After 13 games.....

NewMonkey said:
There's a guy out there - can't recall his name offhand. He's a little undersized for the power forward, so he's more of a three. But he's instant offense off the bench. He's got an excellent low post game, consistently gets to the line and can absolutely be counted on to produce double figures as a sixth man. He's a multiyear veteran, is tough and will lay some wood on people when its needed. I think he even won a college and an NBA championship. If only I could recall his name...

Wrong team, wrong system for him unfortunately. Actually there's only the one team one system he ever really did excel in off the bench, next to a three point shooting "power" forward (Robinson) in a platoon arrangement behind a roleplaying SF. For us, just another tweener, no minutes for him at PF, and no shooting/ballhandling/passing as a SF (with limited minutes as well). Given our results thus far, I entirely understand why he could be turned to, but I also entirely understand why he hasn't been so far. With 5 35+ min starters you've got a grand total of maybe 25min at the two positions he plays combined (actually 23), and KT is eating up the bulk of those. Until/unless KT is moved, just no time.
 
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I don't get why people look down at how Bonzi is "keeping us from rebounding Armaggedon", wasn't that one of the things he was brought here to do?

And I actually have hope that this team could possibly be a middle of the road defensive team at least. They shown spurts of great defense, and that is more than I can say for all of last year. Hopefully they can play that way for 48 minutes.
 
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SacTownKid said:
I don't get why people look down at how Bonzi is "keeping us from rebounding Armaggedon", wasn't that one of the things he was brought here to do?

I would never profess to have insight into why each player has been brought here, but I'm guessing that Bonzi was brought in to HELP rebounding from the SG position, not to LEAD the team in rebounding.

The fact that he's crashing the boards is not a concern, the fact that no one else is doing the same is a huge concern.
 
GoGoGadget said:
I would never profess to have insight into why each player has been brought here, but I'm guessing that Bonzi was brought in to HELP rebounding from the SG position, not to LEAD the team in rebounding.

The fact that he's crashing the boards is not a concern, the fact that no one else is doing the same is a huge concern.

Exactly.

I will state, however, that I'm seeing more and more plays where more than one King player is actually attempting to go for a rebound - or is at least in the general vicinty.

Unfortunately, that has seemed to result in at least 1-2 turnovers every game as they seem prone to cancel each other out, either knocking the ball out of bounds or tipping it directly to the opponent.

But, which is worse? No one going for a rebound or two players trying to snag the board?

;)
 
VF21 said:
But, which is worse? No one going for a rebound or two players trying to snag the board?

Hard to say.

I do appreciate the effort, however, there's only so many times I can watch three Kings going after, but NOT GETTING, a rebound before my eyes start bleeding.
 
GoGoGadget said:
I would never profess to have insight into why each player has been brought here, but I'm guessing that Bonzi was brought in to HELP rebounding from the SG position, not to LEAD the team in rebounding.

The fact that he's crashing the boards is not a concern, the fact that no one else is doing the same is a huge concern.

As long as we win the battle of the boards I don't care if Bibby got half of them. Bottom line is that the guys are going after the boards. But I agree, there have been many rebounds that Reef and Brad need to pull in.
 
Okay... I just re-read these:

NewMonkey said:
There's a guy out there - can't recall his name offhand. He's a little undersized for the power forward, so he's more of a three. But he's instant offense off the bench. He's got an excellent low post game, consistently gets to the line and can absolutely be counted on to produce double figures as a sixth man. He's a multiyear veteran, is tough and will lay some wood on people when its needed. I think he even won a college and an NBA championship. If only I could recall his name...

And...

Bricklayer said:
Wrong team, wrong system for him unfortunately. Actually there's only the one team one system he ever really did excel in off the bench, next to a three point shooting "power" forward (Robinson) in a platoon arrangement behind a roleplaying SF. For us, just another tweener, no minutes for him at PF, and no shooting/ballhandling/passing as a SF (with limited minutes as well). Given our results thus far, I entirely understand why he could be turned to, but I also entirely understand why he hasn't been so far. With 5 35+ min starters you've got a grand total of maybe 25min at the two positions he plays combined (actually 23), and KT is eating up the bulk of those. Until/unless KT is moved, just no time.

Okay, guys. I know I'm probably going to be hitting myself in the head as soon as I post this, but WHO are you talking about???
 
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Ah, !@#$^)U#%^.

Thanks.

:o

I totally and completely missed the big globs of sarcasm dripping off NewMonkey's post...

...

...

...
 
Apparently, the tryptophan influence has now permeated my brain. I read those posts at least four times, made my response, deleted it once and then restored it. I KNEW I was missing something obvious - like one of those trick pictures where you either see the vase or the couple kissing - but for the life of me I couldn't come up with a name.

What's truly embarrassing is that I have always liked Corliss. Not to mention that the nickname Big Nasty has been, over the years, the cause of much jocularity, usually in direct proportion to the number of Coronas consumed.

;)
 
VF21 said:
What's truly embarrassing is that I have always liked Corliss. Not to mention that the nickname Big Nasty has been, over the years, the cause of much jocularity, usually in direct proportion to the number of Coronas consumed.

Considering the path that my gutter brain tends to take, I don't even let myself use that nickname.

Coronas or no, its going someplace that I don't want to follow.
 
Bricklayer said:
Wrong team, wrong system for him unfortunately. Actually there's only the one team one system he ever really did excel in off the bench, next to a three point shooting "power" forward (Robinson) in a platoon arrangement behind a roleplaying SF. For us, just another tweener, no minutes for him at PF, and no shooting/ballhandling/passing as a SF (with limited minutes as well). Given our results thus far, I entirely understand why he could be turned to, but I also entirely understand why he hasn't been so far. With 5 35+ min starters you've got a grand total of maybe 25min at the two positions he plays combined (actually 23), and KT is eating up the bulk of those. Until/unless KT is moved, just no time.

I couldn't disagree more. Corliss has been a 10 point per game bench player for five years. He was effective in a half season in Toronto and a half season in Philly in addition to his three and a half seasons in Detroit. I believe there IS room for a low post player in this system off the bench. The current crop can't play defense, rebound or score. At least with Corliss, they'd be able to score. If there isn't room for him, I think it's a coaching problem, not a player problem.

I do agree with you on one point: there are no minutes for Corliss while Kenny Thomas is in Sacramento. I liked Kenny last year, but I'm extremely disappointed in his play this season. It's like I said before - Corliss should play.
 
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Thomas needs to go.

We need a sparkplug guard coming off the bench just like Bobby.

Martin and Garcia cannot fill those roles yet.
 
NewMonkey said:
I couldn't disagree more. Corliss has been a 10 point per game bench player for five years. He was effective in a half season in Toronto and a half season in Philly in addition to his three and a half seasons in Detroit. I believe there IS room for a low post player in this system off the bench. The current crop can't play defense, rebound or score. At least with Corliss, they'd be able to score. If there isn't room for him, I think it's a coaching problem, not a player problem.

I do agree with you on one point: there are no minutes for Corliss while Kenny Thomas is in Sacramento. I liked Kenny last year, but I'm extremely disappointed in his play this season. It's like I said before - Corliss should play.

I think Corliss has a better work ethic; I think Corliss has a much better idea about team play and making a contribution regardless of how many or few minutes you play; I think Corliss has yet to play a game where he doesn't put forth effort.

All those things said, however, Corliss also has something else - a contract that will be easier to move than the albatross Kenny Thomas brought with him.

:(
 
That coach!

ForlornKing said:
I don't know why Skinner can't play any minutes, and that SAR has to log half his minutes at center.

Yeah, I can't understand that too you know. :confused: Like I said, Skinner is the best Kings blocker/defender today. That Adelman can't use his resources right!:mad:
 
Various points:

1) Corliss flopped in Toronto, rapidly fell out of favor, and was moved. He hit his peak there for a few years under Rick Carlisle in Detroit. Then he had a year under Larry Brown, started out of favor but then came on, played little in the Finals, and was so valued he was trading straight up to Philly for Derrick Coleman. He was ok in Philly, but they wanted no part of his contract, and were encountering the same problems everybody does with Corliss -- scores, but can't defend either forward spot or rebound as a PF. Nor does he really make anybody better around him. He scores, but its just points. Good at it, but not a guy who lifts the play of the entire reserve unit. He was imminently available to anybody who asked.

2) Now he''s in Sacto, but he's a bad fit so long as Kenny is here. There are no minutes. And he can't play SF even when Peja is hurt (as now) because both the OG and PF are also post players and there would be no spacing. Throw in the simple fact that if Corliss is not being fed and allowed to score he's not helping, and you have a real issue when we have so many other scorers. Corliss's perfect role is playing alongside PERIMETER scorers on a team lacking offensive punch. Not playing alongside post players on a team with too many scorers as it is. In our situation a player who excelled at everything BUT scoring would be the far more applicable player.

3) Kenny is in the way of both Corliss and Skinner. But that said Kenny Thomas is a better, more complete, player than Corliss, and he's also critically a MUCH better rebounder, which we desperately need. If Kenny went, I would hope Skinner would be the primary recipient as the superior rebounder/shotblocker, both of which we need.

4) Garcia is actually also a much better fit for our offense. Unsure of how he is going to go, and have been mildly surprised at him displaying a pea brain as often as he has, but his game is far FAR better suited to what we want to run, and in particular with this current squad his shooting (or somebody's) is critical.

5) Re: Bonzi's rebounding. There is no way, NONE, that we EVER thought Bonzi would get 8.5rebs a game. Just none. That's the best guard rebounding in...I've stated before, 20yrs? Not sure (Braynt, McGrady, Kidd have never done it. Jordan never did. Magic last did in '83...). Close though. I was hoping for and would have been ecstatic with 6 a game. 6 is great for a guard, and Bonzi has shown that kind of potential in the past. But now we are stuck utterly dependant on a guy putting ina HUGE career year far FAR above his career numbers, or any numbers that a guard is ever supposed to get. That's incredibly tenuous. If Bonzi does nothng mroe than come back down to average a still great 6 a game for an OG, we are all of a sudden getting destroyed by 5+ a game. We are balancing on a knife.

edit -- found a guard rebounder at Bonzi's level -- Fat Lever averaged 9.3 in both '89 and '90.
 
Bricklayer said:
Various points:

1) Corliss flopped in Toronto, rapidly fell out of favor, and was moved. He hit his peak there for a few years under Rick Carlisle in Detroit. Then he had a year under Larry Brown, started out of favor but then came on, played little in the Finals, and was so valued he was trading straight up to Philly for Derrick Coleman. He was ok in Philly, but they wanted no part of his contract, and were encountering the same problems everybody does with Corliss -- scores, but can't defend either forward spot or rebound as a PF. Nor does he really make anybody better around him. He scores, but its just points. Good at it, but not a guy who lifts the play of the entire reserve unit. He was imminently available to anybody who asked.

I can't speak to how Corliss was viewed in Toronto, but he did shoot 50% and scored 10 points in 22 minutes per game. Toronto also wanted to make room to start Morris Peterson - and he's been their starter ever since. Corliss' output was simlar under Larry Brown as it was under Rick Carlisle. In both instances, we're talking about yours (or their) subjective opinion. The production was there. You're also ignoring intangibles, like toughness and the veteran steadiness and experience Kenny Thomas hasn't shown.

Bricklayer said:
2) Now he's in Sacto, but he's a bad fit so long as Kenny is here. There are no minutes. And he can't play SF even when Peja is hurt (as now) because both the OG and PF are also post players and there would be no spacing. Throw in the simple fact that if Corliss is not being fed and allowed to score he's not helping, and you have a real issue when we have so many other scorers. Corliss's perfect role is playing alongside PERIMETER scorers on a team lacking offensive punch. Not playing alongside post players on a team with too many scorers as it is. In our situation a player who excelled at everything BUT scoring would be the far more applicable player.

I agree with you on Kenny Thomas. You seem to be assuming Corliss has to start. He doesn't. Garcia can start at the three (when Peja is down) as he is now. This solves the OG and PF problem with the starting unit. The team Corliss would be playing on - the bench - can't score a lick and has no one who can play in the post, so he's a good fit on that team. You yourself said we need an impact guy off the bench. The primary problem with that unit (as I see it) is scoring. Corliss can score.

Bricklayer said:
3) Kenny is in the way of both Corliss and Skinner. But that said Kenny Thomas is a better, more complete, player than Corliss, and he's also critically a MUCH better rebounder, which we desperately need. If Kenny went, I would hope Skinner would be the primary recipient as the superior rebounder/shotblocker, both of which we need.

I agree. Kenny is a better player than Corliss. Whether he'll actually PLAY better than Corliss is in serious question. Right now, he isn't. How long do we wait before we declare him a malcontent and move him?

Bricklayer said:
4) Garcia is actually also a much better fit for our offense. Unsure of how he is going to go, and have been mildly surprised at him displaying a pea brain as often as he has, but his game is far FAR better suited to what we want to run, and in particular with this current squad his shooting (or somebody's) is critical.

I agree with you in regards to Garcia and the starting unit. But the simple fact is, this team is getting nothing from its bench. There's a guy riding the pine that can get you something, so he ought to play. If that means a guy who is badly underachieving needs to be moved, so be it.

Bricklayer said:
5) Re: Bonzi's rebounding. There is no way, NONE, that we EVER thought Bonzi would get 8.5rebs a game. Just none. That's the best guard rebounding in...I've stated before, 20yrs? Not sure (Braynt, McGrady, Kidd have never done it. Jordan never did. Magic last did in '83...). Close though. I was hoping for and would have been ecstatic with 6 a game. 6 is great for a guard, and Bonzi has shown that kind of potential in the past. But now we are stuck utterly dependant on a guy putting ina HUGE career year far FAR above his career numbers, or any numbers that a guard is ever supposed to get. That's incredibly tenuous. If Bonzi does nothng mroe than come back down to average a still great 6 a game for an OG, we are all of a sudden getting destroyed by 5+ a game. We are balancing on a knife.

edit -- found a guard rebounder at Bonzi's level -- Fat Lever averaged 9.3 in both '89 and '90.

Bonzi isn't going to put up 8.5 rebounds over the whole season, but I'm not going to argue with his production or toughness. It's badly, badly needed on this team. And Fat Lever was incredibly underrated.
 
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I like what the starters are bringing to the table. They started of slowly but they got more comfortable with each other the longer the season has gone on.

The bench on the other hand, really sucks. They are giving us absolutely nothing. They can't even dream to hold a lead. As piksi said a number of times, we need a 20 point lead before the bench comes in.

Starters are doing fine, the bench sucks. If we had half decent bench, I am sure we would have an extra win or 2 on the board.
 
SacDoug said:
Because Skinner can't pass, and can't score. Skinner is good on defense but on offense, he can only set picks and fight for a rebound. I've seen him blocked a number of times when he was fed the ball right under the basket. The only shots that he makes are uncontested right next to the basket.

Skinner needs to either learn how to pass, shoot or post up to get more minutes.

That's part of the problem with the Sacramento mindset.

Offense before defense at all costs.

Right now Sacramento is fielding 5 guys that can put the ball in the basket with some regularity. 5 GUYS! Right now Sacramento fields 3 guys that couldn't defend an angry paper bag and 2 guys that can defend a paper bag, but know nothing about team defense.

The system RA is deadset on running REQUIRES Miller to be out there with the starting unit, but you have to question any system that relies on this. Miller is playing zero defense. Is not getting any rebounds. All he is doing is sitting at the top of the key and passing to cutters. Relative monkey work. Who cares if he gets 22 assists. He's doing very little to nothing to help create them.

Skinner in the starting lineup helps us rebound. Skinner clogs the gap in the middle defensively.

It's probably the healthy move.

No team needs 5 scorers at the expense of defense.
 
Amen!!!!!!

playmaker0017 said:
That's part of the problem with the Sacramento mindset.

Offense before defense at all costs.

Right now Sacramento is fielding 5 guys that can put the ball in the basket with some regularity. 5 GUYS! Right now Sacramento fields 3 guys that couldn't defend an angry paper bag and 2 guys that can defend a paper bag, but know nothing about team defense.

The system RA is deadset on running REQUIRES Miller to be out there with the starting unit, but you have to question any system that relies on this. Miller is playing zero defense. Is not getting any rebounds. All he is doing is sitting at the top of the key and passing to cutters. Relative monkey work. Who cares if he gets 22 assists. He's doing very little to nothing to help create them.

Skinner in the starting lineup helps us rebound. Skinner clogs the gap in the middle defensively.

It's probably the healthy move.

No team needs 5 scorers at the expense of defense.

That's the post that I want to see!!!!! That's why I want Skinner to start. I don't care if he can't score but I want him to produce BLOCKS and REBOUNDS for his team. And I hope the next draft Petrie should (for the love of God) pick a good PF or C! The only man who can block on the starting lineup is SAR and its not even consistent (only 1 BLK per game).

Edit: And it's more scarier to shoot over Skinner than Ben Wallace. Did you guys saw how Skinner hammered Francisco Elson's shot to the board? Man that was EVIL! :eek:
 
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West_Gunslinger16 said:
That's the post that I want to see!!!!! That's why I want Skinner to start. I don't care if he can't score but I want him to produce BLOCKS and REBOUNDS for his team. And I hope the next draft Petrie should (for the love of God) pick a good PF or C! The only man who can block on the starting lineup is SAR and its not even consistent (only 1 BLK per game).

Edit: And it's more scarier to shoot over Skinner than Ben Wallace. Did you guys saw how Skinner hammered Francisco Elson's shot to the board? Man that was EVIL! :eek:

I don't know about Skinn-man starting (for some games or alternating, sure), but I certainly want to see him play more.

Agreed on next years draft - which I definitely think he will and should. There ARE a bunch of good/solid front-court players in there (where our pick would be, yes).
 
West_Gunslinger16 said:
That's the post that I want to see!!!!! That's why I want Skinner to start. I don't care if he can't score but I want him to produce BLOCKS and REBOUNDS for his team. And I hope the next draft Petrie should (for the love of God) pick a good PF or C! The only man who can block on the starting lineup is SAR and its not even consistent (only 1 BLK per game).

Edit: And it's more scarier to shoot over Skinner than Ben Wallace. Did you guys saw how Skinner hammered Francisco Elson's shot to the board? Man that was EVIL! :eek:

Sorry to shoot you down, but Brian Skinner is NOT the next great PF/C. Yes, he has - in the past - blocked some shots, but as he himself said the night of THE block against Shawn Marion, the very next play he had a stupid turnover.

Scarier to shoot over Skinner than Ben Wallace? I don't think so...and I actually like Skinner a lot.

Let's be real. Skinner can get some blocks and rebounds but unless you can convert those possessions into something over than blown opportunities it's still a lost cause.

Starting Skinner would remove Miller from the court and, like it or not, we NEED Brad Miller because he's showing more and more he can run the offense through the high post. Skinner couldn't do that any more than I can fly...
 
VF21 said:
Sorry to shoot you down, but Brian Skinner is NOT the next great PF/C. Yes, he has - in the past - blocked some shots, but as he himself said the night of THE block against Shawn Marion, the very next play he had a stupid turnover.

Scarier to shoot over Skinner than Ben Wallace? I don't think so...and I actually like Skinner a lot.

Let's be real. Skinner can get some blocks and rebounds but unless you can convert those possessions into something over than blown opportunities it's still a lost cause.

Starting Skinner would remove Miller from the court and, like it or not, we NEED Brad Miller because he's showing more and more he can run the offense through the high post. Skinner couldn't do that any more than I can fly...

What?!?! :eek: You would actually let the starting 5 without atleast 1 (one) good defender? Yeah, I know the points will go down but if the defender is good he won't let the other team shoot good FG right? With
a starting 5 concentrated in offense, we cannot beat the best teams in the league. Not to mention that it's not Miller that is getting blamed for the bad defense (the centerpoint of defense of every team in the league - Center). Peja and Bibby was even blamed for the bad defense. But atleast I can see the how they defend and I say they're better when putting a hand on a face.
 
West_Gunslinger16 said:
What?!?! :eek: You would actually let the starting 5 without atleast 1 (one) good defender? Yeah, I know the points will go down but if the defender is good he won't let the other team shoot good FG right? With
a starting 5 concentrated in offense, we cannot beat the best teams in the league. Not to mention that it's not Miller that is getting blamed for the bad defense (the centerpoint of defense of every team in the league - Center). Peja and Bibby was even blamed for the bad defense. But atleast I can see the how they defend and I say they're better when putting a hand on a face.

With the guys on the Kings' bench, I wouldn't replace any of the starting five with one of the more "defensive minded" players, either. If Ben Wallace was on the bench, sure, Miller could take a seat. Not for Brian Skinner.
 
West_Gunslinger16 said:
What?!?! :eek: You would actually let the starting 5 without atleast 1 (one) good defender? Yeah, I know the points will go down but if the defender is good he won't let the other team shoot good FG right? With
a starting 5 concentrated in offense, we cannot beat the best teams in the league. Not to mention that it's not Miller that is getting blamed for the bad defense (the centerpoint of defense of every team in the league - Center). Peja and Bibby was even blamed for the bad defense. But atleast I can see the how they defend and I say they're better when putting a hand on a face.

Brian Skinner is NOT the answer to our defensive woes. He is NOT a defensive juggernaut and I simply do not see him becoming one in the future.

I'm not even going to address Peja in this because it's totally irrelevant.
 
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