Should Jimmer become a starter?
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I said start him over Marcus... then have Thorton back up both Jimmer and Tyreke switching back and forth from the 1 and 2 as needed. As long as Marcus gets as many minutes as he gets now, we would hopefully have a more balanced starting 5 and MT23 would still get his shots and be effective.
... With Tyreke and Thorton's scoring capabilities we should be putting up pretty good numbers with the starters... but we aren't. Lets balance it out with distributer like Jimmer (who is a great floor stretcher like MT23 also) and having Thorton come in and put us over the top off the bench.
Do an Adelman and shorten the rotation to around 8-9 players.
... With Tyreke and Thorton's scoring capabilities we should be putting up pretty good numbers with the starters... but we aren't. Lets balance it out with distributer like Jimmer (who is a great floor stretcher like MT23 also) and having Thorton come in and put us over the top off the bench.
Do an Adelman and shorten the rotation to around 8-9 players.
Start Jimmer Fredette right now - not yet. Let him play the Beno Udrih role as he's currently working to master and see where that takes him. Beno got plenty of starts at various times mainly due to assorted Kings injuries and that could be how Jimmer gets into Kings starting lineup from time-to-time as this season progresses. Anyway, starting in NBA is vastly overrated - it's who finishes the damn game in crunch time plus how many actual minutes played on average each night.
Consider two time NBA MVP and multiple all-star Steve Nash in looking at where Jimmer is and where he might get to at this level. Nash mostly sat on the bench for his first 3 seasons before slowly working his way up to starting PG. In seasons 3-4 he was a spot starter, 6th man type (tempo changer) and was only full-time starter by his 5th season in the league. If Jimmer is not exactly speedy, he seems to me similar to Nash in certain ways, like being crafty with his dribble and quicker than it might seem when on the attack. Nash plays both offense and defense angles expertly and keeps his fast dribble in a nifty, flowing way, looking to pass first, as good as any PG that's ever played the game. Only other two guards I ever saw even close to Nash in dribble mode are HOFers Bob Cousy (old film) and Isiah Thomas (watched live several times). Jimmer has much to learn, more to perfect, which he admits, and because he's very smart I doubt he'll take as long as Nash to finally master it all and breakout as "lead guard." Clearly, Fredette has a ways to go before being in the Nash superstar or one-time superstar class - but it's going to be fun watching his rookie year progress. He's going to get plenty of minutes each night as it is and might actually average same or nearly as much time as Kings starters.
Consider two time NBA MVP and multiple all-star Steve Nash in looking at where Jimmer is and where he might get to at this level. Nash mostly sat on the bench for his first 3 seasons before slowly working his way up to starting PG. In seasons 3-4 he was a spot starter, 6th man type (tempo changer) and was only full-time starter by his 5th season in the league. If Jimmer is not exactly speedy, he seems to me similar to Nash in certain ways, like being crafty with his dribble and quicker than it might seem when on the attack. Nash plays both offense and defense angles expertly and keeps his fast dribble in a nifty, flowing way, looking to pass first, as good as any PG that's ever played the game. Only other two guards I ever saw even close to Nash in dribble mode are HOFers Bob Cousy (old film) and Isiah Thomas (watched live several times). Jimmer has much to learn, more to perfect, which he admits, and because he's very smart I doubt he'll take as long as Nash to finally master it all and breakout as "lead guard." Clearly, Fredette has a ways to go before being in the Nash superstar or one-time superstar class - but it's going to be fun watching his rookie year progress. He's going to get plenty of minutes each night as it is and might actually average same or nearly as much time as Kings starters.
Okay, starting Jimmer and Tyreke works for me. I guess Thorntons offense has me leaning toward seeing him as a starter, but then again, having him come off the bench to put up a bunch of points also has strong merits. BTW, my first name is AL but when I signed up that name was already taken and I had to come up with something quick that this site would accept. So, ergo, an abbreviation of Kings fan. I've been reading these posts for years and finally decided to jump in and get my feet wet. So many long-time posters here with a deep understanding of the game. I've been a Kings fan for many years, was a season ticket holder during the glory years and then some. I enjoy reading every post and just want to be one of the guys.
Guys, starting Jimmer right now would be a) premature as he still is trying to figure it out himself; and b) a chemistry disaster, unless he started in place of Salmons, in which case Salmons would still go into a funk. If you do it with Reke, then you just lost him to L.A. when the Lakers come knocking to replace Kobe. You do it to Marcus...you better approach it VERY carefuly, because Marcus is better than Jimmer, he knows it, and he carries a feisty ego with him everywhere he goes.
In any case starting a small rookie PG who can't defend would all but guarantee the failure of this year, which would put us in significant danger of losing Reke anyway with a single season to save the situation, and give us basically one year before we were in critical condition on Cousins as well. And its not necessary. Jimmer is not Rubio. He's half a gunner himself, and he's not going to revolutionize anything for us, while his insertion could cause all sorts of major issues we can't afford.
The clearer solution to our current problems is to reinstitute some actual plays (yes Paul, plays) running Princetonesque sets through Cousins and Hayes. as we were doing at the end of last year. It keeps DeMarcus involved and getting touches which should lesson his own desire to gun everytime he touches the ball. It takes the pressure of running the offense off of the guards. And it should help the second tier players like Salmons, Jimmer, maybe Hickson (not known as cerebral, but can finish) etc. get easier hoops without dribbling around searching. Solves multiple problems with one stone, its somethng we've already done before, and can be familiar with, and it doesn't upset the apple cart before it even gets rolling.
In any case starting a small rookie PG who can't defend would all but guarantee the failure of this year, which would put us in significant danger of losing Reke anyway with a single season to save the situation, and give us basically one year before we were in critical condition on Cousins as well. And its not necessary. Jimmer is not Rubio. He's half a gunner himself, and he's not going to revolutionize anything for us, while his insertion could cause all sorts of major issues we can't afford.
The clearer solution to our current problems is to reinstitute some actual plays (yes Paul, plays) running Princetonesque sets through Cousins and Hayes. as we were doing at the end of last year. It keeps DeMarcus involved and getting touches which should lesson his own desire to gun everytime he touches the ball. It takes the pressure of running the offense off of the guards. And it should help the second tier players like Salmons, Jimmer, maybe Hickson (not known as cerebral, but can finish) etc. get easier hoops without dribbling around searching. Solves multiple problems with one stone, its somethng we've already done before, and can be familiar with, and it doesn't upset the apple cart before it even gets rolling.
Absolutely not. We can't keep changing starting line ups like we have been in these last two seasons. Let's just stick with something and ride with it. If this unit still doesn't do anything come a few months from now, well it's not the starting unit then...it's the whole team not doing what they are supposed to be doing.
I don't think you get it. The Kings starters are not that good. Reke, Thornton, Cousins... there is a reason this team has been really bad in the recent past. I'm not sure where Kings fans get off thinking Thornton and Cousins are anything above mediocre basketball players. Just telling it as it is, really. Not sure how anyone could disagree... unless they think this team's failures have been a reoccurring fluke... year after year...
I know you're looking at this through Jimmer-tinted glasses but he is not even the sixth or seventh best player on this team right now. Boogie, Reke, Marcus, Hayes, Hickson, and possibly JT are better than him as of now. Now will they be better than him by the end of the season, hell if I ****ing know. But as of NOW, as in the present moment in time, he is not.
The same thing happened with Omri fans when we drafted him. Just calm down young grasshopper
The same thing happened with Omri fans when we drafted him. Just calm down young grasshopper
Thornton and Cousins are mediocre? Really? Year after year? How long have you been watching this team? Thornton has played a total of 30 games with the Kings. Cousins is just now starting his 2nd year. You think average players average double doubles and put up 20 a night because that is what Cousins and Thornton are doing right now in their 2nd and 3rd years. You are either ignorant of the recent past or being intentionally obtuse to provoke a reaction.
Right now Jimmer is the best option at PG. It's Petries fault we do not have a better option.
I would make other changes as well. Salmons and Evans should not be starting together. Any of the other SF on the team are a better fit for the starting unit. I would also start Hickson over Hayes. Hayes has no range and just clogs the paint for Cuz to work. Jimmer, Evans, Outlaw, Hickson and Cousins is a much more balanced team and so is the backups of Thornton, Salmons, Hayes, JT and whoever else if you want to go 10 deep.
I would make other changes as well. Salmons and Evans should not be starting together. Any of the other SF on the team are a better fit for the starting unit. I would also start Hickson over Hayes. Hayes has no range and just clogs the paint for Cuz to work. Jimmer, Evans, Outlaw, Hickson and Cousins is a much more balanced team and so is the backups of Thornton, Salmons, Hayes, JT and whoever else if you want to go 10 deep.
Did I argue otherwise? Didn't even mention Jimmer in my post, nor make any sort of indication that I believe he is currently better than those players. Just stating things that seem pretty obvious in accordance with actual reality and this team's success in recent history.
Congrats to Reke for being the top scorer on a bad team... someone had to do it. Maybe if I jacked up as many shots as he did I could average double digits in the NBA, too. Liking a team doesn't mean you have to pretend they are something they are not. The Kings haven't been anywhere close to good... hopefully that changes.
With that said, I could probably pull up the actual stats from the first three games and use math and numbers to disprove some of what you said, but for now there's no use, as I expect most of you to come around with time.
Congrats to Reke for being the top scorer on a bad team... someone had to do it. Maybe if I jacked up as many shots as he did I could average double digits in the NBA, too. Liking a team doesn't mean you have to pretend they are something they are not. The Kings haven't been anywhere close to good... hopefully that changes.
With that said, I could probably pull up the actual stats from the first three games and use math and numbers to disprove some of what you said, but for now there's no use, as I expect most of you to come around with time.
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I'm very happy with Jimmer after being pretty skeptical, honestly. But for now, change nothing. Easy answer. We're 3 damn games into a lockout shortened season. Holy cow. I don't get this obsession with immediate gratification. Were there people on Mavs and Celtics forums ready to bench Rondo or Dirk after their 0-3 starts? Who does that? I feel like I'm in crazy town.
If someone told me that we were going to play the lakers, blazers, and bulls for our first 3 games and come out with a win, a loss, and a game that maybe could have gone either way, I'd think to myself 'sweet!'
Sure, things aren't perfect and there's a lot of work to be done, but we're not even going to give it a week before deciding to fire coaches and bench players? Really? Am I just out of touch?
If someone told me that we were going to play the lakers, blazers, and bulls for our first 3 games and come out with a win, a loss, and a game that maybe could have gone either way, I'd think to myself 'sweet!'
Sure, things aren't perfect and there's a lot of work to be done, but we're not even going to give it a week before deciding to fire coaches and bench players? Really? Am I just out of touch?
Quix, I don't think you're out of touch, but you sir, like many other posters at the site use an unfair advantage and that is, logic. I look upon many at this board as “kindred spirits”who long for the days of yore. The word “passionate “ somehow doesn't seem strong enough to adequately describe the fervor of Kings fans here. As for me, I confess, I want immediate gratification. I long for a return to the “glory days”. It's painful to have other teams look upon us as a doormat. Like many other Kings fans here, we paid our dues, we still harbor missing out on an NBA title by “this much”! Back then, when we were rolling, many NBA players wanted to come to and play for Sacramento. Today however, were having problems attracting players even at the point of overpaying them. We've waited a long time, we hunger, we thirst and we have little no tolerance and have understandably lost some or all of our patience. Ah yes, the eternal “impatience versus logic” battle. Somewhere, deep down, I really know that we are in a baby steps mode so please excuse my overzealousness in wanting the team to move along, just a little bit quicker.
I think a lot of fans forget that team didn't come together as a "young" team. Vlade had been in the league for years, and Webber was an established star (albiet a star that had trouble always around him). Of course, Corliss was the only starter remaining from the previous year. They did have youth with JWill and Peja, but the team had a lot of veteran players (who became constantly changing pieces the next few years).
If anything we have 1-3 more years of this suckage before we can see immediate results... or we will have flexible trading pieces...
Garcia is not going to be here much longer, neither is salmons, in my opinion the Beno trade was absolutely horrible, we could have drafted Jimmer anyways and have Beno kind of give him the ropes and a stable piece to run an offense ( or atleast try)
Garcia is not going to be here much longer, neither is salmons, in my opinion the Beno trade was absolutely horrible, we could have drafted Jimmer anyways and have Beno kind of give him the ropes and a stable piece to run an offense ( or atleast try)
I've got a feeling that would have been a stronger overall team (especially given our ability to sign Outlaw off of waivers), although it would have meant few minutes for Jimmer in the early going and Beno would have been put in the uncomfrtable position of grooming a player he knew had been brought in to replace him.
Thing is, SF was just such an obvious hole last year that we just had to try to do SOMETHING. I'm just far from convinced we did the right something and miss Beno's veteran steadiness. Still, Jimmer is a legit talent and has the potential to make up most of what we lost with Beno fairly quickly.
Thing is, SF was just such an obvious hole last year that we just had to try to do SOMETHING. I'm just far from convinced we did the right something and miss Beno's veteran steadiness. Still, Jimmer is a legit talent and has the potential to make up most of what we lost with Beno fairly quickly.
Jimmer should start at PG, yes. However, Tyreke is definitely a starter. Therefore, MT is the sixth man. You lose shooting with MT but you gain it right back with Jimmer, just at a different position. Jimmer should be running this team. Tyreke should be averaging 20-25 a game, which he's capable of.
Jimmer-Tyreke could be a scary good combination if they could actually work out some chemistry. Thornton is not NBA starter material. I realize saying that might offend some kings fans (who are desperate for a hero on this team), but it's the truth. He is a good 6th man at best, who occasionally has amazing games.
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your out of hand... the kid makes good things happen.. i looked at the +- stat on espn and its unreal the difference between his as opposed to tyreke and evans... those two are rediculously selfish.... ive only seen the likes of their selfishness during stephan curry's rookie year.... ellis and cory mcgaddy (sp).... as kings fans you guys should be irrate at this garbage that is being produced in ur name.... im being honest, its one thing to suck, but its another thing entirely to suck this bad but to actually have high caliber/high draft picks not trying to play as a team simply because their is all of a sudden a weird sort of jealousy on the court.... i would never have a evans or a thorton on my squad... they refuse to simply hit the open man.. the #1 rule of team success