and with the #1 pick in the 2009 NBA draft the Kings select...
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Brandon Jennings High and Low lights in Rome
Against Tau Vitoria: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twl2F5iB7sA
Against Montepaschi Siena: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYrQG1w00ko
This guy has elite speed, elite court vision, and elite athleticism. I want him in a Kings jersey ASAP. All of his weaknesses are easily correctable.
Against Tau Vitoria: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twl2F5iB7sA
Against Montepaschi Siena: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYrQG1w00ko
This guy has elite speed, elite court vision, and elite athleticism. I want him in a Kings jersey ASAP. All of his weaknesses are easily correctable.
Well, I wouldn't say "easily" correctable. Nothing he can't overcome with hard work and determination. He's still unproven as far as a true team leader/facilitator and decision maker. As of this point, he's a tools guy. High risk, high reward pick but I think he's a good PG prospect to end up with. I take Rubio and Holiday over him, but he's not a bad consolation prize.
You know, after watching each college guys a few times, I have come to a somewhat reluctant conclusion that the best PG in the 2009 draft... doesn't even play the PG position. But make no mistake about it, James Harden is the best playmaker from the this draft, hands down. Greg Anthony called him "A one in a two's body." I think Harden is like Rodney Stuckey/Brandon Roy - he can excel at the 1 or the 2.
Harden's intangible is off the chart and his game translates well to the NBA. I think most teams would want him at the 2, but for us, he'll be a one. He reminds me a little of Baron Davis - a PG who can score, pass, and too big and strong for most PGs.
To me, Harden is a franchise player. Yes, I'm calling him the next outstanding guard, right now. In fact, if it's up to me, I'd use the #1 pick on Harden. Imagine a Harden/Martin backcourt, it can turn out to be the best combo in the NBA. Imo, if there's one guy we should be targeting in this draft, this is the guy.
Harden's intangible is off the chart and his game translates well to the NBA. I think most teams would want him at the 2, but for us, he'll be a one. He reminds me a little of Baron Davis - a PG who can score, pass, and too big and strong for most PGs.
To me, Harden is a franchise player. Yes, I'm calling him the next outstanding guard, right now. In fact, if it's up to me, I'd use the #1 pick on Harden. Imagine a Harden/Martin backcourt, it can turn out to be the best combo in the NBA. Imo, if there's one guy we should be targeting in this draft, this is the guy.
Unless you can cook up some scheme where he doesn't have to guard 1's, then maybe I'll be open to that idea but until then he's not even close to being athletic enough to play the point. If we want the crappiest backcourt defense in the league, I guess it would be a good idea to have a Harden/Martin backcourt. There's a reason why he's generally not considered a combo guard even though he's around 6'4.
As you know, I'm a big fan of Hardin's and I agree with the post about his ballhandling and passing skills. Maybe another way to look at it is the possiblilty of Martin becoming a chronic injury player. Having a Hardin lurking in the wings wouldn't be a bad idea. He would be a perfect player for the triangle offense. He's not a bad defender, but I agree with you that I wouldn't want him trying to defend the point guards of the world.
I guess my point is, that if your turn comes and you can take a Rubio or a Jenning's, then you go ahead and gamble on them. I don't think either of them are absolute sure things, as much as I think Hardin is. But it is an area of need and the risk is worth it. But if their gone off the board and all thats left is Curry or someone else that doesn't exactly blow your socks off, then I think you go for Hardin, who is in my opinion one of the top five players in the draft. Of course there's always the Gambit family. To whom I want to wish a Merry Christmas.
I guess my point is, that if your turn comes and you can take a Rubio or a Jenning's, then you go ahead and gamble on them. I don't think either of them are absolute sure things, as much as I think Hardin is. But it is an area of need and the risk is worth it. But if their gone off the board and all thats left is Curry or someone else that doesn't exactly blow your socks off, then I think you go for Hardin, who is in my opinion one of the top five players in the draft. Of course there's always the Gambit family. To whom I want to wish a Merry Christmas.
Harden is not a combo guard because he can flat out play as a pure one or a pure two. I can live with Harden's defense at the point the same way other teams can live with Mike Bibby, Steve Nash and Magic Johnson's defense at the point.
I think where we differ is that I don't consider a PG's lack of defense a deal-breaker. And yes, if we have Harden at PG, we CAN cook up some scheme where he doesn't have to guard other PGs. Similar to how the showtime Lakers cooked up some scheme so Magic doesn't have to chase those speedster. You don't pass up a franchise PG just because he can't guard Chris Paul.
I think where we differ is that I don't consider a PG's lack of defense a deal-breaker. And yes, if we have Harden at PG, we CAN cook up some scheme where he doesn't have to guard other PGs. Similar to how the showtime Lakers cooked up some scheme so Magic doesn't have to chase those speedster. You don't pass up a franchise PG just because he can't guard Chris Paul.
I agree to a large degree - if the choice is between Harden, Curry, Lawson, Mills, and Collison, it's Harden hands down. But I'd go further and say that I'd pick Harden over Jennings, and maybe Rubio (depending on how well he improved his jumpshots).
I've seen some games footage of Jennings (I admit, not that many footage so I may be way off) and I still don't know why all the hype. The only thing I can take away from watching Jennings is that he is not ready for the NBA. Right now, I don't even see Jennings as a lottery pick because I know that raw/project PG usually don't go lottery (Telfair is the only exception as far as I can remember).
Rubio vs. Harden is a tough choice. I'd give Harden a slight edge right now because I believe that if Harden decides to shoot less and just run pick n roll and find teammates, he can produce similar results to Rubio. But on the flip side, if you tell Rubio to shoot more and dominate offensively like Harden, I don't think Rubio can do it. Harden is like Rubio with offense. The only question is Harden's defense at the one, and I can live with that the same way I lived with Mike Bibby's defense for all these years.
I've seen some games footage of Jennings (I admit, not that many footage so I may be way off) and I still don't know why all the hype. The only thing I can take away from watching Jennings is that he is not ready for the NBA. Right now, I don't even see Jennings as a lottery pick because I know that raw/project PG usually don't go lottery (Telfair is the only exception as far as I can remember).
Rubio vs. Harden is a tough choice. I'd give Harden a slight edge right now because I believe that if Harden decides to shoot less and just run pick n roll and find teammates, he can produce similar results to Rubio. But on the flip side, if you tell Rubio to shoot more and dominate offensively like Harden, I don't think Rubio can do it. Harden is like Rubio with offense. The only question is Harden's defense at the one, and I can live with that the same way I lived with Mike Bibby's defense for all these years.
If I were the GM, I'd take Harden over Rubio or Jennings as well, but, I'm trying to be realistic about this. We do need a good Pt guard and the consensus is that Jennings and Rubio are the two best. Therefore I willing to concede to the risk. You'll notice I use the word risk when talking about the two of them and not when I'm speaking about Harden.
Harden reminds so much of Roy with his complete control of the game. He's probably the only player in the draft, that I could say would be an impact player on whatever team that chooses him. Whats interesting is that I hear the same criticism's of him that I heard about Roy before he was drafted.
What it comes down to is who is the better player right now. To my mind you have to say Harden. So the question is, will Jennings or Rubio ever be as good as Harden is right now, and will they ever be better than him?
Harden reminds so much of Roy with his complete control of the game. He's probably the only player in the draft, that I could say would be an impact player on whatever team that chooses him. Whats interesting is that I hear the same criticism's of him that I heard about Roy before he was drafted.
What it comes down to is who is the better player right now. To my mind you have to say Harden. So the question is, will Jennings or Rubio ever be as good as Harden is right now, and will they ever be better than him?
I'm not sure how effective a Harden and Martin back court would be but Harden is going to be special.
I want to talk about a couple of guys who are not getting the hype they deserve. Evan Turner from Ohio State could have the best jump shot in the country. Great defender with good quickness and excellent strength. He is going to be a player who makes an impact on both ends of the court. Doesn't handle the ball very well but finds a way to be effective going to the basket. Isn't content to just hang around the perimeter like a lot of great shooters. Not sure if hes coming out this year but when he does will probably go top 10.
Chris Wright from Georgetown is quietly becoming a great pg. Wright is a good athlete with great strength and body control, which allows him to finish around the basket effectively. Still needs to get better at running a offense but has improved a lot in that respect from his freshman year. He has great vision and passing ability but at times looks to score more then he should. Also a good defender due to a combination of strength and effort. If he continues to improve at running a offense then he could be a very good player because the rest of his game is solid. I could see him sneaking into lotto this year but is probably a mid first round pick if he comes out.
I want to talk about a couple of guys who are not getting the hype they deserve. Evan Turner from Ohio State could have the best jump shot in the country. Great defender with good quickness and excellent strength. He is going to be a player who makes an impact on both ends of the court. Doesn't handle the ball very well but finds a way to be effective going to the basket. Isn't content to just hang around the perimeter like a lot of great shooters. Not sure if hes coming out this year but when he does will probably go top 10.
Chris Wright from Georgetown is quietly becoming a great pg. Wright is a good athlete with great strength and body control, which allows him to finish around the basket effectively. Still needs to get better at running a offense but has improved a lot in that respect from his freshman year. He has great vision and passing ability but at times looks to score more then he should. Also a good defender due to a combination of strength and effort. If he continues to improve at running a offense then he could be a very good player because the rest of his game is solid. I could see him sneaking into lotto this year but is probably a mid first round pick if he comes out.
Bajaden and Bebop you both seem to think Harden is a better player then Jennings or Rubio but how much have you seen them play? I'm not saying you haven't seen them play just trying to get a frame of reference for your opinion.
I think Harden is a future star but i have seen so little of Jennings and Rubio it's hard for me to make a intelligent assessment of how they measure up.
I think Harden is a future star but i have seen so little of Jennings and Rubio it's hard for me to make a intelligent assessment of how they measure up.
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I like Wright, but at this moment another year in school wouldn't hurt him. I do think that if Georgetown continues to improve, they could be scary come March. I like Monroe a lot.
Another guy thats worth watching is Jerome Jordan out of Tulsa. I think he's really improved from last year. His offense is still in the project range, but defensively he's very good. I watched him play the other day and their doing to him what other teams are starting to do to Griffin. Double and triple teaming him as soon as he touches the ball. It kind of takes the fun out of watching him, but makes the rest of the team more effective.
I only mention him and Monroe because I think their both players that could be available at the Houston pick.
Another guy thats worth watching is Jerome Jordan out of Tulsa. I think he's really improved from last year. His offense is still in the project range, but defensively he's very good. I watched him play the other day and their doing to him what other teams are starting to do to Griffin. Double and triple teaming him as soon as he touches the ball. It kind of takes the fun out of watching him, but makes the rest of the team more effective.
I only mention him and Monroe because I think their both players that could be available at the Houston pick.
Well, you make a good point. All I have to go on is what I have seen of the two of them. I've seen more of Rubio. Thanks to the olympics. With Jennings its the Jordan classic and youtube. Based on what I have seen, if I were to rank them as far as being finished products. It would be Harden first followed by Rubio and then Jennings. Harden is an outstanding shooter. Rubio is a better shooter than he given credit for, but he does have a slow release. Jennings has good form on his shot, but is inconsistant. Not a big deal though.
Harden is a great passer, and a smart passer. I would rank him even with both of them at the moment. Rubio is flashier and more spectacular, but makes riskier passes at times. I know some people will argue with me on this one. Jennings seems to have good instincts and is good at driving and dishing, but in my limited views, I've yet to see him make the cross court bounce passes through defenders that Rubio does. Harden is a very good rebounder for his size and has an NBA body. I would say at this point, neither Rubio or Jennings have NBA bodies.
When it comes to athleticism, one would have to go with Jennings. Rubio is hard to get a read on. He doesn't appear all that athletic, but he runs the floor well. Drives to the basket well and plays very pesky defense. Harden, despite what some people will say about him, is a good athlete. He's not a freaky athlete, but certainly good enough of an athlete to play in the NBA.
I've gone on far too long on this, so I'll just say that Harden can do anything that Rubio and Jennings can do, but neither of them can do all the things that Harden can do.
Harden is a great passer, and a smart passer. I would rank him even with both of them at the moment. Rubio is flashier and more spectacular, but makes riskier passes at times. I know some people will argue with me on this one. Jennings seems to have good instincts and is good at driving and dishing, but in my limited views, I've yet to see him make the cross court bounce passes through defenders that Rubio does. Harden is a very good rebounder for his size and has an NBA body. I would say at this point, neither Rubio or Jennings have NBA bodies.
When it comes to athleticism, one would have to go with Jennings. Rubio is hard to get a read on. He doesn't appear all that athletic, but he runs the floor well. Drives to the basket well and plays very pesky defense. Harden, despite what some people will say about him, is a good athlete. He's not a freaky athlete, but certainly good enough of an athlete to play in the NBA.
I've gone on far too long on this, so I'll just say that Harden can do anything that Rubio and Jennings can do, but neither of them can do all the things that Harden can do.
If for some reason, we draft Harden, that means we have to trade Martin.
We can't keep both of them. I know Harden can play PG, like Roy, and I really like Roy, but Martin and Harden won't work.Harden is going to be a special player IMO.
BTW, my choice in 2009 draft is 1.Rubio 2.Holiday 3.Harden 4.Jennings.(For Now)
We can't keep both of them. I know Harden can play PG, like Roy, and I really like Roy, but Martin and Harden won't work.Harden is going to be a special player IMO.
BTW, my choice in 2009 draft is 1.Rubio 2.Holiday 3.Harden 4.Jennings.(For Now)
Well let me give you some what if's. What if we trade Salmons. Cisco then becomes the starting SF with Greene backing him up. Lets not forget that Martin can play SF also in the right matchup. Douby will likely be gone. So who is backing up Martin at the 2 guard? With Martin's recent injury history it would nice to have someone like Harden sitting on the bench behind Martin. I could see Harden on the floor with Brown and letting Harden handle the ball.. This allows Brown to move without the ball similar to what Bibby used to do, and also play defense on the other teams pt guard.
I've seen Rubio mostly with the Olympics. Jennings I have seen several game footages, scrimmages, and practices with Roma. You have a point that I'm only limited by what I can see and I don't discount that I have more access to see Harden than the other two.
From what I've gathered, Rubio is unlikey to declare for the 2009 Draft. So when I say that Harden is the best PG in the draft, I'm excluding Rubio. Jennings is tough to get a handle on because he is still very raw. The tools are there but you need a crystal ball to know if/when he figures out how to use them. It wouldn't surprise me if Jennings stays in Europe longer, in fact, I think he should.
Out of all three, I think Jennings is clearing the least talented (right now at least). Keep in mind that Jennings is older than you think, he's the same age as Harden (a soph), but Harden has by far the better body, jumpshot, experience, and composure. Rubio is a year younger than Jennings but already is way ahead in terms of basketball IQ and leadership. Jennings has the elite athleticism that the other two don't have, but he's playing a position where IQ triumphs physical tools.
Harden vs Rubio is a tough call. Right now, I think Harden can do all the things that Rubio can do offensively but in a less flashy way, but the reverse is not true. I think both will struggle to guard the quick small guys but I think Rubio is a little better defensively (not saying much). Still, I'd go with Harden because he is already a very good offensive player while Rubio still has ways to go to get to Harden's level.
From what I've gathered, Rubio is unlikey to declare for the 2009 Draft. So when I say that Harden is the best PG in the draft, I'm excluding Rubio. Jennings is tough to get a handle on because he is still very raw. The tools are there but you need a crystal ball to know if/when he figures out how to use them. It wouldn't surprise me if Jennings stays in Europe longer, in fact, I think he should.
Out of all three, I think Jennings is clearing the least talented (right now at least). Keep in mind that Jennings is older than you think, he's the same age as Harden (a soph), but Harden has by far the better body, jumpshot, experience, and composure. Rubio is a year younger than Jennings but already is way ahead in terms of basketball IQ and leadership. Jennings has the elite athleticism that the other two don't have, but he's playing a position where IQ triumphs physical tools.
Harden vs Rubio is a tough call. Right now, I think Harden can do all the things that Rubio can do offensively but in a less flashy way, but the reverse is not true. I think both will struggle to guard the quick small guys but I think Rubio is a little better defensively (not saying much). Still, I'd go with Harden because he is already a very good offensive player while Rubio still has ways to go to get to Harden's level.
I think I know the answer most people will give.
However, I guarentee you Holiday's stock will rise as the season goes on. Most systems put the ball in the hands of their top recruits and let them run the offense and be creators/facilitators. Howland's offensive system at UCLA is very controlled and is based on ball movement and slowing down the pace of the game and eating up clock. Farmar, Collison and Westbrook all started their UCLA careers slowly and improved drastically over the course of the season. As Holiday adjusts to the system and gets more leeway from Howland, his numbers and national reconition will improve. After UCLA makes a deep tournament run, this is going to be a much more contested question than it is likely to be now.
However, I guarentee you Holiday's stock will rise as the season goes on. Most systems put the ball in the hands of their top recruits and let them run the offense and be creators/facilitators. Howland's offensive system at UCLA is very controlled and is based on ball movement and slowing down the pace of the game and eating up clock. Farmar, Collison and Westbrook all started their UCLA careers slowly and improved drastically over the course of the season. As Holiday adjusts to the system and gets more leeway from Howland, his numbers and national reconition will improve. After UCLA makes a deep tournament run, this is going to be a much more contested question than it is likely to be now.
I can't speak for beb0p, but at this moment in time its a no brainer for me. I would take Harden. However, I like Holiday and I'm not as down on him as some are. I think he's at a disadvantage with Collison there and being asked to play the 2 with him on the floor.
I think Holiday is going to be better than Collison and by the end of the season, who knows, I may like Holiday over Harden.
Speaking of Harden. Yesterday against unbeaten BYU. He was 7 out of 13 from the floor, 16 out of 21 from the line. 6 boards, 6 assists, and 5 steals. He ended up with 30 points. He did have 3 turnovers. Other than that he didn't do much. BYU's not unbeaten anymore. Go Pac 10!
I think Holiday is going to be better than Collison and by the end of the season, who knows, I may like Holiday over Harden.
Speaking of Harden. Yesterday against unbeaten BYU. He was 7 out of 13 from the floor, 16 out of 21 from the line. 6 boards, 6 assists, and 5 steals. He ended up with 30 points. He did have 3 turnovers. Other than that he didn't do much. BYU's not unbeaten anymore. Go Pac 10!
Just my personal opinion, but I think that if Love would have stayed along with Westbrook, UCLA would have had a good chance in the tournament. Unless they really improve between now and march, I doubt they make it to the sweet 16. There are some very good teams out there this year and a lot of them are better than UCLA. I hope I'm wrong.
It will be interesting to see. I think our backcourt will be amazing come tournament time. The bigger questions mark is our froncourt. Our current front court starters are mediocre. However, Gooden and Morgan are 4 and 5 star recruits. If they develop as the season progresses, we could make a serious run. I have learned not to over-evaluate UCLA until much later in the season. More than most teams, they seem to get better as the season goes on and players adapt to Howlands system.
Well, I take Holiday because the kid has so many skills and the potential to be such a good all around player. He's the perfect fit for us and I think he has first team all defense potential.
It's not that I don't like Harden, I do. I liken him to a slightly less athletic Roy/Ginobili type, but I don't see how we accomodate for him. If we don't trade Martin, I don't see how we can move things around without having a very poorly constructed defense and a half court slown offense. I agree with bebop that exceptions can be made for poor PG defense, when you're talking a franchise PG, but I don't see Harden being a franchise PG.
It's not that I don't like Harden, I do. I liken him to a slightly less athletic Roy/Ginobili type, but I don't see how we accomodate for him. If we don't trade Martin, I don't see how we can move things around without having a very poorly constructed defense and a half court slown offense. I agree with bebop that exceptions can be made for poor PG defense, when you're talking a franchise PG, but I don't see Harden being a franchise PG.