Lowry talk heating up .. Kings in the mix (ESPN)

S

sactownfan

Guest
#31
what is the deal with sacramento and Houston? we love trading players back and forth... this trade talk sounds like a nightmare.

Kyle Lowry sounds like a headache, especially if pared with Cousins, plus Dalembert's didn't seem to leave here happy.

it also means that Evans at SF is official from here on out.

it also means that we miss out on 2 pretty safe moldable picks at seemed to fit a need in michael kidd or Barnes.
 
#32
If we get Houston's 14th and take Terrence Jones (who is very undervalued in this draft) it might not be that bad. Any other player? I don't know, but Jones, I think will be a steal in that range.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#33
And with those mid picks we take Melo and Marshall. Or Melo and Ross.

So we get Lowry, Melo and Marshall/Ross for our #5 and perhaps Hayes.
Id take Taylor and Moultrie, or Harkless and Moultrie. I'm not a big fan of Melo. Maybe the most one demensional big man in the draft. If we get Lowery, why the heck would we need Marshall? And I happen to love Marshall.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#35
Lowry is a very good shooter from 3 which is what we need to space the floor and he is one of the best defensive PG in the league and despite his height, he can match up on a lot of SGs. I think we gain a great deal defensively with Lowry at PG.

Not to mention he can get to the hoop as well.
I wouldn't get too carried away with this Lowery is a very good shooter stuff. While he's certainly respectable from the 3 pt line at 37%, he only shot 40% overall, which is not very good. Don't get me wrong, I like Lowery because of his defense and his ability to run a team, but his shooting is nothing to write home about.
 
#36
MassachusettsKingsFan poster some excerpts from clutchfans.com earlier, and I like to post another about pretty probable scenario since I feel MKG won't be there at #5 and I don't like Barnes that much:
It's interesting how both Sacramento and Toronto--the two teams currently sitting on the most 2011-12 cap room--are listed as teams with which the Rockets are negotiating to (reportedly) move up to take Andre Drummond. Well, it's unlikely that Drummond is still on the board at #8. So, why is Toronto being mentioned?

My hypothesis: BOTH teams could be involved in a 3-way deal with the Rockets.

Here's a possible scenario for the "Drummond-for-Dwight" crowd:

Houston receives: #5 pick
Sacramento receives: #8 pick, #14 pick and Samuel Dalembert
Toronto receives: Kyle Lowry

By trading Lowry ($5.75M) and Dalembert ($7M) to two teams that can absorb their salaries without sending any salary back--remember, draft picks count as $0 in trades and against the cap prior to July 1--the Rockets could find themselves ~$10.8M below the 2011-12 salary cap.

This would mean that the Rockets could absorb (most of) Howard's $18.1M salary ON DRAFT NIGHT without sending back equal salary. Something like Martin, #5 (Drummond) and #16 for Howard would work.

I'm not saying all of this because I am a proponent of getting Dwight Howard. I'm just illustrating how it would be possible to both trade up for Drummond AND trade for Dwight Howard ON DRAFT NIGHT, thereby eliminating Clutch's concerns over there being any sort of "gap" between the draft and a Howard trade.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#37
what is the deal with sacramento and Houston? we love trading players back and forth... this trade talk sounds like a nightmare.

Kyle Lowry sounds like a headache, especially if pared with Cousins, plus Dalembert's didn't seem to leave here happy.

it also means that Evans at SF is official from here on out.

it also means that we miss out on 2 pretty safe moldable picks at seemed to fit a need in michael kidd or Barnes.
Your one of the few people I know that adds up one and one and gets three. First off, no deal has been done, and secondly, we don't even know for sure what the deal would be. What I don't get is how any of this means that Evans is our starting SF. What rational process did you use to come to that conclusion? Were sitting here approximately 3 months from training camp with no idea what the roster will look like. I also don't know how you came to the conclusion that Lowery and Cousins couldn't/wouldn't work together. Based on what? Taro cards? A crystal ball?
 
#38
MassachusettsKingsFan poster some excerpts from clutchfans.com earlier, and I like to post another about pretty probable scenario since I feel MKG won't be there at #5 and I don't like Barnes that much:
I don't know if it's a realistic scenario. Form what I've read, Houston would like to get both #5 and #8, in order to trade them to Orlando to get Howard. ANyways, if this is the offer, I'd really consider it, even if maybe I'd take Lowry instead of #8. We need to start winning now, so I prefer a player who can contribute right now, and then fix the roster with some other trades.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#39
MassachusettsKingsFan poster some excerpts from clutchfans.com earlier, and I like to post another about pretty probable scenario since I feel MKG won't be there at #5 and I don't like Barnes that much:
Very interesting. I actually like this deal much better. No Lowery, but we really don't have a need there. We get Dalembert back, move down 3 spots, where we'll still get a good player, and pick up another mid-first round pick.
 
#41
Very interesting. I actually like this deal much better. No Lowery, but we really don't have a need there. We get Dalembert back, move down 3 spots, where we'll still get a good player, and pick up another mid-first round pick.
I don't mind that trade because it gives us a fair bit more flexibility with picks. However, I am not a fan of taking on another player (even though I love Dalembert) without moving some of our own. Even as we are now, we need to make the 2 for 1 type deal to get rid off some players that we already have in order to create some room to make the picks.

Lets assume we stand pat which means there are 2 draft picks to add to the current roster. The only way it can be done is not re-signing Greene and Williams. Both likely but I would like to see us bring Williams back.

I think we have a lot of roster spots to clear up which will be difficult for us to do because some of those deals will be difficult to move (Salmons, Hayes and even Outlaw at current production level). Garcia might actually be useful as an expiring contract.

If we could send Salmons and/or Hayes their way, I would be all over that deal like a rash!
 
#42
Lowry and Toronto would a hard rumor to bite especially at times when Nash and Toronto rumors are more louder than this thing.

I'll ride the Lowry and Sacramento deal if Chandler Parson is in it. That kid could fill our SF spot nicely.
 
#43
Why would the Kings take Daly back? It's a waste of cap space. If they want him (which I doubt) they can just wait for him to become a free agent and sign him for cheaper considering his value last summer was pretty much bottom of the list.

Don't like the idea of trading Drummond for Lowry, just don't like it at all.
 
#44
If other GMs are willing to pick Drummond at #5 or at least see him attractive at #5, why can't the Kings?

We want the more expensive and aging Dalembert back when we can have the cheaper, bigger, and younger shot-blocker and who has more upside in Drummond. I say just draft Drummond, make him the 3rd or 4th big for now behind Cousins, JT, and Whitehouse and get rid of Hayes.

Also, we want to add another very good point guard in Lowry, when our coach wanted to play IT, MT, and Evans at the same time last season. That is just too many guards in the rotation who wants to start and not to mention all of them wants to dominate the ball. Adding Lowry will almost guarantee that we'll never get away from playing small-ball. It is also almost guaranteed that Evans will stay as our SF just like Sactownman thinks would happen.

Actually, what Petire should just do is get rid of one of IT or MT to take away one ball-dominant guard in the rotation. Without one of IT or MT around, Smart wouldn't be as tempted to play small-ball.

Also, Petrie should just get rid of Garcia and Salmons (amnesty) to open more playing time for Greene, Outlaw, and Honeycut so they may farther develop and/or acquire Wallace or AK47. Or is it possible to nab Battier from Miami (since he already had his coveted ring)?

In summary, let us just draft Drummond at #5, amnesty Salmons, and replace one of IT or MT and with one good veteran sweet-shooting SF.
 
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#46
And what IF MKG was available at #5. I hope this deal does not happen until we are 100% sure that he is not...
I like MKG but the thing is the kid will never be a star and never a good enough shooter. He can be an outstanding defender, a super glue guy but really is that all you want from your 5th pick? How does he fit with Evans?

Evans' speciality is penetration and getting to the hoop. What he needs from SF is someone who can defended and shoot the 3 ball and IMHO MKG will never shoot well. If you think Tyreke's shot is bad, this kid has so many things wrong with his jumper that it will never be corrected.

Now if we draft MKG, I walk away happy but I also don't have high expectations in terms of his overall potential. I am more intrigued by Moe Harkless and his potential. He has length, athleticism, better handles and a better shot. Long term he could be a better player than MKG.
 
#47
Lowry is a very good shooter from 3 which is what we need to space the floor and he is one of the best defensive PG in the league and despite his height, he can match up on a lot of SGs. I think we gain a great deal defensively with Lowry at PG.

Not to mention he can get to the hoop as well.
I wouldn't call him very good.

He's a career 33% 3point shooter, and career 42 FG%.

Last 2 years he was an ok shooter at 37% - but calling him a very good shooter from 3 is a major stretch. that's been his weakness throughout his career, and he's been up and down with it - with his up not being that great anyways.

Defensively though, he's amazing.

I think he's overrated, and I don't think personally that he's worth him + 14 for the #5. that's overrating him and undervaluing the #5 pick.
 
#48
I like MKG but the thing is the kid will never be a star and never a good enough shooter. He can be an outstanding defender, a super glue guy but really is that all you want from your 5th pick? How does he fit with Evans?

Evans' speciality is penetration and getting to the hoop. What he needs from SF is someone who can defended and shoot the 3 ball and IMHO MKG will never shoot well. If you think Tyreke's shot is bad, this kid has so many things wrong with his jumper that it will never be corrected.

Now if we draft MKG, I walk away happy but I also don't have high expectations in terms of his overall potential. I am more intrigued by Moe Harkless and his potential. He has length, athleticism, better handles and a better shot. Long term he could be a better player than MKG.
Never say never. If a guy has the work ethic (which he does) he can develop a good enough jumpshot. Guys like Gerald Wallace and Iggy don't shoot that well either, but they're stars are they not?

And to answer your other question, yes, that IS all I want from my 5th pick - an outstanding defender and a super glue guy, who can hit some open shots. We don't need an offensive star player, we've already got 2-4 of them.
 
#49
I wouldn't call him very good.

He's a career 33% 3point shooter, and career 42 FG%.

Last 2 years he was an ok shooter at 37% - but calling him a very good shooter from 3 is a major stretch. that's been his weakness throughout his career, and he's been up and down with it - with his up not being that great anyways.

Defensively though, he's amazing.

I think he's overrated, and I don't think personally that he's worth him + 14 for the #5. that's overrating him and undervaluing the #5 pick.
I am looking at his last 2 years where he has been consistently a good 3pt shooter. 37% from long range is nothing to sneeze at. That is better than Marcus Thornton over the last 2 seasons or even since entering the league.

Lowry has obviously worked on his shot and has been consistently good from 3 for the last two seasons. A 37% shooter from 3 is very good, it is not an easy thing to do.

Pick 5 in this year's draft likely does not get you an all-star type player. Drummond could be that guy but he could just as easily bust.

Never say never. If a guy has the work ethic (which he does) he can develop a good enough jumpshot. Guys like Gerald Wallace and Iggy don't shoot that well either, but they're stars are they not?

And to answer your other question, yes, that IS all I want from my 5th pick - an outstanding defender and a super glue guy, who can hit some open shots. We don't need an offensive star player, we've already got 2-4 of them.
For a pick 5 in the draft you better well get more than a outstanding perimeter defender and a glue guy and as much as I love MKG, he is no where near as athletic as Wallace and Iggy. He is also no where near the ball handler or creator that Iggy is. Those comparisons are widely exaggerated. And since we are comparing shooting mechanics, I can't remember the last time I have seen a player with as ugly shot as MKG. That little hitch he has is going to be be difficult to correct. He also shoots in on the way down, with the hitch and elbow already pointing outwards.

If I can get potentially a more complete player lower in the draft and pick up other assets along the way, then I would rather do that.

The bottom line for me is, I want us to get the most bang for buck with that pick 5. Whether that means we draft the player who makes us significantly better straight away, or a player who is a long term prospect or I trade it for a veteran who will help me straight away and pick up a kid that has a chance to be a very good player in the league in a couple of years time.

There have been many #5 picks who have busted over the years. This team needs to start producing now. As you said we don't need a star but we need a lot of other things and if I can use pick 5 to get as many of those other things as I can, then I would do it.

Lets say I can trade pick 5, Hayes or Salmons (both terrible contracts) for Lowry, Dalembert and pick 14 then I can address more needs than I could with pick 5.

With pick 5 I get a good young player who fits OK (MKG) or does not fit well without follow up moves (Barnes, Robinson or Beal).

With the trade above I get the following:

1. One of the best defensive PGs in the league who has also shot 37% from 3 for the last 2 seasons. A player who also rebounds well for his position and is 25 or 26 years of age at a pretty good contract
2. I get some length, shot blocking and rebounding in Dalembert. I also know his production and I know he played very well with my main guy (Cousins) a couple of seasons ago when they got paired in the line up. He also gives me production right way and gives me more time to see if Whiteside is my guy long term
3. I get rid of one ugly long term deal and even if I don't like Dalembert, I can waive him and pay $1.5 million of his contract, or I can pick up his option and roll out a big front court next season.
4. With pick 14 I can pick up a kid who will be productive player in the league. Its still a lottery pick and there will be some good players still available. Will I pick Harkless who many say would be a top 10 pick next year if he stayed in college. A 6'9" SF with great potential. Or do I go Terrance Jones or any other player in that range.

I cover more weaknesses, for similar money and I don't sacrifice the long term outlook for the team. I improve my team significantly for next season by getting in 2 very good defenders in the starting line up. If my owners are willing to spend some money I can shop for a SF in free agency, or I have the flexibility of trading one of IT (Lowry is an upgrade at PG) or MT to get my SF or I could just throw my pick 14 to the wolves and develop him that way.

The way I look at it, I am getting more value from trade than picking up a player. I also need to look at the long term finances for the team. I know I am going to have to max out Cousins soon. I also know if Evans gets a consistent jump shot and re-discovers his form from rookie season I am going to have to max him out as well (or close to it). That chews up a lot of my capspace. Thornton is on a reasonable contract but I got so many holes to fill for the rest of the roster and only so much money to spend.

If you get too many stars you end up in position that Chicago is in at the moment and where OKC will be when it comes time to extend Harden and Ibaka. Unless of course you get your stars signing for less money or you have super rich owners happy to play luxury tax (win at any cost), both of which are unrealistic expectations.
 
#50
But Kings won't be able to afford Deng's contract. He is getting some major coin over the next 2 years (over $13M and $14M respectively) and he will likely miss the start of the season recovering from surgery. Those are the things we might not be comfortable taking on. With Maloofs of 10 years ago its a no brainer. This version of penny pinching Maloofs, there is no chance we do that trade.

From a basketball perspective, it makes a lot of sense for us but I am not sure we have the finances to pull it off.
cousins, daly, deng, reke, lowry???

playoffs guaranteed

mt/salmons for deng+their 1st round pick
 
#52
cousins, daly, deng, reke, lowry???

playoffs guaranteed

mt/salmons for deng+their 1st round pick
Bulls don't want to take on more salary, hence why they are looking to trade Deng and/or Noah and even if they did, there is no way that Maloofs pony up that much cash for Deng. They are broke and are looking to do it the cheap way and it means not paying someone 13 or 14 million per season for the next 2 years if that guy is not a perennial all-star level player.

Deng is a pipe dream. Lowry is more realistic since he is a bit of a bargain making $5.75M next season and a team option for just over $6million for the 2013-2014 season. He is a very productive player (borderline all-star last year and this year before that blood virus) getting paid less than Salmons, Garcia and around the same money as Hayes.
 
#53
Houston trades -K.Lowry, #14 and #16
Sacramento trades -Chuck Hayes and #5

Houston gets rid of headache Lowry
Sacramento drafts Moe Harkless and Terrence Jones (or Leonard)


Moe will be working out with the kings today, and they tried to get in Jeremy Lamb and Terrence Jones to come in before the draft.....

K.Lowry/IT
Tyreeek/Thorton
Harkless/Honeycutt
JT/Terrence Jones
Cousins/Whiteside (rest are crap, unless T.will resigns)

this would guarantee the maloof will look like they tried without actually spending any money because you know they won't
BUT..... in a perfect world we sign BATUM


K.Lowry/IT
Tyreeek/Thorton
Batum/Harkless
JT/Leonard
Cousins/Whiteside
 
#55
I am looking at his last 2 years where he has been consistently a good 3pt shooter. 37% from long range is nothing to sneeze at. That is better than Marcus Thornton over the last 2 seasons or even since entering the league.

Lowry has obviously worked on his shot and has been consistently good from 3 for the last two seasons. A 37% shooter from 3 is very good, it is not an easy thing to do.

Pick 5 in this year's draft likely does not get you an all-star type player. Drummond could be that guy but he could just as easily bust.



For a pick 5 in the draft you better well get more than a outstanding perimeter defender and a glue guy and as much as I love MKG, he is no where near as athletic as Wallace and Iggy. He is also no where near the ball handler or creator that Iggy is. Those comparisons are widely exaggerated. And since we are comparing shooting mechanics, I can't remember the last time I have seen a player with as ugly shot as MKG. That little hitch he has is going to be be difficult to correct. He also shoots in on the way down, with the hitch and elbow already pointing outwards.

If I can get potentially a more complete player lower in the draft and pick up other assets along the way, then I would rather do that.

The bottom line for me is, I want us to get the most bang for buck with that pick 5. Whether that means we draft the player who makes us significantly better straight away, or a player who is a long term prospect or I trade it for a veteran who will help me straight away and pick up a kid that has a chance to be a very good player in the league in a couple of years time.

There have been many #5 picks who have busted over the years. This team needs to start producing now. As you said we don't need a star but we need a lot of other things and if I can use pick 5 to get as many of those other things as I can, then I would do it.

Lets say I can trade pick 5, Hayes or Salmons (both terrible contracts) for Lowry, Dalembert and pick 14 then I can address more needs than I could with pick 5.

With pick 5 I get a good young player who fits OK (MKG) or does not fit well without follow up moves (Barnes, Robinson or Beal).

With the trade above I get the following:

1. One of the best defensive PGs in the league who has also shot 37% from 3 for the last 2 seasons. A player who also rebounds well for his position and is 25 or 26 years of age at a pretty good contract
2. I get some length, shot blocking and rebounding in Dalembert. I also know his production and I know he played very well with my main guy (Cousins) a couple of seasons ago when they got paired in the line up. He also gives me production right way and gives me more time to see if Whiteside is my guy long term
3. I get rid of one ugly long term deal and even if I don't like Dalembert, I can waive him and pay $1.5 million of his contract, or I can pick up his option and roll out a big front court next season.
4. With pick 14 I can pick up a kid who will be productive player in the league. Its still a lottery pick and there will be some good players still available. Will I pick Harkless who many say would be a top 10 pick next year if he stayed in college. A 6'9" SF with great potential. Or do I go Terrance Jones or any other player in that range.

I cover more weaknesses, for similar money and I don't sacrifice the long term outlook for the team. I improve my team significantly for next season by getting in 2 very good defenders in the starting line up. If my owners are willing to spend some money I can shop for a SF in free agency, or I have the flexibility of trading one of IT (Lowry is an upgrade at PG) or MT to get my SF or I could just throw my pick 14 to the wolves and develop him that way.

The way I look at it, I am getting more value from trade than picking up a player. I also need to look at the long term finances for the team. I know I am going to have to max out Cousins soon. I also know if Evans gets a consistent jump shot and re-discovers his form from rookie season I am going to have to max him out as well (or close to it). That chews up a lot of my capspace. Thornton is on a reasonable contract but I got so many holes to fill for the rest of the roster and only so much money to spend.

If you get too many stars you end up in position that Chicago is in at the moment and where OKC will be when it comes time to extend Harden and Ibaka. Unless of course you get your stars signing for less money or you have super rich owners happy to play luxury tax (win at any cost), both of which are unrealistic expectations.
Which is exactly why I'm perfectly fine with us picking a guy like MKG, who can be a perfect glue guy for us for many many years to come, and won't cost us a giant bomb in the event that he doesn't become the next Iggy.

I guess for me it's about how we're going to address the SF hole, which is our biggest problem IMO, more so than shotblocking. If our only good takeaway from trading the #5 is Lowry then I say no. I don't care about dumping Salmons' and Hayes' contracts as much because we really don't need the cap space that much at this point in time, even if it brings back Daly (who's performance I would question and who we'd only have for a year essentially before having to re-sign him or something). So it then comes down to who we can get with #14. If we can get a guy to finally fill that SF hole of our's then fine, pull the trigger. But if we end up losing out on MKG just to get Lowry and a one year rental of Daly then I don't think you should do it, even if it lets us dump Salmons or Hayes. PG is not one of our biggest weaknesses right now.

In any case, my biggest concern is that I don't think Petrie will get us any good value for the #5. I'm much, much more comfortable with us simply keeping the pick.
 
#56
I'd rather have Dalembert than #16. In my perfect world, we would make those moves:

- trade #5 and Hayes for Lowry, Dalembert and #14
- pick Jeff Taylor, Terrence Jones or Moe Harkless, whoever Petrie feels is the better player (Moultire or Henson could be options too)
- amnesty Salmons
- re-sing Williams and Thompson

Our roster would look like this:

Lowry (30) - Evans (33) - Taylor (24) - Dalembert (24) - Cousins (32)
Thomas (18) - Thornton (30) - Williams (15) - Thompson (28) - Whiteside (6)
Fredette - Garcia - Honeycutt

This looks like a team that could fight for a playoff spot. Huge improvements on D, and enough minutes to get every one involved and happy. Jimmer won't get any minutes, but he still has to prove we can count on him.
We would have minutes with Lowry (or IT), Thornton and Evans on the court together, but that's not a problem because it would be for limited minutes. The Heat in the finals went with small lineups with 3 guards, and it worked just fine.

Like Carolija said, we would address 3 needs with our 5th pick, with the plus of dumping Chuck's contract.
 
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#57
If the Kings could get involved in this it would be awesome. The #5 pick has great value, but the Kings are not perfect fit for the 5 standout guys (besides the unreachable Davis). MKG is the only guy worth changing your roster for (Cuz/Reke/MKG with MT/IT/JT supporting sounds like a winner).

But with this move the team can move down and get a lesser player but better (and cheaper for the Maloofs) fit while adding some serious talent in Lowry.
Or if they get involved with something bigger with TOR/ORL, move one of the bad contracts for another bad but better fitting one (I would gladly turn Salmons or Hayes into Dalembert, Calderon, or Turkoglu)
 
#59
I'd rather have Dalembert than #16. In my perfect world, we would make those moves:

- trade #5 and Hayes for Lowry, Dalembert and #14
- pick Jeff Taylor, Terrence Jones or Moe Harkless, whoever Petrie feels is the better player (Moultire or Henson could be options too)
- amnesty Salmons
- re-sing Williams and Thompson

Our roster would look like this:

Lowry (30) - Evans (33) - Taylor (24) - Dalembert (24) - Cousins (32)
Thomas (18) - Thornton (30) - Williams (15) - Thompson (28) - Whiteside (6)
Fredette - Garcia - Honeycutt

This looks like a team that could fight for a playoff spot. Huge improvements on D, and enough minutes to get every one involved and happy. Jimmer won't get any minutes, but he still has to prove we can count on him.
We would have minutes with Lowry (or IT), Thornton and Evans on the court together, but that's not a problem because it would be for limited minutes. The Heat in the finals went with small lineups with 3 guards, and it worked just fine.

Like Carolija said, we would address 3 needs with our 5th pick, with the plus of dumping Chuck's contract.
Yes this would be good, but you'd have to be damn sure that you could pick up one of the 3 guys you mentioned and that they'd be able to contribute right away.
 
#60
I guess I'm in the minority that doesn't really like Lowry. If this deal goes down we'd better ship off a bad contract or two with the #5 pick.
If the team moves Thornton or Jimmer/IT+bad contract for a sweet shooting SF or big, the team will come out a lot better.
The perimeter defense will be good enough so you can get by with 10min of Whiteside as your shotblocker, like the Heat with Anthony.

If they somehow turn Hayes back into Dalembert? Fighting for a playoff spot is possible.
Lowry/IT/Jimmer
Evans/Salmons/Garcia
???/Outlaw/Honeycutt
Dalembert/JT
Cuz/???/Whiteside

The 2 question marks can be filled by trading Thornton and adding a midround pick. Plus an early 2nd rounder for Dleague or stashing in Europe.
That team is young and stacked.