2-0 Weekend!!!!

[Big Cuz 15]

Considering all these wins are really harmful to the future of this team IMO it's fine.

yup... at least some of ya'll will look at it for what it truly is. we're not going anywhere this year. we have a record that is already below .500. great, we won 2 games. doesn't do anything for this team next year. lets root for that mid 1st round pick which will most likely be used on a versatile swingman.

 

[parker]

Either way our future isn't lost with wins. We could never land a top 5 or maybe even a top 10 pick anyway with the other crap teams the NBA has to offer. So whats the difference between 13th pick and 17th pick not much so if you can't root for Oden might as well root for the 8th seed just like we all did last year.

Yeah, Me too!, Ditto

 

[Bricklayer]

how do these threads work?

They didn't. Resulted in one incredibly trite "yay" thread where everything was said within 5 posts, there were 5 more "yays" and then the thread died, while simultaneously resulted in nasty negative threads popping up that never would have under natural circumstances just to provide the alternative. Intentional segregation of bickering children that just reinforced their most shallow instincts and made everbody even more shrill.

 

[Vlade4GM]

but I can gaurantee the players want to win and don't care about anything else.

is that supposed to be surprising?

 

[Vlade4GM]

Awesome. Another "feel-good" thread turned into the ongoing "who are the real fans" thread. I know I don't post here as much as I used to, and maybe that means I shouldn't be so judgemental, but can you tankers please just stay out of the happy threads?

If it will help you sleep better at night, for every thread started that celebrates wins, why don't you just start another counter-thread to whine about how we're one step further from our elusive "franchise player". For example, this thread is titled "2-0 Weekend!!!!" Instead of raining on the parade, you could start a thread called "Oh crap, a 2-0 weekend" or "2 games farther from Oden/Durant". That way, those of us who are happy for our current team can have this thread, and the future-planners can have their own, and we can all be Kings fans at the same time and sing koom-ba-ya.

This ongoing Kingsfans civil war is getting a bit old, no?

if there was as many lose now threads as there were rah rah threads there would be so much more complaining by the rah rah posters because they think they have more right to the way they cheer because it's the norm. if i made a lose now thread for every rah rah threa that came up i'm sure all my threads would get deleted and i'd be told to cut it out, while the rah rah threads will casually fizzle out.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Here's the problem that some people don't understand.....the players can give a rats *** about lottery positioning or tanking the season to get a better draft simply because there is a good chance that quite a few of them won't be around next year.

Fans can gripe about winning a game all they want(I can't believe I just said that) but I can gaurantee the players want to win and don't care about anything else.

Yeah, that may all be true, but here's the thing: the players want what's best for themselves, which isn't even remotely necessarily what's best for the Kings.

Besides which, if the players cared as much about winning as you claim, we wouldn't be discussing tanking in the first place.

 

[ZanesvilleFan]

GO KINGS!!!!

Is all Im saying...

 

[VF21]

I'm weighing in here as an admitted heavyweight, and throwing that weight around.

1) Enough bickering on this topic. Years ago we actually started experimenting with creating "pollyanna" threads as safe harbors for rah rahing. Not sure if there are enough of us left to do that nowadays without zapping board vitality, but if I read one more self righteous comment about how your way of being a fan is the right way, I'm going to vomit. Petty bickering over a dunghill.

2) If you are rooting for the team to win right now, that makes sense as a "fan". Unfortunately it may also be not smart. Hence the problem.

I do understand the awkwardness of that position for a fan -- no fun at all. And so if its easier and cleaner and more "fanlike" to just say "go team!", I understand...even if personally I think you may in effect be inadvertently rooting for your own franchise's demise. But please spare me the righteous indignation for those who are looking deeper. They've got a lot more on their mind than just "go team!" These are dangerous times for this franchise, and (channeling my inner Geoff) while playing the ostrich may be more comfy as a fan, going so far as to try to cull the people watching for approaching lions because you don't want to hear it is...

Just a reminder that the reverse also holds true. Those who are looking deeper should not presume that their opinion is the only one that really matters.

You think the team is going to hell in a handcart. I don't happen to agree. The "people watching for approaching lions" just might be wrong, you know.

I think the bottom line is that if someone starts a thread to celebrate a victory or good play by one of the players, the lion-spotters could easily just skip the thread. In return, it those on watch for the king of beasts are having an in-depth discussion about the perils facing the team, the people who don't think the sky is falling could probably get by perfectly well without adding their two cents in that particular thread, since both sides are pretty well delineated by now.

The truth is most likely somewhere between both poles anyway.

 

[JayBird]

Either way our future isn't lost with wins. We could never land a top 5 or maybe even a top 10 pick anyway with the other crap teams the NBA has to offer. So whats the difference between 13th pick and 17th pick not much so if you can't root for Oden might as well root for the 8th seed just like we all did last year.

Excellent point. The Kings are sitting at .458 right now, good for 11th worse in the league. There really is no reason to believe that we will do any worse than about .440 for the rest of the season. Unless we get ridiculously lucky with those ping pong balls in the lottery, we basically have no chance of landing Oden or Durant. Yeah, I've heard it all season long, "next season's draft is the deepest draft in years, blah blah blah"... but really, after the top 7 or 8 players, how great are the rest? You're not going to convince professional athletes to play to lose, so we as fans can argue till we get sick, and it won't change the fact that we just aren't going to reach the level of suckitude that it will take to land a real impact player.

So forgive those of us who want to celebrate that we just put a major smackdown on those punk *** Lakers, and followed it up with another impressive road victory. Believe me, these 2 wins are not what cost us Oden or Durant.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Excellent point. The Kings are sitting at .458 right now, good for 11th worse in the league. There really is no reason to believe that we will do any worse than about .440 for the rest of the season. Unless we get ridiculously lucky with those ping pong balls in the lottery, we basically have no chance of landing Oden or Durant. Yeah, I've heard it all season long, "next season's draft is the deepest draft in years, blah blah blah"... but really, after the top 7 or 8 players, how great are the rest? You're not going to convince professional athletes to play to lose, so we as fans can argue till we get sick, and it won't change the fact that we just aren't going to reach the level of suckitude that it will take to land a real impact player.

People keep saying that like it's up to Bibby and Artest how many minutes Bibby and Artest play.

I don't expect the players to care about the draft, but, like I said, I don't expect the players to care about anything but themselves when it comes to basketball. And honestly, if they do? I'd be surprised. What I expect is that management should decide to make a commitment to negotiate for draft position, and tell the coach to cut the starters' minutes and play the kids. But management is not going to do that, because they seem to think that everything will be okay if we get to the eighth seed, which I think is akin to trying to slap a band-aid on wrist after your hand's been cut off.

I don't blame the players and, frankly, I'm glad that they still have some pride. I'm even happy to see the team win, at least in the moment... especially when they beat the Lakers. But I think that management is making a big mistake, and I'm not going to stop saying so.

 

[JayBird]

People keep saying that like it's up to Bibby and Artest how many minutes Bibby and Artest play.

I don't expect the players to care about the draft, but, like I said, I don't expect the players to care about anything but themselves when it comes to basketball. And honestly, if they do? I'd be surprised. What I expect is that management should decide to make a commitment to negotiate for draft position, and tell the coach to cut the starters' minutes and play the kids. But management is not going to do that, because they seem to think that everything will be okay if we get to the eighth seed, which I think is akin to trying to slap a band-aid on wrist after your hand's been cut off.

I don't blame the players and, frankly, I'm glad that they still have some pride. I'm even happy to see the team win, at least in the moment... especially when they beat the Lakers. But I think that management is making a big mistake, and I'm not going to stop saying so.

Ok, so then what about this scenario? Management does exactly that, and the starters' minutes gets reduced to 20-25 a game, and people like Price and Williams run the team into the ground. Like you said, the players are only worried about themselves, right? You think that Bibby and Artest will sit idly by and not complain about their minutes? You think they won't demand a trade? Hell, Artest has already voiced concern about not having the ball in his hands enough. How would he feel about being designated to a minimal role?

I already know your answer: who cares? Get rid of the old vets and start fresh, right? I disagree, only because it's just too much of a risk to let proven vets like Artest and Bibby go for a mere HOPE of landing a monster draft pick, or to trade for young talent that MAYBE might prove to be a savior for this franchise a few years down the line. Every successful team in the past few years has had veteran leadership, (Shaq/Kobe in LA, Shaq in Miami, Duncan in SA, etc.) and I just think it's a bad idea to get rid of the few proven players we have on this roster to have a new, young, inexperienced roster.

If we do, we become the New York Knicks. A bunch of exciting young players. And guess what they are doing? Fighting for that #8 seed, which you have shown no interest in doing. Your way might be better for the team 5-10 years down the line, but my way has LOTS of less "maybe's".

 

[Bricklayer]

If we do, we become the New York Knicks. A bunch of exciting young players. And guess what they are doing? Fighting for that #8 seed, which you have shown no interest in doing. Your way might be better for the team 5-10 years down the line, but my way has LOTS of less "maybe's".

Including the "maybe" of winning a title.

Its actually not that hard to be mediocre. Playing for 2nd is easy.

BTW, your "veteran" led teams all ALSO had a superstar kid...or two, picked up in the draft lottery. People will do absolute sommersaults to avoid acknowledging that. Actually, that is how the Spurs got Duncan too. And the Mavs got Dirk. And the Suns got Amare/Marion. And...etc. etc.

Not sure I understand your invovcation of the Knicks BTW, right now we ARE the Knicks. They have done it all wrong, and only this year are they for the first time moving towards a true rebuild. That's not a team full of young top draft picks. Its a team full of overpaid vets (being wittled down) castoffs, later draft picks etc. There are the prototypical team always pointed to for their FAILURE to truly tear down and rebuild.

 

[JayBird]

BTW, your "veteran" led teams all ALSO had a superstar kid...or two, picked up in the draft lottery. People will do absolute sommersaults to avoid acknowledging that.

I'll acknowledge that.

I'll also point out that the Kings landed Gerald Wallace in the first round as well, and he's damn near averaging a double double. For the Bobcats.

We pissed away one opportunity for a stud in the draft by sticking with Anthony Peeler over Wallace, we were lucky to get another steal in Kevin Martin. The young talent has been there, it just hasn't been used effectively, IMO. Obviously if we land Oden or Durant, they'll be locked up for years cuz even our front office isn't that stupid. But who's to say what they will do with their #10-#15 pick, which as I pointed out earlier, is what the Kings are realistically facing this year. Is it really worth losing an Artest or a Bibby, vets who still have at least 5 solid years left in the league? IMO, the answer is no.

 

[Purple Reign]

What happened to just good old fashion winning!!!! "Our" team just went 2-0 on a road trip that I thought was going to be the beginning of our demise for this season. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind being in the lottery. But man, these last two games have just pumped me up.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I already know your answer: who cares? Get rid of the old vets and start fresh, right? I disagree, only because it's just too much of a risk to let proven vets like Artest and Bibby go for a mere HOPE of landing a monster draft pick, or to trade for young talent that MAYBE might prove to be a savior for this franchise a few years down the line. Every successful team in the past few years has had veteran leadership, (Shaq/Kobe in LA, Shaq in Miami, Duncan in SA, etc.) and I just think it's a bad idea to get rid of the few proven players we have on this roster to have a new, young, inexperienced roster.

If we do, we become the New York Knicks. A bunch of exciting young players. And guess what they are doing? Fighting for that #8 seed, which you have shown no interest in doing. Your way might be better for the team 5-10 years down the line, but my way has LOTS of less "maybe's".

You are experiencing a concept error: first of all, as Bricklayer already pointed out, teams like Portland, New Orleans and even Orlando are much better examples for the point you were trying to make than the Knicks. Secondly, the #8 seed is an accomplishment for a young team specifically because they are a young team that is coming up from the depths. We're not coming up, we're going down. We have a team whose centerpieces and longest-tenured players are the ones that are left over from when we were a good team. We're a team on the decline; our goal should be getting back to elite status, not trying to tread water and keep the status quo. Nobody that's going to be available at the 11-16 spots are going to help this team become elite again. Honestly, I'm flabbergasted that you can't tell the difference between the two situations.

And here's another concept error: I've seen some people talking about how we have picked up good players in the draft, but that's not the point: the point is that those guys aren't stars. As I've stated in previous threads, I only define a star as someone a winning team can be BUILT around; Josh Howard is a great player, but you can't build a winning team around him, same for Tony Parker, same for Mehmet Okur, same for Gerald Wallace... And the same for Kevin Martin, unless you want the Kings to be the Bucks of the west, because that's about as far as a team built around a one-dimensional shooter tends to go: BEST-case scenario, he becomes the next Reggie Miller, and the Kings eventually become the 99-00 Pacers, but even Reggie had Smits and Davis.

We might very well get another steal like Wallace, but the next Gerald Wallace ain't gonna cut it when our goal is to get back to the elite. Furthermore, as good as late-round picks like Martin and Wallace and Parker and Howard are, there is still a quantifiable difference between guys like them and cornerstones like Duncan and James and Wade. You're right, we might get another steal late in the draft, but Pippen don't get you the championship, Jordan does, and you're not going to get Jordan with the 23rd pick.

Do you know how many times in the history of the NBA that the Finals MVP was a guy taken outside of the top ten? Four. So perhaps the next time you talk about "maybes," you might like to think about that.

 

[parker]

if there was as many lose now threads as there were rah rah threads there would be so much more complaining by the rah rah posters because they think they have more right to the way they cheer because it's the norm. if i made a lose now thread for every rah rah threa that came up i'm sure all my threads would get deleted and i'd be told to cut it out, while the rah rah threads will casually fizzle out.

Uhm, almost every thread has someone making a lose now comment and those comments are just as self-righteous as the rah rah comments.

 

[JayBird]

You are experiencing a concept error: first of all, as Bricklayer already pointed out, teams like Portland, New Orleans and even Orlando are much better examples for the point you were trying to make than the Knicks. Secondly, the #8 seed is an accomplishment for a young team specifically because they are a young team that is coming up from the depths. We're not coming up, we're going down. We have a team whose centerpieces and longest-tenured players are the ones that are left over from when we were a good team. We're a team on the decline; our goal should be getting back to elite status, not trying to tread water and keep the status quo. Nobody that's going to be available at the 11-16 spots are going to help this team become elite again. Honestly, I'm flabbergasted that you can't tell the difference between the two situations.

And here's another concept error: I've seen some people talking about how we have picked up good players in the draft, but that's not the point: the point is that those guys aren't stars. As I've stated in previous threads, I only define a star as someone a winning team can be BUILT around; Josh Howard is a great player, but you can't build a winning team around him, same for Tony Parker, same for Mehmet Okur, same for Gerald Wallace... And the same for Kevin Martin, unless you want the Kings to be the Bucks of the west, because that's about as far as a team built around a one-dimensional shooter tends to go: BEST-case scenario, he becomes the next Reggie Miller, and the Kings eventually become the 99-00 Pacers, but even Reggie had Smits and Davis.

We might very well get another steal like Wallace, but the next Gerald Wallace ain't gonna cut it when our goal is to get back to the elite. Furthermore, as good as late-round picks like Martin and Wallace and Parker and Howard are, there is still a quantifiable difference between guys like them and cornerstones like Duncan and James and Wade. You're right, we might get another steal late in the draft, but Pippen don't get you the championship, Jordan does, and you're not going to get Jordan with the 23rd pick.

Do you know how many times in the history of the NBA that the Finals MVP was a guy taken outside of the top ten? Four. So perhaps the next time you talk about "maybes," you might like to think about that.

You're right, you're not going to get Jordan with the 23rd pick. And the guys you mentioned - Duncan, Lebron, Wade - were all #1 or #2. I don't care how much this team tanks, we are not even remotely close to a top 5 pick. You need to get over this dream of landing a "cornerstone" player in next year's draft, it's not happening.

And yeah, snagging that 8th seed and becoming fodder for the Mavs in the first round won't do much. But neither will getting the 11th pick and getting Joe Blow swingman, who we will probably end up trading before he makes a name for himself in this league. As sad as it is, it's a lose-lose situation for the Kings, because we're nowhere near elite status, and we're nowhere near top pick status either. We're in that middle ground where nothing matters, so as long as nothing matters, why not celebrate a 2-0 weekend - a weekend which includes a win over the devils incarnates - instead of dissecting how much beating our arch-rivals is going to hurt our non-existant chances of landing Oden/Durant?

 

[Vlade4GM]

You're right, you're not going to get Jordan with the 23rd pick. And the guys you mentioned - Duncan, Lebron, Wade - were all #1 or #2. I don't care how much this team tanks, we are not even remotely close to a top 5 pick. You need to get over this dream of landing a "cornerstone" player in next year's draft, it's not happening.

And yeah, snagging that 8th seed and becoming fodder for the Mavs in the first round won't do much. But neither will getting the 11th pick and getting Joe Blow swingman, who we will probably end up trading before he makes a name for himself in this league. As sad as it is, it's a lose-lose situation for the Kings, because we're nowhere near elite status, and we're nowhere near top pick status either. We're in that middle ground where nothing matters, so as long as nothing matters, why not celebrate a 2-0 weekend - a weekend which includes a win over the devils incarnates - instead of dissecting how much beating our arch-rivals is going to hurt our non-existant chances of landing Oden/Durant?

a first round exit has zero value. an 11th pick who the hell knows what would come of it, but a few extra spots no matter how little value you see it as has more value than a first round exit

 

[Bricklayer]

Here's the reward for "winning" the #8 seed btw: 1) NO chance whatsoever at getting lucky in the lottery and grabbing a franchise guy; 2) the Dallas Mavericks, who, btw, have won 50 of their last 55 games and are currently on their third winning streak this eason of 12 or more (an NBA record). If they had not taken the preseason off and started the season 0-4, they'd be in position to threaten the Bulls 72-10.

 

[acisking]

Here's the reward for "winning" the #8 seed btw: 1) NO chance whatsoever at getting lucky in the lottery and grabbing a franchise guy; 2) the Dallas Mavericks, who, btw, have won 50 of their last 55 games and are currently on their third winning streak this eason of 12 or more (an NBA record). If they had not taken the preseason off and started the season 0-4, they'd be in position to threaten the Bulls 72-10.

And thats not even mentioning the problems that would follow...trying to resign/trade diminishing veterans, being stuck with huge contracts and undesirable personal that make free agent signing impossible, and worst of all, a complete lack of any real positive future.

 

[JayBird]

Here's the reward for "winning" the #8 seed btw: 1) NO chance whatsoever at getting lucky in the lottery and grabbing a franchise guy; 2) the Dallas Mavericks, who, btw, have won 50 of their last 55 games and are currently on their third winning streak this eason of 12 or more (an NBA record). If they had not taken the preseason off and started the season 0-4, they'd be in position to threaten the Bulls 72-10.

And here's our reward for "tanking". A #10-#15 pick, who will get about as much time as Quincy Douby before being shipped off for a future pick or some other crap. Look, I'm not disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing, and I understand what you and Slim are trying to say. All I'm saying is that both situations suck, but at least making the playoffs gives us a little bit more excitement.


Yeah, the Mavs are probably going to embarrass us. But if you remember, the Spurs were supposed to embarrass us last year, and we gave them one hell of a series. As a fan, all I want is for the season to be extended as long as possible, and for us to win as many games as possible. I really don't give a crap about Joe Blow swingman.

 

[jon e]

it was jason hart who was bringin us down!

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

And here's our reward for "tanking". A #10-#15 pick, who will get about as much time as Quincy Douby before being shipped off for a future pick or some other crap. Look, I'm not disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing, and I understand what you and Slim are trying to say. All I'm saying is that both situations suck, but at least making the playoffs gives us a little bit more excitement.

There's no excitement to getting blown out in the first round. That was exciting when we were playing just our third playoff series in fourteen years; it's not exciting when you've been in the playoffs for eight years, and another first round exit will mark your third in a row. The first round is a goal for a team on the rise; this is not a team on the rise, it's a team that has been on the brink. When you've been on the brink, the goal is a championship, not the first round, and if you can't win in the short term (and we can't), then you should be trying to win in the long term.

A 10-15 pick is not the result of tanking. You know what it is? That's the result of management waiting all the way until we're officially mathematically eliminated before they finally realize what some of us have been saying for four months now: that this is NOT a playoff team, and we never should have been fighting for a playoff spot in the first place.

If things keep going the way they are, we're going to end up with, like, the thirteenth pick, and there are going to be people here that say, "see, that's why tanking doesn't work; that's what happens." Except that's not what happens when you tank; that's what happens when you DON'T tank... That's what happens when you don't commit to a decision until forces outside of your control make the decision for you. Like I've said before already, the only outcome that would be worse than trying to make the playoffs would be trying to make the playoffs and *just* missing... because then, the OMGZURNOTAREELFANIFUWANTTHETEAM2LOOZ people don't get their playoff series to watch us be first-round-and-out... again... AND we don't get a good draft pick. If management had committed to a long-term plan three months ago, there wouldn't be any of this reverse-defeatist "well, we won't win the lottery anyway, so why bother?" stuff.

But, you know what? We can still get good position, so let's not act like it's too late: there's only six games between us and that team that would, theoretically, have the third pick in the draft; management still has time to make the right decision for the long term.

 

[Jerryaki]

And here's our reward for "tanking". A #10-#15 pick, who will get about as much time as Quincy Douby before being shipped off for a future pick or some other crap.

how interesting that none of us know what douby might actually be capable of...because we're playing the vets to chase that 8th playoff spot.

 

[Miles and Miles]

Great job Kings (back on topic). 3 straight pulls us within 2 games of the 8th (and 7th) playoff spot. Lets go for 7 straight and get Jerry that mohawk he has always wanted. Here's to rooting for the Kings and against the Clippers, Nuggets, and Hornets (keep checking the scoreboard) to move us up.

 

[Kingster]

On the Bright Side...

Along with others, I've written a lot of posts on why the middle course is the worst course for this team. I want to leave that aside for the moment. I want to put in the best plug I can think of for getting to the playoffs: Kevin Martin and Garcia will get more playoff experience. They can't get playoff experience, an entirely different intensity of play, without being in the playoffs (that's my Reynolds impersonation). Personally, I could care less about getting to the playoffs. I want a championship. Period. But if we do get there, the two guys I will be routing for the most are Martin and Garcia -- they are the future.

 

[Kingster]

But, you know what? We can still get good position, so let's not act like it's too late: there's only six games between us and that team that would, theoretically, have the third pick in the draft; management still has time to make the right decision for the long term.

If you look at the remaining March and April schedule, it's brutal. The Kings could play well and still lose 70% of their upcoming games.

 

[VF21]

And considering the late-breaking announcement, it could be even worse...

 

[Cal-Kings]

Here's the reward for "winning" the #8 seed btw: 1) NO chance whatsoever at getting lucky in the lottery and grabbing a franchise guy; 2) the Dallas Mavericks, who, btw, have won 50 of their last 55 games and are currently on their third winning streak this eason of 12 or more (an NBA record). If they had not taken the preseason off and started the season 0-4, they'd be in position to threaten the Bulls 72-10.

When was the last time Dallas had a lottery pick?

Yet they've managed to rebuild their entire team through free agency.

And they've managed to go up and down and up again while never having to tank a season.

Free agents want to play for a team with a winning attitude. Not for a team that's rebuilding through the draft, waiting for 4-5 years before ever expecting to win.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

When was the last time Dallas had a lottery pick?

Yet they've managed to rebuild their entire team through free agency.

And they've managed to go up and down and up again while never having to tank a season.

Uhm... they didn't rebuild their entire team through free agency; they built their team around their superstar player... whom they got in the lottery. That's the whole point; complimentary players are two a penny in the NBA. Superstars are not.