Omri frustrated by offence and ball not moving.

#31
Um, that is rather blatantly false.

The great majority of stars started out as floaters, in particular probably becuase their unique skillsets made them possibilities at multiple spots. Wade played some PG and soem SG. Kobe some SF and soem SG. KG was actually a small forward his firsr 4-5 years before shifting. Washington tried Webb at SF. Brkley was a SF who became a PF etc. Its very common. Iverson of course was a combo point, as was Arenas. And really as has been mentioend before, the PGs who play next to the Jordans, Wades and Kobes fo the world are so irrelevant that those guys are ruinning the offense anyway, regardless of what you call them.
There's a difference between having a guy playing in different positions because he can contribute at those positions in addition to his natural one, and playing a guy in multiple positions because he doesn't have the necessary skillset to excell in one. Regardless of experimentation, it is clear that:

Jordan = SG
Kobe = SG
Wade = SG
Webber = PF
Barkley = PF
Arenas = PG
Iverson = PG
Tyreke = ?

Giving Tyreke a free pass to not learn how to play a defined position is not doing him any favors, and that is the main reason, imo, that PW is such a miserable failure on this team. If sometime down the line it is decided that it's better for him to switch position, that's fine, but that's not an excuse to not learn any position. Right now, Tyreke seems more suited to excell as a ball-dominant SG, and that's the position and skillset he should be focusing on learning, and that doesn't mean just the fancy, penetrate-through-five-defenders stuff. It means learning all the role-player stuff as well. Kobe is great because every summer he works on a new fundamental skill, and by now he has pretty much mastered them all. Tyreke, at this point, doesn't seem to be interested in putting in the work to do that. He has this I-am-what-I-am attitude, which you might expect from a 21-year-old who has been given a franchise so early in his career. What is inexcusable is that Westphal endorses it, or at least tolerates it.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#32
Sorry Guys, Casspi is damn right. Look how many fastbreaks this team has during each game (and season), Almost nothing! That is because the ball isn't pushed to the players in the sidelines. This is why they can't pass it to trailer players. This is BASIC! my son learned how to make fastbreaks in his since 1st year (when he was 7). I am sure that Kings are the last group in making fastbreaks in NBA. And pls don't call "fastbreak" to offence when 2 players of the kings stand free, near the basket, and Evans insists on running coast to caost with the ball and put it PERSONALLY with his own hands... The same for Beno Udrich.
I'm going to agree with you in part. I remember in the last game the Kings stole the ball and Tyreke was leading the break. He had Beno wide open under the basket and could have hit him with a bounce pass for an easy basket. Instead he tryed to finish the play himself over a defender and missed the basket. So the question is, does Evans just want all the glory for himself, or is it that he just doesn't trust his teammates to complete the play? I personally think its the latter, but whichever it is, he's wrong. Team play is all about trust and being unselfish. Its also about keeping everyone involved. If the ball doesn't move, and the plays don't involve everyone on the floor, then pretty soon your going to see players just standing around. It may not be right, but if you busting your butt moving without the ball, or fighting for post position and you never get rewarded by getting the ball, you'll just stop trying after a while.

When a 280 pound center is fighting for position with another 280 center, its like sumo wrestling going on. It takes a lot of strength and energy. I had one of those guys tell me that when he battles for position and some little 180 guard looks at him and passes the ball to another 200 guard, it pisses him off. And then at the other end of the floor that little 180 pound guard expects the 280 pound center to have his back when he can't guard his man.
 
#33
I agree about the lack of ball-movement, at least to close out games. That being said, he should probably keep his mouth shut about those kinds of things and let's not forget Omri is painting the kettle black. He gets tunnel-vision and goes long stretches without passing too.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#34
i was at the game against the rockets.. the ball didn't move much. i was watching casspi and he basically camped at the 3pt line waiting for the ball to be thrown to him after the penetrators could not do anything.
Well that is part of spreading the floor in order to try and open up the middle. You'll notice that Cisco does a lot of the same things. When you driving to the basket you need an outlet somewhere on the court. So I think Casspi was doing what he was suspossed to be doing. At least in that instance.
 
#35
Well that is part of spreading the floor in order to try and open up the middle. You'll notice that Cisco does a lot of the same things. When you driving to the basket you need an outlet somewhere on the court. So I think Casspi was doing what he was suspossed to be doing. At least in that instance.
Yeah to a degree we want that. Especially with Francisco, which I believe Casspi mentioned.
 
#36
I agree about the lack of ball-movement, at least to close out games. That being said, he should probably keep his mouth shut about those kinds of things and let's not forget Omri is painting the kettle black. He gets tunnel-vision and goes long stretches without passing too.
Again, this has already been pointed out in this thread, but people should be paying attention more. What you are saying was true to some extent in his rookie year, but this season Omri is one of the last players you can blame for the lack of ball movement.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#37
This isn't necessarily reelvant to this thread, but here's a question for all of you. Who are the players on the Kings that can come off a screen, stop, pop, and hit that shot consistently. As an image, think Mike Bibby when he was on the Kings. Just name how may players the Kings have that can do that.
 
#38
This isn't necessarily reelvant to this thread, but here's a question for all of you. Who are the players on the Kings that can come off a screen, stop, pop, and hit that shot consistently. As an image, think Mike Bibby when he was on the Kings. Just name how may players the Kings have that can do that.
Francisco Garcia is THE only one i can think of...maybe Beno occassionally.
 
#39
TherArenas = PG
Iverson = PG
Tyreke = ?
Those 2 are bad examples of having 'defined' positions. I think those 2 are probably the biggest examples as to why Reke doesn't need a defined position right now.

Iverson came in the league as a PG, but was clearly a 2 guard who just wants to score and will pass only when he's pounded the hell out of the rock. He's actually a case as to where if you can do one thing good enough you don't have to learn anything else. He was a chucker with great heart in his prime, but nothing close to a 'PG'. Arenas I think fits the same mold, but atleast says he wants to learn how to be a PG.

In order to play PG in the NBA I believe either you know it or you don't, but that doesn't mean that Reke can't play both positions when need be. The NBA is becoming too hybrid to think that these newer players needs designated tags to what position they can play. Reke is a guard who can get to the rim whenever he wants(when healthy), while also making plays for others off his penetration. I also believe he wil develop the tools needed to become great in the NBA. He will develop that Jumper, he will work on his post game and will learn to play off the ball. But in reply to your post earlier about him learning all of this next to a 'Great' ball dominant PG that could't be further from the truth.
 
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#40
Again, this has already been pointed out in this thread, but people should be paying attention more. What you are saying was true to some extent in his rookie year, but this season Omri is one of the last players you can blame for the lack of ball movement.
I don't know man. Don't get me wrong seeing his play in summer league/preseason vs now yeah he's passing a bit more but for him to be the one calling out other players for being greedy seems a bit hypocritical to me.
 
#41
This isn't necessarily reelvant to this thread, but here's a question for all of you. Who are the players on the Kings that can come off a screen, stop, pop, and hit that shot consistently. As an image, think Mike Bibby when he was on the Kings. Just name how may players the Kings have that can do that.
Cisco's the only one I can think of, I think if Omri could make that a staple of his game he wouldn't be so frustred within the offense as well.
 
#43
So it's the blame of the coach or the PG? If for example, Greg Popovich would have coached this team, anyone here thinks that Tyreke and Benu, as the main point guards of the team, would still have played the same? or they would involve the other players of the team more instead of settling for the penetration/jumper respectively?
I like Westphal as a person, he's a really nice guy, but he really needs to start doing his job, and that is to actually coach.

I agree about the lack of ball-movement, at least to close out games. That being said, he should probably keep his mouth shut about those kinds of things and let's not forget Omri is painting the kettle black. He gets tunnel-vision and goes long stretches without passing too.
That's wrong, it was true last season, especially at the second half, but this season it clearly shows he tries to move the ball much more, sometimes even too much, don't take my word for it, just watch the games and pay more attention to when he shoots and when he decides to pass.
 
#44
This isn't necessarily reelvant to this thread, but here's a question for all of you. Who are the players on the Kings that can come off a screen, stop, pop, and hit that shot consistently. As an image, think Mike Bibby when he was on the Kings. Just name how may players the Kings have that can do that.
The advantage of having a young team is that the players are, in a way, almost a blank canvas. They have the ability to learn and add new elements to their game much more than vets do. So, I think we shouldn't look at our players in terms of "what they can do now" but more in terms of "which players are most likely to be able to add that element on their game". The problem is that Westphal doesn't seem to think so, and seems to take the "they are what they are" approach, which is horrible for a young team, in my opinion.
 
#45
That's wrong, it was true last season, especially at the second half, but this season it clearly shows he tries to move the ball much more, sometimes even too much, don't take my word for it, just watch the games and pay more attention to when he shoots and when he decides to pass.
This.
I pay attention to this sort of thing. There has been at least one instance in every game he's played in where I want to scream at Omri to SHOOT. He'll be open or nearly open, and instead he passes to someone else. If anything, he doesn't shoot enough this year. I don't know if it's a confidence issue, that he thinks his shot is less consistent than Cisco/Luther/Donte's, or if he's just trying to move the ball and spread the offense. I'm not in his head. But that's what I see - he almost passes too much.
 
#46
That's wrong, it was true last season, especially at the second half, but this season it clearly shows he tries to move the ball much more, sometimes even too much, don't take my word for it, just watch the games and pay more attention to when he shoots and when he decides to pass.
Like I said, his shot selection is improving but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
#47
Well that is part of spreading the floor in order to try and open up the middle. You'll notice that Cisco does a lot of the same things. When you driving to the basket you need an outlet somewhere on the court. So I think Casspi was doing what he was suspossed to be doing. At least in that instance.

i agree with you. i just don't think there are alot of plays being run. it's quite boring to see ppl just stand around and wait for one person to try to break down the defense then kick out. i don't know if its the team that doesn't run them or the playbook is 1 page long. *spread the floor, drive and kick or layup.*
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#48
I actually think the bigger thing for us going forward is this: how many of our guys are comfortable, truly comfortable just catching the ball and shooting it, wihtout dribbles, fakes, hesitations or antyhgin else. Catch and shoot. Because that's what the base skill of 10 of the 12 players on this roster is probably going to end up looking like once Cosuins and Reke are fully on line. You don't see roleplayers on the Spurs catching the ball and pouling it down so they can dribble around some to get comfotable before shooting. When great playeers get you those open looks, its got to be catch and shoot. And not everybody can do that. Its a far more important version of shooting for us than being able to pull up, or work off screens or any of that stuff.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#49
The idea that Tyreke doesn't move the ball while our other players do is such an unbelievable misconception that it needs to be squashed, and right now.

For the season, Tyreke's Usage rate is 26.3%, meaning he shoots or turns the ball over on just over 1/4 of the possessions when he's in the game. Despite that, he gets an assist on 25.2% of his teammates baskets while he's in - this AST%/USG% ratio of 0.96 is pretty PG-ish, and it's a decent relative measure of how often somebody passes rather than shoots. Only Jeter (1.96), Beno (1.32) and Head (1.19) have a higher AST%/USG% ratio on the Kings. And not surprisingly, these are all guys being played as PGs. Greene, Garcia and Casspi? Not so much - Garcia is the highest of the three (0.51) and Greene comes in behind him (0.46). Casspi brings up the rear for our wing players at 0.30, lower than centers Dalembert (0.48) and Cousins (0.35) and PF/C Thompson (0.36). Only black hole Landry (0.18) and offensive-rebound-mop-up-specialist Darnell Jackson (0.16) have lower ratios for the Kings.

This isn't to cast an aspersion on Casspi. I like the guy. He's a great shooter when he's on and he's a hell of a hustle guy, and seems to try hard on defense even if he doesn't really get it done yet. Hopefully that D will come with time. But the suggestion that Evans shoulders more blame in the passing game than Casspi is laughable. The numbers show this.
No doubt your stats are correct. But they miss the point: the end of the game performance. It's the last half of the 4th quarter that is killing this team. And that's when Tyreke is hoisting 3 pointers when he's guarded and not running the offense. If anything your stats raise an obvious question: If Tyreke is so good on average with his assists/turnovers, then why at the end of the game is he so lousy? If you've got stats for that, I'd really like to see them.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#50
Message to Omri. Instead of talking to the reporter, how 'bout having a man-to-man with Tyreke. No doubt, with your Israeli military training, you could be very persuasive...
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#51
I actually think the bigger thing for us going forward is this: how many of our guys are comfortable, truly comfortable just catching the ball and shooting it, wihtout dribbles, fakes, hesitations or antyhgin else. Catch and shoot. Because that's what the base skill of 10 of the 12 players on this roster is probably going to end up looking like once Cosuins and Reke are fully on line. You don't see roleplayers on the Spurs catching the ball and pouling it down so they can dribble around some to get comfotable before shooting. When great playeers get you those open looks, its got to be catch and shoot. And not everybody can do that. Its a far more important version of shooting for us than being able to pull up, or work off screens or any of that stuff.
I can only think of Omri, Beno, Cisco, and, to a degree, Donte as players who are comfortable with the catch and shoot.
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#53
Message to Omri. Instead of talking to the reporter, how 'bout having a man-to-man with Tyreke. No doubt, with your Israeli military training, you could be very persuasive...
You know thats not a bad point, and it extends beyond Omri. When Tyreke starts breaking off the offense and goes one on one, and starts killing the ball movement, the guys need to start calling him on it. During the game.

If you're wide open and Tyreke doesn't pass, let him know. Whether it's advancing the ball on a fastbreak, guys open off Tyrekes penetration, or simply swinging the ball. Say something! It's not just the coaches who need to hold Tyreke accountable, but the 4 other guys on the court as well, which I rarely see.

That goes for Beno and Landry as well.
 
#54
You know thats not a bad point, and it extends beyond Omri. When Tyreke starts breaking off the offense and goes one on one, and starts killing the ball movement, the guys need to start calling him on it. During the game.

If you're wide open and Tyreke doesn't pass, let him know. Whether it's advancing the ball on a fastbreak, guys open off Tyrekes penetration, or simply swinging the ball. Say something! It's not just the coaches who need to hold Tyreke accountable, but the 4 other guys on the court as well, which I rarely see.

That goes for Beno and Landry as well.
The other 4 guys need to know that the coach has their back when they do that. Obviously, that's not the case.
 
#57
Omri frustrated by offence and ball not moving.

Balls and players not moving regardless of Omri's frustration. I glad he noticed it because he is part of it.
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#58
No doubt your stats are correct. But they miss the point: the end of the game performance. It's the last half of the 4th quarter that is killing this team. And that's when Tyreke is hoisting 3 pointers when he's guarded and not running the offense. If anything your stats raise an obvious question: If Tyreke is so good on average with his assists/turnovers, then why at the end of the game is he so lousy? If you've got stats for that, I'd really like to see them.
I don't have anything similar to the AST%/USG% stats broken down by quarter. www.82games.com has a "clutch" breakdown, wherein Tyreke does terribly, though. I don't think that's anything we didn't know by watching the games.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#59
Cisco's the only one I can think of, I think if Omri could make that a staple of his game he wouldn't be so frustred within the offense as well.
The reason I brought it up, is because at the end of games when you really need a good shot to win the game, or even in the last couple of minutes when everything is going south and you need a score to stop the bleeding, one of the easiest ways to get a player open is by running a screen or even a double screen for him. Just watch Kobe at the end of games, or any good team. There aren't many teams that go into a 1 - 4 fromation. Only teams that have players like LeBron etc. do that. The Lakers used to do it, but now do more conventional plays. Unfortunately, Evans is not very good coming off screens and shooting the ball. At least right now. Actually Evans idea of using a screen consists of only creating some space for himself somewhere, and as a result he doesn't even use the screen properly, or he uses it before its properly set up. Not a condemnation, its just more that he has to learn.

Personally I think Beno is the best at using screens, and Cisco comes in second. Problem is they don't run many screens for Cisco. There's only a couple of alternatives to not using screens. Ball movement to break down the defense until you get a spot up shooter open. Or someone that can break down the defense off the dribble. Tryeke is the only plaer on the team that can do that with any consistency. Beno is probably the next best. This is just my opinon as far as Beno is concerned, and I'm not his agent, but when he comes in first in one catagory and second in another, that may not be a good thing, it you don't consider him an NBA caliber starter.

I think what we have here are a lot of players with singularly decent, to in some cases, very good special talents. Except that they don't all fit together very well at times. In some cases, what you gain on one end is nullified by what the player does on the other end. What we don't have are a bunch of players that are very good at both ends of the floor. So your giving up something to gain something in almost every instance. There are exceptions. Some in the present, and some that you cand see for the future. Some almost a sure thing, and some with a lot more hope than sureity attached. I put Evans and Cousins into the almost sure thing catagory. I have little doubt both will be good to great players in the future. Maybe one will even be a so called superstar. I put Greene and Casspi, with Whiteside included into the hope catagory. I put Thompson somewhere in between. He's closer to a finished product in the sense that he does play both ends of the floor, and for the most part is a positive on both ends. He sill has a lot of room for improvement, but even is he doesn't improve that much more and just becomes more consistent, he's a fine addition to the team.

Beno, god bless him, really trys hard on defense. He simply doesn't have the athleticism or skill to pull it off. Offensively, he's been a bright spot for the most part. He's able to do a little bit of everything. But he hurts us at times on the other end of the floor. Dalembert is the exact opposite. Great on the defensive side of the floor, but a liability on the offensive side of the floor. Landry is another player thats not complete. Usually a good offensive player, but a terrible rebounder for a PF, and a defensive libility when matched up against the bigger PF's in the league.

My point is that the Kings have too many one deminsional players on their team. Of the starters only Cousins and Evans, and perhaps Thompson appear to be players capable of excelling on both ends of the floor. Greene has shown flashes, but so far is inconsistent. And Beno is Beno, and he's never going to be a good defender. Put Beno on the floor with four players that are good to decent defenders, and then you can probably compensate for him. Off the bench the only player close to being a complete player, although a limited one talent wise, is Cisco. Maybe down the road with enough playing time, Jeter. I suspose you could throw Jackson in there, but who even knows if he'll be here next year. Casspi, like Greene is inconsistent.

So we need either Greene or Casspi, or both, to develop into more well rounded players, or we need to go out and find some. Either through the draft or trade or freeagency. Both Casspi and Greene need to work on their ballhandling and passing skills. This team needs players that know how to pass the ball. I watched the Jazz play a few nights ago and its amazing to watch a good team play. There were times when the ball never touched the floor. I always said that if I look at the box score and I see a team has over 20 assists and fewer than 12 turnovers, and they out rebounded the other team, 95% of the time, that team won the game. I believe the Kings are around 27th in the league in assists, and at the opposite end on the turnover chart. Thats the main reason their not winning games. If they were to get their assist totals up and the turnover totals down, it wouldn't come down to the 4th quarter. By and large our rebounding is fine. It was down the other night, but that shows the difference when Thompson isn't on the floor with Cousins. The two of them work the boards very well together.

This isn't meant to be a knock on Jackson, but twice in the first quarter, he was blocking out for a rebound, but he was blocking out Cousins. Kind of funny actually..
 
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#60
I can only think of Omri, Beno, Cisco, and, to a degree, Donte as players who are comfortable with the catch and shoot.

JT can do it as well on a pick and pop.

That is four to five guys, which is plenty. Head will do it at times. The problem is the passes out are hardly ever on time or in the flow. The lack of movement before the pass gives the shots a sort of stagnation that seems to lower percentages as well. Not only have defenses collapsed in the middle, but the passes that do come out are so late that its obvious enough to a competent defense for them to already be ready to rotate out and get on the shooters. Right now the kick outs are bailout passes when they need to be anticipatory passes, which means the pass has to come knowing the defense is about to collapse instead of waiting beyond the point of collapse.