Artest in Game 3:

[Wheeler03]

A fluke for Martin? Au contraire. He's been getting better and better all year. This career high wasn't a big leap; it was just another step up the ladder for this young man who is at the beginning of his career.

Why not give ALL THREE players credit for what they did? I'm quite sure Shareef is willing to share the spotlight. It's a shame some fans can't let all three of them receive the credit they're due without having to knock two of them down so Reef can be up just a little higher.

I did give credit to all three players. I didn't "knock" anyone down. Reef has shown throughout his career that those numbers are part of his game. Yes, he stepped it up. No, he can't score at a 60%+ clip, but it isn't folly or fluke that he scored 27 points the other night.

I gave everyone credit. I'm glad they did what they did and they left it on the court. I think Kevin COULD become a great player! I hold nothing out on him, but so far in his career it's an abnormality for that type of output. I want to see it again though!

You say something to me about mentioning it "might" be a fluke for two guys that have never scored 20+ PPG in a season - yet Brick says it as if it's fact for all three and you say nothing?

Come on.

 

[VF21]

Brick doesn't have a hidden agenda.

Considering this is only Kevin's second year in the league, and he didn't play hardly at all last year, I would think it could be argued that even someone with no knowledge of basketball whatsoever could assume he wouldn't have a 20+ PPG season behind him. (Although, to nitpick, he does have those kinds of seasons - and even led his division in the NCAA.)

Have you actually looked at Kevin's performances this year? He continues to beat his own career highs. That's pretty obviously a young player honing his skills and refining his game, getting better as time goes by. For someone in the league as short a time as he has been, it's pretty good. AND it's starting to parallel the kinds of numbers he put up in his collegiate career. He didn't accidentally fall into the job as a Sacramento King. He wasn't a second-round pick. Petrie selected him because he's good. It was always just a matter of whether or not his game would translate into success in the NBA. It's beginning to be pretty apparent that it will.

 

[Wheeler03]

Brick doesn't have a hidden agenda.

Considering this is only Kevin's second year in the league, and he didn't play hardly at all last year, I would think it could be argued that even someone with no knowledge of basketball whatsoever could assume he wouldn't have a 20+ PPG season behind him. (Although, to nitpick, he does have those kinds of seasons - and even led his division in the NCAA.)

Have you actually looked at Kevin's performances this year? He continues to beat his own career highs. That's pretty obviously a young player honing his skills and refining his game, getting better as time goes by. For someone in the league as short a time as he has been, it's pretty good. AND it's starting to parallel the kinds of numbers he put up in his collegiate career. He didn't accidentally fall into the job as a Sacramento King. He wasn't a second-round pick. Petrie selected him because he's good. It was always just a matter of whether or not his game would translate into success in the NBA. It's beginning to be pretty apparent that it will.

I can see that you seem to think I'm insulting Kevin or think he's not a good player. You couldn't be more incorrect.

I've been one person who thinks that perhaps it was a mistake to take away his starting role. (of course, at the beginning of the year, I'd have been the first one in line to lynch him) But since he started, I love Kevin Martin and what he brings. I loved that he hit 2 clutch free throws and I was biting my nails in fear like a nervous GQ model in the prison shower stalls.

All I said - and I can quote - is that I "may" grant that it was a fluke by Kevin and Bonzi. MAY being the key word. I wasn't even the one who thought it was a fluke.

The only thing I have against Kevin, bearing in mind it is his second year, is that he puts his head down. I rarely see him put it on the floor and make a pass. If he takes a dribble and penetrates, he's shooting. He's got to add passing to that to become a more complete player. I'm sure being a top dog scorer, he hasn't had to learn that skill as much as some other players - but once he has it ... man oh man.

As for Brick's hidden agenda - I think he does have one. I think he honestly will never have any respect for our PFs. Regardless of what they do or bring, I think he's not satisfied. So, that's my gut feeling on it. It may be right or wrong ... I don't know. But, you've got about as much proof of your ascertation as I do.

 

[Bricklayer]

God only knows that is my agenda all right. And really unreasonable too, since we all know how terrified the entire league is of our PF platoon. I mean its not just the confused fellows over at IHaveMyNoseJammedUpReef'sButt.com, its every team. Just can't stop talking about how Kenny Thomas is going to bite their PFs knees and Reef may outrebound their PG. Verily they are trembling in their boots.

I presented a very simple reason why that is NOT what you expect from Reef anymore. But I will expand. His 27pts is not only the second highest he scored all year long (his highest was vs. the bleeping Bobcats BTW). Its as many points as he scored at any point LAST year. Its as many points as he scored after January of the year before. Reef can still score. Put him on a terrible team with no other options, and I'm sure he can still get up around 18-20ppg leading his team to 20 wins. But its been 2 1/2 years since these sorts of things were at all regular. That's whole generations ago in basketball. In fact since we still regularly had the best record in basketball. Reef may play well again, he may not. Banking on a repeat of a once in 2 1/2 season event would be a tad foolish. The Spurs will adjust.

 

[Wheeler03]

Whatever you say Brick......but numbers do not lie. The bottom line is that Reef has sacrificed his offensive game for the good of the team. He could easily have scored 20+ per game if he took the catch and shoot approach. Though his numbers are down, he scored 13 points on 8 shots and has averaged 20 points on 14 shots for his career. Saying he could only do it for a poor team is flat out ignorant. But...at least you are staying positive. IMO Bonzi, Reef and Martin could all produce similar numbers as game 3 if there is good ball movement and a good distribution of shots. And if that happens we will win more than we lose. Now we need Artest to find 15 shots within that same offense and we will be stylin.

 

[Goo]

Brick, I alway through the only complaint you have about Reef is rebounding(agree). I am surprise you actually think he is not a good player any more.

 

[Bricklayer]

Brick, I alway through the only complaint you have about Reef is rebounding(agree). I am surprise you actually think he is not a good player any more.

Define "good" player.

Reef is most certainly a "good" player as I would define it. Now is Reef consistently a 27 and 9 against the defending world champs good player? No, not even close. Not even during his prime, which seems far distant anymore.

There were about 6-8 minutes in the second half/overtime when Reef played what might have been his best basketball in a LONG time. Years even. He attacked relentlessly and he attacked the glass too. But its not who he consistently is. Anymore than if Brad grits his teeth tommorow and goes for 20-10 that is who he is. These things are always bell curves. On Tuesday we got the tippity top far left side of the curve game. Top 1-2% Reef. Asking him to repeat, and this is just as critical -- asking him to repeat in such a way as it actually helps us again (as opposed to forcing the issue and stopping up the offense) -- is asking a bit much. And if he DOES get it going at all again, I fully expect the Spurs to have made the adjustment and come with doubles. Its what they do. Reef won't beat you with his passing. 15pts? Sure. Maybe. 20? Doubtful, but remotely possible if Brad basically benches himself for the entire secondhalf I suppose. 25+? Not likely against this team. You have to remember who we are playing. This isn't the Suns.

 

[VF21]

Whatever you say Brick......but numbers do not lie. The bottom line is that Reef has sacrificed his offensive game for the good of the team.

Did I miss something again?

He "sacrificed his offensive game for the good of the team"? Holy crap. That's about the most ridiculous thing you've posted.

IT isn't up to him to decide. He is a MEMBER of a TEAM. The Sacramento Kings. It is up to the coach to decide what role he will play on that team. You make it sound as though he had some right to be a "catch and shoot" player and to get HIS points regardless of what it did for the team.

It doesn't work that way. People at the level of SAR do not have the luxury of dictating to their coach and the rest of team how things will go. The game does not revolve around them. It's the other way around. They have to fill the niche they've been given.

Don't get me wrong or twist my words. I think SAR is stepping up and doing about as much as any player can given the circumstances but you're talking about something that doesn't exist and purporting it to be something noble, to be revered and admired. And I think that's hogwash.

It isn't player's game first, followed by team effort. And I sincerely hope it never will be...

 

[Goo]

You got me wrong, I am not saying Reef > *. I am only surprise by the way you descript Reef. I think he is still good, I have no problem you said this maybe the best game Reef have in 2 1/2 yrs because it may very well be true. But you also have to consider when is the last time Kings or Portland give Reef the pass to score? Reef understand his role with the Kings - ok he should rebound more - which is D up his man, rebound, shoot mid range when open. When is the last time Kings keep feeding him in the post like game 2?

 

[Bricklayer]

You got me wrong, I am not saying Reef > *. I am only surprise by the way you descript Reef. I think he is still good, I have no problem you said this maybe the best game Reef have in 2 1/2 yrs because it may very well be true. But you also have to consider when is the last time Kings or Portland give Reef the pass to score? Reef understand his role with the Kings - ok he should rebound more - which is D up his man, rebound, shoot mid range when open. When is the last time Kings keep feeding him in the post like game 2?

When is the last time he was that aggressive in the post? Portland and the Kings haven't been "keeping the man down" as a way to make sure they lose games. "The man" hasn't played with fire in his gut in a LONG time.

 

[bozzwell]

When is the last time he was that aggressive in the post? Portland and the Kings haven't been "keeping the man down" as a way to make sure they lose games. "The man" hasn't played with fire in his gut in a LONG time.

I agree with your assesment of Reef, but let's not lose the sight of the fact that Reef did step it up this once and it was in the most important game he ever played. I, for one, will always have the fond memories of Reef just because of this game and if he keeps up intensity (never mind the numbers) from Game 2 throughout the rest of the series I promise to purchase full years membership at IHaveMyNoseJammedUpReefsButt.com, too. .

Not because that would make Reef a superstud or my favorite player but because I am fed up with our guys losing focus and intensity in PO's like its summer league. More guys that bring it in POs the merrier. This year the book is pretty tin outside Reef, Bonzi and Martin.

 

[Wheeler03]

Did I miss something again?

He "sacrificed his offensive game for the good of the team"? Holy crap. That's about the most ridiculous thing you've posted.

Yet, in today's league, that's a huge thing. Don't dismiss it like it's the standard thing that players of Reef's caliber do. Reef is a good player - good enough to carry an ego. I've seen lesser players cause a lot of grief from doing just what you "expect" Reef to do.

He could have pulled a Kenny Thomas. He's certainly more talented and thusly, by all accounts, would have more "right" (if there is such a thing) to whine and *****.

 

[Wheeler03]

Define "good" player.

Reef is most certainly a "good" player as I would define it. Now is Reef consistently a 27 and 9 against the defending world champs good player? No, not even close. Not even during his prime, which seems far distant anymore.

I don't think anyone is insinuating that he's a 27/9 player in this league, much less against the defending world champs and top defensive team in the league.

What I think we are saying is that Reef will come through on most nights when given a decent number of shots. It's what people have been saying from the get-go. Give the guy 15-17 shots a night and he'll give you 20-25 points almost like clockwork.

 

[VF21]

Yet, in today's league, that's a huge thing. Don't dismiss it like it's the standard thing that players of Reef's caliber do. Reef is a good player - good enough to carry an ego. I've seen lesser players cause a lot of grief from doing just what you "expect" Reef to do.

He could have pulled a Kenny Thomas. He's certainly more talented and thusly, by all accounts, would have more "right" (if there is such a thing) to whine and *****.

Two wrongs would not make a right.

The Kenny Thomas attitude isn't one you should be holding up as something Reef might have done.

Sorry, but Shareef is TOO good to carry an attitude like what you describe. And he's obviously aware of what's important and what isn't. He's in the playoffs. He made it as part of a team. Luckily he doesn't seem to reflect the attitude some of his fans have.

Believe me, they're only putting up with Kenny Thomas as long as they have to. He'll be gone - just like the Tony Massenburg and other attitude problems before him. If SAR adopts that kind of outlook, it will be to his own detriment. I don't think he'll do it because I think he's actually a much better person than the player you're portraying.

 

[GoGoGadget]

Yet, in today's league, that's a huge thing. Don't dismiss it like it's the standard thing that players of Reef's caliber do. Reef is a good player - good enough to carry an ego. I've seen lesser players cause a lot of grief from doing just what you "expect" Reef to do.

He could have pulled a Kenny Thomas. He's certainly more talented and thusly, by all accounts, would have more "right" (if there is such a thing) to whine and *****.

Your argument is flawed.

There's a huge difference between suggesting that SAR should be praised for graciously accepting his new role with the team, and suggesting that he's "sacrficing his offensive game" to do so.

 

[GoGoGadget]

I don't think anyone is insinuating that he's a 27/9 player in this league, much less against the defending world champs and top defensive team in the league.

What I think we are saying is that Reef will come through on most nights when given a decent number of shots. It's what people have been saying from the get-go. Give the guy 15-17 shots a night and he'll give you 20-25 points almost like clockwork.

Maybe.

Once upon a time.

Your assertion that he would definitely put up big numbers if given the opportunity, however, is nothing more than speculation and assumes too many factors that you've got no way of verifying.

 

[PixelPusher]

Maybe.

Once upon a time.

Your assertion that he would definitely put up big numbers if given the opportunity, however, is nothing more than speculation and assumes too many factors that you've got no way of verifying.

Regardless of whatever SAR may or may not be capable of producing day in and day out during the regular season, what he did produce in this last playoff game (only his 2nd, btw) is what gets my attention (ahem...Brad?).

 

[Wheeler03]

Luckily he doesn't seem to reflect the attitude some of his fans have

I hope you're not directing that towards me.

I'm not advocating that Reef should have that attitude or should be unhappy about where he's at. I'm just saying that it's something to be remembered rather than ragged on.

Brick mentions that Reef hasn't put up these type of numbers since X date. Well, it's interesting that X date corresponds with nearly the last time he was asked to do it.

He's playing the role the team wants or needs.

The lower numbers are attributable to that rather than some declining set of skills. I mean, the guy is 29. He may have lost a little enthusiasm for the game with constant losing, but he's obviously got talent to put up numbers.

 

[GoGoGadget]

<- "Save us, Angel Parker!" - PixelPusher

(no, I didn't defect to the Spurs, I'm just trying out a little jinx experiment)

I'll praise this if it works, but...

Some things just aren't right.

 

[coolhandluke]

<- "Save us, Angel Parker!" - PixelPusher

(no, I didn't defect to the Spurs, I'm just trying out a little jinx experiment)

May I suggest Manu instead?

 

[VF21]

Some things just aren't right.

GoGoGadget: Hands down winner of the drastic understatement award.
















Good lord, Pixel. Have you lost your mind???????

 

[PixelPusher]

I'll praise this if it works, but...

Some things just aren't right.

This is all I've got left in my "avatar bag 'o tricks". After tonight, it'll be up to you.

 

[GoGoGadget]

This is all I've got left in my "avatar bag 'o tricks". After tonight, it'll be up to you.

Didn't you once have a Devil Finley?

 

[PixelPusher]

GoGoGadget: Hands down winner of the drastic understatement award.














Good lord, Pixel. Have you lost your mind???????

If Parker has a crappy night and ends up costing the Spurs the game at the end, then...


...uh,yeah it's still crazy. But crazy's all I've got left right now.

 

[PixelPusher]

Didn't you once have a Devil Finley?

Oh, yeah

I almost forgot about him. I'll save him for game 4 (if needed).

I'd love to use "Psycho Dirk",

but he doesn't have a damn thing to do with this series

 

[GoGoGadget]

Psycho Dirk still disturbs me.

Deeply.