A pretty good video summary of Thomas Robinson's skills and weaknesses
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You are about to go on my ignore list. You have no idea what the hell your talking about. I've seen Robinson play over 40 times in the last two years. I talked about him two years ago when he played behind the Morris twins. He's a very good on the ball defender, and he's improved every year. You'd find something wrong with Jesus Christ if we drafted him.
Christ has lots of HOLES in his game?
seriously though, I don't take saying Landry is a better finisher as a knock on Thomas. Landry was pretty damn good at finishing when he got the ball,under the rim. It was his best skill.
Thomas Robinson's work ethic will help our team far more than his skills ever would. We are a much better team with him.
seriously though, I don't take saying Landry is a better finisher as a knock on Thomas. Landry was pretty damn good at finishing when he got the ball,under the rim. It was his best skill.
Thomas Robinson's work ethic will help our team far more than his skills ever would. We are a much better team with him.
I am pretty certain Thomas Robinson can take Terrence Jones to school. The only chance Jones has against Robinson is if he has Anthony Davis there backing him up and providing help defense. I'm pretty sure that's what happen. I didn't know what game you watched. But in the championship game, Robinson didn't have any problems against that NBA frontline of Davis and Jones.
Minor point, but Carl Landry is an extremely efficient finisher at the rim. finishes over it. In his two years here he was at 70% the first half year and 75% the second half year. TRob won't be able to beat that by much. Even Lebron and Chandler are only at 75. Dwight was at 74.
As for the Haslem defense, yes, or maybe at least. It would be my hope too. To play defense like that at Haslem's size (and yes, Haslem is a bit undersized, and several inches shorter than most of the great center wingmen -- Oakley, Brown, the Davises, Green, Rambis etc.) you have to be a tough s.o.b. If you presented TRob to me with any other apparent attitude I would flat out say no way. Most of the PFs his height around the league are in fact poor defenders -- Landry and Love and Boozer oh my. But Haslem looms as a nice comparison/hope. And if we draft a Haslem with more offensive punch that is in the realm of the tradition of the great center wingman.
Since the Haslem character is pretty much an archetype the difficulty really lies with DeMarcus more than anything else. That Haslem wingman character, with an extra inch or two, pops up again and again throughout great center history. BUT, and here we go with this again, he's the perfect complement to a big SHOTBLOCKING center. The center closes the lane. The Haslem character takes a tough man defense matchup, and watches the center's back. On the rare occasion the great center can't close the lane himself, then the Haslem character is replaced by a shotblocking variety. Its basically an absolute 100% of the time dynamic, and I'll list all the great center/wingman pairs of the last 30 years below (my 70s knowledge is not as clean, and they only started counting blocks in '72 I think it was).
Kareem (shotblocker) + Rambis
Kareem (shotblocker) + Green
Moses (shotblocker) + Jones
Hakeem (shotblocker) + Sampson (shotblocker)
Hakeem (shotblocker) + Thorpe
Hakeem (shotblocker) + Horry
Daugherty + Nance (shotblocker)
Admiral (shotblocker) + Cummings
Admiral (shotblocker) + Rodman
Admiral (shotblocker) + Duncan (shotblocker)
Ewing (shotblocker) + Oakley
Smits + Davis (shotblocker)
Mourning (shotblocker) + Brown
Shaq (shotblocker) + Grant
Shaq (shotblocker) + Horry
Shaq (shotblocker) + Haslem
Yao (shotblocker) + junk
Howard (shotblocker) + Lewis
Outside of the Twin towers sets where BOTH guys are shotblockers, in every single pairing one guy blocks the shots, and then you have the wingman. The Haslem class wingman popping up again and again and again, and being the most successful. The couple times that greatish (Smits is a bit of a stretch but he was an offensive force) centers (Daugherty, Smits) couldn't close the middle themselves, PFs who could were found to support them. My point in this would be thaty I don't think its impossible that TRob could ride the Haslem train, and IF we had the right type of great center, who came with shotblocking included, then that would be nearly ideal. TRob is a little small, but right now there aren't many McHale's runnig around able to fully exploit that. Our difficulty is that if we're lucky we may have just drafted the right type of wingman for the wrong type of center. Assuming for a moment that TRob can meet the Haslem arcehtype (possible), and Cousins is the great center (nearly guaranteed) we now have to resort to patching what's missing there from the SF spot (very tough, hence AK47 love again) or backup PF spot (which only works if he gets enough minutes, and where JT, a very good thrid big, is in the way).
As for the Haslem defense, yes, or maybe at least. It would be my hope too. To play defense like that at Haslem's size (and yes, Haslem is a bit undersized, and several inches shorter than most of the great center wingmen -- Oakley, Brown, the Davises, Green, Rambis etc.) you have to be a tough s.o.b. If you presented TRob to me with any other apparent attitude I would flat out say no way. Most of the PFs his height around the league are in fact poor defenders -- Landry and Love and Boozer oh my. But Haslem looms as a nice comparison/hope. And if we draft a Haslem with more offensive punch that is in the realm of the tradition of the great center wingman.
Since the Haslem character is pretty much an archetype the difficulty really lies with DeMarcus more than anything else. That Haslem wingman character, with an extra inch or two, pops up again and again throughout great center history. BUT, and here we go with this again, he's the perfect complement to a big SHOTBLOCKING center. The center closes the lane. The Haslem character takes a tough man defense matchup, and watches the center's back. On the rare occasion the great center can't close the lane himself, then the Haslem character is replaced by a shotblocking variety. Its basically an absolute 100% of the time dynamic, and I'll list all the great center/wingman pairs of the last 30 years below (my 70s knowledge is not as clean, and they only started counting blocks in '72 I think it was).
Kareem (shotblocker) + Rambis
Kareem (shotblocker) + Green
Moses (shotblocker) + Jones
Hakeem (shotblocker) + Sampson (shotblocker)
Hakeem (shotblocker) + Thorpe
Hakeem (shotblocker) + Horry
Daugherty + Nance (shotblocker)
Admiral (shotblocker) + Cummings
Admiral (shotblocker) + Rodman
Admiral (shotblocker) + Duncan (shotblocker)
Ewing (shotblocker) + Oakley
Smits + Davis (shotblocker)
Mourning (shotblocker) + Brown
Shaq (shotblocker) + Grant
Shaq (shotblocker) + Horry
Shaq (shotblocker) + Haslem
Yao (shotblocker) + junk
Howard (shotblocker) + Lewis
Outside of the Twin towers sets where BOTH guys are shotblockers, in every single pairing one guy blocks the shots, and then you have the wingman. The Haslem class wingman popping up again and again and again, and being the most successful. The couple times that greatish (Smits is a bit of a stretch but he was an offensive force) centers (Daugherty, Smits) couldn't close the middle themselves, PFs who could were found to support them. My point in this would be thaty I don't think its impossible that TRob could ride the Haslem train, and IF we had the right type of great center, who came with shotblocking included, then that would be nearly ideal. TRob is a little small, but right now there aren't many McHale's runnig around able to fully exploit that. Our difficulty is that if we're lucky we may have just drafted the right type of wingman for the wrong type of center. Assuming for a moment that TRob can meet the Haslem arcehtype (possible), and Cousins is the great center (nearly guaranteed) we now have to resort to patching what's missing there from the SF spot (very tough, hence AK47 love again) or backup PF spot (which only works if he gets enough minutes, and where JT, a very good thrid big, is in the way).
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I watched the championship game. Davis embarrassed him. Robinson got 17 rebounds, and I haven't said anything about his rebounding, but he shot 6-17. He threw up brick after brick. The only shot he got over them was his right handed hook, which is his only reliable post shot right now.
Anyway, I'll show you what I saw in a video since y'all are doubting.
Anyway, I'll show you what I saw in a video since y'all are doubting.
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Give it a rest dude. I don't think I've seen even one person say we should have taken Drummond or Henson over Robinson (maybe people said they'd be a better fit, which is undoubtedly true). The discussion has moved on to team needs, and whether you want to face facts or not, we still haven't addressed needs. I'm a big Robinson fan - there is nothing not to like about him. He's just not a perfect fit. Doesn't mean I would have taken someone else over him.
You need to chillax. Stop taking everything personally. Our defense last year was pathetic. We need to address it. That's not a criticism of Robinson.
So you don't judge a player by high school and college performance? That makes no sense. And you are trying to compare some very basic (not even advanced) statistics of a sophomore to a freshman. If you compare both of their freshman stats, MKG beats Barton. But with Drummond we're not comparing him to someone with similar stats and a worse physical profile and then asking who will be better in the pros. We are talking about him far under performing at multiple levels and basically needing to learn how to play basketball.
It very rarely happens, especially for players like Drummond who appear to have questionable work ethics. The closest I can remember to a similar player working out well would be Bynum. And he landed in the perfect situation for a player like himself. He landed on a playoff had veteran teammates who would not let him get away with slacking off, he had a Hall of Fame coach and he was mentored by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. If Drummond went to a franchise like the Spurs, I would feel much better about his odds of developing. We'll see how it plays out on the Pistons.
As for Millsap v Jordan, ok, so the Clippers would want a center back in the deal. He would only need to be capable of playing the 22mpg they gave Jordan in the playoffs. Almost every team in the league would have taken Millsap last year. He played at an all star level. Jordan has his moments, but still lacks a good amount of basketball IQ, hence he wound up sitting for Kenyon Martin and Reggie Evans in much of the playoffs. Millsap was a much more versatile offensive player and even had a higher defensive win score and a higher gap between his team and his personal defensive rating (though I take both of those stats with a heaping grain of salt).
As for him playing SF, I don't see what it has to do with this discussion. And while I don't give a lot of credence to an article saying Millsap played 100 minutes of SF in very specific match ups (very small sample size), I also don't know how Milsapp's ability to be versatile and a lock down defender at multiple positions makes him less valuable.
And yes, for last season, I still think the Clippers would have taken Milsapp in a millisecond. The only reason they don't is the fit between Griffin and him. But even then, Millsap was simply a much better player.
It very rarely happens, especially for players like Drummond who appear to have questionable work ethics. The closest I can remember to a similar player working out well would be Bynum. And he landed in the perfect situation for a player like himself. He landed on a playoff had veteran teammates who would not let him get away with slacking off, he had a Hall of Fame coach and he was mentored by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. If Drummond went to a franchise like the Spurs, I would feel much better about his odds of developing. We'll see how it plays out on the Pistons.
As for Millsap v Jordan, ok, so the Clippers would want a center back in the deal. He would only need to be capable of playing the 22mpg they gave Jordan in the playoffs. Almost every team in the league would have taken Millsap last year. He played at an all star level. Jordan has his moments, but still lacks a good amount of basketball IQ, hence he wound up sitting for Kenyon Martin and Reggie Evans in much of the playoffs. Millsap was a much more versatile offensive player and even had a higher defensive win score and a higher gap between his team and his personal defensive rating (though I take both of those stats with a heaping grain of salt).
As for him playing SF, I don't see what it has to do with this discussion. And while I don't give a lot of credence to an article saying Millsap played 100 minutes of SF in very specific match ups (very small sample size), I also don't know how Milsapp's ability to be versatile and a lock down defender at multiple positions makes him less valuable.
And yes, for last season, I still think the Clippers would have taken Milsapp in a millisecond. The only reason they don't is the fit between Griffin and him. But even then, Millsap was simply a much better player.
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Two different issues. The first one I think is a fair point. Drummond supposedly played some decent man D against college kids. Typically, I put much more stock into games where the prospects play against NBA caliber players. Unfortunately, the only NBA caliber center I could find looking at the game log was similarly raw Fab Melo. They both put up pretty good stat lines against each other, so I have little idea what that means. It looks like he also may have matched up with Royce White and White had a fantastic game, but considering he won't be guarding players like White in the NBA, I don't really think it would be fair to penalize him for that. I wish he had gone up against Davis, Zeller and Sullinger a couple of times. Will be interesting to see how it all translates. Don't know how that relates to Drummond being a long way from being a good player and Robinson having a far more polished player.
And I can understand the fit issue with Griffin. Although, late in the regular season and in the playoffs, the Clippers played Kenyon Martin & Reggie Evans a combined 40 minutes per game because they wanted their basketball IQs in the game. I think they would have loved to give 33-36 of those minutes to Millsap.
And I can understand the fit issue with Griffin. Although, late in the regular season and in the playoffs, the Clippers played Kenyon Martin & Reggie Evans a combined 40 minutes per game because they wanted their basketball IQs in the game. I think they would have loved to give 33-36 of those minutes to Millsap.
Yeah...but...I mean, he was NOT the main shot creater there until his very final season. And the guys he was behind the previous years -- the Morris brothers, both had no problem developing quality jumpers in the same featured role.
I do, btw, think his jumper should be fine over time. Maybe not automatic, but fine. But I'm not sure you can say he jsut never worked on it because he was the main creater, when he was just a bench guy until last year. Lots of physical freaks are slow to develop jumpers though. Its a classic scenario even amongst top players (maybe especially amongst top players since its always been so easy for them). When you can just jump over everybody at lower levels, why work on that jumper?
I do, btw, think his jumper should be fine over time. Maybe not automatic, but fine. But I'm not sure you can say he jsut never worked on it because he was the main creater, when he was just a bench guy until last year. Lots of physical freaks are slow to develop jumpers though. Its a classic scenario even amongst top players (maybe especially amongst top players since its always been so easy for them). When you can just jump over everybody at lower levels, why work on that jumper?
I never said college performance shouldn't be the only determinant, it's college STATS!!! And it should be one consideration in a large body of work. NOT the ONLY judge of a player like you said.
Yes, Drummond under performed at the college, that is no reason to write him off. It is why STATS may not tell the whole story of a player, because when you see him in action, he looks like the a freak Frankenstein who was build to dominate basketball.
"Rarely happens" not equal "never happens." Yes, we shall see how Drummond fares in Detroit. That, actually, is the right approach. The wrong approach is to completely write him off like you and Jamal wanted to do.
Your last sentence basically refuted your earlier posts. Yes, the Clipper will keep Jordan over taking Millsap because of fit. Yes, absolutely, and that's our point - Clips prefers Jordan to Millsap because Jordan helps them win more games! Nobody ever said that Millsap isn't a better player than Jordan, but Jordan FITS the Clippers. Just like the big man who FITS next to Cousins is a tall, athletic shot-blocking dude (aka Not Thomas Robinson). And that is our point, and your last sentence basically agreed with us.
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I think there should be more pressure on Cousins to be the shot-blocker/defensive anchor. He has the length, the strength. If he loses more fat, he'll be more mobile and will jump higher. If Cousins realizes his defensive potential, then a taller Paul Millsap is a great fit next to him. I think that's what Petrie is hoping for.
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Yes, stats are only part of the story. But tepid high school and college stats are a bad sign. Not that Drummond can never be successful, but you are basically teaching him to play basketball. And I did not see any post where I "completely write him off." All I have ever said about Drummond is that he is a high ceiling, low probability player. 10-20% chance you turn him into Bynum, but a good chance that either he's another Stromile Swift - who puts up some stats, but has a low bball IQ, little passion for the game and never really helps a basketball team - or he develops into a useful player for his second or third team. I think his odds are much better on a well run team. I posted much more on another Kings board this draft season, but was very clear over there, I would not have minded if we drafted Drummond to swing for the fences, but was very concerned that an organization as dysfunctional as ours would struggle to develop a player who wasn't very self-motivated.
Lol. No, me saying they could consider fit next to Griffin does not mean I have agreed with either of your points. First, the Clippers situation is very different than ours. Griffin is exclusively a PF and he plays 36mpg, so there are 12mpg left for another PF. Cousins is best as a center, so putting a PF like Robinson next to him works just fine. As for the Clippers this season, if they had played Jordan heavily at the end of the season and in the playoffs, I would be inclined to agree with you. However, considering they played the Kenyon Martin/Reggie Evans pu pu platter for 40mpg with Griffin, I think they would have preferred to have Milsapp on their roster for last season.
And I think his next goal should be to find a shot blocker to bring off of the bench. If our team becomes better at team defense, we don't need Cousins or Robinson to block 2 shots a game. But having an anchor we can bring in off the bench would be highly beneficial. Would love for Whiteside to get there, but I am dubious.
My goodness you know how to drive someone insane. It's all about FIT! What part of that do you not understand? If DeAndre Jordan does not have more value to the Clippers than Paul Millsap would, why is Jordan making more money than Millsap? If you were a GM and you look around the league and see that Paul Millsap is earning 7mil, would you offer a guy who you value less than him 10mil?
And where is anyone even saying that we should have drafted Henson/Drummond over Robinson?
Your lack of understanding of what anybody is even saying is making you the idiot. There's absolutely ZERO people here rooting for us to go and sign Javale McGee to a 10million contract just because he blocks shots.
And where is anyone even saying that we should have drafted Henson/Drummond over Robinson?
Your lack of understanding of what anybody is even saying is making you the idiot. There's absolutely ZERO people here rooting for us to go and sign Javale McGee to a 10million contract just because he blocks shots.
To be fair, big men prices have always been high, or as some would say inflated! Its just that a lot of fans never paid attention to them. Dalembert re-signed with the 76ers for $64 million over 6 years. Marcus Camby re-signed with Nuggets for $65 million over 6 years and then after that signed a 2 year, $18 million deal as a 35 year old.
Then there also have the cases of very average big men signing on for massive contracts because they were tall and could block a shot or 2. Dan Gadzuric, 6 year, $36 million deal, Jerome James and $30 million over 5 years, Joel Pryzbilla and $32 million over 5 years etc etc...
Big man have always come at a premium. Even the **** ones cost you Marcus Thornton type money. That is why if you you have a franchise big men and he also happens to be a shot blocker and interior defender, then you have it made because in today's market, even at max money, he is underpaid because it will set you back $10 million per season just to get a big defensive player to man the middle and block shots.
Then there also have the cases of very average big men signing on for massive contracts because they were tall and could block a shot or 2. Dan Gadzuric, 6 year, $36 million deal, Jerome James and $30 million over 5 years, Joel Pryzbilla and $32 million over 5 years etc etc...
Big man have always come at a premium. Even the **** ones cost you Marcus Thornton type money. That is why if you you have a franchise big men and he also happens to be a shot blocker and interior defender, then you have it made because in today's market, even at max money, he is underpaid because it will set you back $10 million per season just to get a big defensive player to man the middle and block shots.
Tepid high school stats? I'm continually confused by your standards. Drummond's "tepid" high school stats read something like 16 rebs, 7 blocks, 4.5 steals, to go along with around 20 pts a game. In what planet is that a "tepid" stats, even for high school?
Right, Drummond has a 10-20% chance of turning into Bynum; because, you know, 25-30% would be too unreasonable. LOL. You know how ridiculous you sound when you throw out these kind of "stats"? I don't know why you keep throwing out Bynum (a good offensive player), who is in no way similar to the ceiling of Drummond (a great defensive player). It also shows you don't get our points - we need defensive shot blocker and could care less about the offensive side of things of Drummond. The Stromile Swift comparison is another strange one - Swift busted because he was too small to play center (his natural position) in addition to his low bbIQ, but mainly because he was just too small (6'9, 220 pounds). Drummond is 6'11 and 280 pounds.
Oh boy, just as I thought you were on the right track, then you said what you said....
You do know that the Martin/Reggie Evans pairing with Griffin is to provide defense right? Basically everyone who suits up as Griffin's partner is a defensive guy. So why would the Clips prefer to use Millsaps in place of all those defensive guys that they have? Is Millsap a good defensive guy? No. Is he a good offensive player who'll take shots away from Griffin? Yes. So why?
On top of that, the Millsap and Jefferson combo is a failed one and made the Jazz lottery bound. You see, what you don't get from the article I quoted is that if Millsap + Jefferson (but minus Favors) frontline didn't win games for the Jazz why would the Clips think a Millsap + Griffin (but minus DeAndre) combo would be different?
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Drummond posted a 15 point, 11 rebound, 4 block line in high school. Mediocre compared to NBA stars. Shoot, even Kobe averaged 12 boards a game in high school. Not saying he can't develop, just that he hasn't shown us that ability yet. He is going to have much more to learn than most lottery picks. And there have been questions about his desire and work ethic.
And I don't think throwing out my odds are unreasonable. It's my projection, not some advanced statistic I am trying to quote. And I think there is a less than 25-30% chance Drummond becomes a star player of Bynum's caliber. I don't claim to be any final authority on this. I would ask you though, do you understand how you sound when you say that my odds are somehow ridiculous compared to yours? Or I don't get your point just because I don't agree with it. I understand you don't agree with me. Fair enough. Doesn't make you dumb or unable to comprehend my brilliance. Just means we are looking at something very subjective and interpreting it differently.
And Bynum is a good defender. Struggles on the pick and role, but he is long, plays solid man D and blocks about 2 shots per game. And Swift was more of a PF, but was another player drafted for his great physical traits for his position. But his low basketball IQ, prevented him from being a very effective player, even in the years he got a lot of minutes and put up some stats. I am not saying Drummond will be identical to Swift, but could have a similar impact (or lack thereof).
And yes, Millsap is a good defensive player. He's not a shot blocker (much like Evans and Martin are not), but he plays good positional and help D. If he was on the Clippers last season, they certainly would have played him over Evans and Martin.
The article you posted talked about a lineup used in very specific match ups for 100 minutes. That shows nothing. Just that the lineup can work for 100 minutes. And yes, without an important rotation player the Jazz probably don't make the playoffs. But without Millsap, they definitely wouldn't have made the playoffs. Take Jordan off the Clippers and they are still a playoff team. He had much less of an impact last season. But he still has a lot of potential, if he can harness it going forward.
And for the record, I do understand the importance of a shot blocker. I would love to have one on this team to complement Cousins and Robinson. But that doesn't mean that every player who blocks shots is better to have on the court then every talented big man who doesn't block shots. There is a lot more that goes into playing good offense and defense.