Draft Thread

[Warhawk]

Sigh...

I guess I have no choice but to allow people to continue spewing that IT only started for a ROY campaign because no matter that it makes no sense, I see people saying it time and time again. It's just as ridiculous as people who say the lottery is fixed or if someone were to say that the reason Tyreke got the ball his rookie year was only to get 20/5/5. Nevermind the fact that IT was easily our most efficient player offensively, our best passer, and our best defender at the PG position. Nevermind the fact that the offense improved greatly after he became the starter and the point differential increased dramatically from close to -10 to around -3. Instead, it HAS to be that the Maloofs were trying to create some WWE storyline where IT would be a ROY contender.

Maybe you should think about complaining that Tyreke should have stayed at SG next to IT and Thornton moved to the bench, but there is no way IT did not earn that starting position. Please cut the conspiracy theories.

Sigh, yourself. There is no conspiracy theory from me. Look at every year - we have a "story" that MSE pushes. Tyreke ROY and 20-5-5. Cousins face plastered on the side of buildings before he played a game. Jimmer's marketing push. And when Jimmer didn't play as well as hoped, here comes the IT ROY campaign. It's a pattern, not a conspiracy. We have a lousy team (recoed-wise), high ticket prices, no more sellout streaks, and broke owners. They are trying to generate interest and get people to show up. It's a shallow, stupid way to approach the fans to pay for tickets. Works for a few, but fielding a competitive team is a much smarter route to go.

I would have been fine with Tyreke at the 2 and Thornton on the bench. But that never really materialzed much and we don't know how that would result on the floor. It is a strawman argument at this point. AndI'm not arguing the IT vs. Evans discussion. Even if all you say about IT is true, that still doesn't make him ROY material.

IT is a talented player, and I like him on the team. I'm not bashing him. But there was NO way he was ROY material last year and the push for that was just sad to watch on behalf of a professional basketball team. And that is on the Maloofs.

 

[gatoradeSD]

Sigh...

Nevermind the fact that IT was easily our most efficient player offensively, our best passer, and our best defender at the PG position.

Disagree, Agree, and agree but best defender next to Jimmer isnt saying much

 

[ParniValjak]

Sigh, yourself. There is no conspiracy theory from me. Look at every year - we have a "story" that MSE pushes. Tyreke ROY and 20-5-5. Cousins face plastered on the side of buildings before he played a game. Jimmer's marketing push. And when Jimmer didn't play as well as hoped, here comes the IT ROY campaign. It's a pattern, not a conspiracy. We have a lousy team (recoed-wise), high ticket prices, no more sellout streaks, and broke owners. They are trying to generate interest and get people to show up. It's a shallow, stupid way to approach the fans to pay for tickets. Works for a few, but fielding a competitive team is a much smarter route to go.

I would have been fine with Tyreke at the 2 and Thornton on the bench. But that never really materialzed much and we don't know how that would result on the floor. It is a strawman argument at this point. AndI'm not arguing the IT vs. Evans discussion. Even if all you say about IT is true, that still doesn't make him ROY material.

IT is a talented player, and I like him on the team. I'm not bashing him. But there was NO way he was ROY material last year and the push for that was just sad to watch on behalf of a professional basketball team. And that is on the Maloofs.

This!

And be prepared for aggressive Thomas Robinson for ROY campaign to be at full speed next season. He will be forced down our throats at every opportunity. Now he could well end up being ROY as he is arguably the most NBA ready player from the draft BUT, the intent behind it all is clear. Its a cheap marketing scam to get more money into the Maloof coffers. At a stage of the rebuild where winning should be without a doubt the number 1 priority, we are too concerned with running some cheap marketing scam to get a few more bucks out of the fans.

 

[vikinginferno]

Sigh, yourself. There is no conspiracy theory from me. Look at every year - we have a "story" that MSE pushes. Tyreke ROY and 20-5-5. Cousins face plastered on the side of buildings before he played a game. Jimmer's marketing push. And when Jimmer didn't play as well as hoped, here comes the IT ROY campaign. It's a pattern, not a conspiracy. We have a lousy team (recoed-wise), high ticket prices, no more sellout streaks, and broke owners. They are trying to generate interest and get people to show up. It's a shallow, stupid way to approach the fans to pay for tickets. Works for a few, but fielding a competitive team is a much smarter route to go.

I would have been fine with Tyreke at the 2 and Thornton on the bench. But that never really materialzed much and we don't know how that would result on the floor. It is a strawman argument at this point. AndI'm not arguing the IT vs. Evans discussion. Even if all you say about IT is true, that still doesn't make him ROY material.

IT is a talented player, and I like him on the team. I'm not bashing him. But there was NO way he was ROY material last year and the push for that was just sad to watch on behalf of a professional basketball team. And that is on the Maloofs.

In this post you are arguing a much different point than you made in the original post. You made the point that the only reason IT was starting at PG was because of the ROY campaign. Now you are changing your argument to that he didn't deserve to be ROY and that they were trying to create interest with IT as a ROY contender. I agree with those last two things. I definitely don't agree with the first.

Here's what happened. IT had been providing a spark off the bench and had demonstrated that he was clearly better than Jimmer. After a 3 game losing streak, Smart decided to put Isaiah into the starting lineup and take Salmons out. He went on a tear immediately, putting up 13, 4, and 4 in 23 minutes against Detroit. His next game against the Cavs, he put up a monster 23 points, 11 assists, and 8 rebounds, outplaying Irving. Next game: 24, 5 and 3 against the Heat. Next game? 18 and 6 (pretty much all in the 2nd half when it was needed) against John Wall. Next game? 18 and 8 against Utah. Would you like to tell me how the Maloofs are able to make IT put up these numbers in his first 5 starts? IT then went on to win Rookie of the Month for 2 months in a row. Not even until quite a while after he earned the starting job did the IT ROY campaign even begin. You can say he didn't deserve to win ROY, but it clearly was not absolutely absurd to have a ROY marketing campaign for a player who won Rookie of the Month twice and only got starting minutes for half of the season. Even more clear is the fact that IT was starting because he simply earned the starting spot, not because of some marketing sham. To say that he only started for the ROY campaign is a major slight against him and it is completely unwarranted.

 

[vikinginferno]

Disagree, Agree, and agree but best defender next to Jimmer isnt saying much

He wasn't our most efficient player offensively? By the latter part of the season, he was putting up an amazing assist to turnover ratio. As a starter, he shot 48% (elite for a guard), 41% from 3 (also elite), and in the mid 80s for FT% (quite good). The only other player you could even make the argument for is JT in terms of offensive efficiency.

The "best defender at PG" includes Tyreke. IT guarded PGs better than Tyreke. For the most part, IT was a good defender at PG and especially in ISO, pick-and-roll, and post-up situations. For some people to say that IT hurts our defense at PG is just completely wrong considering he has been one of the brighter spots on defense.

 

[Warhawk]

In this post you are arguing a much different point than you made in the original post. You made the point that the only reason IT was starting at PG was because of the ROY campaign. Now you are changing your argument to that he didn't deserve to be ROY and that they were trying to create interest with IT as a ROY contender. I agree with those last two things. I definitely don't agree with the first.

Here's what happened. IT had been providing a spark off the bench and had demonstrated that he was clearly better than Jimmer. After a 3 game losing streak, Smart decided to put Isaiah into the starting lineup and take Salmons out. He went on a tear immediately, putting up 13, 4, and 4 in 23 minutes against Detroit. His next game against the Cavs, he put up a monster 23 points, 11 assists, and 8 rebounds, outplaying Irving. Next game: 24, 5 and 3 against the Heat. Next game? 18 and 6 (pretty much all in the 2nd half when it was needed) against John Wall. Next game? 18 and 8 against Utah. Would you like to tell me how the Maloofs are able to make IT put up these numbers in his first 5 starts? IT then went on to win Rookie of the Month for 2 months in a row. Not even until quite a while after he earned the starting job did the IT ROY campaign even begin. You can say he didn't deserve to win ROY, but it clearly was not absolutely absurd to have a ROY marketing campaign for a player who won Rookie of the Month twice and only got starting minutes for half of the season. Even more clear is the fact that IT was starting because he simply earned the starting spot, not because of some marketing sham. To say that he only started for the ROY campaign is a major slight against him and it is completely unwarranted.

Did he go on a tear? Yes. Is he a good player? YES! Should he be the starting PG on our team? Not if we want to win. Look at the W-L records with him as starting point (Detroit game onwards) last year, despite an easier schedule (weaker opponents, one more game at home, more days off, players that had played together for a while instead of the VERY short training camp and all the injuries early). Before IT started the Detroit game? 11 and 20. After? 10 and 22. Assuming my counting was correct.

Now this isn't a very detailed look at it, but the W-L records show no improvement. That is the big one in my book.

 

[Section 101]

Did he go on a tear? Yes. Is he a good player? YES! Should he be the starting PG on our team? Not if we want to win. Look at the W-L records with him as starting point (Detroit game onwards) last year, despite an easier schedule (weaker opponents, one more game at home, more days off, players that had played together for a while instead of the VERY short training camp and all the injuries early). Before IT started the Detroit game? 11 and 20. After? 10 and 22. Assuming my counting was correct.

Now this isn't a very detailed look at it, but the W-L records show no improvement. That is the big one in my book.

But the points differential did !

 

[Tetsujin]

But the points differential did !

Blowing out teams like the Charlotte Bobcats may have had something to do with that

 

[Section 101]

Blowing out teams like the Charlotte Bobcats may have had something to do with that

It was getting better well before then.

 

[Bricklayer]

But the points differential did !

So did the Home/Away ratio!

Hint: the two were related.

 

[The_Jamal]

Did he go on a tear? Yes. Is he a good player? YES! Should he be the starting PG on our team? Not if we want to win. Look at the W-L records with him as starting point (Detroit game onwards) last year, despite an easier schedule (weaker opponents, one more game at home, more days off, players that had played together for a while instead of the VERY short training camp and all the injuries early). Before IT started the Detroit game? 11 and 20. After? 10 and 22. Assuming my counting was correct.

Now this isn't a very detailed look at it, but the W-L records show no improvement. That is the big one in my book.

Isaiah Thomas offensively:

B-ball reference-
116- ORTG
.574 TS%
17.6 PER
.524 eFG%
4.2 OWS
.124 WS/48

Synergy sports:
Overall- 0.98 PPP (65th)
Isolation-0.92 PPP (24th)
PnR Ball Handler- 1.03 PPP (5th!!)
Spot-up- 0.99 PPP (124)
Transition- 1.24 PPP (88)

Isaiah Thomas defensively:

I won't use B-ball reference since their defensive statistics are highly flawed for perimeter players

Synergy Sports-
Overall-0.83 PPP (167)
Isolation- 0.68 PPP (68)
PnR Ball Handler- 0.76 PPP (80)
Post-up- 0.6 PPP (11)----- And his size hurts him eh?
Spot-up- 1.02 PPP (268)

You're saying this guy can't start for us? If you had no idea who these stats belonged too, you'd have no problem with this guy coming to play for us. I find it quite amusing with some of the things people come up with to try and say IT isn't a starter in this league. " The dude can flat out ball, and I for one am looking forward to watching what he can do next season. Our problems last year came from Tyreke being out of position and having 3 chuckers in the lineup at the same time. Once we went IT-Reke/Thornton-SF-JT-Cousins at any point in the season, we all of a sudden became a competitive basketball team

 

[Tetsujin]

So did the Home/Away ratio!

Hint: the two were related.

Our schedule over the first half of the season was far more brutal than the second half of the season as well.

 

[rainmaker]

None of IT's defensive stats take into account how often he was hidden on the lesser of the two opposing teams backcourt players. It was Reke often guarding the opposing teams best offensive player out of the PG, SG and SF. Sometimes it was the SF Reke was guarding, other times it was the top guard.

Those stats mean a little less when you consider for example against OKC the last two meetings Reke was guarding Wesbrook and IT was hidden on Sefalosha. Or when against Pho he was hidden on Shannon Brown instead of guarding Nash.

 

[The_Jamal]

None of IT's defensive stats take into account how often he was hidden on the lesser of the two opposing teams backcourt players. It was Reke often guarding the opposing teams best offensive player out of the PG, SG and SF. Sometimes it was the SF Reke was guarding, other times it was the top guard.

Those stats mean a little less when you consider for example against OKC the last two meetings Reke was guarding Wesbrook and IT was hidden on Sefalosha. Or when against Pho he was hidden on Shannon Brown instead of guarding Nash.

Ok? So? Reke is supposed to be our best defender. So why wouldn't you put him on the best perimeter guard of the other team?

The point is that IT is quite frankly, an incredible offensive talent. All he has to do is hold his own on the defensive end and he exceeded that expectation last season. Reke is supposed to take on that challenge of guarding the other team's best perimeter player as one our of supposed franchise cornerstones.

 

[rainmaker]

Ok? So? Reke is supposed to be our best defender. So why wouldn't you put him on the best perimeter guard of the other team?

The point is that IT is quite frankly, an incredible offensive talent. All he has to do is hold his own on the defensive end and he exceeded that expectation last season. Reke is supposed to take on that challenge of guarding the other team's best perimeter player as one our of supposed franchise cornerstones.

None of your response has anything to do with IT's defensive stats being somewhat misleading, when he was hidden a number of times.

 

[Section 101]

None of your response has anything to do with IT's defensive stats being somewhat misleading, when he was hidden a number of times.

How about on CP3?

 

[The_Jamal]

None of your response has anything to do with IT's defensive stats being somewhat misleading, when he was hidden a number of times.

And you have a sample size of data to prove IT being "hidden a number of times" as the reason he had good defensive stats this season? I can say the exact same thing about Evans too; when IT was guarding the likes of CP3 and Tony Parker (and played them damn well) and Reke was guarding Danny Green,Kawhi Leonard, and Randy Foye the whole game. See how baseless your silly argument is?

 

[Tetsujin]

How about on CP3?

March 1st 22 pts, 9 assists, 2 tos.

April 5 at home, CP3 did not do great. 13pts, 8asts, 5 steals, 5tos, 4-16 shooting

April 7th, however, on their homecourt, CP3 had a paltry 19 points, 15 asts, 7 stls (?!), 3 tos, 6-14 shooting.

Whatever effect IT had on CP3, it was minimal at best.

 

[Tetsujin]

And you have a sample size of data to prove IT being "hidden a number of times" as the reason he had good defensive stats this season? I can say the exact same thing about Evans too; when IT was guarding the likes of CP3 and Tony Parker (and played them damn well) and Reke was guarding Danny Green,Kawhi Leonard, and Randy Foye the whole game. See how baseless your silly argument is?

Look, IT isn't as bad at defense as some of the posters here would like you to think, but he certainly did not play them "damn well".

 

[rainmaker]

And you have a sample size of data to prove IT being "hidden a number of times" as the reason he had good defensive stats this season? I can say the exact same thing about Evans too; when IT was guarding the likes of CP3 and Tony Parker (and played them damn well) and Reke was guarding Danny Green,Kawhi Leonard, and Randy Foye the whole game. See how baseless your silly argument is?

We don't try to hide Reke. We do however hide IT when he can't handle the opposing PG's. BTW, that last game against SA was quite a struggle for IT as every PG on SA had their way with him, from Parker to Mills. Reke guarded Manu a fair amount as well, so the "whole game" on Green/Leonard crap, is well, crap.

 

[The_Jamal]

Look, IT isn't as bad at defense as some of the posters here would like you to think, but he certainly did not play them "damn well".

Parker in the 2 IT starts-
12.5 points, 9 assists, 1.5 TO's, on 8-22 shooting

Against CP3 in 3 starts-

18 points, 10 assists, 3.3 TO's, on 39% shooting with IT absolutely outplaying Paul in one of those starts.

I don't know about you, but I'd consider " damn well" to be outplaying Paker twice and outplaying CP3 once. Both guys were top 5 players last season

 

[The_Jamal]

We don't try to hide Reke. We do however hide IT when he can't handle the opposing PG's. BTW, that last game against SA was quite a struggle for IT as every PG on SA had their way with him, from Parker to Mills. Reke guarded Manu a fair amount as well, so the "whole game" on Green/Leonard crap, is well, crap.

whatever lol. You can continue to believe your own biased opinions and continuously ignore statistical evidence.

 

[Tetsujin]

Parker in the 2 IT starts-
12.5 points, 9 assists, 1.5 TO's, on 8-22 shooting

Against CP3 in 3 starts-

18 points, 10 assists, 3.3 TO's, on 39% shooting with IT absolutely outplaying Paul in one of those starts.

I don't know about you, but I'd consider " damn well" to be outplaying Paker twice and outplaying CP3 once. Both guys were top 5 players last season

Look at Parker's minutes in those games though. Sure he only put up those numbers but only in something like 28 minutes per game.

I wouldn't consider "holding" a guy to 18/10 as great defense either.

 

[Tetsujin]

whatever lol. You can continue to believe your own biased opinions and continuously ignore statistical evidence.

Statistics are like modern art, everyone gets out of them what they want to see.

 

[The_Jamal]

Statistics are like modern art, everyone gets out of them what they want to see.

Sure, if you use them incorrectly or only use 1 stat to judge a player. I don't. I use a whole wave of different stats from different sites, along with my own eyes, to form an opinion of a player.

*Speaking of which, I would love to get my hands on a full-access Synergy subscription to go back and watch every game. We can say " Oh, IT defended him, and Reke defended him" all we want, but in reality, none of us can remember exactly who was guarding who on every possesion of every game. It would be really interesting to see the exact number of times IT was switched off a Westbrook or Nash, or how the exact number of times Reke had to D up LeBron or Durant

 

[rainmaker]

whatever lol. You can continue to believe your own biased opinions and continuously ignore statistical evidence.

Sure....

You want me to take synergy stats out of context and build an argument?

Synergy Sports-

Overall-0.73PPP (34)
Isolation-0.86PPP (215)
PnR BallHandler-0.71PPP (53)
Post-Up-0.82PPP (n/a)
Spot-Up-0.65PPP (11)

So who is this defensive stalwart ranked 133 spots ahead of IT?

 

[The_Jamal]

Sure....

You want me to take synergy stats out of context and build an argument?

Synergy Sports-

Overall-0.73PPP (34)
Isolation-0.86PPP (215)
PnR BallHandler-0.71PPP (53)
Post-Up-0.82PPP (n/a)
Spot-Up-0.65PPP (11)

So who is this defensive stalwart ranked 133 spots ahead of IT?

Congratulations. You found the 1 fatal flaw of Synergy statistics. They don't put enough importance (or any for that matter) on sample size with regards to their ranking system. I would much prefer to see something like a 250 possession minimum to qualify for a ranking

In this case though, Beno was indeed, fantastic defensively last season. He had a solid enough sample size to justify that claim

Opponents shot 35% against him overall. Only 23% from the 3pt line. He killed spot-up shooters last season only allowing them 27% overall shooting and 23% from behind the 3pt line.

Again, you really should learn how to analyze stats before blindly bashing them. I'd be happy to help should you want it

 

[VF21]

Well, this "Draft Thread" sure went to hell in a handcart...

 

[rainmaker]

Congratulations. You found the 1 fatal flaw of Synergy statistics. They don't put enough importance (or any for that matter) on sample size with regards to their ranking system. I would much prefer to see something like a 250 possession minimum to qualify for a ranking

In this case though, Beno was indeed, fantastic defensively last season. He had a solid enough sample size to justify that claim

Opponents shot 35% against him overall. Only 23% from the 3pt line. He killed spot-up shooters last season only allowing them 27% overall shooting and 23% from behind the 3pt line.

Again, you really should learn how to analyze stats before blindly bashing them. I'd be happy to help should you want it

You know, you going around and constantly accusing people of not knowing how to evaluate players and not knowing how to analyze stats is getting to be pretty ridiculous, let alone juvenile. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you have to accuse people of not knowing how to analyze stats or evaluate players. I know damn well how to analyze stats, and no matter how many times you try to add that little shot in or something similar at the end of your posts, it doesn't effect it.

So much attitude from you, and then when I play your game it becomes I don't know how to analyze stats.

 

[The_Jamal]

You know, you going around and constantly accusing people of not knowing how to evaluate players and not knowing how to analyze stats it's getting to be pretty ridiculous, let alone juvenile. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you have to accuse people of not knowing how to analyze stats or evaluate players. I know damn well how to analyze stats, and no matter how many times you try to add that little shot in or something similar at the end of your posts, it's doesn't effect it.

So much attitude from you, and then when I play your game it becomes I don't know how to analyze stats.

I don't understand why you chose to use Beno to further your argument that Synergy takes stats out of context if you know how to properly use stats? He had a great defensive year last season. His sample size is sufficient enough to make that claim. Again, I would love to get my hands on Synergy to go back 3 years to find how Beno was defensively with us. But still, it doesn't change the fact that Beno had a great defensive year last season.