Tyreke's lack of progression

Kingsguy881 · Feb 17, 2012

Yeah but if you look at any championship squad, a scoring 2 guard will be a common denominator. So while you might not agree with the people who want Evans gone, its obvious that they are not as educated about what pieces you need in order to win the big prize. Mr. Layer once posted probably the best formula for how a championship squad should be constructed. Wish I could find that post.

Mr. S£im Citrus · Feb 17, 2012

Kingsguy881 said:

Yeah but if you look at any championship squad, a scoring 2 guard will be a common denominator. So while you might not agree with the people who want Evans gone, its obvious that they are not as educated about what pieces you need in order to win the big prize. Mr. Layer once posted probably the best formula for how a championship squad should be constructed. Wish I could find that post.

So, you believe, then, that Evans should be a full-time 2 guard?

Kingsguy881 · Feb 17, 2012

Mr. S£im Citrus said:

The same way Wade is a full time 2 guard, yes.

Kingsguy881 · Feb 17, 2012

^^^with the ball in his hands, making plays.

Mr. S£im Citrus · Feb 17, 2012

So, do you get a "pure" point guard to play with him. And, if so, how good does that PG have to be?

spudfan · Feb 17, 2012

I think all you who wouldn't resign Evans are crazy! Do you guys think those of us who want to sign him are crazy too? Or you can see why we would want to sign him, you just wouldn't do it? The main reason I like Evans is because of his ability to get layups. Having him and Cousins being able to get good shots close to the rim gives us two high percentage scorers. That's the kind of team I feel comfortable building around, much more than jump shooters. Add a few who CAN make open shots consistently outside and you start to have a good team. When Evans is attacking we are at our best.

spudfan · Feb 17, 2012

Mr. S£im Citrus said:

I think he doesn't have to be that good, ala Mike Bibby when he could make open 3s or like the heat have now, Chalmers who makes open 3s too. Jimmer could be that kind of player in a couple years I think.

Kingsguy881 · Feb 17, 2012

Mr. S£im Citrus said:

Honestly, I would want Doug Christie reincarnated playing next to him, in an ideal world of course. A backcourt of Tyreke and DC Clone would absolutely KILL the league.

upinsmoke · Feb 17, 2012

Mr. S£im Citrus said:

Yes look guys Tyreke is not getting traded all I am trying to get across is if I had the keys to the franchise I would explore ways to move Reke for another star level talent to play along side Cuz. Back to reality DJ Augustin would help Evans game tremendously a pressure release if you will. Tyreke is a slasher thats one thing im sure we can all agree on. A pg to run the offense would elevate the team instantly. We will never turn the corner with Evans dominating the ball.

Kingsfan23 · Feb 17, 2012

Were his teammates any better two years ago? were defenses not focusing on him two years ago? I don't get some of the excuses

The thing that drives me crazy about Tyreke is I don't feel he has the appropriate drive/work ethic, but he does have the talent. If it were just a case of him putting forth the work to fulfill his talent level and it still not working out, I wouldn't care.

I don't like lackadaisical players.. this is the reason I DON'T have a problem with Salmons.. Grant said that he has been practicing his butt off, it just hasn't come for him

Bricklayer · Feb 17, 2012

Kingsfan23 said:

And your eveidence that reke has not is....?

Meanwhle you laud Salmons, who is such a low energy player I've actually long beleived he sucks the energy right out of the rest of the team in the process. Curious.

IfAt1st · Feb 17, 2012

Let's be real - NOONE... and I mean NOONE would WANT Tyreke gone from the Kings' roster for nothing.

The HUGE question that the Tyreke apologists are not comprehending is.... what is Tyreke WORTH at present?

Go ahead - don't stand behind "he'll get better" and "he's critical to the team" - the Kings only have ONE MORE YEAR with Tyreke next year, before they have to compete for his services with other teams.
Keep in mind, I've challenged this board not once but twice and they haven't come up with one thing that Tyreke's gotten better in since his rookie year.

How much would you be willing to pay for Tyreke's services?
Put your money where your mouths are. Give a number.

Section 101 · Feb 17, 2012

IfAt1st said:

Actually your wrong. They can extend him this summer or he becomes a restricted free agent. He can take an extension, sign an offer sheet the Kings can match or take the qualifying offer and become an unrestricted free agent.

The question is will Evans want the 5 year extension or will he take a 4? They can only give a 5 year to Evans or Cuz, not both.

As far as numbers go, Westbrook (#4 pick like Evans) got 5 year 80 mil (16mil/year) (durant doesn't apply to the new rule, but they can only give Harden 4 years now). Evans isn't worth Westbrook money at this point. Love took 4 years $62 mil (15.5mil/year). Gallo got 4 year $42 mil ($10.5mil/year).

So probably around 4 year 40-50 mil ($10-12.5/year).

TehSwimGuy · Feb 18, 2012

Kingsguy881 said:

You can look this up, since I'm not going to bother posting the stats again (Already did so on STR), but as of yet, you can't really compare Reke and Wade.

Someone tried to compare the rookie years of Wade, Lebron, Kobe, Reke. However, they improved in FG% steadily and maintained rather high FG% throughout their careers so far. Tyreke's, however, while basically on par rookie year, has driven steadily downward for the first several years.

Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with his fadeaway shot. You see those on highlight reels because they're hard to make. Interestingly enough, he never does it on those halfcourt shots. Probably more luck that they go in, but still, it's interesting.

But my question is this: I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because PW probably let him walk all over him and do whatever he wanted. But under Smart, hypothetically, if we see no improvement at all in his shot, he comes in next season with the same old nonsense with the fadeaway, etc, what then?

I think then, and only then, should we ask some questions about what he's doing to improve himself.

mac · Feb 18, 2012

TehSwimGuy said:

I think most of us here would agree with you. With a full season under a proper coach, after 3 seasons of losing, a guy should be showing improvement. What most of us here are saying is that we should give him the benefit of the doubt due to the inexperience of the team overall, the lack of vets to mentor the young guys, and the lack of coaching so far in Tyreke's career. If next season he still hasn't improved, you can count me in on the "lost confidence in Tyreke" team.

Kingster · Feb 18, 2012

Bricklayer said:

There is no evidence that Tyreke has had a great work ethic. Haven't heard those reports. Have you? is he working tirelessly before games? Before practices? In fact, what I've seen in games recently is a lazy defensive player. That doesn't imply a workaholic to me. (Look at the contrast with Jason Thompson. He does get recognition for his work ethic. And his body shows it.) A player of Tyreke's stature would get recognition for a tremendous work ethic, don't you think? Napier would certainly talk about it. I hear from Smart that he's receptive to change, which is great. But I still haven't heard about work ethic. Lastly, it's hard to believe that with such a tremendous work ethic his progress would have been so limited. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. If in fact he does have a great work ethic and he has been putting in tireless hours in the offseason, before practices, and before games, then the lack of progress in Tyreke's game is even more concerning, because it implies that with a ton of work he still won't get better. Not a happy thought.

IfAt1st · Feb 18, 2012

Just a thought -

For a position like PG (or the primary ballhandler), looking at tape/video and learning the way that NBA defenses work is actually more important than physical exercise or repetition in drills to get better. It would be like an NFL quarterback who has lots of physical skills, can throw the ball fast and hard, but completely lacks the ability to study and learn the way the complex NFL defensive schemes work. The NFL is littered with top quarterback prospects who could never learn the sport and excel.

I've never once heard even one casual mention of Tyreke's interest or habit in breaking down the film and learning the game. This observation is backed up by the troubling evidence that he hasn't been able to improve his jumpshot (which involves re-wiring his brain and body) even after 3 offseasons and over 2 full years of professional coaching.

I do not have any confidence in Tyreke's interest or ability in the mental side of the game.
That, more than anything, I fear, limits Tyreke's upper ceiling in the NBA.

Glenn · Feb 18, 2012

IfAt1st said:

Very possibly true. It may have been very unfortunate for us fans to have fallen into the media hype that had him compared with 4 of the top NBA stars to ever have played the game by his statistical achievement in his first year. Maybe what we are seeing is just Tyreke and most expectations we have had about him are a mixture of the desire to have a real star on our team and to win. It is more wishful than realistic. As it is, he's not bad. I cannot even have a sensible conversation with people who think he is bad.

He does not have the judgment of a PG in that he has always been the stud on his team and coaches have not tried to turn him into a thinking player who analyzes what is best for him to do in certain situations. He has been encouraged to see himself as the solution. It's a hard habit to break as several times with the Kings, he HAS been the solution.

I agree with what I think is the underlying message in a lot of notes that he might not be overly bright and the term basketball IQ enters the picture. Can he change? I don't know but think it is way to early to make a final assesment. Let Cousins be the man to take us to the promised land. Cousins is asking to be that man and actually can back up his demands. Let's layoff Tyreke and lower our expectations of him and hope that he sees that Cousins is "the man" and for once in his life he will need to differ to someone else. This is new territory for Tyreke and I will bet that no one on this forum thought that Cousins would turn out to be what he is and I mean that in an overall sense.

I hope Tyreke pulls out some films but I doubt this is something that has never been a natural part of his routine. It's another thing on Smart's list of coaching "things to do" before next season starts.

I hope we can end this discussion soon as it has taken too many personal turns and maybe some of us should look to ourselves and our attitudes towards Tyreke and other posters and less at him. I'll let other people to figure out what I mean.

Honest, it was profound.

VF21 · Feb 18, 2012

Kingster said:

Actually, it's most often the negative side of this that is rumored, whispered, etc. Turn it around. There is no evidence that Tyreke does NOT have a great work ethic. Haven't heard those reports. Have you?

Just sayin'.

Gary · Feb 18, 2012

Kingsguy881 said:

If Gerald was with this team he would have been getting a LOT more minutes.. He did start a few times in his first couple years with us and he put up decent numbers. People knew he was good, but at the time he was not what the team needed night in and night out. And I tend to trust Adelman just a tad bit more than you.

Evans PG experiment is pretty much over when you have a second round draft pick ROOKIE starting at the point instead of the guy that the Magoof was screaming about on the stage how he was going to save this franchise ect ect. But I refuse to argue with people who can't say they were wrong. And sure enough you will say you aren't wrong because his first year was a fluke, and second year foot problems, and third year two coaches, and lockout and then the fourth year it will be his normal first year if he went to college for four years and his first full season with Smart ect ect...

Excuse after excuse. I am looking forward to hearing the excuses after year six or seven.

swisshh · Feb 18, 2012

Here's the thing: For Reke to dominate the ball then he needs to be Wade/Kobe good. He's nowhere near that point. If he's not that good then he's one of those wary B-tier ball stoppers like Arenas. You don't get that far with players like that. First round playoff exit is your tops. He's really not even at that tier yet either though. The second problem is players have normally shown where they can be by now, so to say he's "young" is pointless. So were all the other stars people like to defend him with. The problem is that those players all improved year by year. Their points went up and other aspects of their game improved. They were hitting the playoffs already. Most were making the all-star game by their third season. The truth is that Reke is on the other side of the pole from those guys. His production has dropped off, his skills in other areas have remained the same and his defensive focus has dropped off.

So that leaves Reke to not dominate the ball. That's just the reality of it. A player must be much better than Reke to dominate the ball and have his team succeed. He needs to improve his shooting and off the ball awareness. HE needs to play in a way that helps the team and no longer must the rest of the team settle for less to accommodate him.

rhythmless · Feb 18, 2012

VF21 said:

It's been 3 years and we see no real improvement in his jump shot, one of the most basic components of a basketball player. This singular skill does not require a stable coach, or even a coach at all. It's not about form; if you practice with bad form long enough, it will eventually be consistent. All it requires is time spent at the gym.

Now, in the interest off covering bases, we do not know that he isn't putting in 3 hours a day on his shot. So let's say he is doing this everyday. If he is trying oh so very hard and still not getting a consistent jump shot, then he is someone who either lacks the coordination or iq to have a jump shot.

So, If you will agree with me on the general assumption that obtaining a jump shot is merely repetition and analysis of incorrect jump shots, and can be done completely with a ball, a hoop, and some time (from a competent individual), then we are left with only a couple conclusions: Tyreke is either a talented player who has not put in the individual effort to gain a consistent jumpshot, or he is someone who tries very hard yet lacks the proper coordination to have said jumpshot.

Given his propensity for wildly hard angles on layups, body control after contact, and above average nba handles for a player his size, I do not think it unjustified to go with the former conclusion.

Mad D · Feb 18, 2012

You leave out the element of confidence. The one skill that Douby was drafted for and was reported to be lights out in practice couldn't keep him in the league because he lacked confidence.

You can see it with Tyreke, the way he pumps once when left on the perimeter when he should shot the first shot and then sometimes going into a drible just to create some type of comfort zone and rhythm.

When I was younger I had a poor shooting form where the ball was almost released at eye level and with a slight twist. No amount of practice with that form was going to create consistency. I had developed that shot from elementary school to high school until I was fortunate enough to have a coach approach me to destroy and rebuild it to a traditional form. When that fixed shot didn't work I reverted hoping that the old way would work since I've been so used to it. This created all sorts of inconsistency and rattled my confidence so much others would pick up on this and end up icing me out of the offense. It was extremely hard to break out of something that was ingrained into my muscle memory. I can't imagine trying to break out of bad habits with the most athletic defenses in the world coming after you night after night. I do feel that work is being done fixing Reke's shot but the confidence and some in game discipline is not there.

Andre87 · Feb 19, 2012

still dont understand how some ppl here still think that Tyreke is our best player

mac · Feb 19, 2012

Andre87 said:

still don't understand how some ppl here think that Tyreke is a bad one.

Kingster · Feb 19, 2012

VF21 said:

VF21, you've been around this organization for a long time. You know that you rarely hear that from the Kings org, except after a guy has been traded. Then, swoosh, it all comes out. Greene is the one example I can think of where it did come out and with him it was obvious because he was overweight. Also, he was Westphal's "punching bag", the guy you want to make an example of to send a message to the rest of the team; not the Golden Child that you didn't hear a peep of criticism about. What you do hear is about the guys who do work out assiduously. Thompson is an excellent example. And going back a ways, Price was another. And more recently, back to Greene, you hear about him working out. You hear nothing about Tyreke.

PS We better hope that a lack of work ethic, or a lack of an intelligent work is the issue with Tyreke. Because like I said, if his work ethic is stellar, the the lack of progress he's made is extremely concerning. Then we would have much evidence to conclude that he will not progress much in the future, regardless of work ethic.

Warhawk · Feb 19, 2012

mac said:

Agreed. I think DMC is the best player, but folks throwing Evans under the bus are just loony.

Goo · Feb 19, 2012

I think there are 3 things that people seen to forgot.
1. PG and center are the hardest position to play, just look at Reke's inconsistent and Boogie's FG %
2. Both are below the rim players, when you can't dunk your FG% go down to hell even if you are in good scoring positions.
3. Both are big and strong which is best use in half court O but don't know how to get it done yet. Maybe Westfail can tell us why.

To answer 1 and 2, they need to slow the game down and add a go to move. Reke need to catch the ball in the wing and bully his way down to the key and shoot over the other PG aka what PP is doing every night. Boogie in the low post and use a hook shoot. Since they can not be stop 1 on 1 the other team have to double and it open up for others.

For 3 we can just hope Smart is a good teacher.

We have 2 unique player in our hand and throw them under the bus these early is a very bad idea, once both players understand shoot outside of 20ft is bad for them we will start to win games.

plz forgive my eng.

bajaden · Feb 19, 2012

Gary said:

Well, Facts aren't excuses. They're facts. What he did his first year wasn't a fluke. The problem is, the league adjusts, and you also have to adjust. I wrote off last season not because he was a King, but because I would write off the season for any player that suffered what he went through. However, that doesn't excuse his lack of progession with his jumpshot, which is his main problem. When he has the time to think about it, (and you shouldn't have to think about it) he has nice form on his shot, he goes straight up, and he makes a high percentage of those shots. Usually spotting up outside the circle.

But when he doesn't think about it, he fades away, his leg kicks out, and he misses a high percentage of his shots. Usually short and off the front of the rim. Its muscle memory, and you have to change it with repetition. Under stress, your body will revert back to what its comfortable with, regardless of success. Sorry, but to me, that speaks to a person that just didn't put in enough time to make the change. To be fair, he may have thought he did. But you don't change maybe 10 years of doing something one way overnight. You do it by taking at least 500 jumpshots a day in the offseason with a shooting coach watching every shot. As the great golfer Ken Venturi said, " The more I practice, the luckier I get."

Tyreke is a surpremely talented player who can do things most players in the NBA are incapable of. He doesn't need much change to move to the next level, but he does need to make that change. Now whether he's in the best shape he can be or not, I have no idea. He seldom looks tired on the floor, so I doubt its an issue. Would he be quicker if he were 10 pounds lighter? Maybe, maybe not. Would he give up strength to lose that weight? Once again, don't know. I have seen progress in Tyreke's ability to find the open man, even if it doesn't always result in an assist.

I think his time under Westphal was a waste, and a coach like Smart or a Larry Brown etc. would have had him progressing much faster. Westphal simply had stars in his eyes and gave Tyreke carte blanche. Now Tyreke is being asked to come back down to earth and be a mortal like the rest of the team. Something that needed to be done. But its an adjustment for Tyreke.

pshn80 · Feb 19, 2012

Baja, very good statement of how it is. Tyreke needs more people around him that are ball handlers, smart about passing and moving without the ball, and if I dare say it, a lead play maker, and a system of play coached and adopted with players that can do it and do do it. If the team had more of that we wouldn't be having this same conversation about Evans. But we don't and we have the conversation. It is for the good as long as we don't shoot the coach, Tyreke or anyone else.

Tyreke's lack of progression

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