Our Defense is Straight up Terrible
- Thread starter miltonap
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I did a note on this a couple of weeks ago -- without Tyreke the Kings actually allow something like 114pts a game. With Tyreke they allow something like 100ppg. I don't think the huge gap is all about Tyreke's man defense, although he is the only strong fullsize backcourt defender we have. I think much more of it is us being unable to control the pace and tempo of the game without Reke. That walking it up everybody complains about? It controls the pace of the game. Takes the air out. Keeps running teams from getting into up and down rhythms. Once he's gone we just play loose and styleless, and without Reke to draw doubles, too many guys force shots and try to create who can't, leadiog to lots of breakouts.
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We were actually very good for quite a stretch, and are really missing Tyreke's perimeter defense. Not sure exactly what the stats are at this point, but without Tyreke we give up close to 117ppg. With him around 103 or 104. It's in that neighborhood.
Another big problem has been Omri getting abused most nights. Not to pick on the guy, but he's been getting lit up on a regular basis. Without Tyreke, we're also normally throwing out an undersized backcourt for the majority of the game, and none of them plays even good defense. Taylor has been a suprise, as well as Thornton, but they're not helping defensively.
Dally hasn't gotten worse. Cousins has gotten better, but it's nowhere near consistent. We're not getting any defense from our pg and sf positions, and are getting only brief sightings from our sg position.
Another big problem has been Omri getting abused most nights. Not to pick on the guy, but he's been getting lit up on a regular basis. Without Tyreke, we're also normally throwing out an undersized backcourt for the majority of the game, and none of them plays even good defense. Taylor has been a suprise, as well as Thornton, but they're not helping defensively.
Dally hasn't gotten worse. Cousins has gotten better, but it's nowhere near consistent. We're not getting any defense from our pg and sf positions, and are getting only brief sightings from our sg position.
As good as Beno is offensively, he often hurts us just as bad defensively. Playing with a strong defender like Reke allows him to be somewhat hidden, but with Thornton next to him, it's just not going to turn out well. Also, it seemed like the team as a whole (besides DMC in 1st half) lacked any energy. This team isn't good enough without Reke to win games without very high energy.
It's really about personnel. We do have a fair share of average or better defenders, but that guard lineup we're putting up while Reke is injured is always going to get torched. Thornton and Udrih are both just poor defenders, and they're receiving tons of minutes right now--but the problem is we need them on the court for their offense, so there's not much we can do to resolve this. Dalembert's just about the only guy who can cover up the paint, but one man can't make a difference. Garcia is ok, probably should get more minutes than Casspi at this stage given that he's the better defender. Playing Jermaine Taylor for sparkplug scoring off the bench is also hurting us defensively.
Our defense has been terrible for quite sometime now, so this is nothing new. Kings tend to make average role players look better than they really are. Once Petrie decides he should get some defenders who won't be liabilites on offense then maybe we can contain the guard penetration and not have our big men bail us out, which they hardly do anyways.
Our poor defensive rotation also exposes our individual weaknesses a lot. I mean lets face it guys, how many times have you seen Cousins just sort of stand there while a tiny point guard goes in for a lay up. The fact that the lane is so open once Beno gets beat already says a lot. As much as Beno gets beat rather often, I think our team pick and roll defense is what hurts us the most. Just one screen and they get either an open shot or a lay up.
It's been bad for almost 5 years. All we do is bounce between bad and turrible.
Our last year of even average defense was our last year with Adelman coaching.
Opponent's FG%, and rank in NBA for that stat, by year
2005-6: 45.4%, 14th
2006-7: 47.2%, 25th
2007-8: 46.6%, 21st
2008-9: 48.3%, 30th
2009-10: 46.9%, 20th
2010-11: 47.7%, 26th
Our last year of even average defense was our last year with Adelman coaching.
Opponent's FG%, and rank in NBA for that stat, by year
2005-6: 45.4%, 14th
2006-7: 47.2%, 25th
2007-8: 46.6%, 21st
2008-9: 48.3%, 30th
2009-10: 46.9%, 20th
2010-11: 47.7%, 26th
Our defense is terr\rible and it is worth talking about. We have to live with some of it because Beno who usually works hard on defense, can't keep up with most point guards in the league, and Tyreke is not playing right now, and others like Omri and Cisco are off and on, therefore, not reliable, the big guys have trouble filling the holes going to the basket. However, if we could continue to get more rebounds, hit our freethrows, make good passes and shots, we might be able to overcome this defensive liability more often. We do it occasionally but our guys right now are too inconsistent.
I guess there are just too many things to work on for this crew. Oh well, keep at it you guys.
I guess there are just too many things to work on for this crew. Oh well, keep at it you guys.
The problem you have there, is that all that would happen 75% of the time once a quick guard gets into the lane is a foul on Cousins. Cousins and Dalembert are the second line of defense, and in truth, they have more responsibility than the guards do. They have to guard their own man and then try to make up for the mistakes of the perimiter players. So I cut them a little slack. Remember, when Beno's man gets beat, your asking Cousins, or Dalembert to leave their own man and cover for Beno's. How many times have you seen Cousins or Dalemberts man dunk the ball behind their backs. When no one rotates to cover your man when you leave, you become more reluctant to leave your man.
What we really have is poor team defense, and that breeds lack of trust between the players. No one wants to look like they've got their pants down out there. Once the defense starts to break down on the perimiter, and your facing an offensively disciplined team like Houston, who keeps passing the ball till they get what they want, bad things are going to happen.
What we really have is poor team defense, and that breeds lack of trust between the players. No one wants to look like they've got their pants down out there. Once the defense starts to break down on the perimiter, and your facing an offensively disciplined team like Houston, who keeps passing the ball till they get what they want, bad things are going to happen.
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Actually our rebounding has been fine. We've outrebounded most of the teams we've played. One of the few bright spots we've had this year. In the close games that we've lost, its mostly been untimely turnovers that have killed us. Last nignt Houston just looked like they wanted it more. They killed us from the perimiter. They're a team that lives and dies by the three point shot. Last night they were making them. When they make them, they're hard to beat.
Actually our rebounding has been fine. We've outrebounded most of the teams we've played. One of the few bright spots we've had this year. In the close games that we've lost, its mostly been untimely turnovers that have killed us. Last nignt Houston just looked like they wanted it more. They killed us from the perimiter. They're a team that lives and dies by the three point shot. Last night they were making them. When they make them, they're hard to beat.
Followed Thorton in College and a bit in NO. He was a decent defender. Nothing to write home about but nothing that would be a detriment to the team or anything. Did well on help, and team D. A bit weak on man, but overall a decent defender. I think pairing him with Tyreke will do him well.
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My concern with Thornton and Tykreke on the same floor is that we lose the height advantage. I do think, however, that the overall defense will again improve with Evans on the floor, as Thornton will be back to beating up on the other team's second unit instead of the starters. I'm also wondering if an Evans/Taylor backcourt would serve us better for the time being - understanding that Beno is the better fit, offensively, anyway.
On our guard situation, who starts, etc., its a hard call, damned if you do and damned if you don't. Tyreke will start. From the rest no one gives you a complete package. Beno, although not known as a big assist guy, is nevertheless, our very best assister to everyone else, best when compared to Thornton and Taylor. So no matter who you pair with Tyreke, you're giving up something significant. I would go with Udrih and Evans and bring our two 6' 4" guards off the bench.
I am really getting sick of KF's blaming all the defensive woes of the Kings on Beno.
Maybe you guys are watching a different NBA than I am.
In the NBA that I see, almost EVERY PG gets past their defender, just like Beno does to opposing PG's who try to guard him.
The NBA is filled with guys that are IMPOSSIBLE to stop from penetrating - I thought this was a well known fact. (?)
And when they can't get around by themselves, they use (gasp!) what is called in real NBA circles.... a p i c k and r o l l.
See, what happens there is that the big guy BLOCKS the little guy's defender, making it impossible to pass thru the big guy's body unless he's intangible (and they haven't found any ghosts yet that have any kind of jumpshot).
I know that I've been watching most of the games this season, and Beno is battling like a mother ****er to get through those screens and around them as quick as humanly possible.
What separates good defenses from bad defenses is how the team defense reacts to this penetration, and then quickly reacts again if they pass. It's split-second reactions, and the Kings as a whole completely lack this ability.
But go ahead - just blame the PG.
Maybe you guys are watching a different NBA than I am.
In the NBA that I see, almost EVERY PG gets past their defender, just like Beno does to opposing PG's who try to guard him.
The NBA is filled with guys that are IMPOSSIBLE to stop from penetrating - I thought this was a well known fact. (?)
And when they can't get around by themselves, they use (gasp!) what is called in real NBA circles.... a p i c k and r o l l.
See, what happens there is that the big guy BLOCKS the little guy's defender, making it impossible to pass thru the big guy's body unless he's intangible (and they haven't found any ghosts yet that have any kind of jumpshot).
I know that I've been watching most of the games this season, and Beno is battling like a mother ****er to get through those screens and around them as quick as humanly possible.
What separates good defenses from bad defenses is how the team defense reacts to this penetration, and then quickly reacts again if they pass. It's split-second reactions, and the Kings as a whole completely lack this ability.
But go ahead - just blame the PG.
I quite agree. It's our team defense and the rotations that are a problem. I can't really pinpoint the blame on any one or two players, because really it's a team thing. You can't expect everyone to be All NBA defensive players, so they just have to find a way to rotate and help well enough to at least make it tougher on opposing teams.
I mean, let's face it. Given our coaching staff and players, it's a given that even when we're good we're not going to be a top defensive team, and our playoff games are going to end with very different scores compared to the 04/05 Pistons and Spurs teams. More likely that we'll play decent defense, but have really good offense, sort of like the Lakers. Right now we're at a disadvantage because of Cousins' foul trouble, and because we need his offense he can't afford to pick up fouls on the defensive end, which is hard to avoid especially being a rookie.
The communication is quite lacking as well. How many times have you seen two of our players yelling at each other for not rotating to help.
I mean, let's face it. Given our coaching staff and players, it's a given that even when we're good we're not going to be a top defensive team, and our playoff games are going to end with very different scores compared to the 04/05 Pistons and Spurs teams. More likely that we'll play decent defense, but have really good offense, sort of like the Lakers. Right now we're at a disadvantage because of Cousins' foul trouble, and because we need his offense he can't afford to pick up fouls on the defensive end, which is hard to avoid especially being a rookie.
The communication is quite lacking as well. How many times have you seen two of our players yelling at each other for not rotating to help.
I'm not sure where you're seeing all of the blame on Beno. Most of us acknowledge that he's the better fit offensively, and I think I did some number-crunching a few months ago that demonstrated he wasn't the worst of our problems on defense. He doesn't hurt us defensively, but he doesn't help us either. However, with Evans out, it's clear that Beno can't be the prime stopper, and frankly, it doesn't look like anyone else other guard on this team can be either. Most are too small, and what we give up in height we make up for with sloth. We're back to the problem with a lack of quality depth that won't improve until Evans returns.
Good posts on Beno. He may be a step slow on defense compared to nost of the league but he's not the main problem on defense, and he generaly works hard. On offense he and Cousins to some extent make the team go. Again, as I mentioned above somewhere, if we could consistently pick it up in one or more of ball handling, taking good shots, making free throws, moving without the ball, any and all of those things we could and have overcome our poor defense. Come on, guys, keep getting better, whichever of you play.
I'll be at the game tonight. Orlando will be looking for them so it will be tough. But what's new? It's always tough.
I'll be at the game tonight. Orlando will be looking for them so it will be tough. But what's new? It's always tough.
Kyrie and Tyreke... Sounds good to me!
And when one considers the fact that A: its a weak draft up top, and B: the Kings are going to relocate... its a given that we land the 1st pick!
Ok...To get back on Topic...
I agree with IfAt1st and Mac. Our team defense is pretty stinky. And while Beno is turrible, the point made by IfAt1st was a good one, most PGs go off these days. They are the quickest players, and with the rules RE: perimeter D, its pretty hard for anyone to guard those lil guys.
We need a good coach, and we need the roster to learn how to play together. Kings are a young team, and a lot of the players have only been together for this season. Of course the team D is going to be bad. Throw in Westphal's love of switching up rotations, and its no wonder we're letting teams score at will.
We only have about 2 1/2 good defenders. Reke, Dally, and Greene (when his head is in the game). JT is decent. The rest run the gamut from mediocre to bad.
But look at the "golden era" team... Not a lot of great defenders on that roster. It was pretty much all Doug, and a rotating cast of bench role players. But that team played great team D.
And when one considers the fact that A: its a weak draft up top, and B: the Kings are going to relocate... its a given that we land the 1st pick!
Ok...To get back on Topic...
I agree with IfAt1st and Mac. Our team defense is pretty stinky. And while Beno is turrible, the point made by IfAt1st was a good one, most PGs go off these days. They are the quickest players, and with the rules RE: perimeter D, its pretty hard for anyone to guard those lil guys.
We need a good coach, and we need the roster to learn how to play together. Kings are a young team, and a lot of the players have only been together for this season. Of course the team D is going to be bad. Throw in Westphal's love of switching up rotations, and its no wonder we're letting teams score at will.
We only have about 2 1/2 good defenders. Reke, Dally, and Greene (when his head is in the game). JT is decent. The rest run the gamut from mediocre to bad.
But look at the "golden era" team... Not a lot of great defenders on that roster. It was pretty much all Doug, and a rotating cast of bench role players. But that team played great team D.
And one of the reasons they played great team D was familiarity. With a consistent rotation, they got to know each other's tendencies and were able to pick up slack because they knew what their teammate would do in a given situation. With such a young roster, it's impossible to get these kinks all ironed out. That doesn't even include rosterpalooza from the coach.