Kings sign Landry (part 2)
- Thread starter M_Barragan
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I'm not being sarcastic at all, but don't you think having team chemistry actually will make it easier to acquire the pieces we actually need? Don't you think when players are considering a move to another team they look at how well that team plays together?
I think a lot of fans underestimate how lucky we were to have the perfect storm of both talent and chemistry on THE TEAM. As you said, we had the star talent surrounded by the right role players AND it was obvious they loved playing the game together. I just hope those times aren't gone forever.
I'm still optimistic that this is all a work in progress. It took a while to build that team and I certainly never thought it would all come together so perfectly. Your own signature says it all "Our franchise literally is about to rise from the ashes." I believe that and I truly believe that is what PDA and all concerned want too. He strikes me as someone who doesn't do anything without a plan so I'm taking that leap of faith and trusting that he has one.
I think a lot of fans underestimate how lucky we were to have the perfect storm of both talent and chemistry on THE TEAM. As you said, we had the star talent surrounded by the right role players AND it was obvious they loved playing the game together. I just hope those times aren't gone forever.
I'm still optimistic that this is all a work in progress. It took a while to build that team and I certainly never thought it would all come together so perfectly. Your own signature says it all "Our franchise literally is about to rise from the ashes." I believe that and I truly believe that is what PDA and all concerned want too. He strikes me as someone who doesn't do anything without a plan so I'm taking that leap of faith and trusting that he has one.
Sorry. There are one or two things I would like to rewind and "un-say" but what's done is done. I stand by the position that the new regime deserves much more benefit of the doubt, and I do enjoy sarcasm a great deal (giving and receiving), but I'll recognize that it is not everyone's cup of tea.
I'm just disappointed and a little angry that some people are basically steeped in negativity over Evans, the Igoudala thing, and Landry. I feel disappointed that PDA has to be sitting with an 0-2 count and a very short leash where so many fans are concerned.
I'm a big Kings fan. I had just hoped for more optimistic anticipation about a new direction for the franchise - sad about how the buzz is being smashed over some personnel moves, and honestly surprised that there is not more tolerance for dissenting views here.
I do a lot of sarcasm and do it with a straight face - and I'll watch it or at least dial it back for a while.
Starting..... right..... now.
I'm just disappointed and a little angry that some people are basically steeped in negativity over Evans, the Igoudala thing, and Landry. I feel disappointed that PDA has to be sitting with an 0-2 count and a very short leash where so many fans are concerned.
I'm a big Kings fan. I had just hoped for more optimistic anticipation about a new direction for the franchise - sad about how the buzz is being smashed over some personnel moves, and honestly surprised that there is not more tolerance for dissenting views here.
I do a lot of sarcasm and do it with a straight face - and I'll watch it or at least dial it back for a while.
Starting..... right..... now.
Of course a FA will look at team chemistry but so much goes into chemistry and playing well aside from high character guys. The coaching, the roles, the balance of the roster, the talent surrounding the star talent and how much star talent you have usually are more deciding factors in how successful a team will be, and when you're successful and winning then chemistry usually improves.
Curry/Klay/Lee aren't suddenly higher character guys than they were when GS was losing two years ago. But with a better coach, better role players and better utilization of their talent, they then became more of a destination. It's the talent and how it was used/put together which is a bigger reason why a guy like Iggy now wanted to go there. You need to win for chemistry/character to matter, yet winning gets tougher when you swap star talent for role players and if you're not winning and made the goal of winning tougher, the importance of chemistry on that squad dwindles.
I don't see many FA's going to losing teams with less star talent because the chemistry is better. But if you have star talent and are winning, good chemistry can be more attractive. Key is surrounding your star talent with high character guys and trying to improve team chemistry, not shipping out star talent for role players and using improved chemistry/higher character guys as the reasoning behind it, as if you have less talent and aren't winning the chemistry usually isn't that good.
Curry/Klay/Lee aren't suddenly higher character guys than they were when GS was losing two years ago. But with a better coach, better role players and better utilization of their talent, they then became more of a destination. It's the talent and how it was used/put together which is a bigger reason why a guy like Iggy now wanted to go there. You need to win for chemistry/character to matter, yet winning gets tougher when you swap star talent for role players and if you're not winning and made the goal of winning tougher, the importance of chemistry on that squad dwindles.
I don't see many FA's going to losing teams with less star talent because the chemistry is better. But if you have star talent and are winning, good chemistry can be more attractive. Key is surrounding your star talent with high character guys and trying to improve team chemistry, not shipping out star talent for role players and using improved chemistry/higher character guys as the reasoning behind it, as if you have less talent and aren't winning the chemistry usually isn't that good.
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Lame. Another "star" argument in regards to Tyreke. Like I keep saying and like others keep saying, Tyreke isn't a star. He's just not and he's probably never going to be one. Is he a good player? Yes maybe even a very good player but he's not a star game-changer that leads his teams to a lot of wins or makes his teammates better.
You know how I know that Tyreke Evans isn't a star???? Because several NBA GM's that get paid a lot of money and look at this stuff (all day long every day), all agree he isn't a star. You know how I know they don't view Tyreke as a star......because other than New Orleans nobody else tried to get Tyreke and certainly nobody else offered him star type money.
4 years/44 million isn't even a contract befitting of a "star", so if Tyreke is a star and it's so obvious why didn't any other teams offer more than New Orleans. The contract that Tyreke signed could have been absorbed by most of the teams in the league in a sign and trade. Why didn't any of the good teams around the league try to do a sign and trade with the Kings? If Tyreke is such a winner and difference maker you'd think he'd get some interest from some teams that wanted to make that "next level" move. The Kings had cap-space and could have done a sign and trade with just about anybody......so there was nothing stopping 20+ teams in this league from trying to get Tyreke in a sign and trade. If Tyreke was thought of as a star by most NBA GM's then surely more of them would have made a move for him and his "bargain star contract". Yet they didn't....
Bottom line is that either the vast majority of NBA GM's are terrible at their job and just can't see star talent when it's right and front of them and available at a bargain........................or perhaps (and I know this is just a perhaps) some Kings fans are delusional and vastly over-rate their "star" player who helped them to several 20 something win seasons. I know who I'd bet my money on.
PS: The Warriors got better in large part by getting rid of their moody ball-hog Monta Ellis. That is where so much of the improved chemistry came from.
You know how I know that Tyreke Evans isn't a star???? Because several NBA GM's that get paid a lot of money and look at this stuff (all day long every day), all agree he isn't a star. You know how I know they don't view Tyreke as a star......because other than New Orleans nobody else tried to get Tyreke and certainly nobody else offered him star type money.
4 years/44 million isn't even a contract befitting of a "star", so if Tyreke is a star and it's so obvious why didn't any other teams offer more than New Orleans. The contract that Tyreke signed could have been absorbed by most of the teams in the league in a sign and trade. Why didn't any of the good teams around the league try to do a sign and trade with the Kings? If Tyreke is such a winner and difference maker you'd think he'd get some interest from some teams that wanted to make that "next level" move. The Kings had cap-space and could have done a sign and trade with just about anybody......so there was nothing stopping 20+ teams in this league from trying to get Tyreke in a sign and trade. If Tyreke was thought of as a star by most NBA GM's then surely more of them would have made a move for him and his "bargain star contract". Yet they didn't....
Bottom line is that either the vast majority of NBA GM's are terrible at their job and just can't see star talent when it's right and front of them and available at a bargain........................or perhaps (and I know this is just a perhaps) some Kings fans are delusional and vastly over-rate their "star" player who helped them to several 20 something win seasons. I know who I'd bet my money on.
PS: The Warriors got better in large part by getting rid of their moody ball-hog Monta Ellis. That is where so much of the improved chemistry came from.
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I spent a large part of the day reading through the Landry thread and agree things need to calm down. But it looks bad when u seem to stand up for the side that call other fans ungrateful or question fan hood as well as calling players dopey mouth breathers or dufus vs those that call the gm dumb based on moves he made.
I am trying my best to be fair. I'm sorry if it's not good enough. If you've read all the posts, you know there were way too many nasty comments for me to even attempt to address them all. As a moderator and a Kings fan, I tried very hard all day yesterday to just let people vent - even though some of the comments were very hard to read. I'm human, too, you know. And a couple of the PMs that were sent to me contained the most foul and vulgar comments i have ever encountered, either on the Internet or in real life.
If my attempts to at least calm the waters a little bit make me look bad, then I guess that's how it's gonna have to be. I can only do what I can do.
If my attempts to at least calm the waters a little bit make me look bad, then I guess that's how it's gonna have to be. I can only do what I can do.
Atlanta too and yet neither one of them appears to have even made an offer. If they did apparently it wasn't a very good offer or we would have heard about it. If it wasn't as much as 4/44 then it clearly wasn't star type money.
I'm not saying teams would not want Tyreke Evans. Of course they would, he's a good player and as I have already said I'm sure he could help a team like the Spurs as their 3rd or 4th best option.
But clearly nobody else wanted him at 4 years/44 Million. As I have already stated 4 years/44 million is not star money anyways. It's good or really good player money but not "star money".
And that is my entire argument, nobody in the league offered Tyreke "star money" and nobody besides New Orleans even tried to get him at just below "star money" so how exactly is Tyreke a star or star in the making if nobody is willing to pay him like one?
I'm not saying teams would not want Tyreke Evans. Of course they would, he's a good player and as I have already said I'm sure he could help a team like the Spurs as their 3rd or 4th best option.
But clearly nobody else wanted him at 4 years/44 Million. As I have already stated 4 years/44 million is not star money anyways. It's good or really good player money but not "star money".
And that is my entire argument, nobody in the league offered Tyreke "star money" and nobody besides New Orleans even tried to get him at just below "star money" so how exactly is Tyreke a star or star in the making if nobody is willing to pay him like one?
You are correct about star talent, but I'll add star talent that fits together. We have a star in Cousins. FO is going with McLemore as the other star piece over Evans. I don't believe Evans is the piece. I hope that McLemore is. Before anyone replies that Wade and Lebron don't fit all that well....Evans is far from that type of player.
The FO seems to be focusing on high character instead of basketball ability. The comment that most of have used, "there must be a bigger move in mind and therefore these mediocre moves are just fine" has been used before when Petrie was in charge. Inevitably, the big move never occurred and we filled the rest of our roster with dreck. Let those of us who wish to comment about the present, comment. The implication that something big is about to happen has not happened and until it does, I think this team is becoming a nice collection of choir boys perhaps similar to Vivek's personality but they are also mimicking Vivek by having less basketball skill than we could have either maintained or obtained. The change of culture does not necessarily mean we will have a better team and Vivek said that before this whole process began. He warned us that the original goal was not necessarily to win. Remember? He wanted us to have patience with the assumption that this new culture will eventually lead to winning.
I'll wait as I have no options. In the mean time, I will speak out.
I'll wait as I have no options. In the mean time, I will speak out.
I won't compare Landry to Hayes. Entirely different players. Fact is, Malone really likes Landry. And to say it didn't work before, and that means it won't work this time just doesn't fly with me. And really what I'm saying isn't really about Landry, but about leadership and defining roles. The last time Landry was here, we had a different coach, and Cousins was basicly a rookie. Cousins was also having a lot of trouble with Westphal and vice versa. It was a bad atmosphere both on and off the court. And Landry was in the middle of all that. So I think its fair to say that under a different coach, that defines everyone's role, the outcome could be entirely different.
I hate to mix sports, but Harbough came to the 49'ers, and with almost the same team, immediately turned that team around. He did make some changes. Some bad parts, some of which were popular, were removed, and replaced with what was thought by many at the time as inferior to those that were removed. The entire atmosphere, and direction of the team was changed.
I hate to mix sports, but Harbough came to the 49'ers, and with almost the same team, immediately turned that team around. He did make some changes. Some bad parts, some of which were popular, were removed, and replaced with what was thought by many at the time as inferior to those that were removed. The entire atmosphere, and direction of the team was changed.
Good, I'm glad you said it. Because that's really what this is about. It isn't about Pete being a terrible GM, we don't know that yet. But he's not infallible, we don't know that yet either. It's about Tyreke Evans -- if he's a star he was worth keeping. If he's not a star, he still may have been worth keeping at $11M. Did we have the money to spend? Yes we did. It's dishonest to say we didn't. Did we need to change the culture? Yes we did, but was Tyreke a part of the problem or not? It's all just speculation on our part. But all of these little side points are ancillary to the only one that actually matters. If Tyreke is a star in the making than Pete screwed up, plain and simple. Only time will tell.
Exactly. We're pretty much on the same page here. I really liked Tyreke but didn't see him as the potential star that others did. It doesn't make them or me right or wrong. Differing opinions.
Back in the day, there were those who were convinced Kevin Martin would never start for a team, he would never make good money and he would most certainly never receive a second contract. Kevin has just inked a deal that will bring his total NBA earnings to somewhere between $85 and $90 million. Not bad for someone who many thought had no future in the league. (I was and remain a big Martin fan by the way and continue to keep in touch with his family after all this time...)
What's my point? Different people have different and passionate views of certain players. Lots of us liked Evans but didn't see all the potential that others are convinced is there. Time will tell...
Bottom line is that it's all moot now anyway. The front office has put all their chips on #15. If we want to win, we'd better hope they're right.
Back in the day, there were those who were convinced Kevin Martin would never start for a team, he would never make good money and he would most certainly never receive a second contract. Kevin has just inked a deal that will bring his total NBA earnings to somewhere between $85 and $90 million. Not bad for someone who many thought had no future in the league. (I was and remain a big Martin fan by the way and continue to keep in touch with his family after all this time...)
What's my point? Different people have different and passionate views of certain players. Lots of us liked Evans but didn't see all the potential that others are convinced is there. Time will tell...
Bottom line is that it's all moot now anyway. The front office has put all their chips on #15. If we want to win, we'd better hope they're right.
Mike Malone knows Landry better than anyone. He was with him in NO and GS. Malone knows what role Landry will play and it was obviously his choice to bring him back here.
At any rate, having Landry on our team is not bad thing. He comes to work and brings it every game from what I can remember. We don't know how it will all end up but there is a plan and I'm willing to see it through before i judge.
At any rate, having Landry on our team is not bad thing. He comes to work and brings it every game from what I can remember. We don't know how it will all end up but there is a plan and I'm willing to see it through before i judge.
This time we agree and I agree with everything you just said. Pete could very well end up looking bad on this and if he does a lot of other GM's are going to be kicking themselves because they all could have had Tyreke at a somewhat reasonable price.
This really wasn't about money because like I said 4/44 isn't even "star" money anyways. That's a contract that hurts you if you are wrong but it doesn't kill you. I really think this comes down to PDA just thinking that Tyreke isn't that good, not a good fit for this roster, and most importantly I think that PDA felt Tyreke would hinder the development of McLemore and maybe Cousins too.
Will definitely be interesting to see what happens.
Good or bad this is one of those moves that people will remember. A shrewd move this early into a GM's tenure is one that people will still be talking about in a few years.
This really wasn't about money because like I said 4/44 isn't even "star" money anyways. That's a contract that hurts you if you are wrong but it doesn't kill you. I really think this comes down to PDA just thinking that Tyreke isn't that good, not a good fit for this roster, and most importantly I think that PDA felt Tyreke would hinder the development of McLemore and maybe Cousins too.
Will definitely be interesting to see what happens.
Good or bad this is one of those moves that people will remember. A shrewd move this early into a GM's tenure is one that people will still be talking about in a few years.
Tyreke is 23 years old. How many 23 year old 'stars' are there in the NBA? 1? 2? I think the argument is, other than DMC he was our best chance at having a second all-star caliber player. Which you need in the NBA to have a good team. We've now shipped him off for someone that will never be an all-star, on a 1-year contract so we could have the cap space to sign an average under-sized power forward who didn't work here the first time. Arguing over the semantics of whether Tyreke is currently a star is not the issue here.
You know what? I apologize. I never meant to criticize you as a moderator because you and all the other mods are quite fair being. lenient when needed and punish those when needed. I just said it "seemed" like you were on one side based on you quoting jalfa when the person they were talking about was way more mean/slanderous and needed that "tone it down warning". It just struck me as an odd thing since you are normally very level headed. After thinking about it you prob just quoted the last person to comment on the situation.
You're in need of a lesson on what qualifies as star talent.
In 2009-10, here's the players who averaged 20/5/5 or better:
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Tyreke Evans
In 2010-11, here's the players who averaged 17/4/4 or better:
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Russel Westbrook
Dwayne Wade
Deron Williams
Joe Johnson
Tyreke Evans
In 2011-12, here's the players who averaged 16/4/4 or better:
Lebron James
Russel Westbrook
Dwayne Wade
Paul Pierce
Kobe Bryant
John Wall
Tyreke Evans
In 2011-12, here's the players who averaged 15/3/4 or better(and this of course being the season where his usage % and mins were career lows and overall numbers severely hampered by his idiot coach). Didn't not post PF's or C's:
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
James Harden
Russel Westbrook
Stephen Curry
Dwayne Wade
Paul George
Paul Pierce
Chandlers Parsons
John Wall
Jrue Holiday
Tyreke Evans
No matter the year, no matter the toxic environment or idiot coach and his idiotic use of Reke, year in year out his statistical achievements are the definition of star talent, all you have to look at is the company he's part of, and this is with his minutes and usage% being cut down drastically and his role/mins/sub pattern changing weekly.
Then you consider FG% this last season among guards who shot 47% or better and took 10+ shot per game:
Tony Parker
Dwayne Wade
Rajon Rondo
Chris Paul
Tyreke Evans
Yes, the guy blasted for not having a midrange game is top 5.
Reke's PER this last season with Smart hampering him was 15th in the league among all guards, sandwiched between Conley and Rondo.
Rounding down Reke's career averages to 17/4/4 plus 1.4 SPG and .4 BPG to get a better picture of his all round contributions, this is the list of guards who've accomplished the same since Reke entered the league:
Dwayne Wade
Tyreke Evans
We can argue star or not, which I don't think he is right now, or star talent or not, but it's clear, clear a day Reke has star talent. Not recognizing that, then proceeding to ignore the toxic environment which he has been engulfed in for multiple seasons, his role always changing, and acting as if the entire picture has been painted is an incredibly big mistake. It's not about whether Reke is a star today or not, it's about the talent, the elite talent he has and can that be successful in a more professional environment. That yourself and others have convinced yourselves it can't and are more than willing to give up on this type of talent in this type of market, at age 23 no less, for a guy like Vasquez is more an indictment on your understanding of what an elite is or isn't as well as has that talent been given a chance to flourish. You keep making blanket statements which don't touch on circumstances nor look past the end result under Keith Smart, a grave mistake.
The quite pathetic aspect to all this, every other player in the select company above is a player kings fans would not hesitate to add to this roster. Sure they all have strengths and weaknesses, some more than others, but for years kings fans have concentrated on what Reke can't do rather than what he can, and what he can do, make no mistake about it, is in elite company.
In 2009-10, here's the players who averaged 20/5/5 or better:
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Tyreke Evans
In 2010-11, here's the players who averaged 17/4/4 or better:
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Russel Westbrook
Dwayne Wade
Deron Williams
Joe Johnson
Tyreke Evans
In 2011-12, here's the players who averaged 16/4/4 or better:
Lebron James
Russel Westbrook
Dwayne Wade
Paul Pierce
Kobe Bryant
John Wall
Tyreke Evans
In 2011-12, here's the players who averaged 15/3/4 or better(and this of course being the season where his usage % and mins were career lows and overall numbers severely hampered by his idiot coach). Didn't not post PF's or C's:
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
James Harden
Russel Westbrook
Stephen Curry
Dwayne Wade
Paul George
Paul Pierce
Chandlers Parsons
John Wall
Jrue Holiday
Tyreke Evans
No matter the year, no matter the toxic environment or idiot coach and his idiotic use of Reke, year in year out his statistical achievements are the definition of star talent, all you have to look at is the company he's part of, and this is with his minutes and usage% being cut down drastically and his role/mins/sub pattern changing weekly.
Then you consider FG% this last season among guards who shot 47% or better and took 10+ shot per game:
Tony Parker
Dwayne Wade
Rajon Rondo
Chris Paul
Tyreke Evans
Yes, the guy blasted for not having a midrange game is top 5.
Reke's PER this last season with Smart hampering him was 15th in the league among all guards, sandwiched between Conley and Rondo.
Rounding down Reke's career averages to 17/4/4 plus 1.4 SPG and .4 BPG to get a better picture of his all round contributions, this is the list of guards who've accomplished the same since Reke entered the league:
Dwayne Wade
Tyreke Evans
We can argue star or not, which I don't think he is right now, or star talent or not, but it's clear, clear a day Reke has star talent. Not recognizing that, then proceeding to ignore the toxic environment which he has been engulfed in for multiple seasons, his role always changing, and acting as if the entire picture has been painted is an incredibly big mistake. It's not about whether Reke is a star today or not, it's about the talent, the elite talent he has and can that be successful in a more professional environment. That yourself and others have convinced yourselves it can't and are more than willing to give up on this type of talent in this type of market, at age 23 no less, for a guy like Vasquez is more an indictment on your understanding of what an elite is or isn't as well as has that talent been given a chance to flourish. You keep making blanket statements which don't touch on circumstances nor look past the end result under Keith Smart, a grave mistake.
The quite pathetic aspect to all this, every other player in the select company above is a player kings fans would not hesitate to add to this roster. Sure they all have strengths and weaknesses, some more than others, but for years kings fans have concentrated on what Reke can't do rather than what he can, and what he can do, make no mistake about it, is in elite company.
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This is a good article on Landry signing and the current state of the Kings. It's from another fan site, but I enjoyed it.
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2013/7/7/4501536/will-this-time-with-carl-landry-be-better
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2013/7/7/4501536/will-this-time-with-carl-landry-be-better