A Sonics fan's point of view

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pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
The one thing hoopster has right is that Stern has always loved Sacramento. Totally true.

Remember all the times Stern rigged the lottery for us?

Magic vs. Jordan in all those all star games Sac has hosted?

How about the time he rigged the playoffs to put us in the Finals vs. the superior team from the big market.

I can still remember shaking his hand at the end of the motorcade as the trophy was paraded from Arco to the State Capitol like it was yesterday.

oh wait...
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
You know what team I'm sure Stern absolutely loves? The Spurs. Small market team that had success with a clean, cut marketable and talented big man in David Robinson and then even more success with another clean cut, even more talented big man in Tim Duncan. No off the court issues, stability, championships and a real sense of team for the community to connect with. A model franchise for how small markets can compete with LA, NYC and Chicago teams.

And I guarantee that Stern loved the Kings of the early 2000s. Free flowing basketball at its finest and a team from a small market being a big draw. I don't think he was loving the Kings for the last half of that decade.

David Stern and the NBA have a vested interest in seeing small market teams be not just viable but competitive. And the Sacramento city and California state leadership involved have shown every willingness to work with the NBA to keep the Kings. Seattle fans that don't understand why Stern "loves" Sacramento are (to paraphrase Mickey Arison) not wanting to understand.

Relocation isn't about looking at which is the better market. It's about deciding that a city lacks the fan support or willingness to update or build an arena and moving on. You don't get to take a team just because you have a richer investor or a bigger market share. It's a RELOCATION vote. NOT a city 1 vs city 2 vote. The question was whether or not the existing market was viable. And everyone on our side fought to show the NBA just that.

And for all the talk about how "the NBA only cares about money and that's why Seattle will win" I have to wonder if anybody making that claim has actually looked at the big picture. Seattle being a bigger media market with more corporate support helps Seattle, but it doesn't change the national TV deal or help any other franchises. And luxury tax money (assuming Seattle would have a huge payroll due to Ballmer's deep pockets) only equates to a few million a year for most teams in the luxury tax range. Paul Allen has the same net worth as Ballmer and his team (7th highest payroll) paid less than $5 million this year.

That's not small change, but do you think the NBA would rather have $5 million or the ability to point to a completely revitalized Sacramento with a beautiful new arena and a rabid fanbase and be able to tell other franchises and owners, look what the NBA can help you do for your city?

Stern loves Sacramento because it can be a model franchise due to how it has cooperated with the league to do something incredibly special.
 
Cause he's an egotistical prick. Listen, Washington like California is a difficult state politically. There are a lot of lunatics up there, but also a lot of rational, business minded people. There is a reason Washington is corporate heaven, 0.2% business taxes, but its also extremely liberal....its an odd mixture of very business minded people, as well as people who are extreme leftist.

NBA wanted a new arena, which is fine, but they pushed a little too much in a short period of time. The city had remodeled the Key Arena in 1994, and 10 years later they were asking for more public funds (immediately after the city & state put up well over a billion in public funding for Safeco & Seahawks Stadium). If the NBA had been patient, like they were with Sacramento, they would have had their new arena by now. But because of the lefty extremists who have a voice in politics, they pissed off Stern at a meeting up here and he's been mad about it ever since. In a nutshell.
So you think it's cause of his ego, which got insulted at one meeting, rather than because he's trying to represent the interests of all the owners as a whole, and that the political climate was dire, and looked bleak, and they had passed I-91, and that because of all this no local buyers stepped up as well.

You say he's just trying to protect his ego, that he is personally hurt, or publicly disgraced, and therefore has a vengeful attitude towards Seattle.

Am I correct in my assessment of your assessment?
 
I really wish the Seattle fans would decide which of their competing/alternating memes is true. Before the recommendation all we heard was "All the NBA cares about is money, H/B have the most, Seattle is a bigger more lucrative market say good bye to your Kings!" Then after the vote the Meme became "Stern hates us! it's not fair, he MADE the bad men vote against us! The NBA is a rigged criminal organization and they hate us! File law suites! I don't care if we ever get a team burn it all down!" Now the yahoo's are back to cheering that money talks and the NBA will listen.... please decide and stick to your story guys.
 
So okay, its two battles, Sacramento vs. Maloofs & Seattle vs. Stern. Both our two battles should have never been mixed together. Its not Seattle vs. Sacramento, and thats what I've tried to do over here speaking with you guys. I've never thought or wanted it to be Seattle vs. Sacramento, I've made my intentions clear, that I want this situation to pressure the league into expansion. I put all the blame on Stern for orchestrating this mess a long, long time ago to prove a point.
So Stern orchestrated cutting off all public subsidy for an arena for the forseeable future at the time the Sonics left?
 
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Has everyone forgotten about the $70 million loan the Magoofs would need to repay to sacramento if the team moved?

wouldnt this increase bid by Hansen bring their deal even with sacramento group, since if the kings stay in sacrosanct, the Maloofs won't have to repay the loan.

Maybe the Maloofs were favoring sac over Seattle because of the sac loan and this increase is to make Hansen look good and even their bid with sacto's
 
You know what team I'm sure Stern absolutely loves? The Spurs. Small market team that had success with a clean, cut marketable and talented big man in David Robinson and then even more success with another clean cut, even more talented big man in Tim Duncan. No off the court issues, stability, championships and a real sense of team for the community to connect with. A model franchise for how small markets can compete with LA, NYC and Chicago teams.

And I guarantee that Stern loved the Kings of the early 2000s. Free flowing basketball at its finest and a team from a small market being a big draw. I don't think he was loving the Kings for the last half of that decade.

David Stern and the NBA have a vested interest in seeing small market teams be not just viable but competitive. And the Sacramento city and California state leadership involved have shown every willingness to work with the NBA to keep the Kings. Seattle fans that don't understand why Stern "loves" Sacramento are (to paraphrase Mickey Arison) not wanting to understand.

Relocation isn't about looking at which is the better market. It's about deciding that a city lacks the fan support or willingness to update or build an arena and moving on. You don't get to take a team just because you have a richer investor or a bigger market share. It's a RELOCATION vote. NOT a city 1 vs city 2 vote. The question was whether or not the existing market was viable. And everyone on our side fought to show the NBA just that.

And for all the talk about how "the NBA only cares about money and that's why Seattle will win" I have to wonder if anybody making that claim has actually looked at the big picture. Seattle being a bigger media market with more corporate support helps Seattle, but it doesn't change the national TV deal or help any other franchises. And luxury tax money (assuming Seattle would have a huge payroll due to Ballmer's deep pockets) only equates to a few million a year for most teams in the luxury tax range. Paul Allen has the same net worth as Ballmer and his team (7th highest payroll) paid less than $5 million this year.

That's not small change, but do you think the NBA would rather have $5 million or the ability to point to a completely revitalized Sacramento with a beautiful new arena and a rabid fanbase and be able to tell other franchises and owners, look what the NBA can help you do for your city?

Stern loves Sacramento because it can be a model franchise due to how it has cooperated with the league to do something incredibly special.
Great post.

When people talk about the league being all about the money, you have to shake your head. Had it been all about the money, Stern would've let Schultz sell the team to Ellison for the $425 million instead of the $350 he got from Bennett.

Speaking of Ellison, the league would've allowed him to buy the Warriors for more than Lacob did.

With the Hornets, the league could've waited for Hansen and got $525 million for them instead of the paltry $338 they got from Benson.

Regarding Sacramento, Stern clearly stated during the White Chocolate years that the Kings were the model franchise for the league despite the fact that they didn't really take it to the next level until Bibby got here.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
We need to do a "Spencer Hawes sucks" chant whenever he plays here kind of like what we did to OP but 10x worse.
Nope. He needs to be greeted with nothing but crickets. He thrives on stirring the pot. Refusing to even acknowledge him would be the much better course of action. Of course, we're assuming he'll even be in the league next year. :p
 
Hoopster, could you take a look at this timeline and incorporate it into your reply to my previous post please?

The timeline is correct, except left out of it was that there was a blatant motivation for Bennett to move to OKC in a short period of time.

First off, I think its wrong for the NBA to demand a new arena to be built 10 years after taxpayers footed the bill for the Key Arena renovations. 10 years, thats all it took for Shultz to start demanding a new arena be built. Trust me I think he's the worst villain in all of this. Seattle had JUST finished funding three years earlier new Seahawks AND new Mariners stadium. A lot of this whole situation is bad timing, no city, and I don't care if you're the craziest sports city in the country, no city is going to fund 3 taxpayer funded arenas/stadiums in a period of 7 years with no money coming from the ownership group. Even freaking LA can't build a stadium to bring the NFL there. The NBA should have been patient because eventually there would have been enough money to fund a new arena. The NBA has waited a long time in Sacramento, they basically gave Shultz a 2 year window, then Shultz gave up, then Bennett came in, gave Seattle a 2 year window (with his proposal of THE MOST expensive arena in NBA history to be built, which wasn't even located in Seattle). Four years is not a lot of time, they dealt with one politician who wasn't favorable to a new arena. Sacramento voted in KJ to keep the Kings in Sacramento because your arena issue has taken even longer. If the NBA had waited just one more political cycle, they'd have had their arena, they were not patient.

Second, Bennett always was motivated to get the Sonics to OKC, I don't buy for a single second he had any intention of trying to keep the team in Seattle. He proposed a $500 million arena. Those were his good intentions. Five years on, and Hansen's arena proposal, which is in DOWNTOWN Seattle mind you where land is SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive (Bennett's arena was in Renton, where land is very cheap, and is 12 miles from Downtown) is the same price as Bennett's and offers a much better economic deal to the city of Seattle. Bennett was going to collect all revenue from his arena, including concerts and other events, he'd have control over naming rights (including revenue), without paying a DIME. Basically his "good intentions" were politically and economically impossible. He wanted the Taj Mahal of arenas, and was going to collect all the money for himself. It was not realistic.

In addition to this, Bennett and his partners (after emails between them and Stern were revealed) let it be known to the world they never wanted the team in Seattle.

And by the way, Ballmer offered to renovate the Key Arena with his own money and buy the team, which the NBA said no to. The NBA never wanted a team in Seattle on Seattle's terms, it was on their terms. The fact that all these NBA teams get by on making tons of money when they don't put a dime into the arena, and then get to say where the team plays, that is wrong.

I don't know why all of you guys defend the NBA in its drive to bankrupt cities. I'm not sure how well Sacramento is doing economically, but maybe I can find one or two people here who think that if a municipality is going to front money, they should have some equity over the franchise. The Green Bay model is the only sustainable model for how sports franchises should be operated. Kevin Johnson should be demanding Sacramento have equity in the team, because in 20 years time when the league wants another arena built, they'll pull the same bull**** again. And if Ranadive ends up being a flukey owner, or sells to a fluky owner, the city will suffer once again without any power.
 
the nba doesnt like moving teams. when a team moves that shows the product is doing bad
The NBA loves bankrupting cities to build them new arenas without having to pay for them, and then dictating where the team will play. The NBA loves moving teams if they can continue this process, which in my opinion is the wrong way to handle yourself as a league, especially now when most cities in our country are broke. The NBA is making money on taxpayers dime, but the taxpayers don't have a say in the future of the team whatsoever.

Every city/sports team should operate the way Green Bay Packers do. Fully community based sports franchises, Green Bay is the smallest city of any professional sports franchise in any league, and yet they are one of the most successful in their sport, and they are a profitable business. If they can be successful & profitable, anyone else can. NBA makes more money through TV anyway, its not a necessity to have these extravagant palaces to showcase their product, particularly on any given night half of the arena for many teams will be empty.
 
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You know what team I'm sure Stern absolutely loves? The Spurs. Small market team that had success with a clean, cut marketable and talented big man in David Robinson and then even more success with another clean cut, even more talented big man in Tim Duncan. No off the court issues, stability, championships and a real sense of team for the community to connect with. A model franchise for how small markets can compete with LA, NYC and Chicago teams.

And I guarantee that Stern loved the Kings of the early 2000s. Free flowing basketball at its finest and a team from a small market being a big draw. I don't think he was loving the Kings for the last half of that decade.

David Stern and the NBA have a vested interest in seeing small market teams be not just viable but competitive. And the Sacramento city and California state leadership involved have shown every willingness to work with the NBA to keep the Kings. Seattle fans that don't understand why Stern "loves" Sacramento are (to paraphrase Mickey Arison) not wanting to understand.

Relocation isn't about looking at which is the better market. It's about deciding that a city lacks the fan support or willingness to update or build an arena and moving on. You don't get to take a team just because you have a richer investor or a bigger market share. It's a RELOCATION vote. NOT a city 1 vs city 2 vote. The question was whether or not the existing market was viable. And everyone on our side fought to show the NBA just that.

And for all the talk about how "the NBA only cares about money and that's why Seattle will win" I have to wonder if anybody making that claim has actually looked at the big picture. Seattle being a bigger media market with more corporate support helps Seattle, but it doesn't change the national TV deal or help any other franchises. And luxury tax money (assuming Seattle would have a huge payroll due to Ballmer's deep pockets) only equates to a few million a year for most teams in the luxury tax range. Paul Allen has the same net worth as Ballmer and his team (7th highest payroll) paid less than $5 million this year.

That's not small change, but do you think the NBA would rather have $5 million or the ability to point to a completely revitalized Sacramento with a beautiful new arena and a rabid fanbase and be able to tell other franchises and owners, look what the NBA can help you do for your city?

Stern loves Sacramento because it can be a model franchise due to how it has cooperated with the league to do something incredibly special.

You're absolutely correct here, I've never argued Sacramento wasn't viable. I loved the early 2000s Kings. I wished it had worked out for Adelman in Minnesota because that team was becoming very reminiscent of the early 2000s Kings.

I actually think Utah is a much more model franchise than even San Antonio. Remember, San Antonio has had Tim Duncan & Greg Popovich. Obviously they hired Pops, but Duncan is one of the 10 best players ever, its less difficult to build long term success when you have such a player to lean on. What makes a team successful is the recovery after legends end up leaving or retiring. Utah did tremendously to keep pushing for success even after Stockton & Malone retired, Utah has missed the playoffs 5 times in the last 30 years and have only had 2 losing seasons in that same period of time. They have two extremely good young players that could guide them to the next great Jazz core as well in Kanter & Favors.
 
It's that simple my brother. Remove the beam from your own eye, fix the problems in your own city, work with the league that will run whatever team comes there, and you shall get your hearts desire.
I'm not going to deny there are a lot of left wing people in Seattle who hate basketball. But there also are a lot of rational, pro business, pro sports, pro basketball people in the area too. Unfortunately there are a lot of left wing nuts in this area which makes it a politically difficult city to deal with. But, Nickels got VOTED OUT. Remember that, he got voted out because a lot of people hated how he caved to Stern/Bennett. The guy lost his job over his handling of it, it was a big political mess. Shultz/Stern only dealt with Nickels too, had they dealt with McGinn they would have had a much more positive experience as the guy has been a pro-Sonics mayor.
 
No the NBA loves bankrupting cities to build them new arenas without having to pay for them, and then dictating where the team will play.

Every city/sports team should operate the way Green Bay Packers do. Fully community based sports franchises, Green Bay is the smallest city of any professional sports franchise in any league, and yet they are one of the most successful in their sport, and they are a profitable business. If they can be successful & profitable, anyone else can. NBA makes more money through TV anyway, its not a necessity to have these extravagant palaces to showcase their product, particularly on any given night half of the arena for many teams will be empty.
How Post-Rational can you be? Seriously what would the NBA get out of bankrupting cities intentionally? As many long time posters on this site can attest I have always voiced caution and skepticism about city funded arena/stadium plans because there have several cases of cities essentially spending dollars to gain back cents and left screwed by the TEAMS. (for reference on this http://www.fieldofschemes.com/ ) But NONE of the leagues are to blame it is short sighted cities and ruthless owners that are to blame. So the blame the NBA as a substitute meme for blame Stern just does not work here

The two issues at had are (1) how do you get a long term commitment from a city and team to eachother so that what happend in 08 in Seattle does not happen again and (2) how do you prevent cities from cutting each-other's throats to get a team (think Browns, Colts or even Sonics) thereby saddling taxpayers with a unsupportable debt that acts as a bribe/gift to the owners. Privitely funded arenas are in alomst all cases BOTH impractical and dangerous. A truly privately funded arena owned by the team could mean the team can be sold and moved for a profit and the arena sold off as an after thought. (Anybody want to buy a slightly used Silver-dome?) Also there is little or no fiscal advantage for a city in a purely private facility they have no interest in but still have to support with infrastructure and external costs the owners do not pay (think police, traffic etc)

The BEST solution seems to be just what the NBA is leading the way in, cooperative ventures in which ownership groups and the city both have an interest and an investment. Teams are locked in place through long term commitments and the burden on local government is off set. In the Sac deal the cost is paid for by parking and backed up by a hotel room tax, which ironically means that IF the parking concessions can not provide 100% of the money then out of town lobbyists from LA, China and Seattle etc. will pay for the arena for us (Thank you masked man!) Not every city can follow that exact same formula but when you are the capital of the worlds 7th largest economy you get to do this. No one is going to stop coming to Sacramento because of the room tax.

Green bay is a oddity that can and never will be repeated. The NFL has made sure there will be no publicly owned teams again and no other sport allows for them. So the alternative is a privately financed arena and not even Hansen and Ballmer are offering that. Their deal requires a 200 mill loan from the city who then holds title (avoiding a bunch of taxes) and gets paid back with wait for it... wait for it.... facility taxes the city would be entitled to anyway! Sweet deal!!! to bad it probably violates your I 90 law. This is NOT a privately funded arena other wise Hansen would be going ahead with it and not waiting until he had both a basketball team and a NHL team as tenets.

At any rate I digress it is NOT in the NBA's interest to bankrupt cites and shuffle teams around like so little city killers on a RISK board. The NBA is not out to get Seattle, Stern does not care one way or the other about Seattle. And no I don't think the NBA looked around and said THAT'S a good city to destroy we will stay in Sacramento... them boys up in Seattle are too slick for us."
 
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if it was all about money why wont c.h. just buy the team for 800 million then? he knows we dont have it.
He might yet. Poor guy is playing "Storage Wars" and KJ and company are playing "Survivor." Let's just hope the BOG is playing "Survivor" as well and snuff his torch.

It does cross my mind that the opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference. Since the vote the ONLY things the NBA has siad have been about Sacramento and what was done to keep the team (as if it were a done deal) and what final steps would need to be taken (money in escrow, tour of facilities etc.) So I guess it is understandable that the Sea fans WANT to be hated, it is better than being ignored, and poor Hansen is like Joe Joe Who down in Who-ville using cash to scream "We are Here! We are Here! hoping someone that matters notices.
 
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He might yet. Poor guy is playing "Storage Wars" and KJ and company are playing "Survivor." Let's just hope the BOG is playing "Survivor" as well and snuff his torch.
Honestly, when I heard that Hansen increased his offer again it gave me an "Indecent Proposal" feeling. It is a "hey look, I can get whatever I want with my gigantic wallet." It is unbecoming. It probably gives the league a few question marks about this guy. He would do better if he acted like a gentleman IMHO.
 
Honestly, when I heard that Hansen increased his offer again it gave me an "Indecent Proposal" feeling. It is a "hey look, I can get whatever I want with my gigantic wallet." It is unbecoming. It probably gives the league a few question marks about this guy. He would do better if he acted like a gentleman IMHO.
Dude my wife said the EXACT same thing!
 
In addition to this, Bennett and his partners (after emails between them and Stern were revealed) let it be known to the world they never wanted the team in Seattle.

And by the way, Ballmer offered to renovate the Key Arena with his own money and buy the team, which the NBA said no to. The NBA never wanted a team in Seattle on Seattle's terms, it was on their terms. The fact that all these NBA teams get by on making tons of money when they don't put a dime into the arena, and then get to say where the team plays, that is wrong.

I don't know why all of you guys defend the NBA in its drive to bankrupt cities. I'm not sure how well Sacramento is doing economically, but maybe I can find one or two people here who think that if a municipality is going to front money, they should have some equity over the franchise.
First off, it's ridiculous how you feel about Bennet never wanting the team in Sea, then failing to realize that's exactly how the Maloofs feel about keeping the team in Sac, to the point they go behind Sac's back to negotiate a deal with Hansen. You act like it's borderline evil that Bennet didn't want to keep the team in Sea and Sea didn't get a fair shot at keeping the team, then turn around and ignore that is what is happening to us, with the Maloofs, yet you want the NBA to honor the deal Hansen/Maloofs made behind our backs while having zero intention of keeping the team. Difference is Sac still stepped up and did what is needed to keep the team, yet you're more than ready to take the team anyway based on a shady behind-our-backs deal.

Second, the Sac economy would be worse off without the Kings and without a new arena. Want to bankrupt Sac? Move the team.
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
The NBA should have been patient because eventually there would have been enough money to fund a new arena. The NBA has waited a long time in Sacramento, they basically gave Shultz a 2 year window, then Shultz gave up, then Bennett came in, gave Seattle a 2 year window (with his proposal of THE MOST expensive arena in NBA history to be built, which wasn't even located in Seattle). Four years is not a lot of time, they dealt with one politician who wasn't favorable to a new arena. Sacramento voted in KJ to keep the Kings in Sacramento because your arena issue has taken even longer. If the NBA had waited just one more political cycle, they'd have had their arena, they were not patient.

Second, Bennett always was motivated to get the Sonics to OKC, I don't buy for a single second he had any intention of trying to keep the team in Seattle.
First of all, Sacramento has been trying to get the Maloofs to negotiate an arena deal for about a decade. They keep backing out of every single one. Sacramento has been proactive. It wasn't us saying "we need more time" - it was the Maloofs telling Sacramento and the NBA to "**** off." Seattle just told the NBA to fly a kite and didn't even try to get an arena financed.

As has been stated by others, the Maloofs have been trying to move the team since they bought it. Hence the shooting down of every arena deal we put forward (including those negotiated and approved by the NBA). You aren't alone in having a carpetbagger as an owner, you just didn't do enough to keep the team.

Others have addressed some of your other comments, so I won't bother repeating rebuttals.
 
I personally want to thank all of the guys at Stomachs-Rising for the weird and uncalled for celebration. Some how it is as if the news that a new deal between the BM and the currently failing Hedge Fund Pirate changed anything. On Wed I will actually be able to go over to their website (if it is still up) and read with great schadenfreude about how unfair it all is, how Stern hates you and how the Maloofs should have moved team before they forced them to give it up.... blah, blah, blah. Months ago I was sympathetic to the poor fans in Seattle who lost their team, but thanks to Chris Hansen, Softy Mahler, Chris Daniels, Brian and the other trolls at Stomachs-rising day by day, antic by antic, sniveling post by sniveling post all my compassion for you folks has gone. My heart still goes out to Sherman Alexi and basketball fans like him in Seattle who miss the sport, and now may NEVER get a team now thanks to the above mentioned buffoons, but for you folks, there is none.
 
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