that even be a good thing? Probably not, but up for debate, I guess. Still, it's not like the factors in favor of keeping him around are overwhelming and or an easy yes.

 

[AyeCarly]

Traits that add to one's value as a basketball player, and what grade Ron should get in each


Defensive Ability A
Rebounding Ability A-
Shooting Ability B
Basketball IQ B- (shot selection, court awareness, teamwork)
Desire B


Regarding him being a "nut",

What's nuttier, allowing the leader of your team convicted of a DUI to not be punished.
(There were 16,885 alcohol-related fatalities in 2005 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.)

OR

Someone jumping in the stands and brawling, after being provoked by a fan throwing something at him (not to mention
being shoved in the throat by Ben Wallace after a supposed hard foul and after Wallace threw something at his head).
Then being suspended 73 games and losing 5 million in salary. BTW, after the foul and the shove to the throat he did
walk away.

If my point isn't clear, I'm not saying what Artest did was right, but what Musselman did IMO is worse.
And last that bad occurences in his past do not affect his value as a basketball player.

Dennis Rodman was 6'7" / 228 lbs yet avgd 13.0 rebounds per game over 14 seasons and won 5 championships.

He was a nut off off the court, but without him the Pistons and Bulls would not have won all 5 of those championships.

 

[VF21]

There is no validity in comparing Artest to Musselman. The "poor little misunderstood Artest" excuse was used up a long time ago. It's not just about the brawl.

Ron Artest is a loose cannon. He always will be a loose cannon. You can tell yourself he's not - and you can get back to admiring the emperor's marvelous wardrobe. It's about the same thing.

The fans in Indiana prayed he'd grown up and be different, too. But they at least recognized the potential for disaster...

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

 

[dude12]

Traits that add to one's value as a basketball player, and what grade Ron should get in each


Defensive Ability A
Rebounding Ability A-
Shooting Ability B
Basketball IQ B- (shot selection, court awareness, teamwork)
Desire B


Regarding him being a "nut",

What's nuttier, allowing the leader of your team convicted of a DUI to not be punished.
(There were 16,885 alcohol-related fatalities in 2005 – 39 percent of the total traffic fatalities for the year.)

OR

Someone jumping in the stands and brawling, after being provoked by a fan throwing something at him (not to mention
being shoved in the throat by Ben Wallace after a supposed hard foul and after Wallace threw something at his head).
Then being suspended 73 games and losing 5 million in salary. BTW, after the foul and the shove to the throat he did
walk away.

If my point isn't clear, I'm not saying what Artest did was right, but what Musselman did IMO is worse.
And last that bad occurences in his past do not affect his value as a basketball player.

Dennis Rodman was 6'7" / 228 lbs yet avgd 13.0 rebounds per game over 14 seasons and won 5 championships.

He was a nut off off the court, but without him the Pistons and Bulls would not have won all 5 of those championships.

I see you working here. I agree with alot of what you said. I might have graded a little differently on some of the traits. I might have knocked his rebounding down a tad and raised the desire to an A but I understand your points.

 

[DaMan]

To me Artest has the most value after Martin on this team, i definitely think he is a top 30 player in this league and kings should get a good offer if he is traded. But what always holds artest back is he's behavior.

 

[PurpleHaze]

There is no validity in comparing Artest to Musselman. The "poor little misunderstood Artest" excuse was used up a long time ago. It's not just about the brawl. Ron Artest is a loose cannon. He will always be a loose cannon.

Hmmm, it's not just about the brawl but the infamous - "Artest is a loose cannon... will always be a loose cannon." What exactly does that mean, since whatever it is, it's not as bad as the brawl?

Does being described as "loose cannon" automatically mean this under a microscope individual is destined to so horribly crash and burn that he'll take everyone and everything around him down in one giant 2007-08 inferno?

From my perspective, only a gambling NBA official fixing games appears to qualify hands down as a highly dangerous loose cannon, with the prospect of totally destroying the league as more cards fall out of the deck in the criminal probe.

 

[AyeCarly]

I see you working here. I agree with alot of what you said. I might have graded a little differently on some of the traits. I might have knocked his rebounding down a tad and raised the desire to an A but I understand your points.

I did think his desire to win was an A as well, until I remembered the retire/wannabe rapper tirades. When on the court, he does get an A for effort though.

As far as rebounding, you may be right, could be better, but he does use his big body to box out well, a la Sir Charles. And is pretty aggressive at it. He was third I think in boarding for Small Forwards to LeBron and Melo last year. He was third in alot of categories to them also. In other words I do think he is the 3rd best SF in the game, IMO.

Ron Artest is a loose cannon. He always will be a loose cannon. You can tell yourself he's not - and you can get back to admiring the emperor's marvelous wardrobe. It's about the same thing.

If that's admiring the emperor's new clothes, they must be pretty stylish.

 

[dude12]

In other words I do think he is the 3rd best SF in the game, IMO.

He's a real unique player because of his strength. I like watching the guy play. He plays hard. He gets into those modes on offense where he tries to do to much but he had a pretty good year last year. I wonder what Theus might be able to get out of the guy.

 

[VF21]

Hmmm, it's not just about the brawl but the infamous - "Artest is a loose cannon... will always be a loose cannon." What exactly does that mean, since whatever it is, it's not as bad as the brawl?

Does being described as "loose cannon" automatically mean this under a microscope individual is destined to so horribly crash and burn that he'll take everyone and everything around him down in one giant 2007-08 inferno?

From my perspective, only a gambling NBA official fixing games appears to qualify hands down as a highly dangerous loose cannon, with the prospect of totally destroying the league as more cards fall out of the deck in the criminal probe.

Ron Artest is not predictable. He's got good intentions a lot of times, but he simply doesn't possess good decision making tools. I love what Artest can do on the court; the problem is that there's always the chance he'll resort to NOT thinking and doing something that hurts my beloved Kings.

I'm not going to list all his missteps again. Everyone knows them. A loose cannon is something that cannot be controlled and MAY OR MAY NOT cause damage of indeterminable seriousness.

For me, the drama has to stop at some point and it has to become about the Kings again, and not about the "troubled" or "mercurial" small forward.

And my comment about the brawl was really pretty clear. It's not just about the brawl because the brawl isn't the only time Artest has done something beyond comprehension - something that caused his fans to slap themselves in the head and his agent to grab an industrial-size bottle of Prozac.

It's not about disliking Artest; it's about not wanting our future to depend on him when, at any time, there could be another episode. Will it be another domestic dispute? Will he decide to shuck the Kings in the middle of the season and go to work for the Peace Corps? Will he be in the wrong place at the wrong time and, simply because he's Ron Artest, end up in something that he cannot get out of?

I understand that you have faith in him and think he can even out his life and get away from the drama. I respectfully disagree.