Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
Yeah, you're probably right.I'm not at all certain you should single Martin out in this situation.
After 1 and half season how do you view the Ron-Peja trade?
- Thread starter TheJoker
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Vlade4GM
All-Star
I'm just responding to your claim that he listened to Adelman because he respected him. If that's the case then what if we were to get a young coach that was a good coach, but Artest didn't respect him? You can't give a B player like Artest that much control.
Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
Thats why you have to talk to your players about the candidates before you hire them...I think that they deserve at least that much of a say in who THEIR next coach is, and who they're going to be playing at least 82 games for.
When the Artest deal went down, Adelman was the coach. I'm reasonably sure one of the reasons Petrie pulled the trigger on the deal was because of the type of coach Rick Adelman is. His ability to work with problem players was well known...
If the team is going to keep Artest, it would be delusional NOT to figure in the Artest/coach dynamic as part of the equation.
If the team is going to keep Artest, it would be delusional NOT to figure in the Artest/coach dynamic as part of the equation.
Gotta disagree here. You don't let the inmates run the asylum. You don't let the convicts select the warden.
Players are transitory; coaches are generally around for a longer period of time. If anything, I would think you'd try to find players that are good AND complement the strengths of a particular coach, not the other way around.
Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
I'm glad I'm not the only one that realizes this.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Agreed, but say if you had a candidate you really liked but Artest didn't do you not get him out of fear that Artest just simply won't listen to him? He can have his opinion be heard, but in the end he should still do what the coach says. He can't be the one deciding who the coach is.
Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
I thought about this, too...and I think that that's why you have to be very thorough in your decision. No, Artest(or any other single player)should be given that sort of power. But I think it does matter that Ron and coach getting along is a big priority. It worked with Adelman...so that's proof that Artest CAN play for the coach and not just himself, and keep his wits in order at the same time.
Like others are saying we did get a upgrade with the trade as far as what the player is capable of doing and what they have done. I haven't been a big time Peja fan do to his softness, not being able to create his own shot, his reluctance to grab rebounds even with his height of 6' 10" and his knack to disapear in games when he should be rising the occasion like we would have hoped. The FO was looking to have him as the core, but that was a mistake, he wasn't a leader.
Ron on the other hand is a leader, but he isn't a Kobie or Lebron and I feel he's learned and listened to critism and isn't as selfish as he was earlier in the year. His off the court and in the locker room behavior is disturbing. He really cannot help himself most of the time I believe. He really needs a 24/7 mentor. Is that possible in a NBA setting? Can we write that into a contract?
He definately has skills and has been his worst enemy as far as how much $ and trouble he has caused himself and the tarnish on his career. Too bad that a great NBA talent will need a footnote to say what a troubled player he was. But Ron just plays and is a hard nosed player and is fanatical about winning which is awesome, now if only we could control his impulsiveness! I think a special Kool Aid for Ron along with the 24/7 mentor would do the trick! I would hate to see Ron go, I really like the guy!
On that note I really liked Bonzi together and was really sad to see him make the boneheaded decision with his agent to not take the $ we offered him. I'm very happy KMart has stepped up and I love his bright future, but I wish we could have kept Bonzi and had him off the bench, on the flip side Salmons has been very valueable to us with his versatility.
Sorry to rant, I say keep Artest, we should not try to get pennies on the dollar for him, also his contract is small for what he brings in the form of talent, now we just need to slip him some meds to keep him acting like a good boy!
Ron on the other hand is a leader, but he isn't a Kobie or Lebron and I feel he's learned and listened to critism and isn't as selfish as he was earlier in the year. His off the court and in the locker room behavior is disturbing. He really cannot help himself most of the time I believe. He really needs a 24/7 mentor. Is that possible in a NBA setting? Can we write that into a contract?
He definately has skills and has been his worst enemy as far as how much $ and trouble he has caused himself and the tarnish on his career. Too bad that a great NBA talent will need a footnote to say what a troubled player he was. But Ron just plays and is a hard nosed player and is fanatical about winning which is awesome, now if only we could control his impulsiveness! I think a special Kool Aid for Ron along with the 24/7 mentor would do the trick! I would hate to see Ron go, I really like the guy!
On that note I really liked Bonzi together and was really sad to see him make the boneheaded decision with his agent to not take the $ we offered him. I'm very happy KMart has stepped up and I love his bright future, but I wish we could have kept Bonzi and had him off the bench, on the flip side Salmons has been very valueable to us with his versatility.
Sorry to rant, I say keep Artest, we should not try to get pennies on the dollar for him, also his contract is small for what he brings in the form of talent, now we just need to slip him some meds to keep him acting like a good boy!
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Artest isn't worth the effort IMO and that's where I think we disagree.
Ron does approach the realm of bending a bit and letting him lead, but not play 1 on 1 ball and sub himself in/out. That is a bit much. Also to have Ron succeed, we need the right coach, RA was a whole lot better then Muss who is a total disaster at controlling the team and working with what he has. While RA was quiet in comparison to Muss, he did a great job, much better then people want to give him credit for. The fact is there are very few coaches with great history and RA was one of them with a great winning record...not going all the way, but making repeated playoff appearances.
Can we just beg RA to come back? Muss can be our assistant coach with his analysis that RA can use or tell him to shove it, "that doesn't work in the real world kid"!
There aren't many things in the NBA that are impossible but I'm betting this is pretty close. I cannot even begin to imagine a scenario whereby the Maloofs could kiss enough posterior to undo or overcome the whole scenario at the end of last season.
Muss can be our assistant coach with his analysis that RA can use or tell him to shove it, "that doesn't work in the real world kid"!
If they do get rid of Musselman, I strongly suspect his next job will be in the college ranks. Wasn't UCSD interested in him?
Circa_1985_Fan
All-Star
Hey, maybe Sac State would be interested...Jenkins is on his last leg with us, he's a horrible coach.
Peja
Bench
When you take a look at the result,Artest did make playoffs last year even though the team was in pretty bad situation when he arrived.
On the other hand this season we got nothing and we will still have roster with questionable quality next year so...
I think we could've done better than Artest,but ftw GO KINGS!
On the other hand this season we got nothing and we will still have roster with questionable quality next year so...
I think we could've done better than Artest,but ftw GO KINGS!
Quick thread jack; the more I think about, the more I believe that was a VERY calculated amount offered by Petrie. Enough to make the fans think the front office made the effort, but guaranteed to be turned down by Bonzi and his agent. They knew what Martin could do.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Be the leading scorer on a 30-41 team?
It looks far better for Geoff to claim he tried, and just failed due to the irrationality of the other sides(s), than to say this was all planned. If it was all planned, then he's an idiot.
Thing is Bonzi came into Houston extremely overweight and really pissed off their coach and has had a garbage season. Stick Martin on that team and they get another 5 wins.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I'm well aware of Bonzi's season -- its also nearly completely irrelevant to what would have happened had things turned out otherwise. From the very beginning it was an obvious response/result of the misfire in free agency.
And as I mentioned...no make that repeatedly explained, in the early season, it was never about Kevin vs. Bonzi. It was about Kevin alone vs. Kevin and Bonzi together. With otherwise virtually the same team, we are 10 games worse this season with just the one. Oh, and a huge factor in that worseness is our embarrassing "effort" on the glass. Precisely what the missing player brought to the table in spades.
I totally agree that RA is not coming back and the Maloofs aren't the types to kiss "posterior" to beg RA to come back. Especially after they got rid of him on a behavior flaw of not being more outgoing and being their buddy. Muss fits very well into this, but the guy isn't cutting it here, he could say he doesn't have the team to be the defensive beast they expect, but that's not the 1/2 of it, the players just flat out not respect him and boldly ignor/defy him.
Muss would be lucky to get a high school job at this point. O.k. I know this is harsh, I could see a college gig. Basicly anyone who has coached at all in the NBA could coach in the the college ranks. Being in the big leagues, especially the head coach should help, plus Muss can just talk his way through an interview/speech/other spontaneous BS like Bill Clinton!
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I see that, and they did have high hopes for KMart, but he for his 1st year starting full time, he is amazing quite a few people other then our team and fans. It's nice to see such a good progression from a good kid selected late in the 1st round on a otherwise very disappointing season.
Padrino
All-Star
unlikely...
i agree that it was a very calculated amount, though. at the time, it didn't feel like too much to pay bonzi. and it also wasn't too little considering the market value of bonzi wells, again, at the time. it was foolish of bonzi's agent to turn down the best offer he'd gotten. and, in theory, when he didn't bite, then martin would fill his slot, and it wouldn't be a total loss. martin has done very well, and yes, they knew what they had with him, but they were still trying to "compete." and we certainly would have been more competitive this season with a healthy bonzi wells. in hindsight, it doesn't really matter, cuz we need to blow the whole thing up anyway, but i'm quite certain the kings front office didn't put quite that much thought into how they'd attempt to re-sign bonzi wells. they just set a price cap, extended their offer, and refused to back down. it was the right thing to do.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
We won't know until Petrie trades Artest. If Petrie would have traded Artest this past off-season, he could have gotten great value for him, converting the Peja trade into a great trade. But, he waited until Artest did what Artest does, and that was very, very bad. Now, Artest seems to be on the wagon. Is that going to be enough to seduce/sucker some GM into giving us good value? Stay tuned....
Vlade4GM
All-Star
I really just can't believe the lack of foresight and pretty much just lack of intelligence in the moves/non-moves over the last two-three years. It's just baffling how we could've gone from such a great team, to a team with a bunch of dolts running it. I mean they just totally got suckered into the fantasy of Ron Artest. Trade for Ron Artest ok, but you don't make him your future. You don't give Artest that much responsibility because you know damn well what he's going to do with it. Not knowing is just straight up naive. The only explanation I can see for all this is VF's explanation that they're trying to hold on desperately to fans and ticket sales. I'm one who believes fans would enjoy a true rebuilding process and a true team effort rather than this psychotic patchjob we got going for us right now.
It wasn't Petrie's decision to trade for Artest, but the Maloofs going over his head and pursuing Ron even after they heard that he didn't want to come to Sac and they didn't let up and flew to New York to talk to him personally.
The Maloofs also made it very clear that they wanted a outgoing coach and wanted to rid themselves of RA who Petrie has had a long history with, not only with the Kings, but the team to the North as well. If the Maloofs keep going over Petrie and/or challenge him then he will walk and probably end up in Portland again, quite possibly with RA there as well.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
The "Vision Thing"
Very good post, especially, "more importantly it needs to be all apart of one consistent vision for the future of this team." That's what I'm waiting to see - "the vision thing." Knowing Petrie, he's not going to articulate the vision. We will have to infer his vision from his actions in the offseason. The key item I will be watching to deduce his vision is whether he replaces mediocre to good vets with mediocre to good vets, rather than for younger talent that is raw and not fully tapped. If that's the case, then that will tell me that Petrie and the Maloofs are satisfied to be able to get into a 7th or 8th slot with the quick playoff exit for as long as they can, rather than rebuilding this team with youth and really try to acquire the young talent necessary to have the potential for a championship run down the line.
Very good post, especially, "more importantly it needs to be all apart of one consistent vision for the future of this team." That's what I'm waiting to see - "the vision thing." Knowing Petrie, he's not going to articulate the vision. We will have to infer his vision from his actions in the offseason. The key item I will be watching to deduce his vision is whether he replaces mediocre to good vets with mediocre to good vets, rather than for younger talent that is raw and not fully tapped. If that's the case, then that will tell me that Petrie and the Maloofs are satisfied to be able to get into a 7th or 8th slot with the quick playoff exit for as long as they can, rather than rebuilding this team with youth and really try to acquire the young talent necessary to have the potential for a championship run down the line.
I don't buy that Artest is the All-Star when he wantes to be and on the right team with the right coach, the guy could be amazing. On this team with no identity and franchise guy and also with a lame duck, short non-NBA coach with little NBA coaching experience and who yells at his players and shows them never ending Power Point presentations and gives them spiked Kool Aid....Artest predictably is not the player he can be.
On a team like SA or Miami, he would have a great chance to be a unbelievable player. Having Shaq, Mourning, and Wade along with a good dynamic coach with great history of winning in Riley along with supporting role players and I don't see a better team for Ron. He would be good on SA as well, but Bruce Bowen is there defensive stopper, the guy is 36 and Ron is like 10 years younger so I could see them wanting him and Pop would definately be the zen master.
Please don't send him to the Lakers though, that's all I ask...Kobie and him would be a scary pair along with Odom!
Brick, you're the pied piper of the "Rebuild Now" crew, but you're still grousing about not signing Bonzi?!? Come on dude, which is it? Floating around at the 7-8 spot for the next 4 years or building through youth? It was absolutely Kevin vs. Bonzi. Everbody on here was wailing and gnashing their teeth when Bonzi left except for a very few (including myself) who knew Kevin would fill the gap. If Bonzi had signed the eventual outcome would have either been Kevin leaving at the end of his rookie deal or Bonzi going off the deep-end with a guaranteed contract in his hip pocket.
And if we are counting on an undersized SG for rebounds then the team as a whole is a lost cause anyway. Seriously, if you NEED your 2 guard to pull down 8 boards a game then your roster is seriously out of whack and should be blown up anyway.
Did you want to sign Tim Thomas also because of his nice little display in Phoenix? Maybe we should sign this year's version of Bonzi/Thomas, Rashard Lewis?
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
a) I'm the "pied piper" specifically because we did not resign Bonzi and follow the only realistic path toward even pretend contention availabile to us. That remotely realistic path being resign Bonzi, draft a young big, and make a trade of one of the other for a more defenisve minded set. Oh yeah, and keep the coach. That was the ONLY path toward non-disaster. Bump and thump at SF/OG rotating with a flyer. More defenders to join the banging duo inside.
b) but we didn't follow it, and we ALSO did not go into rebuilding mode. Hence the pied piper. We absolutely 100% unquestionably were trying to win, and deluded enough to think we were going to win. And frankly, Kevin, alone, isn't helping us to win. having anice breakout season, and now that we should be heading into a rebuild, a piece to keep. But that wasn;t what we were trying to do. We were trying to win. And we haven't. And hence what we did was by defintion a failure. And if we were banking on Kevin carrying us without serious support, that was by definition a failure. And if we were counting on Kevin making up for the loss on Bonzi on the boards, that was by definition a failure. And so, we failed to acheive what we wanted to acheive and have a mess instead. If this was, as you imply, some sort of sneaky little underhanded plan, then it was an idiotic one that has damaged this franchise.
c) not resigning Bonzi was fine...if we were going to rebuild. Not resigning Bonzi and thinking you were going to be good enough to contend was sheer stupidity.
BTW:
a) Bonzi is undersized for a SG the way Shaq is undersized at center
b) Bonzi turned in a hell of a lunchpail regular season long before he showed just what he could mean in the playoffs
c) Bonzi losing it, Kevin leaving etc. is sheer speculation, and all things that could have been dealt with when the time came.
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Brick, seriously, if your level of competitiveness hinges on Bonzi then you are not a very good team. To your second main point, I don't think that Petrie thought we were going to be competitive this year. I really don't. He may or may not have had such delusions last year with Miller/Bibby/Peja, but I doubt that too. Everything has been pointing towards a slow rebuild with this offseason as the target. Only it appears the Maloofs keep interfering. I mean, Petrie and Bryan Colangelo are the only two GMs in the NBA that I think actually have long-term plans and know how to evaluate talent/price talent. We are going to see a whirlwind of activity this offseason.
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