Analyzing the Murray pick (Split from the Welcome thread)

[Ozymandias]

What's gonna happen at the 3 spot if Murray is pegged into the 4?

We're gonna run a full gammut of SF's who cant drive the ball other then a straightline vs a broken defense? Thats preposterous.. It'll get them nowhere..

Seems like a zero sum game to me.. N the Kings gotta worry about their opponents, not bringing in a healthy roster start of the season thats imbalanced with 0 injuries. despite the vocal majority of this board thinking Murray is going to mostly play the 4, he's obviously going to settle in at the 3.

Those high % points in the paint ur looking at in the chart, he'll get more of those if he can leak out on the break from the 3 spot rather than the 4... The post ups ur seeing he'll get more of those vs mismatched wings than he will backing down 4's...

 

[SacTownKid]

I think your pigeon-holing him... He did a lot of damage in the paint on the move... In transition.. after broken plays, or flying in and timing offensive rebounds/ putbacks.'


Tony Parker used to get tons of points in the paint too, doesnt mean he was a Forward/Big... Murray got a lot of his points in that paint where he'd start on the perimeter and discard the first defender/break the defense, then get into the paint and finish ---- thats what the Kings need him for after the 3pt shooting, its something severly lacking on the roster ---- Look at the other wings Sacramento has --- Justin Holiday, DiVicenzo, Mo Harkless, Tereence Davis --- These guys cant do that they are Jump shooters... I think there's really a big failure of understanding what Murray can do, and what the Kings need, going on here..


The idea that he doesnt have guard skills and is some 4 is completely absurd, and ur setting urselves up for a big surprise, look at how he faces up.. He's got excellent balance and feet... Iowa needed to use him at the rim so much because he was a matchup problem VS COLLEGE players there, in the NBA it's not gonna be that way... Did u not see Wiggins bother Tatum so much in the finals..

Dude, nobody is saying he doesn't have some of those skills, just that the ones he does have are too good not to use. As of now, he didn't show those playmaking skills of a 3. He didn't. That's a fact. He could have them, could develop them, but what he is right now might be good enough. This team with a catch and shoot 4 that can also post up is a good fit IMO.

 

[Ozymandias]

Its not a fact dude... its quite obviously just your opinion.

 

[Ozymandias]

Dude, nobody is saying he doesn't have some of those skills, just that the ones he does have are too good not to use. As of now, he didn't show those playmaking skills of a 3. He didn't. That's a fact. He could have them, could develop them, but what he is right now might be good enough. This team with a catch and shoot 4 that can also post up is a good fit IMO.

So lets lock Murray into the PF position...


What then is the outlook at the SF spot?

Do we need to tank another year to get a SF in your opinion?

 

[The_Jamal]

Yeah Barnes/Murray are both very interchangeable at the 3/4. Their "position" will be defined about who you want them to line up against. That's a good thing having that versatility.

 

[SacTownKid]

What's gonna happen at the 3 spot if Murray is pegged into the 4?

We're gonna run a full gammut of SF's who cant drive the ball other then a straightline vs a broken defense? Thats preposterous.. It'll get them nowhere..

Seems like a zero sum game to me.. N the Kings gotta worry about their opponents, not bringing in a healthy roster start of the season thats imbalanced with 0 injuries. despite the vocal majority of this board thinking Murray is going to mostly play the 4, he's obviously going to settle in at the 3.

I think you're underrating Barnes a bit here. He's better off the dribble than Murray is, and a more natural face up player. On the flipside, much like Brand, Murray is rare 6'8" F with the length of defense to change and block shots at the rim. The hope with Murray and Barnes is that they are kind of interchangeable and while more 4 than 3, are skilled enough to have a unique level of versatility and mismatch potential. So you can call them what you want, SF/PF/C whatever, I think Brown could feasibly gets shots through any of Domas, Barnes, or Murray from the paint one play, then stick them at the 3 point line the next play if Sabonis' shot comes along.

 

[Ozymandias]

I think you're underrating Barnes a bit here. He's better off the dribble than Murray is, and a more natural face up player. On the flipside, much like Brand, Murray is rare 6'8" F with the length of defense to change and block shots at the rim. The hope with Murray and Barnes is that they are kind of interchangeable and while more 4 than 3, are skilled enough to have a unique level of versatility and mismatch potential. So you can call them what you want, SF/PF/C whatever, I think Brown could feasibly gets shots through any of Domas, Barnes, or Murray from the paint one play, then stick them at the 3 point line the next play if Sabonis' shot comes along.

No he's not... Well now i understand the absurdity of ur take.. You are confused..

 

[SacTownKid]

So lets lock Murray into the PF position...


What then is the outlook at the SF spot?

Do we need to tank another year to get a SF in your opinion?

I'm not saying anything about position, just that they better not expect Murray to be a primary wing scorer when his post game might be pretty nice in the NBA. If Murray can get as much usage and have as much success as he did at the rim in college in the NBA and put up those types of scoring nights then the SF position might best be filled by a 3 and D player like Holiday and tanking for a SF might not even be needed. Who knows. Time will tell.

 

[Ozymandias]

show me a play where Harrison Barnes Fakes a 3, takes 2 dribbles like he's going to drive the paint, then shifts his whole momentum into a crossover and creates seperation for a wide open midrange j.

That type of stuff is in Murray's arsenal. Ill get the footage if u want, sounds like u havent seen it.

 

[SacTownKid]

No he's not... Well now i understand the absurdity of ur take.. You are confused..

We shall see. In the end it depends on what the scouts and coaching staff sees. If they don't see that elite drop step into the low post they're missing his best asset IMO.

 

[LPKingsFan]

As of this point, I’d expect Barnes and Murray to both start at forward. Does it matter which is called the 3 and which is called the 4?

Now, if you trade Barnes for someone like Collins, then you’d want to be sure Murray would work as a 3.

 

[SacTownKid]

show me a play where Harrison Barnes Fakes a 3, takes 2 dribbles like he's going to drive the paint, then shifts his whole momentum into a crossover and creates seperation for a wide open midrange j.

That type of stuff is in Murray's arsenal.

It might be, but the shot chart shows Murrays midrange game in pretty plain english. They both have face up skills but like I said before, if you watch Murray, he has a dropstep move that he tends to go to, and it's actually really, really good.

Both can realistically do this but in a face up game, the trick is to remain faced up.

 

[Ozymandias]

Harrison Barnes is 30 years old guys... It's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he's not a 20pt per game scorer.. Even on 16.2 FGA's for Dallas when they tried to force it, he scored 19.2ppg..

Have the Kings made some crazy error in not forcing Barnes to create off the dribble? ??????? He's better off the dribble than Keegan Murray?!? WHAT?

Barnes has shot 10-11 FGA's every season for the Kings, should they up tick that to 15 so he can create off the dribble more for us? Have the Kings made a greivous error in not letting Harrison Barnes take the ball coast-to-coast off of Drebs?

Next thing this guys gonna tell me is that the sky is not blue...

This is the craziest basketball conversation ive had in a long time... Is this real life?

 

[kingdivac]

Yeah for sure. Probably soon too. I keep coming back to the 3 point shooting, Sabonis, Fox and Mitchell are guys who figure to get lots of minutes that arent volume 3pt shooters, so I see lots of attempts on the table out there for his taking --- if Murray can he convert on those ample opportunities hes gonna have to hit 3's it stands to reason he's gonna become a reliable source of offense very quickly (and a threat for ROY).

and once the 3pt shot becomes reliable for him it'll open up the rest of his game in the halfcourt. What he does in transition is always gonna be there.


Murray was shooting such rediculously high percentages at the rim in college that it didnt make much sense for him to be taking crazy amounts of 3's every game, but that doesnt mean its not within his capacity to take and make a bunch... this is why Murray himself has compared his game to Khris Middleton, he knows that if he gets the NBA 3ball down consistently it'll open the rest of his offensive repitoire.

They've gotta give this kid a shot at being one of those top scoring options.. The Kings will not be good enough to play .500 ball otherwise.. The Kings have a guard in Fox, they have 2 forwards in Sabonis and Barnes, the way I see it they need Murray to be 'that' SF to really take the squad to the next level (this is also why I think the Ivey pick didnt make much sense, it have been spinning the tires in mud type situation).. Hiding / Coddling Murray also gets them nowhere they want to be..

I see Murrary as taking on the role Hield had to start on offense at least with the team setting up pick and pops, or high screens for his quick release shot .....it looks like his shooting is what you're going to see alot of next year, and why not - that's what his specialty looks to be.

 

[SacTownKid]

Harrison Barnes is 30 years old guys... It's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he's not a 20pt per game scorer.. Even on 16.2 FGA's for Dallas when they tried to force it, he scored 19.2ppg..

Have the Kings made some crazy error in not forcing Barnes to create off the dribble? ??????? He's better off the dribble than Keegan Murray?!? WHAT?

Barnes has shot 10-11 FGA's every season for the Kings, should they up tick that to 15 so he can create off the dribble more for us?

Next thing this guys gonna tell me is that the sky is not blue...

This is the craziest basketball conversation ive had in a long time... Is this real life?

And.... nobody is saying that. How about this, Barnes isn't better, perhaps more acclimated? Pretty much the crux is both are interchangeable, Murray has a good post game, Barnes and he can live at the 3 point line on catch and shoot, and potentially change off inside.

 

[hrdboild]

Harrison Barnes is 30 years old guys... It's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he's not a 20pt per game scorer.. Even on 16.2 FGA's for Dallas when they tried to force it, he scored 19.2ppg..

Have the Kings made some crazy error in not forcing Barnes to create off the dribble? ??????? He's better off the dribble than Keegan Murray?!? WHAT?

Barnes has shot 10-11 FGA's every season for the Kings, should they up tick that to 15 so he can create off the dribble more for us?

Next thing this guys gonna tell me is that the sky is not blue...

This is the craziest basketball conversation ive had in a long time... Is this real life?

Barnes just doesn't want to be the guy, for whatever reason. He played passive even back at North Carolina when he was a 5 star recruit with a #1 overall ranking from ESPN. Dallas signed him for $94 Million/4 years to be the man for them and two years later he deferred to rookie Luka Doncic. He has a lot of skills in his game that he rarely shows and I've never been able to explain why. For example, he was clearly the best 3pt shooter on the team after the Haliburton trade and he still would rather swing the ball than take the open three. Meanwhile Buddy Hield would shoot it while falling out of bounds with two defenders in his face. That's more about mental makeup than anything else and that's also why I don't think the comparison should be used to limit Keegan Murray's upside. They have similar size and some of the same skills but all Murray has to do is take every open shot and he'll be a more consistent scorer than HB has proven to be.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

This part of his game isn't really talked about to often.. He's great at getting to the line. So are Fox, Sabonis & Barnes tho.. Kings could potentially have four guys top 25 in the league at getting to the stripe!

Hopefully some day Kings will get respect from the refs in that regard. Maybe Brown can help with that.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

As of this point, I’d expect Barnes and Murray to both start at forward. Does it matter which is called the 3 and which is called the 4?

Now, if you trade Barnes for someone like Collins, then you’d want to be sure Murray would work as a 3.

This is where I'm at. Which one is 3 and which one is 4 doesn't matter a lick to me. Maybe we can bring in one more guy with similar skills and they can rotate the bulk of the minutes between 2 spots. But sometimes we will need a true PF at the 4 and that's when hopefully Murray breaks himself free from Barnes and any other similar player to be the player who gets the bulk of the minutes in that lineup. And hopefully he defines a role in a small lineup whether that is the "forward" in a 3 guard lineup or the small 5.

That's what we were banking on with him at the 4th overall imho, not that he necessarily becomes a superstar, but that he is above and beyond the players we have at the spots he can play that he asserts himself as the one who must be on the court regardless of lineup variant we run. If he does that regardless of which option he is, he's an invaluable add.

 

[Jc121]

I really hope Murray has a better game than Barnes. Barnes is a good player that complimented the teams he has played for. And with the 4th pick we need another option which is better than what we had last year at least.

I want to see a player other teams need to worry about like a equal scoring threat that opens more of the floor up. Murray looks to be that option.

 

[OptimusRhyme]

Hopefully some day Kings will get respect from the refs in that regard. Maybe Brown can help with that.

If they did Fox would probably lead the league in that category.

 

[joemama]

Harrison Barnes is 30 years old guys... It's been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt he's not a 20pt per game scorer.. Even on 16.2 FGA's for Dallas when they tried to force it, he scored 19.2ppg..

Have the Kings made some crazy error in not forcing Barnes to create off the dribble? ??????? He's better off the dribble than Keegan Murray?!? WHAT?

Barnes has shot 10-11 FGA's every season for the Kings, should they up tick that to 15 so he can create off the dribble more for us? Have the Kings made a greivous error in not letting Harrison Barnes take the ball coast-to-coast off of Drebs?

Next thing this guys gonna tell me is that the sky is not blue...

This is the craziest basketball conversation ive had in a long time... Is this real life?

Actually the sky is more of a purple, but our eyes see blue better.

 

[gunks]

Barnes just doesn't want to be the guy, for whatever reason. He played passive even back at North Carolina when he was a 5 star recruit with a #1 overall ranking from ESPN. Dallas signed him for $94 Million/4 years to be the man for them and two years later he deferred to rookie Luka Doncic. He has a lot of skills in his game that he rarely shows and I've never been able to explain why. For example, he was clearly the best 3pt shooter on the team after the Haliburton trade and he still would rather swing the ball than take the open three. Meanwhile Buddy Hield would shoot it while falling out of bounds with two defenders in his face. That's more about mental makeup than anything else and that's also why I don't think the comparison should be used to limit Keegan Murray's upside. They have similar size and some of the same skills but all Murray has to do is take every open shot and he'll be a more consistent scorer than HB has proven to be.

It's because Barnes is SAWFT.

I would love to trade him just to get new vet leadership in here. Can't have the youngsters looking to Mr Disappearing Act for guidance.

 

[Telemachus]

Here is a good breakdown of Murray from a King's fans perspective.

 

[funkykingston]

Actually the sky is more of a purple, but our eyes see blue better.

#physics

 

[iowamcnabb]

if any of you are bored, this is a one of Murray’s full games that to me represents who he is as a player. It showcases his defense and productivity while also highlighting some potential weaknesses. His stat line was bonkers for the game but what’s most impressive is his ability to get his without really being a focal point. He just played within the offense and in true Keegan fashion, you look up and he has 20 and 10 or better.