A controversial article on Casspi:

[bajaden]

casspi is a talented player in european and also israeli standards, and all of us israelis are still surprised in a way when he hits threes in the NBA or lays down a teardrop in a fastbreak. we knew he's energetic, but his scoring in the NBA is interpreted by many as a result of a boost of adrenalin that faded away around january-february.

i hate to see signs of cockiness in him, but i feel for him, since in israel - and in europe - it is common invlove "belief" in a player when you let him play. i think it's a little outdated, especially when coaches have so many choices and the hierarchy is not clear, but apparently casspi felt he wanted the coaching staff to believe in him.

personally i do think they believed in him, even when he missed a lot.

i saw more games of casspi late in the season though and it seemed he had lots of playing time with no shooting at all.

that's a result of both feeling frustrated his early "rush" faded, and of the fact that the kings aren't really playing the european passing game that helps players getting in zone, they have to take it in both hands.

but when many of you say casspi could be a starter in sac, being a central pillar etc, i don't think you realize that a player like omri needs consistency assured not by the coach but by his teammates.
when omri see's tyreke taking bad shots and having a a bad assists/TO ratio for 35-40 minutes, that's frustrating. and that's your point guard.
check out that omri has the best +/- ratio from all the starters/top subs.
and with whom? with sergio.
beno doesn't count him, some kind of european jealousy i guess.

it's fair and sqaure for the kings to say we need more of an independant player, someone like greene or udoka - that does not depend on teammates and is more automatic on jump shots.

but then don't be surprised if casspi is willing to play 15 minutes in a higher profile team where he knows his role, the hierarchy is clear, he gets better passes and clearer shots, and is adding an extra factor when steps on the court, and not like with kings, expected to make the game happen just because he's the number 4 or 5 scorer in the team (as it was earlier).

true, with the cavs or the lakers he wouldnt have too many shots, but in dallas or san antonio, or other play-off teams, he might.

thanks all,
Noam.

Well I was in agreement with much of what you wrote. But you lost me when you said that he got frustrated when he watched Tyreke take bad shots, and then criticized Tyreke's assist to turnover ratio. I don't want this to get into a pissing contest over the right or wrong of either player. But perhaps you can tell me which shots were the bad one's that Tyreke took. Most people would probably say some of the ugly jumpshots that Tyreke took. But in truth, most of those shots were wide open shots. And he was encouraged by the coaching staff to take those shots. So they were actually poorly executed good shots. To my mind, the bad shots Tyreke took were some of the forced shots he missed, or got blocked trying to get to the basket.

As the season wore on, more and more teams prepared their defense to stop Tyreke from getting to the basket. You'll notice that I didn't say they prepared their defense to stop Casspi. As a result, Tyreke had to adjust his game accordingly. He still managed to shoot 45% from the floor, despite having a pitiful shooting percentage from 3pt range. Hey, LeBron only shot 41% from the floor his first year.

For a large part of the season I kept track of how many assists Tyreke lost because of missed shots or the player who was wide open at the time, putting the ball on the floor and then shooting it. It averaged between 10 and 15 shots a game. Casspi was one of the main culprits along with Nocioni.

So please, lets not try and blame Tyreke or anyone else on the team, including Westphal for how Casspi played. The truth is that almost all the fans like Casspi and want him to succeed. I'm sure the Kings want him to succeed and will do everything they can to help him do so. He got more playing time with the Kings in one year that he would get on the Lakers or any of the top teams in two years. So he, nor you have anything to complain about. And don't compare what happens here to european basketball. I don't give a rats behind how they do it in Europe. He's in the NBA now! I'm not about to watch European basketball and complain about how an american player is being used over there. He chose to play there, so he has to do things the way they're done there. I would have a deaf ear to his complaints.

 

[Prince_XY]

but when many of you say casspi could be a starter in sac, being a central pillar etc, i don't think you realize that a player like omri needs consistency assured not by the coach but by his teammates.
when omri see's tyreke taking bad shots and having a a bad assists/TO ratio for 35-40 minutes, that's frustrating. and that's your point guard.
check out that omri has the best +/- ratio from all the starters/top subs.
and with whom? with sergio.
beno doesn't count him, some kind of european jealousy i guess.

it's fair and sqaure for the kings to say we need more of an independant player, someone like greene or udoka - that does not depend on teammates and is more automatic on jump shots.

but then don't be surprised if casspi is willing to play 15 minutes in a higher profile team where he knows his role, the hierarchy is clear, he gets better passes and clearer shots, and is adding an extra factor when steps on the court, and not like with kings, expected to make the game happen just because he's the number 4 or 5 scorer in the team (as it was earlier).

Noam.

Yup. That is our point guard. The rookie who just happened to averaged 20/5/5 in his rookie year. And I believe you are in the minority who see that kind of performance as frustrating.

I like Casspi because like Thompson he always give his best in every game. Unfortunately you need more than effort to be consistently good in this league. You also need the necessary TALENT/SKILL. And I think Casspi is still very raw and lacking the necessary skill/talent to become a force in this league. He looks awkward and plays like a hyperactive high school kid trying very hard to score. I actually think his success earlier in the season was pure luck - meaning his shots were going in. And when his shots were not going in during the latter part of the season, he looked really bad out there trying too hard to belong in the NBA. But he is young and looks like an effort player. So he will be fine just don't ask or expect him to be more than a decent bench player yet especially on a very good team.

 

[vikinginferno]

Yup. That is our point guard. The rookie who just happened to averaged 20/5/5 in his rookie year. And I believe you are in the minority who see that kind of performance as frustrating.

I like Casspi because like Thompson he always give his best in every game. Unfortunately you need more than effort to be consistently good in this league. You also need the necessary TALENT/SKILL. And I think Casspi is still very raw and lacking the necessary skill/talent to become a force in this league. He looks awkward and plays like a hyperactive high school kid trying very hard to score. I actually think his success earlier in the season was pure luck - meaning his shots were going in. And when his shots were not going in during the latter part of the season, he looked really bad out there trying too hard to belong in the NBA. But he is young and looks like an effort player. So he will be fine just don't ask or expect him to be more than a decent bench player yet especially on a very good team.

How can you say that Casspi won't be more than a decent bench player? To discount what Casspi did in the first half of the season as pure luck is just BS. He has shown the ability to be a great shooter in the league, while also demonstrating his athletic ability. Yes, he needs to put on some muscle and get better conditioned for a full season, but for someone who had showed many great things rookie year, how can you say that they can only be a bench player? There is a thing called development and I could see Casspi developing into a great player, maybe not a star (or maybe so), but I definitely think he will be a great player.

 

[Prince_XY]

So he will be fine just don't ask or expect him to be more than a decent bench player yet especially on a very good team.

Do you honestly believe he is ready to start on the Lakers or Cavaliers team?

I hope that is enough to answer your question.

 

[mac]

Do you honestly believe he is ready to start on the Lakers or Cavaliers team?

I hope that is enough to answer your question.

Well...to be fair the spurs have started far scrubbier players than Casspi in their championship runs. But those players also knew their roles - that they were just there to hit 3s, or just there to rebound, things like that. Casspi wouldn't survive as a starter on championship teams not because of a lack of talent but because he'd try to do too much. Imagine Anthony Parker thinking he's Lebron and backing down guys and shooting fadeaways and stuff.

 

[mcsluggo]

Well...to be fair the spurs have started far scrubbier players than Casspi in their championship runs. But those players also knew their roles - that they were just there to hit 3s, or just there to rebound, things like that. Casspi wouldn't survive as a starter on championship teams not because of a lack of talent but because he'd try to do too much. Imagine Anthony Parker thinking he's Lebron and backing down guys and shooting fadeaways and stuff.

you have basically DEFINED the difference between a vet and a rookie there... knowledge comes with experience

 

[DoDiGaG0]

 

[Noam77]

not talking

Just wondering where you got the bolded part from.

, Casspi cost him a good number of assists throughout several games on all his bricked open shots that Tyreke created for him.

Anyway, I think the underlying thing is that this was a very new beginning for everyone. New coach, new players, new emphasis. We tend to forget this and expect a perfect and refined system already in place with excellent ball movement and everyone playing hard and consistently well. But the fact is, Omri and Tyreke and even coach Westphal were rookies to the Sacramento Kings this past season, and that said I think the overall production and growth was more than satisfactory.

i sincerely hope things would get better . i for one thought that 82 games are far more then enough for a coach to explain his players how does he want the team to look. i think he didnt deal with that. i didnt see enough sets and enough movement without the ball

 

[Kingsguy881]

i sincerely hope things would get better . i for one thought that 82 games are far more then enough for a coach to explain his players how does he want the team to look. i think he didnt deal with that. i didnt see enough sets and enough movement without the ball

I don't think you saw much of anything if you think Tyreke Evans is the reason Casspi had a hard time to close out the season. Unless you think someone setting you up for wide open threes that you couldn't hit would contribute to a problem

 

[Noam77]

some reply

perhaps you can tell me which shots were the bad one's that Tyreke took. Most people would probably say some of the ugly jumpshots that Tyreke took. But in truth, most of those shots were wide open shots. And he was encouraged by the coaching staff to take those shots. So they were actually poorly executed good shots. To my mind, the bad shots Tyreke took were some of the forced shots he missed, or got blocked trying to get to the basket. those shots for sure, and also those "wide open" shots, that maybe when they fall inside look great, but they are taken against the course of play

. You'll notice that I didn't say they prepared their defense to stop Casspi. i never claimed that casspi is more talented. i even said he is less talented than what some think - but could be used better than he was this season
As a result, Tyreke had to adjust his game accordingly. He still managed to shoot 45% from the floor, despite having a pitiful shooting percentage from 3pt range. Hey, LeBron only shot 41% from the floor his first year.

For a large part of the season I kept track of how many assists Tyreke lost because of missed shots or the player who was wide open at the time, putting the ball on the floor and then shooting it. It averaged between 10 and 15 shots a game. Casspi was one of the main culprits along with Nocioni. course of play, course of play course of play. penetrating with your head against the wall, then realzing it and being athletic enough to turn around and pass to the nearest player doesnt really count as an intelligent assist. such an assist is when you PLAN the play. albeit the overrated improvization of many talents in the NBA, coaching, planning and discipline costs less than talent and brought just as much if not more championships to teams. celtics, spurs, pistons, and to a lesser success dallas and phoenix


So please, lets not try and blame Tyreke or anyone else on the team, including Westphal for how Casspi played. The truth is that almost all the fans like Casspi and want him to succeed. I'm sure the Kings want him to succeed and will do everything they can to help him do so. He got more playing time with the Kings in one year that he would get on the Lakers or any of the top teams in two years. i dont think it was a present..So he, nor you have anything to complain about. And don't compare what happens here to european basketball. I don't give a rats behind how they do it in Europe. He's in the NBA now! I'm not about to watch European basketball and complain about how an american player is being used over there. He chose to play there, so he has to do things the way they're done there. I would have a deaf ear to his complaints.
i am not defending casspi. i just hate it when i know that SAC is not making the best of casspi and the likes of him. casspi won't be a scorer. won't be a no.1 or even a no.2 option when he's on court on any constellation. the team needs to quit this tyreke havoc. for the 2nd part of the season there was this stupid race for the 20/5/5 that became more important than playing well. and about european basketball, you know we learned from the american basketball as it was some 50-60 years ago. perhaps we play they way you could have played, but with much more talented players, this could have looked like dallas, phoenix and san antonio all league around

hope the red did it's job

 

[Noam77]

I don't think you saw much of anything if you think Tyreke Evans is the reason Casspi had a hard time to close out the season. Unless you think someone setting you up for wide open threes that you couldn't hit would contribute to a problem

please relate to what i said earlier - casspi playing 15, 20 minutes and more with almost no shots taken, and not only him.
team play's close to zilch. beno and tyreke holding the ball for 20 minutes and no advantage over the other team is gained. so the defence is not folding, and whoever shoots at the final seconds succeeds by his atheticism. even so, casspi had a good fg percent most of the season. plus the +/- ratio i mentioned.

another point: taking a wide open shot doesnt neccesarily mean it's a good shot, see what i wrote earlier about the course of play.

 

[mac]

please relate to what i said earlier - casspi playing 15, 20 minutes and more with almost no shots taken, and not only him.
team play's close to zilch. beno and tyreke holding the ball for 20 minutes and no advantage over the other team is gained. so the defence is not folding, and whoever shoots at the final seconds succeeds by his atheticism. even so, casspi had a good fg percent most of the season. plus the +/- ratio i mentioned.

another point: taking a wide open shot doesnt neccesarily mean it's a good shot, see what i wrote earlier about the course of play.

So if you have a wide open shot, but it's not "in the course of play" you don't take it? And we're not saying it's Shaq open on the 3 point line you know ... Gosh if you hold this opinion then all I can say is be prepared for a lot of criticism.

As for the team needing to drop this "tyreke havoc" ... hoo boy. Good luck with that pal.

Also, how do you know that Tyreke is simply driving into traffic and being athletic enough to get a pass off? Or even if that were the case, does it not create an open shot for other players such as Casspi and Nocioni? Players who have shown that they can be decent outside shooters. I don't get your whole philosophy on basketball actually, it's like you want everything to be done just for the sake of doing it, without regards to the results. If Tyreke creates a wide open shot for someone, he's created a wide open shot for someone. But you care more whether he did it intentionally or whether he did it just because he was triple teamed inside.

In my last post I tried to be fair to all the players and the coaching staff. You instead felt that 82 games should have been sufficient for the coach to get the team to play sets, completely disregarding Martin's injury, followed by Martin's return, Martin's trade and so on. Do you want to coach the Sacramento Kings to your Euro-victory or something?

I just can't stand it when people who are primarily fans of Euro ball come and expect their Euro systems to be played.

 

[fnordius]

You know, that is a good point about the +/- numbers.

I don't think there's any one stat you can look at to tell if a basketball player's any good. +/-, for example, only compares your team with you on the court to your team with your substitute(s) on the court. And if your team loses a lot, you can have a negative +/- score even if you're an excellent and selfless player. Stats guys have resorted to things like "adjusted +/-" scores to try to fix that. This seems to do a reasonably accurate job of telling who the handful of very best players in the NBA are.

However, it makes Evans look absolutely terrible (as it does OJ Mayo and David Lee).

Tyreke Evans of the Sacramento Kings, the league’s Rookie of the Year, was among the worst players on the team as measured by plus/minus, both adjusted and raw. The Kings scored about six fewer points per 100 possessions with Evans on the floor as compared to when Evans was on the bench, according to Basketball Value and 82games.com.

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/plusminus-in-the-n-b-a-a-plus-or-minus/

Casspi, Rodriguez, Greene and Udoka are the Kings who have positive +/- ratings whether they're adjusted or not.

I don't mean to derail the thread with this, and I don't mean to put undue emphasis on one stat. I'm just throwing it out there, make of it what you will.

 

[bajaden]

please relate to what i said earlier - casspi playing 15, 20 minutes and more with almost no shots taken, and not only him.
team play's close to zilch. beno and tyreke holding the ball for 20 minutes and no advantage over the other team is gained. so the defence is not folding, and whoever shoots at the final seconds succeeds by his atheticism. even so, casspi had a good fg percent most of the season. plus the +/- ratio i mentioned.

another point: taking a wide open shot doesnt neccesarily mean it's a good shot, see what i wrote earlier about the course of play.

Mi amigo, the whole point of an offensive set is to get someone a good shot. Now unless you have a 6 point lead with only 45 seconds left in the game and your trying to burn clock, you damm well better take a wide open shot. Thats the whole point of the offense. To get a wide open shot if you can.

I'm more upset with a player passing up a wide open shot, than I'am a player missing a wide open shot. No one makes them all..

 

[bajaden]

You know, that is a good point about the +/- numbers.

I don't think there's any one stat you can look at to tell if a basketball player's any good. +/-, for example, only compares your team with you on the court to your team with your substitute(s) on the court. And if your team loses a lot, you can have a negative +/- score even if you're an excellent and selfless player. Stats guys have resorted to things like "adjusted +/-" scores to try to fix that. This seems to do a reasonably accurate job of telling who the handful of very best players in the NBA are.

However, it makes Evans look absolutely terrible (as it does OJ Mayo and David Lee).

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/03/plusminus-in-the-n-b-a-a-plus-or-minus/

Casspi, Rodriguez, Greene and Udoka are the Kings who have positive +/- ratings whether they're adjusted or not.

I don't mean to derail the thread with this, and I don't mean to put undue emphasis on one stat. I'm just throwing it out there, make of it what you will.

I can't begin to tell you how many games I've watched where a player comes into the game and plays well, but ends up with a minus stat. I think the only way to judge that stat is if your playing with the same players all the time, which of course is impossible. I place almost zero value on that stat because its too dependent on who your playing with at the time.

I remember watching a game where Udoka came in and scored around 12 points and grabbed around 7 rebounds in 19 minutes of play. He also played good defense while he was in there. And he ended up with a minus stat. I mean how is that possible? Even individual stats don't tell the whole story, but at least they do reflect what you accomplished.

 

[fnordius]

I remember watching a game where Udoka came in and scored around 12 points and grabbed around 7 rebounds in 19 minutes of play. He also played good defense while he was in there. And he ended up with a minus stat. I mean how is that possible?

In a single game, if your team's getting whipped from beginning to end, every player on the losing team is likely to end up with a - (unadjusted) stat. (If the whole season's that way, your team will be crammed with - players, hence the adjusted stat.)

But nobody thinks that +/- means anything when you're looking at a single game. It's only considered significant when you're looking at dozens of games, or, better yet, hundreds.

In this particular case, I'm not claiming that it means anything, I'm just reporting it.

 

[Noam77]

blueprints

So if you have a wide open shot, but it's not "in the course of play" you don't take it? And we're not saying it's Shaq open on the 3 point line you know ... Gosh if you hold this opinion then all I can say is be prepared for a lot of criticism. all i say is that if being open is the only thing that counts then you would just run up to offence and shoot the ball in 50% of the time, when they're not guarding you, even when it's 18-20 on the shot clock. the whole point of decision making on court is a mixture of the healthy natural instinct to shoot, and the calculating mind knowing that someone on the weekside could make a far better drive or shot, that the opponent's defence must feel your big guys struggling, targeting the basket, drawing fouls etc.

Also, how do you know that Tyreke is simply driving into traffic and being athletic enough to get a pass off? Or even if that were the case, does it not create an open shot for other players such as Casspi and Nocioni? Players who have shown that they can be decent outside shooters. I don't get your whole philosophy on basketball actually, it's like you want everything to be done just for the sake of doing it, without regards to the results. If Tyreke creates a wide open shot for someone, he's created a wide open shot for someone. But you care more whether he did it intentionally or whether he did it just because he was triple teamed inside.

i say something else. don't be surprised that reke has 5 assists a game and other pg's in this league average 8 assists, with less decisions being made. don't be surprised that reke's passes not always turn into assists, since the guy getting the ball doesn't KNOW when he'll get the ball, so he's circling endlessly the perimeter or the 3pt line. this kind of movement wares you down, and boggles your mind. noc is a good example of someone who grassped the NBA rule - shoot when open - or even when half-open, but his percents dropped. why? because you need having the ZONE.
everybody knows that being in the ZONE is much more important then being wide open. and being in the zone is matter of getting the ball in the right time and believing in your teammates.
and this is much truer to other players then casspi.

casspi isn't really the issue, just the symptom.

In my last post I tried to be fair to all the players and the coaching staff. You instead felt that 82 games should have been sufficient for the coach to get the team to play sets, completely disregarding Martin's injury, followed by Martin's return, Martin's trade and so on. Do you want to coach the Sacramento Kings to your Euro-victory or something?

I just can't stand it when people who are primarily fans of Euro ball come and expect their Euro systems to be played.

my friend, there ain't such thing as euro-ball, really. it's just plain basketball, team play, that's all. wanting to win more than wanting to sell a show. now do you want to WIN or not???

 

[Casspi]

something ON TOPIC
i watched a live interview on omri casspi yesterday and he said that
Sacramento plays on tyreke and thats there game plans
he also said he likes Sacramento and would be happy to stay there

 

[Arco Thunder]

something ON TOPIC
i watched a live interview on omri casspi yesterday and he said that
Sacramento plays on tyreke and thats there game plans
he also said he likes Sacramento and would be happy to stay there

What did he mean by "plays on Tyreke?"

 

[Bricklayer]

What did he mean by "plays on Tyreke?"

presumably plays off Tyreke

 

[Arco Thunder]

presumably plays off Tyreke

Thanks.

 

[drogba]

I'd like to know what the exact question was that he was answering when he said "I am ready for a bigger team".

the truth is he never said nothing like that, not in his interviews to the Israeli press or to the American press.
this news paper is the worst in Israel, and as you know jurnalist usually are not so relible, and this one especially.
he love Sacramento and he love the Coach and he gave him a lot of credit for letting him play all year,in the Israeli news papers.