Artest and Rebuilding

[sidney]

So then, your strategy is to lose as many games as possible hoping to get the next LeBron?

The Pistons just won a championship without one of those handful of players.

I'll take the strategy that says let's keep building through trades because we'd have to literally win the lottery to get a LeBron, Wade, or Duncan.

Pistons = anomaly

You need elite talent to win the big one, and young elite talent so you have time to develop chemistry. Lottery is no guarantee obviously.

The strategy is not to "lose as many games as possible waiting for Lebron", but to get young talent/picks and develop them at the expense of winning knowing the wins will come. Hoping for the next Lebron obviosuly

 

[sidney]

Oh, I am saying something very much like that. THAT is how it is done. Liquidate, score stud, rebuild. We have a good young player (Kevin) to play the late rnd steal role. We have Ron. Now its time to dive into nthe draft, nab a young stud, THEN worry about addin the extra free agent piece or whatever after we have the core Ron/stud/Kevin thing down. Actually in an ideal world you drqaft two studs and go Ron/stud/stud/Kevin. Then one big FA signing with your cap room and you are back.

As an aside -- as my intial list shows, we got flat out lucky with Webb. Geoff actually blew that draft with two franchise players still on the board (Dirk, Pierce), and we just lucky to pull off something that is very rarely pulled off -- the centerpiece guy coming via trade. Those guys are rarely moved, and almost never when still young.

Think it's worth trading Artest for a better shot in the 07 draft?

 

[hammystyle]

The Wolves drafted KG but because they paid him such a humongous amount of money, they can't put talent around him.

I wonder if LeBron will stay in Cleveland once his contract is up?

No, they can't put talent around him because they have a horrendous draft record, sanctions by the league, bad trades and signings, and have been a little unlucky too (Brandon and Gugliotta's injuries).

Brick's list of how championship teams are built is exactly right. If you're going to dump, this is the year to do it. Give up Bibby, Miller, and maybe even Artest for salary relief and picks. Its scary, but I think its less a panic button move and more the correct move for the franchise.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

So you're just talking about Artest then?

I was talking about a strategy to build a team.

I don't think the strategy that says "lets lose as many games as we can and then hopefully draft the next KG" is a strategy.

I think finding core players, moving others in and out, certainly using the draft when it's there, is a better strategy. In other words, again, the Petrie strategy of 1998-2002.

not to burst your bubble but you have to two to tangle in a trade. petrie got lucky in 98 when he stole webber from the wizards. i don't recall exactly what happened but theres a reason why webb was traded.

that same year, we oops had a LOTTO pick and picked up white chocolate.

pree drog who was a fairly high draft pick finally got his *** over to the states

we signed chain smoker, picked pollard up off waivers and a bunch of other loose parts (barry etc).

we had capspace, lotto pick and luck in snagging webb in 98 so please stop dismissing that we don't need a high draft pick. things don't always magically happen overnight like it did back in 98.

 

[Bricklayer]

Think it's worth trading Artest for a better shot in the 07 draft?

Not unless he blows up. He's young, he's an elite talent. Menatlity aside, he's what you are looking for. If we trade him, then that means we have to go out and draft a guy at least as good just to get back to even. So now you have to draft two studs instead of one. He may force our hand if he gets ready to blow, but no, if we ever do wise up and rebuild, I think Ron and Kevin are the holdovers. Then you can be back with 1 stud in the draft and 1 good FA. And if you somehow get two studs in the draft you emerge as one of those ooh and aah aren't they so talented teams because you've already got the secondary wingman and star defender in the fold.

 

[nbrans]

not to burst your bubble but you have to two to tangle in a trade. petrie got lucky in 98 when he stole webber from the wizards. i don't recall exactly what happened but theres a reason why webb was traded.

that same year, we oops had a LOTTO pick and picked up white chocolate.

pree drog who was a fairly high draft pick finally got his *** over to the states

we signed chain smoker, picked pollard up off waivers and a bunch of other loose parts (barry etc).

we had capspace, lotto pick and luck in snagging webb in 98 so please stop dismissing that we don't need a high draft pick. things don't always magically happen overnight like it did back in 98.

We may have cap space and a lotto pick this offseason for the first time since '98. He's hoping for luck.

 

[Padrino]

We may have cap space and a lotto pick this offseason for the first time since '98. He's hoping for luck.

its better to be lucky than good.

for geoff's sake, i hope he finds some luck. i don't think he's in any danger of losing his job, but still, these last few years have been rough for him.

 

[Bricklayer]

If the capspace results from losing one of our best players for nothing (Bibby) Geoff is going to need more than luck. That's not the kind of capspace you want to secure -- basically Mike Bibby is the guy you want to SIGN with capspace. As is, its just a modified talent bleed. The equivalent of a bad trade of Mike for some lesser player that you may or may not get depending on the vagaries of the market and where he wants to play. Now Corliss/Pot/Hart type capspace -- that's good capspace where you hope to fill it up with a much better player.

 

[sidney]

Not unless he blows up. He's young, he's an elite talent. Menatlity aside, he's what you are looking for. If we trade him, then that means we have to go out and draft a guy at least as good just to get back to even. So now you have to draft two studs instead of one. He may force our hand if he gets ready to blow, but no, if we ever do wise up and rebuild, I think Ron and Kevin are the holdovers. Then you can be back with 1 stud in the draft and 1 good FA. And if you somehow get two studs in the draft you emerge as one of those ooh and aah aren't they so talented teams because you've already got the secondary wingman and star defender in the fold.

At this point, it appears the Maloofs agree. The metality is the catch, but my guess is that we'lll know by the end of the year how Artest deals with losing and being patient while we rebuild/retool.

Holding on is one thing, but we need him to hold on plus resign with us within a year or so. If he's up for that, keeping him is a no-brainer. Risk is that if we wait until an explosion/trade demand and we then have somewhat less value to trade with

 

[Venom]

If the capspace results from losing one of our best players for nothing (Bibby) Geoff is going to need more than luck. That's not the kind of capspace you want to secure -- basically Mike Bibby is the guy you want to SIGN with capspace. As is, its just a modified talent bleed. The equivalent of a bad trade of Mike for some lesser player that you may or may not get depending on the vagaries of the market and where he wants to play. Now Corliss/Pot/Hart type capspace -- that's good capspace where you hope to fill it up with a much better player.

I disagree. It would be nice to move Mike before the deadline and get a younger up-and-comer (Heinrich, David Lee, Livingston, Gerald Green) plus a pick, but if that doesn't happen then his free agency departure gives us cap space. With that kind of space we would be competitive for a guy like Darko.

Either way, I don't Bibby fits into whatever sceme Muss will ultimately be running and will not be back next year.

 

[Roman]

I'm talking about Artest specifically in that I just don't think he's a good guy to have around through a period of losing - even a year or so. He has incredible trade value as well.

I agree with the first part. I don't think we're going to want to have Artest around - after even another month of this crud. He's a headcase. I mean, he's even got the tick to prove it.

The problem is the second part - I don't think he has incredible trade value. He didn't have it last year when the Pacers wanted to move him and I don't see him doing anything (or saying anything) to improve it. He wants to be the superstar ... and he isn't one.

I mean, why do we all know Artest? He's a mouthpiece and it's like watching a slo-mo accident ... you can't turn away. He's a great man-on-man defender, but he's a "superstar" by mouth not by deed.

 

[Bricklayer]

I disagree. It would be nice to move Mike before the deadline and get a younger up-and-comer (Heinrich, David Lee, Livingston, Gerald Green) plus a pick, but if that doesn't happen then his free agency departure gives us cap space. With that kind of space we would be competitive for a guy like Darko.

Either way, I don't Bibby fits into whatever sceme Muss will ultimately be running and will not be back next year.

And Darko may be a nice player. But you are completely kidding youself if you think -Bibby +Darko leads to anything other than an extended stay in lotteryville. Give us more shots at the apple, and we can go really young with years of lottery picks, but when one of your major stars just walks for nothing...then you've just trade Mike Bibby for Dako Milicic more or less straight up. Yay. Kevin's a nice kid and a good scorer, but we've gotten soem taste in recent weeks of what happens to him if other teams key on him. Once we jsut let a 20ppg scorer walk, I'm sure he'll still be able to average 15ppg in the face of the constant quintuple teams.

 

[Venom]

And Darko may be a nice player. But you are completely kidding youself if you think -Bibby +Darko leads to anything other than an extended stay in lotteryville. Give us more shots at the apple, and we can go really young with years of lottery picks, but when one of your major stars just walks for nothing...then you've just trade Mike Bibby for Dako Milicic more or less straight up. Yay. Kevin's a nice kid and a good scorer, but we've gotten soem taste in recent weeks of what happens to him if other teams key on him. Once we jsut let a 20ppg scorer walk, I'm sure he'll still be able to average 15ppg in the face of the constant quintuple teams.

I put in another thread that I think that cap space would be put towards a defensive/rebounding big and a distributing PG, neither of which would wow us at signing time but would during the season. I don't have any names off-hand.

The problem with Bibby is that he and every other shoot-first PG have a lot less utility since the rule changes. Today's PG needs to be a distributor who can penetrate off the dribble. Bibby can score, but he needs an offense designed for him to do that, which we no longer have the overall personnel to run. He would still be great, as you have mentioned, for a team like the Cavs who would really only need his shooting. We don't have much use anymore for Bibby other than as trade bait or cap room.

Also, stop worrying so much about "talent bleed". We can always attain and develop more talent, but we can't always get rid of bad contracts. Petrie has offloaded just about all our albatrosses except Miller, since Bibby is on the way out. We are currently one of the few fiscally responsible teams in the league who doesn't just hand out max extensions.