Reke vs Boogie - Control of the Team is Brewing
- Thread starter Purple Reign
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1. lol @ using 3PT% to encompass all the aspects of shooting.
2. I didn't attempt to make the argument of Kobe's improvement based solely on his jumper.
Go back and read my post. I never argued that Kobe's improvement started and ended with his jumper. I said that he made improvements to his game and started making better decisions and became more efficient over his first few years. Kobe has always had questionable shot selection, however his rookie season and those plays in that posted video were especially poor. He did become more of a slasher and balance his game out and become a 45%+ player.
Perhaps you don't understand my response. I'm talking about marked improvement over time. Showing clips from Kobe's rookie season and comparing that to a second year player with tons more experience is actually hurting your argument. Evans had far more experience in his rookie season, and admittedly performed much better than a 18 year old rookie Kobe. However, I'm talking about improvement, and Evans has shown me very little in his second season compared to Kobe's improvement over his first few years.
I didn't say Evans will never improve. I said he hasn't shown me that yet, despite the opportunity to do so, so there's no merit to the argument that he will improve, only that he might. One is an inevitability, the other is a possibility. If you have hope he might, good for you. There's still that possibility. But he's the same player he was last season, so until he proves it on the floor, then I'm not going to compare him to all-nba players.
LMFAO, yeah I have no understanding of pick and roll basketball and decision making from a lead guard. Perhaps you lack understanding of the simple fundamentals of the game, because Evans hasn't shown he's improved. He still makes stupid decisions by forcing his dribble drive, often ending up with poor shots or offensive fouls. He still leaves his feet before a play opens up, often leading to turnovers. He still has an inconsistent jumper to the point of it not being a reliable weapon in the game and an exploitable weakness, and it's still not an alternative to his drive, thus limiting the options in the halfcourt. His lack of shooting is also effecting his pick and roll play. Dude, these are no advanced aspects of the game of basketball, these are fundamental and simple parts of the game.
So? His jumper is still nowhere near to being consistent to be used as a viable option. And again, you are equating 3 pt shooting to shooting ability. They are not mutually exclusive.
Rookie: 1.5 STL, 0.4 BLK in 37:12
This year: 1.7 STL, 0.5 BLK in 37:47
I don't have to look to assists for passing. He was setting up open shooters last year as well, and his teammates weren't knocking them down. He could have averaged 8 assists last season if guys were hitting shots. So I don't buy that he's improved his passing this year, because he was still setting guys up off his drive last year.
He does most of his work with the ball. Where do you draw the conclusion that he's making plays off the ball? I'd love to see where you are getting this.
Not from the eye test, and not from stats either. Why is this so difficult to grasp? Is it because I'm on a kings forum? Even if Evans has improved his jumper (which I haven't seen), he's still not using it and incorporating it into making smarter basketball decisions, and even when he's wide open, his jumpshot is still inconsistent. There are countless examples of defenses playing him for the dribble drive and playing under screens, giving him a jumper he won't take. There's plenty of examples of Evans passing up a mid range pull-up and forcing it into traffic because his game is centered around the drive and he hasn't developed his shot to the point of it opening up his game.
And that game was an anomaly this season. That's the point: these types of games for Evans, from an outside shooting performance, are very few and far between.
First off, he's not improving upon the most simple aspects of basketball, as I have already pointed out regarding fundamental decision-making and pick and roll play. Second, the aspects you mentioned, mainly regarding shooting, have not made significant improvement to the point of changing his game and opening up his options. His entire haflcourt game is still centered on dribble penetration.
2. I didn't attempt to make the argument of Kobe's improvement based solely on his jumper.
Go back and read my post. I never argued that Kobe's improvement started and ended with his jumper. I said that he made improvements to his game and started making better decisions and became more efficient over his first few years. Kobe has always had questionable shot selection, however his rookie season and those plays in that posted video were especially poor. He did become more of a slasher and balance his game out and become a 45%+ player.
Perhaps you don't understand my response. I'm talking about marked improvement over time. Showing clips from Kobe's rookie season and comparing that to a second year player with tons more experience is actually hurting your argument. Evans had far more experience in his rookie season, and admittedly performed much better than a 18 year old rookie Kobe. However, I'm talking about improvement, and Evans has shown me very little in his second season compared to Kobe's improvement over his first few years.
I didn't say Evans will never improve. I said he hasn't shown me that yet, despite the opportunity to do so, so there's no merit to the argument that he will improve, only that he might. One is an inevitability, the other is a possibility. If you have hope he might, good for you. There's still that possibility. But he's the same player he was last season, so until he proves it on the floor, then I'm not going to compare him to all-nba players.
LMFAO, yeah I have no understanding of pick and roll basketball and decision making from a lead guard. Perhaps you lack understanding of the simple fundamentals of the game, because Evans hasn't shown he's improved. He still makes stupid decisions by forcing his dribble drive, often ending up with poor shots or offensive fouls. He still leaves his feet before a play opens up, often leading to turnovers. He still has an inconsistent jumper to the point of it not being a reliable weapon in the game and an exploitable weakness, and it's still not an alternative to his drive, thus limiting the options in the halfcourt. His lack of shooting is also effecting his pick and roll play. Dude, these are no advanced aspects of the game of basketball, these are fundamental and simple parts of the game.
So? His jumper is still nowhere near to being consistent to be used as a viable option. And again, you are equating 3 pt shooting to shooting ability. They are not mutually exclusive.
Rookie: 1.5 STL, 0.4 BLK in 37:12
This year: 1.7 STL, 0.5 BLK in 37:47
I don't have to look to assists for passing. He was setting up open shooters last year as well, and his teammates weren't knocking them down. He could have averaged 8 assists last season if guys were hitting shots. So I don't buy that he's improved his passing this year, because he was still setting guys up off his drive last year.
He does most of his work with the ball. Where do you draw the conclusion that he's making plays off the ball? I'd love to see where you are getting this.
Not from the eye test, and not from stats either. Why is this so difficult to grasp? Is it because I'm on a kings forum? Even if Evans has improved his jumper (which I haven't seen), he's still not using it and incorporating it into making smarter basketball decisions, and even when he's wide open, his jumpshot is still inconsistent. There are countless examples of defenses playing him for the dribble drive and playing under screens, giving him a jumper he won't take. There's plenty of examples of Evans passing up a mid range pull-up and forcing it into traffic because his game is centered around the drive and he hasn't developed his shot to the point of it opening up his game.
And that game was an anomaly this season. That's the point: these types of games for Evans, from an outside shooting performance, are very few and far between.
First off, he's not improving upon the most simple aspects of basketball, as I have already pointed out regarding fundamental decision-making and pick and roll play. Second, the aspects you mentioned, mainly regarding shooting, have not made significant improvement to the point of changing his game and opening up his options. His entire haflcourt game is still centered on dribble penetration.
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This is exactly what I'm talking about: I'm not reacting to positive things with negativity, I'm reacting to negative things with negativity, and few people on this forum want to admit said issues are negative. Cousins' maturity? Not an issue to many here. Evans making the same mistakes he was in his rookie season? Not a problem to many here. Well, to some here, there are too many examples of former players with the same traits to totally ignore things that whether you want to admit them or not, are present.
If memory serves, they were also drafted to teams that had a stronger veteran presence.
I'll check.
Payton - yup.
Stockton - yup. (Interesting makeup of that team.)
Nash - (Behind KJohnson and JKidd, an embarrassment of riches!)
Deron Williams seems to be the only one who would have had the option to "run the team", given the makeup, but he was also coached by a strong-willed Sloan.
I'm not really sure what my point is here, just that teams with a more youthful slant are in full rebuild mode, which means letting your player learn by doing, whereas others with a stronger veteran presence have had the opportunity to learn by those in front of them, or at least, weren't asked to carry the load.
I'll check.
Payton - yup.
Stockton - yup. (Interesting makeup of that team.)
Nash - (Behind KJohnson and JKidd, an embarrassment of riches!)
Deron Williams seems to be the only one who would have had the option to "run the team", given the makeup, but he was also coached by a strong-willed Sloan.
I'm not really sure what my point is here, just that teams with a more youthful slant are in full rebuild mode, which means letting your player learn by doing, whereas others with a stronger veteran presence have had the opportunity to learn by those in front of them, or at least, weren't asked to carry the load.
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And let's say they all had got it? How exactly would it prove your outrageous "average player/anybody could do it" statements if a handful of multiple time All Stars who were in the neighborhood also got 20-5-5? Of course you didn't pick just any multiple time All Stars, you picked ones that you can spin off as cancerous to try to slime Reke in that way too. For a guy who claims not to dislike the guy, you have consistently been rampantly unfair to a rather unassuming young man who's never showed anything like the meness of a Francis or Iverson.
The Kings organization created this artificial goal for Tyreke to convince us all that we had one of the top 4 players in the history of the NBA. Near the end of the year, achieving that goal seemed to be the Kings' job. Maybe in the long run it did a disservice to Tyreke and the team but I can understand the Maloofs wanting the Kings to do something that was worth watching.
He accomplished it despite the opposition gearing up to stop him. Everybody knew what was going on.
Now, what was the reason for this discussion?
He accomplished it despite the opposition gearing up to stop him. Everybody knew what was going on.
Now, what was the reason for this discussion?
Actually, the opposition didn't really try to stop Tyreke from getting his stats. They were using the stats chase to their advantage. Which is not to say that they left Tyreke open to drive every time, but it's pretty clear that they were fine with us focusing our offense in the hands of one rookie. Hence our 11-41 record in last season's final 52 games.
That's more than a little ridiculous, given that the opposition threw everything but the kitchen sink into the paint PRECISELY to stop Tyreke from getting his numbers. Not because they necessarily cared about 20-5-5, but because they vert much cared about winning and they knew that letting Tyreke drive all ove their *** was one of the few ways that squad was going to beat them.
Doesn't matter if their goal was to stop the 20-5-5 or not. Trying to deny that defenses were throwing their best defenders at Reke and stacking men in the paint for the second half of the year is fruitless.
Doesn't matter if their goal was to stop the 20-5-5 or not. Trying to deny that defenses were throwing their best defenders at Reke and stacking men in the paint for the second half of the year is fruitless.
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Like I said, they weren't opening up the lanes for him, but they did lure him into playing a game that was not helping the Kings win. They never tried to prevent him from getting the ball or force him to give it up. They were fine with him dominating the ball, controlling the Kings offense, and making the decisions. And most of them have a W to show for it.
Individual stats are not the end all be all. How you get them is really what matters the most. If Evans fills up the box score, but the rest of the team sucks it up because he's taking all the possessions, I don't think the opposition really cares. Personally, if I was a coach, I'd rather one guy on the opposing team pile up the stats if it means that the rest of the team isn't getting involved. One man shows are not a good recipe for winning.
Because some of us are more hopeful about the team than we were a couple of years ago we're drinking the Kool-Aid? Good grief. What crap. Some people here apparently prefer hemlock to kool-aid and that doesn't make them superior. It has been ever so. Back in the Webb/Vlade days, there were always negative people, too. Amazingly negative. And the Webb vs. Peja stuff was radioactively negative. And Adelman was an absolute lightening rod for hate-spewing before he left.
So excuse those of us, who see the things that are the strengths and weaknesses of this team, aren't partial to the pollyanna kool-aid, but don't want to drink hemlock all the time, either.
So excuse those of us, who see the things that are the strengths and weaknesses of this team, aren't partial to the pollyanna kool-aid, but don't want to drink hemlock all the time, either.
Just so you know. Section 101 sits in section 101, and attends a lot of games since he's a season ticket holder. He's entitled to his opinion, which I don't always agree with, but respect. He loves the team and he loves the players, and if he says he heard these remarks at a game, then I believe him. Don't shoot the messenger just because you don't like the message.
The truth is, Evans does dribble the ball too much, and he does make bad decisions at times. That doesn't mean I don't want him on my team. I'm sure Section 101 agrees with me. It means that perhaps some of us don't like the direction he's going at times, and maybe he needs a course correction. When you give a young ambitious player the keys to the car, he just might go 120 miles an hour with it, and forget that there are other cars on the road. You don't take the car away, but a speed reduction would certainly be in order.
The truth is, Evans does dribble the ball too much, and he does make bad decisions at times. That doesn't mean I don't want him on my team. I'm sure Section 101 agrees with me. It means that perhaps some of us don't like the direction he's going at times, and maybe he needs a course correction. When you give a young ambitious player the keys to the car, he just might go 120 miles an hour with it, and forget that there are other cars on the road. You don't take the car away, but a speed reduction would certainly be in order.
If you had any idea what his seats cost, I don't think you'd question his decision. Were talking about a considerable investment. If anything, he should be given a medal for hanging in there for as long as he has. I find it ironic that people that probably don't have season tickets are criticizing someone that has been forking out the money year after year.
I don't think Bricky has a problem with people being critical of a player, or players. Over the years he may have offered up some criticism a couple of times. Its when the criticism doesn't make any sense, or is to the extreme that he's responding to. To criticize Tryeke for over dribbling or making a bad decision is one thing. Or to criticize Cousins for making silly fouls every game. But to imply that there's a power struggle going on Between Tyreke and Cousins for the leadership of the team is probably a bit of a reach. At least on the concious level of each player.
In my opinion, its simply a disagreement on the style of basketball the team is playing. I sincerely doubt its Cousins standing up and saying follow me. Personally I don't think Evans really wants anything to do with being the so called leader of the team. I think he just wants to play basketball, and he's used to playing one way. We can argue over who's right and who's wrong. But I think thats the extent of it.
In my opinion, its simply a disagreement on the style of basketball the team is playing. I sincerely doubt its Cousins standing up and saying follow me. Personally I don't think Evans really wants anything to do with being the so called leader of the team. I think he just wants to play basketball, and he's used to playing one way. We can argue over who's right and who's wrong. But I think thats the extent of it.
And just what signs do you see that this team is at a crossroads? They've just got their engine started. Any such crossroad is way out of sight. This team is looking good and getting better. Do you think they're about ready to fall apart? I think that view is completely out of reason. Come on , we'll start 5 guys tonight and let's see what happens. This is clearly the wrong time to be depressed about the Kings.