A Conversation between Rick Adelman and Shareef A-Rahim

[SacKings384]

Everyone seems to be forgetting something. Reef has NOT been the more productive starter. Kenny Thomas has provided something that we hadn't had! REBOUNDING!!!! The guy is a rebounding machine! While Reef is... Not... Plus Kenny fits more into the flow of things with the STARTERS. When the bench starts coming in and Peja Mike or Brad sit out, Reefs scoring is what we need. But when Brad Mike and Peja are in, we need rebounding, we need defense, we need a guy that doesn't need the ball to score... That's K9

 

[playmaker0017]

Adelman indicated the starting position is up for grabs at the beginning of the season, and I see nothing to show that Reef's earning it at the time did anything to make it permanent all season.

The thing is - Reef did nothing to lose it. He's played well in almost every game he was in. The only thing one could want more of is shot attempts and rebounds.

Once he comes back, I'll bet he gets a few more boards too. (if he's not too skinny) His back should be healed by then.

I think Rick will continue to bring Reef off the bench until his jaw is completely healed and/or Kenny falls off.

Whether KT falls off or not ... Reef should be on the bench until Reef is healed. I don't think anyone is debating that.

The issue is when Reef removes that wire from his mouth ... he shouldn't be sitting on the bench very long.

 

[playmaker0017]

Everyone seems to be forgetting something. Reef has NOT been the more productive starter. Kenny Thomas has provided something that we hadn't had! REBOUNDING!!!!

Kenny Thomas has not shown that he is a consistent rebounder either. He's a career 7-8 rebound guy. Reef is a career 8-9 guy.

Reef's back, and I mentioned this a while ago, was torqued - so he was boxing his man out.

The guy is a rebounding machine!

Hardly.

He MAY be a better rebounder than Reef ... this season he has been, but let's not pretend he's a monster on the glass.

Ignoring his 18 minute game ... he's had games of 6, 8, 5, 7, 8 ... sprinkled with some serious rebounding nights that make the number look nicer. But, it's not like one can expect KT to come out and dominate the glass night in and out.

While Reef is... Not...

KT as a starter - around 8 rebounds a game over his career.
Reef as a starter - around 8 rebounds a game over his career.

This year is a fluke. Reef has NEVER been this bad on the glass - which goes back to his bad back.

Plus Kenny fits more into the flow of things with the STARTERS.

I like how everyone says this - yet has no factual evidence to back it up. They say look at the wins and losses. Well, W/L is a collective thing ... multiple lineups and matchups and an entire game.

The starting lineup was better offensively and defensively with Reef.

But when Brad Mike and Peja are in, we need rebounding, we need defense, we need a guy that doesn't need the ball to score... That's K9

Did you just you need defense ... so you choose KT? That's a joke! This guy is a pretty bad defender both on his man and on help defense.

 

[Purple Reign]

You made a mistake in your conversation there. Everytime Shareef said something it would say

Shareef: *Indefinable sound*

Rick Adelman: What??

Sharee: *mumble mumble mumble*

His jaw is still wired shut. lol.

 

[BigWaxer]

First off I have to give props for SAR playing last night. Last night he really showed a lot about his character and toughness and I read into it that he really wants to win.

Secondly as I have always said all these various stats can be manipulated to whatever someone wants to prove.

Thomas is inconsistent? Thomas has had 2 poor showings since he has been starting for SAR. Both games were against the Clippers. He did have a poor offensive game against NOK but still bagged 11 boards, so even when he had a poor offensive game he did find a way to help out.

One cannot judge/compare KT’s bench stats with SAR’s starting stats. Nor do I feel he can be labeled an inconsistent player because of his bench play. KT was the most consistent starter last season after he arrived. Since he has been starting this year he has put up 1-tripple double and 3 double double’s (11 games.) SAR on the other hand has put up 3 double double’s in 26 games.

A note about playing off the bench… It is a lot different playing with starters that know how to run the offense vs. the benchies that at the time and are playing horrible. As stated in a post above.

At this point KT has shown he is better in two stat categories that I think are very important needs for us... assists and rebounding. I am not worried as much about scoring because when the ball is moving we seem to have no problem scoring as any of our starters have the ability to have a big offensive night. SAR can score and so far has been very efficient at it. We do need scoring off the bench and because he is a good and efficient scorer I would consider playing him off the bench. BUT WAIT I AM NOT DONE

To me it’s not about who wants to be a starter or who deserves to be a starter it’s about what mix of players performs the best on the court. With the starting crew of Miller/Bibby/Bonzi or Kmart/Peja I think KT gives us what we need in the starting unit, which is ball distribution and rebounding. When the ball doesn’t move our offense just stalls.

NOW with all that said a couple things have to be taken into consideration. Are SAR’s rebounding stat numbers low because of Bonzi? SAR put up some nice assist numbers early in the season but in December that fell off. Then one has to take into consideration that the entire team was just playing horrible in December. Is that SAR’s fault?

I think there are a lot of factors to consider and no one stat number is going to tell us who is currently better suited to start. I can only speak to what I see on the court. The ball appears to move more when KT is on the floor, when SAR is on the floor the offense stalls. AGAIN see my points above. Is it SAR’S fault or was it because the team was playing so poorly?

I say let SAR start when he is ready, hopefully the team is still playing well and then we can truly see who is better suited to start for us.

My point of view is not for or against either player; they both have the same name on the front of their jerseys. I want what is best for the team not a particular player.

 

[playmaker0017]

At this point KT has shown he is better in two stat categories that I think are very important needs for us... assists and rebounding.

For the most part - I agree with a lot of what you've said - but I do have this contention:

He has shown that he can grab a lot of rebounds ... but is hardly consistent at it.

As for assists - I beg to differ. Even with one huge 10 assist game ... his APG number as a starter lags mightily behind Reef's average on the year ... and that 10 assist game really pulled his number up.

To me it’s not about who wants to be a starter or who deserves to be a starter it’s about what mix of players performs the best on the court. With the starting crew of Miller/Bibby/Bonzi or Kmart/Peja I think KT gives us what we need in the starting unit, which is ball distribution and rebounding. When the ball doesn’t move our offense just stalls.

WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP REGURGITATING THIS?!

Let's say it again - the starting unit performed better with Reef than with KT. The difference in the final score of games is negligable ... but it helps when everyone on the roster is contributing.

Our offense is NOT better with KT than Reef. It's pretty even. Again, the difference is that we aren't allowing a bench to dig us a hole. That bench is now contributing at a high level.

PPM = Points Per Minute / PAPM = Points Against Per Minute

Bibby-Wells-Stojakovic-Abdur-Rahim-Miller .......... PPM 2.21 .......... PAPM 2.10
Bibby-Martin-Stojakovic-Thomas-Miller .......... PPM 1.91 .......... PAPM 2.16

The real interesting feature is when you remove Peja.

This isn't just about Reef at this point. I want Reef to start for my own selfish reasons, no doubt ... but there is a lot of misinformation going around.

 

[BigWaxer]

Our offense is NOT better with KT than Reef. It's pretty even. Again, the difference is that we aren't allowing a bench to dig us a hole. That bench is now contributing at a high level.

Maybe I should of stated it differently because I agree with your point above. I Definately agree with you on the bench sucking. I actually said that here during the first month when everyone was jumping on certain players. It was obvious our bench wasn't getting the job done.

I wanted to expand on my take with SAR/KT on something you said earlier. I agree that if KT's bad play off the bench is a result of him pouting then he needs to go. If its because he just plays better starting then I would question what is better for the team at that point. Overall I think SAR is the better player with more talent/skills. However I also think SAR is the type of player that can do his stuff off the bench or starting. Some players just never play well off the bench, not sure why but it happens. The flip side of that is you generally don't bring the better player off the bench.

As I said above I would like to see SAR starting when he is ready. Now that most of the team is playing better we should get a better look at what SAR can do.

 

[BMiller52]

Playmaker I know shareef's your most favorite player ever but come on-the team is winning right now. It might not be a number you can use but the team has developed a chemistry, why mess that up? If the team is winning than shareef is winning too, even if he's on the bench only getting 20 MPG.

 

[Sparky]

They ought to look quickly at trades. If Reef can perform by the trade deadline, then move KT.

I think this injury thing may turn out to be one of the best things to happen to Kings all season. We are approaching prime hunting season (trade deadline) and KT is looking like a stud. You don't think scouts were watching his passing, and the way he schooled Walton? Maybe, just maybe, we could unload Mr. boat anchor contract with attitude.

KT is a bench level player with an all-star attitude.

Now if something could be done to inspire Reef to pull down some rebounds...

 

[playmaker0017]

Playmaker I know shareef's your most favorite player ever but come on-the team is winning right now. It might not be a number you can use but the team has developed a chemistry, why mess that up? If the team is winning than shareef is winning too, even if he's on the bench only getting 20 MPG.

The team is winning, but I don't think it's direct correlation is KT for Reef.

I think the correlation lies with all players on our roster contributing when they are on the floor. This is a direct contrast to when Reef, Bonzi and Peja were healthy.

 

[Yoda]

The team is winning, but I don't think it's direct correlation is KT for Reef.

I think the correlation lies with all players on our roster contributing when they are on the floor. This is a direct contrast to when Reef, Bonzi and Peja were healthy.

If it is about the roster producing while they are playing why not put KT in starting lineup where he contributes, instead of having him near useless off the bench? Is it about the better player or about team chemistry and getting everyone to contribute?

 

[Jerryaki]

WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP REGURGITATING THIS?! [regarding flow of KT w/ starters]

We keep regurgitating it because there are some things that you can't capture or back up with facts, but you can when you simply take a look at them playing together. what i've seen? Throw the ball into SAR, watch him create. No cutting, no movement. Is that his fault? No. Does it happen? Yeah. so when we say flow, we mean ball movement. Is SAR a cutter? A princeton guy? Does he find the cutters with passers? No. His game is score score score. Lots of pretty low post moves, and an okay mid-range jumper. I'm not an expert, i could be wrong, but this is what i see in him.

And KT? Less talented. No one's disputing this. But at least he's been in this system for the half a season from last season. And i think he's got some of the capability to run the high post offense we want. What's been the biggest complaint with SAR in the line-up? Only brad can execute the high post; shut brad, shut the kings.

At the end of the day, RA's gonna play SAR. My prediction is we'll still be as stagnant, and KT will revert, because he simply can't play off the bench well for us. Which is why we argue for putting him in the starting line-up. We've tried it the other way; let's try something else? (also, SAR may be a career 8-9 rpg guy, just not this season. So put in a guy who may get us more boards.)

And come on, it's not unheard of to put the more talented player as the sixth man. See: manu ginobli last year for some time, and ricky davis.

 

[JJ22L]

i didnt read through the thread to see if my question was answered, but here it is.

What is the kings record with reef starting/ what is the kings record with KT starting?

if someone can give me that ill give u an answer...

i dont give a damn about who has the better stats, who scores more, who is nicer, etc...its not about that..its about the KINGS...if reef puts up 6 more pts a game and we lose...but kt puts up 6 less points a game and we win (and vise versa)..the answer is obvious

 

[Fear the Putin]

i dont really get adelman completely...

when a player comes back from an injury they should work their way after not playing for a long time off the bench...

especially if you were winning...

thats what I love about Jerry Sloan. Andrei Kirilenko is their all-star player and he was injured for a couple of games and when he came back sloan made him come off the bench and it took AK a couple of games and now he is on a rampage putting up incredible numbers and the jazz are winning

 

[Bballkingsrock]

KT should start and see what happens. We want KT to play teh best he can and he doesn't do that when he plays off the bench. It will be good for Shareef to be benched so the Kings can have some depth. But Shareef has to do some good things off bench to make it work. He just has to do better htan KT when KT comes off the bench.

 

[JJ22L]

KT should start and see what happens. We want KT to play teh best he can and he doesn't do that when he plays off the bench. It will be good for Shareef to be benched so the Kings can have some depth. But Shareef has to do some good things off bench to make it work. He just has to do better htan KT when KT comes off the bench.

My toy poodle could do better off the bench then KT did...its like night and day when he starts...his attitude..gah

 

[BMiller52]

i didnt read through the thread to see if my question was answered, but here it is.

What is the kings record with reef starting/ what is the kings record with KT starting?

if someone can give me that ill give u an answer...

i dont give a damn about who has the better stats, who scores more, who is nicer, etc...its not about that..its about the KINGS...if reef puts up 6 more pts a game and we lose...but kt puts up 6 less points a game and we win (and vise versa)..the answer is obvious

Exactly, these stats don't matter if you aren't winning. They can be manipulated to state whatever opinion you want them to state. Wins and losses are THE ONLY THING that matters.

 

[KP]

They are both about equal talent wise, both have their strengths and weaknesses, but the team seems to play better with KT starting. 10-17 when Reef starts... 7-4 when KT starts. Reef is definately a better overall scorer and can do a better job creating his own shot, because of that he will be able to give more steady production(offensively) off the bench, than KT will. Plus when Reef comes off the bench, both in pre-season and last night it seems to effect his game less. When it's crunch time whoever has the better matchup or is playing better will get the minutes. It's not really going to be an issue for awhile, since Reef can't breathe all that well, but for now we'll watch Kenny starting and see if the winning continues.

 

[JJ22L]

They are both about equal talent wise, both have their strengths and weaknesses, but the team seems to play better with KT starting. 10-17 when Reef starts... 7-4 when KT starts. Reef is definately a better overall scorer and can do a better job creating his own shot, because of that he will be able to give more steady production(offensively) off the bench, than KT will. Plus when Reef comes off the bench, both in pre-season and last night it seems to effect his game less. When it's crunch time whoever has the better matchup or is playing better will get the minutes. It's not really going to be an issue for awhile, since Reef can't breathe all that well, but for now we'll watch Kenny starting and see if the winning continues.

Then there is your answer...whether you think SAR is better..or KT is whining...i like 7-4....whining or not we are getting it done. There are some weak wins in there...but then there are some legit ones...same as SAR...

i know some people are going to try to push that point...

Then again though, bibby has been a friggin savage during that streak...maybe it has something to do with SAR not clogging up the offense, who knows ...bonzi out peja out...there are ALOT of circumstances...but you cant just go away from 7-4 ...if its KT or not you have to ride the pony thats winning until you lose with it and keep starting KT.

 

[Purple Reign]

bump

 

[playmaker0017]

Exactly, these stats don't matter if you aren't winning. They can be manipulated to state whatever opinion you want them to state. Wins and losses are THE ONLY THING that matters.

That's just not true.

Wins and losses matter, yes ... but winning without analyzing the stats to see why?

They aren't winning because of KT starting. They aren't winning because he's doing something or providing something Reef didn't. They are winning because Bibby found his shot and the bench started to play decent basketball. PERIOD.

 

[BMiller52]

Then why not keep reef as our spark off the bench? He'd still get a lot of minutes and he's coming back from an injury it'll take like a month to get back to 100% from. He fits in better with the second unit. KT doesn't need the ball to be effective, shareef does. Bibby does, Miller does, Peja does. We have enough scorers in the starting lineup, KT is our hustle guy. Shareef can be our scorer off the bench still getting minutes. If it gets wins who cares? Wouldn't he rather get wins than minutes?

 

[SK23]

Kenny Thomas is so inconsistent. He even said him self that he "feeds" off Mike Bibby and the rest of the team. He can't create his own shot and turns into a jump shooting PF sometimes. In order for this team to be a playoff team they need Shareef starting. Just look what Shareef has done against players like Duncan and Garnett. I will promise you guys that Kenny Thomas would never score anything over 10 against those PF's or play defense against them for the matter being. IMO I think Peja should be traded for some bench players and that way we could put Bonzi at the SF position and keep starting Kevin. This team needs low post scoring if they want to go which is what Bonzi and Shareef bring to this team in the starting lineup.

 

[thesanityannex]

Then why not keep reef as our spark off the bench? He'd still get a lot of minutes and he's coming back from an injury it'll take like a month to get back to 100% from. He fits in better with the second unit. KT doesn't need the ball to be effective, shareef does. Bibby does, Miller does, Peja does. We have enough scorers in the starting lineup, KT is our hustle guy. Shareef can be our scorer off the bench still getting minutes. If it gets wins who cares? Wouldn't he rather get wins than minutes?

I would hope SAR would take wins over minutes. I think you are right in your assessment of KT needing to start. SAR can be the main focus with the second unit, and the game can be slowed down to fit his style. Hart and SAR would work well together if given the opportunity.

 

[JJ22L]

I would hope SAR would take wins over minutes. I think you are right in your assessment of KT needing to start. SAR can be the main focus with the second unit, and the game can be slowed down to fit his style. Hart and SAR would work well together if given the opportunity.

Agreed, last time i heard SAR wanted to make a playoff game before he quit...

 

[VF21]

Here is a conversation that i hopes will happen between Coach Adelman and Abdur-Rahim

SETTING
As Shareef is shooting free throws at the end of practice today before boarding the plane to Orlando, Coach Adelman calls Shareef over to the side in private.

COACH ADELMAN: Reef, I think that you played a great game last night under very difficult circumstances. You are a warrior and the effort will not go unnoticed.

SHAREEF: UMMHUM, HUMMUM, MUM (Translation through the Wire speak )Thanks coach, I appreciate that.

RA: I just want to let you know that I will be starting Kenny throughout this road trip and for the indefinate future.

SAR: UMMHUM, HUMMUM, MUM (Translation through the Wire speak) Why coach? I know that it is going to take me some time to get back into condition, but after a while, I'll be alright and ready to go.

RA: I know and I understand that, but Kenny is playing so well right now, and I do not want to mess up what we have going. We do not need any internal distractions at this point and if I go back to the way things were, I am afraid that we will lose certain players as far as chemestry.

SAR: Uh Huh (as Shareef nods his head and gives a look in a disagreeable but mutual understanding)

RA: Besides, I know that you are able to handle this and still be wonderfully productive off of the bench with significant minutes and contribute to this ball team. You can not say that about everybody.

SAR: I understand.

RA: Reef, please trust me on this. And if things begin to turn, i will get you back in there. But until then, Kenny will be starting.

SAR: UMMHUM, HUMMUM, MUMBLE, MUMBLE, MUMBLE (Translation through the Wire speak) OK coach, I just want to win.


AUTHORS NOTE: This is the conversation I think should take place right now. Because if Adelman does it any other way, this team is screwed and we can kiss this season goodbye. Not because of Shareef, but because of other players who can not handle their role. Keep listening, because Coach will have the same conversation with Kevin Martin when #42 is ready to return .

Very nice.

And, because this is the NBA and not boy scouts, the coach does what works. If it means SAR comes off the bench, then SAR comes off the bench. We're lucky to have someone with an attitude like Reef's, who is willing to sacrifice the "starter" title for the good of the team, if it comes to that.

 

[thesanityannex]

Very nice.

And, because this is the NBA and not boy scouts, the coach does what works.

Does he? I have a feeling he'll just go back to his normal rotation. Hoping I am wrong.

 

[SacTownKid]

Start Kenny. I think we need Reefs scoring off the bench. In the end, even if Reef comes off the bench he will still probably get the most minutes out of the two. Just spoon feed Reef the ball off the bench! Great 6th man.

Kenny is not a pure scorer, and Reef is. Thats what we need off the bench.

 

[KP]

Start Kenny. I think we need Reefs scoring off the bench. In the end, even if Reef comes off the bench he will still probably get the most minutes out of the two. Just spoon feed Reef the ball off the bench! Great 6th man.

Kenny is not a pure scorer, and Reef is. Thats what we need off the bench.

100% agree.

 

[Purple Reign]

bump