Artest and Rebuilding

[sidney]

I love watching Artest, loved the trade last year, love his attitude, etc. We have about a month to turn this season around before it is more or less done. If we don't start winning and don't make a big change at the deadline, I believe that all that is negative about Artest will start to appear. Time bomb is ticking. The guy hates losing as much as anyone and he won't gracefully accepting a losing season. Already been some grumbling. He also won't be a good guy to keep around while rebuilding (and losing).

His value won't be higher than it is right now and as much as I hate to say it, any rebuilding effort should consider moving him and Bibby first. There won't be anyone else that we can get those coveted 07 1st rounders for except those two.

 

[nbrans]

Wow.

 

[BMiller52]

If I were Petrie I'd explain to Ron that we're going through a down year but we should be back next offseason. I'd trade Mike for Eddy Jones and Hakim Warrick. I'd try to find an expirer for Reef or Miller(either one, both are irrelevent IMO) and maybe get a pick in with the trade. Kenny would be traded for a shooter off the bench. In the offseason I'd take my cap room and sign Darko and maybe Mo Williams. I'd use my 2 draft picks and maybe Cisco to move up and grab Durant or Brandan Wright. Meanwhile I'd let Kevin and Ron get used to shooting a lot and handling double teams. That would maybe keep him satisfied in the short term IMO. Then next year I think a team of:
Mo/Price
Martin/Salmons
Artest/Bench shooter
Warrick/Wright(or Durant)
Darko/(back up C-remind Petrie we need one of those!)

That team is young, has a core, and would be a contender soon and last for years. I know this post might belong in the personnel forum but ehh, I'm using this to show that we don't need to trade Ron to rebuild. We just need to maybe get in the lotto this year, make some trades, give him shots, etc. There are ways to keep him happy IMO. Otherwise we might end up like the Portland trailblazers.

 

[Cal-Kings]

Teams don't really build through the draft any longer. It takes too long. They add a player here or there.

We need to keep the best and youngest players we have as our core and then start to trade for the missing parts. Much like Petrie did to build the 1998 team into the 2002 team.

I'd keep Artest, Martin, Garcia, Price, Salmons as a core to build on.
Bibby is a fine player, but he's stuck in the Adelman regime. So is Miller. They weren't adapting to Muss's offense and forced him to bring back some of Adelman's offense. This has to be temporary.

Muss can't be his own man if he can't bring in his own schemes.
If Muss is "the man" then he has to be able to build the team his way. I miss Adelman, but he's gone and it's time to move forward, full steam ahead, for better or worse.

If Bibby and Miller don't fit, then they are clogging up the works. I like the guys, but you can't build a great team by halfway hanging onto the old.

 

[sidney]

Teams don't really build through the draft any longer. It takes too long. They add a player here or there.

I agree, that's what teams seem to do, but with what success? That's what we've been doing, but pretty much every contender has a top draft pick leader/star. Have to get them somehow.

Ron's contract is up at the end of next year and the chances of him resigning if the Kings are losing is almost 0.

 

[Cal-Kings]

I agree, that's what teams seem to do, but with what success? That's what we've been doing, but pretty much every contender has a top draft pick leader/star. Have to get them somehow.

Ron's salary is up at the end of next year and the chances of him resigning if the Kings are losing is almost 0.

Look how long it took the Lakers to win after drafting Kobe.

The Bobcats have some drafted talent. They stink and aren't getting better anytime soon.

The Warriors have been drafting high for a decade or more.

The Lakers won when they traded for Shaq. (Yeah, technically they traded for Kobe too.)

Most of the top teams have their stars via trade.

Except when the Spurs magically got Duncan.

 

[BMiller52]

I agree, that's what teams seem to do, but with what success? That's what we've been doing, but pretty much every contender has a top draft pick leader/star. Have to get them somehow.

Ron's salary is up at the end of next year and the chances of him resigning if the Kings are losing is almost 0.

The Heat only took a dive in the lotto for like 1 season. The Suns-same thing to get cap room. Detroit-picked up guys here and there. The Spurs took a dive for a season to get their franchise guy. Mavs picked up a guy here and there but also let their young guy(Dirk) develope into what he is now that he's in his prime. You don't have to suck for multiple years, you need cap room and 1-2 high picks to get an impact player.

 

[tyrant]

Then next year I think a team of:
Mo/Price
Martin/Salmons
Artest/Bench shooter
Warrick/Wright(or Durant)
Darko/(back up C-remind Petrie we need one of those!)

SORRY, but that lineup is too immature. i wonder if we can get jermaine oneal. what would the pacers say if we packaged martin, thomas, corliss and price

 

[Cal-Kings]

The Heat only took a dive in the lotto for like 1 season. The Suns-same thing to get cap room. Detroit-picked up guys here and there. The Spurs took a dive for a season to get their franchise guy. Mavs picked up a guy here and there but also let their young guy(Dirk) develope into what he is now that he's in his prime. You don't have to suck for multiple years, you need cap room and 1-2 high picks to get an impact player.

The Wolves drafted KG but because they paid him such a humongous amount of money, they can't put talent around him.

I wonder if LeBron will stay in Cleveland once his contract is up?

 

[PFFFT!!]

Sounds like everyone officially hit the infamous "panic button".

 

[y2kings]

Teams can't be built thru drafting? All you need is 1 player through the draft that is a superstar to change things around...just look...lebron, duncan, howard, AI! Melo...the list goes one...AMARE!!!

 

[Cal-Kings]

Teams can't be built thru drafting? All you need is 1 player through the draft that is a superstar to change things around...just look...lebron, duncan, howard, AI! Melo...the list goes one...AMARE!!!

Duncan came onto a team that was already a playoff level team.

I'm not saying you can't draft great players.

I'm just saying that if you rely only on drafting them, it will take a VERY VERY long time to win.

Cleveland, Orlando, Denver, Philly haven't won with those guys. Maybe they will in the next 10 years.

What I'm saying is do what Petrie did in 98. Build through trades. Then you know what you're getting.

 

[y2kings]

Dude...cleveland, denver and orlando are in the top 10 of the league in 3 years....

 

[Cal-Kings]

Sounds like everyone officially hit the infamous "panic button".

I was riding along fine until last night.

We were beating the bad teams, and struggling but close, against the good teams.

Last night we lost in a humiliating fashion to a bad team.

I'm ticked.

 

[Cal-Kings]

Dude...cleveland, denver and orlando are in the top 10 of the league in 3 years....

Yes, and in 3 more years, maybe one of them will have a ring.

What's your point? You're not addressing mine yet.

 

[Cal-Kings]

Yes, and in 3 more years, maybe one of them will have a ring.

What's your point? You're not addressing mine yet.

Also, please tell me how long they lived in the cellar before they got lucky in the draft?

Are we talking 8-10 years? Adding 3 more after those drafts.

Drafting is fine. If you're a lottery team, by all means, draft someone.

 

[sidney]

Look how long it took the Lakers to win after drafting Kobe.

The Bobcats have some drafted talent. They stink and aren't getting better anytime soon.

The Warriors have been drafting high for a decade or more.

The Lakers won when they traded for Shaq. (Yeah, technically they traded for Kobe too.)

Most of the top teams have their stars via trade.

Except when the Spurs magically got Duncan.

There are plenty of teams that draft high that aren't contenders - so no it doesn't always work, but who gets their young superstars (I mean top 10 players) but through the draft? Shaq and Webber are the only I can think of - a rare combination of young unhappy elite talent. That's more rare than getting it through the draft.

Anyway, my point is that even a quick rebuild of a year or two (unlikley) will not be something Artest will hang around and be happy with. Then you've lost great talent for nothing...again.

 

[Cal-Kings]

There are plenty of teams that draft high that aren't contenders - so no it doesn't always work, but who gets their young superstars (I mean top 10 players) but through the draft? Shaq and Webber are the only I can think of - a rare combination of young unhappy elite talent. That's more rare than getting it through the draft.

Anyway, my point is that even a quick rebuild of a year or two (unlikley) will not be something Artest will hang around and be happy with. Then you've lost great talent for nothing...again.

So you're just talking about Artest then?

I was talking about a strategy to build a team.

I don't think the strategy that says "lets lose as many games as we can and then hopefully draft the next KG" is a strategy.

I think finding core players, moving others in and out, certainly using the draft when it's there, is a better strategy. In other words, again, the Petrie strategy of 1998-2002.

 

[thatguy]

Sounds like everyone officially hit the infamous "panic button".

Yeah, and it looks like they found the "New Thread" button, too.

 

[Cal-Kings]

Yeah, and it looks like they found the "New Thread" button, too.

Are people not allowed to start new threads?

 

[sidney]

So you're just talking about Artest then?

I was talking about a strategy to build a team.

I don't think the strategy that says "lets lose as many games as we can and then hopefully draft the next KG" is a strategy.

I think finding core players, moving others in and out, certainly using the draft when it's there, is a better strategy. In other words, again, the Petrie strategy of 1998-2002.

Fair enough. If there is a Webber or Shaq type (in their prime) out there that we get an opportunity to trade for, I am 100% with you. Can't wait around for that though so if it doesn't happen, trade guys like Artest/Bibby for young talent/high picks while there value is high. This means playing guys like Ronnie Price and Cisco a LOT more. We probably lose more and get a higher pick + the picks we trade for.

Now we have an opportuinity to build a young core quickly.

I'm talking about Artest specifically in that I just don't think he's a good guy to have around through a period of losing - even a year or so. He has incredible trade value as well.

 

[sidney]

Yeah, and it looks like they found the "New Thread" button, too.

Maybe you could add that to your new "thoughts for the day" thread series

 

[Cal-Kings]

Fair enough. If there is a Webber or Shaq type (in their prime) out there that we get an opportunity to trade for, I am 100% with you. Can't wait around for that though so if it doesn't happen, trade guys like Artest/Bibby for young talent/high picks while there value is high. This means playing guys like Ronnie Price and Cisco a LOT more. We probably lose more and get a higher pick + the picks we trade for.

Now we have an opportuinity to build a young core quickly.

I'm talking about Artest specifically in that I just don't think he's a good guy to have around through a period of losing - even a year or so. He has incredible trade value as well.

If Artest doesn't want to be part of the core of a rebuilding team, then sure, trade him.

A lot of star quality players are no longer playing for the team that drafted them.

Besides Webber and Shaq,

Vince Carter
Steve Nash
Ray Allen
Lamar Odom
Gilbert Arenas
Tracy McGrady
Grant Hill
Larry Hughes
Rip Hamilton
Rasheed Wallace
Ben Wallace
Jermaine O'Neal

... and more.

Players move around alot for the right money and/or the right team.

 

[thatguy]

Maybe you could add that to your new "thoughts for the day" thread series

Burn!!!!

 

[sidney]

If Artest doesn't want to be part of the core of a rebuilding team, then sure, trade him.

A lot of star quality players are no longer playing for the team that drafted them.

Besides Webber and Shaq,

Vince Carter
Steve Nash
Ray Allen
Lamar Odom
Gilbert Arenas
Tracy McGrady
Grant Hill
Larry Hughes
Rip Hamilton
Rasheed Wallace
Ben Wallace
Jermaine O'Neal

... and more.

Players move around alot for the right money and/or the right team.

ok. I'm talking about a different level of talent

Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, KG types. Webber was arguably not in that league but Shaq was when he went to the lakers. Just doesn't happen that often though and when it does, probably not coming to Sac. Don't see us getting a guy like that other than the draft

 

[Bricklayer]

Teams don't really build through the draft any longer. It takes too long. They add a player here or there.

I have no idea where people keep coming up with this. Basically ALL teams "build through the draft", at least to get the cornerstone player.

Here are all of the contenders this year, everybody who is winning 60% of their games or more (basically 50 win type teams):

Miami -- Wade (#5 pick)
Spurs -- Duncan (#1 pick) (also Manu and Parker as late steals BTW)
Mavs -- Dirk (#10 pick) (also Howard as late steal)
Rockets -- Yao (#1 pick)
Cavs -- LeBron (#1 pick)
Suns -- Marion (#9 pick), Amare (#9 pick)
Magic -- (Howard #1 pick) (also Nelson as good late pick)
Jazz -- (Williams #3 pick) (also AK47 late round steal)
Nuggets -- (Melo #3 pick)

the only two that can be considered exceptions are the Lakers, who traded for Kobe on draft day as a #13 pick, and of course the Pistons, who;ve long been the sole exception to every rule. They still drafted Prince, but Darko was their stab at hgih pick greatness, and they blew it.


Building through the draft, nabbing one or more great players in the lottery, is an essential mechanic of just about every great team's rise. Including ours BTW. Peja was late lottery (#14), and in the early years more importantly JWill was a #7 pick to help kickstart hte whole thing. And actually Webb was of course a former #1 that came to us as we went down the long and winding road from getting the #2 pick back in 1991 -- we parlay the #2 pick into Mitch Richmond (1 franchise player) then turn that franchise player into another franchise player (Webb)...then turn that franchise player into a pile of random garbage.


Its not enough 100% on its own -- the timely trade or free agent acquisition is often what puts these teams over the top. But the draft is still a core part of the whole process.

 

[Cal-Kings]

ok. I'm talking about a different level of talent

Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Dirk, Duncan, KG types. Webber was arguably not in that league but Shaq was when he went to the lakers. Just doesn't happen that often though and when it does, probably not coming to Sac. Don't see us getting a guy like that other than the draft

So then, your strategy is to lose as many games as possible hoping to get the next LeBron?

The Pistons just won a championship without one of those handful of players.

I'll take the strategy that says let's keep building through trades because we'd have to literally win the lottery to get a LeBron, Wade, or Duncan.

 

[Cal-Kings]

...... Peja was late lottery (#14), and in the early years more importantly JWill was a #8 pick to help kickstart he whole thing. And actually Webb was of course a former #1 that came to us as we down the long and winding road from getting the #2 pick back in 1991 -- we parlay the #2 pick into Mitch Richmond (1 franchise player) then turn that franchise player into another franchise player (Webb)...then turn that franchise player into a pile of random garbage.

So you're saying that if we just kept Peja and J-Will, we'd have won a championship?

Or maybe trading for Vlade and Webber (yes, somebody else's #1) had more to do with the success we had?

And you're saying that your recommendation is to lose as many games as possible and hope to get the next LeBron?

 

[Cal-Kings]

...
Its not enough 100% on its own -- the timely trade or free agent acquisition is often what puts these teams over the top. But the draft is still a core part of the whole process.

Ahah...

Exactly.

I believe that's what I've been saying all along.

 

[Bricklayer]

And you're saying that your recommendation is to lose as many games as possible and hope to get the next LeBron?

Oh, I am saying something very much like that. THAT is how it is done. Liquidate, score stud, rebuild. We have a good young player (Kevin) to play the late rnd steal role. We have Ron. Now its time to dive into nthe draft, nab a young stud, THEN worry about addin the extra free agent piece or whatever after we have the core Ron/stud/Kevin thing down. Actually in an ideal world you drqaft two studs and go Ron/stud/stud/Kevin. Then one big FA signing with your cap room and you are back.

As an aside -- as my intial list shows, we got flat out lucky with Webb. Geoff actually blew that draft with two franchise players still on the board (Dirk, Pierce), and we just lucky to pull off something that is very rarely pulled off -- the centerpiece guy coming via trade. Those guys are rarely moved, and almost never when still young.