twslam07
All-Star
Irrelevant. DeRozan doesn’t log minutes at guard.
[Game] 44/82: Kings at Nuggets 23 JAN 2025, 6pm PT/9pm ET
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Joshyjosh31
Starter
He’s not coming off the bench anymore we know this only hope is he’s not to big of a negative on defense to close games. Trading him would be asinine though he’s our best playmaker Fox and Derozan can’t do what he does and I’m not sure I’ve seen Demar set up a teammate
twslam07
All-Star
So if you think…
- Monk will not come off the bench anymore and that he will close games
- Trading Monk is asinine
…it sounds like you’re in favor of trading Fox? That is unless you reject the premise that we are best when Ellis is starting at SG and closing games out at SG?
Which is it?
sactowndog
All-Star
nor will Monks agent. He could easily earn NBA starting point guard money on his next contract. And quite frankly be every bit as good as VanVleet.
sactowndog
All-Star
Not completely because he did at Chicago and could here. A Domas, <insert 4 of choice>, Keegan, DeRozen, Fox or Monk lineup would be able to match up against bigger lineups we have seen.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Why do people keep adding a year to his age? No need to exaggerate that he's an older player
Joshyjosh31
Starter
Find a wing defender that can start next to Keegan and the problem is semi solved Fox and Monk would be fine if Derozan wasn’t starting. Keegan can’t be the only good defender starting
twslam07
All-Star
No, it’s irrelevant when we have 4 players who should be getting guard minutes (Fox, Monk, Ellis, & Carter) already. It would be relevant if DeRozan was getting guard minutes today…he isn’t.
I would be all over this.
Isaac is perfect fit as long as he plays limited minutes otherwise he breaks down, Jabari definitely improves the starting lineup d and shoots 3 ball at somewhat respectable percentage, Shepard could very likely become a serviceable NBA player or more, and 2027 Suns pick could be in a lotery
QWERTYLICIOUS
Starter
Stop making excuses for yourself.
twslam07
All-Star
First, I think you’re underestimating how difficult it is to acquire a good, starting caliber 3&D wing in this league that justifies supplanting DeRozan in the starting lineup. Which team wants to give up said player? And what are we paying for said player?
Second, I think you’re underestimating just how valuable and impactful Ellis is. We already have one of the most elite roleplaying defenders in the league. Why not optimally use him in our roster construction and rotations? Here's a quick analysis I did across 3 advanced impact stats to help illustrate how rare Ellis impact and productivity is...
So when looking at only guards/wings/forwards, Ellis is in the top 8-15 in terms of defensive impact, and among those elite guard/wing/forward defenders, only 1-2 of them are more impactful offensively without being a star/go-to option.
Keon Ellis may well be one of the very best 3&D, roleplaying starters in the league. He needs to be starting and closing out games for us. And considering he's a terrific fit at SG next to either Fox or Monk at PG, I think it would make wayyy more sense to move either Fox or Monk for an upgrade elsewhere (or to somehow convince Monk to accept that he will not be starting or closing out games anymore).
EDIT: To put things into perspective how impactful Ellis is on defense, this is how Ellis and Murray compare across many advanced defensive impact stats:
D-VPM: Ellis = 24th / Murray = 136th
D-EPM: Ellis = 25th / Murray = 128th
D-DPM: Ellis = 38th / Murray = 217th
D-RAPM: Ellis = 34th / Murray = 142nd
D-LEBRON: Ellis = 29th / Murray = 108th
Keon Ellis is an absolute game changer defensively. We need to reward him as such.
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Joshyjosh31
Starter
You’re preaching to the choir I love Ellis and think he should start but that’s fantasy at this point they’re not going back. Even without him starting our our bench sucks no reason why he still shouldn’t be at 25+mpg it’s obvious now that he only did that under Christie because of injuries and we blindly credited Christie for it.
Also you don’t trade fox to appease a role player you win with stars. If fox is traded I don’t see how ellis starts anyways, if I trade fox I calling Miami and begging for Ware and Herro start Ware and Sabonis together with Keegan, Herro, and Monk. But at this point Ware is playing himself out of any deal
twslam07
All-Star
Sure, it might be “fantasy” (which I’ve already admitted) hence why I’m proposing a trade to make it a reality.
I never said to trade Fox to appease a role player. I said you have a perfect complement to either Fox or Monk staring at you in the face. If Monk isn’t willing to come off the bench and not be a closer, we should trade one of Fox or Monk.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Contractually the question marks are certainly Fox and Ellis since they aren't signed long term. Monk and Carter are signed to super friendly team contracts for a decent chunk of time which is going to be a big deal with this new apron stuff so the value should be there. Depending on how the season shakes out is likely whether Fox is on the team or not. That's the big question with all the smoke and right in that range of number of years when all these questions come to the forefront for a player like him. It was the same deal with Peja back in the day almost on the same timeline. Things usually go in about 8 year cycles before the getting's good. The thing is Christie hasn't even really tested the balance out fully though. He's essentially running a 6 1/2 man rotation to get every win he can right now. And as for balance, just like the Nuggets in case people aren't watching, more than a few teams are going smaller towards guard ball.
And also, a lot of teams balance themselves by doing what the Kings are with their young guys, you develop them rather than overpaying on the market or trading better talent for them. Teams that do that almost always end up regretting it.
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Joshyjosh31
Starter
Fox is questionable for tomorrow’s game if we sit him through the all star break that’s four weeks to get right. He was playing very good before the hip injury he’s obviously still hurt the team needs to do what’s right for the future
gunks
Hall of Famer
I doubt this happens but it would be best for Fox and the team if it did.
He started the year playing great ball, which unfortunately was wasted by the team still being coached by Bumblin' Brown. Now he's a banged up liability.
If he sits for a month it would give Monte (and Vivek) a greater sample size to work with re: potentially trading Fox as well. Both without him, and with him playing healthier after an extended rest.
coolhandluke
Starter
Caccia
Starter
In this case it is a right thumb sprain, according to RotoWire. That means both hands are injured. He may want to play, but can he even hold onto the ball or dribble effectively?
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
Or risk hurting it worse. It's time to kick the tires on Monk/Domas again.
Joshyjosh31
Starter
We need the Fox from November to make noise in the playoffs if sitting him now makes it happen we should do it
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Yeah, he's banged up or injured quite frequently. Unfortunately his play style and body type are not really conducive for longevity
If you shut Fox down until the All-Star break, you might as well shut him down for the rest of the season: that many games lost would only give him, like, a two-game margin of error the rest of the way to remain eligible for any post-season awards, which I'm 90 percent sure is the reason why he's still playing right now.
A lot of you have some internalized trauma regarding Klutch which I do not share, particularly when it comes to the notion of them influencing their clients to leave their teams. But I tell you what, let the team bench Fox enough games to make him ineligible, and see if that isn't exactly what happens.
May I please have some clarification as to what you mean by "frequently," in this context? Because Fox has played in nearly 83 percent of the possible games he could have played in his career.
Double-K
Starter
He's injury prone compared to AC Green; he's an iron man compare to Zion Williamson.
#perspective
sactowndog
All-Star
@The_Jamal
curious what you think Fox gives us we don’t also have, and maybe better elsewhere
best guard defender? I have Keon > Carter > Fox
best playmaker? Monk > Sabonis > Fox
steals? Monk > Fox
closing? DeRozan > Fox.
this is not meant to be a slam at Fox as much as Monte’s Roster construction and additions.
If you assume Fox was a
B- defender
B+ playmaker
A closer.
we have guys who duplicate his strengths and magnify his weaknesses surrounding him.
sactowndog
All-Star
I think it depends on match-ups. In some instances you might want DeRozan going ISO against a certain smaller player or Keon is overmatched by the opponent.
Woah, you don't like Monte's roster? Who knew!
And I'm not really sure how to answer this. It's such a weird way to compare players and essentially you're making Fox look like a giant weight holding this team down rather than the all-star/top 15-20 player in the NBA that he is. Go offer every single team one of our guards, for free, on a minimum contract. Is anyone not taking Fox?
Fox is better than all our guards. It's not even close. He's more talented than all of them and he affects the game more than all of them. @twslam07 put together an excellent advanced stat comparison between him and Monk and I'm pretty sure it wasn't all that close. That's not to say the right move isn't to find a deal involving him, especially with his contract situation in limbo while Monk's is taken care of. But it's stupid to try and parse Fox out like he isn't by far and away the best guard on the team. I get annoyed when fans are just ready to dump one of the best players in the league like he's nothing.
And I'm not even defending Fox-Monk starting together. I've literally been saying since Keon broke out last year that he should be the guy next to Fox in the back-court. Eventually, what needs to happen is either Monk swallows his pride, comes off the bench again and Keon starts. That's Christie's job to facilitate that. Or if that's not possible anymore, you trade Fox or Monk.
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