Three big questions - post convergence

#1
I see three big ticket questions coming up. I have no guess what the correct answers are, so I’m just issue spotting.


At this point, one thing is becoming abundantly clear – for the foreseeable future, there isn’t going to be a new NBA arena here or one of the alternative cities – Seattle, San Jose, Anaheim, Kansas City (they already have a newish one), and despite all the talk, you can probably put Vegas on that list as well. Plus, Vegas has the gambling issue, so it’s unclear whether they are even on a list. (I’m not looking to start the – pros/cons debate over these cities. I merely point this out because every time Seattle comes up, somebody will point out, “Well, Settle isn’t getting a new arena.” Which is true, but that’s also the case in San Jose, Anaheim, and SACRAMENTO.) Accordingly, I believe the “no new facility” argument to be a red herring when comparing other cities. Here, they own the facility, but that comes along with all of the maintenance on a facility on the end of its economic life. At some point, it’s like dumping a ton of cash into a clunker car. Plus, the other acts aren’t nearly as profitable as they were pre-2008. On the other hand, the Maloofs will be renters in all of the new facilities. The relocation fee is a factor, but there is also a huge bump in merchandise sales when you move to a new city, better media rights, bigger markets, ect. The loan on the team is a sunk cost. But the city is probably foolish enough to take Arco off their hands for 70 million (suckers). Thus, relocation might be the best way the Maloofs to clear some debt. Lots of moving parts. Many of these can and will be debated, but these factors aren’t going to change a ton as we go forward. At this point, the alternatives are pretty clearly defined. Which leads us to the three issues. This is what matters, and I don’t think any of us “know” the answers here.


1. Among those cities, where can the Kings make the most money?


I’m sure they’ve considered this issue before, but there was always a caveat. With a new arena, Sacramento topped the list. Plus, they would generally prefer to stay. Thus, they’ve held out hope for the best alternative to materialize. But the odds of that happening now seem remote. Accordingly, I think the analysis is about to change, or at least will at some point in the near future. Sacramento will be assessed under the assumption that a new building isn’t coming.


With 10 years of failed plans and nothing viable on the table, the Kings have to seriously consider – assuming a new arena isn’t coming to Sacramento – where the business should be located for both the short term (2-3 years) and mid-term (8-10). Normally, I don’t think a team would look short and near, but with the Maloofs’ cash flow and debt situations, it’s got to be a factor. Just a guess, even with their numerous shortcomings, it seems logical that it would be more profitable – even after relocation costs - to play in San Jose, Seattle, or Anaheim.


2. If you are moving, how does the lockout affect your timing?


So let’s assume for the sake of argument the team concludes that Anaheim is the way to go. We know there is almost certainly going to be a lockout and it is expected to last longer than 1999, when the NBA barely fit in a 50 game season. At this point, there is a real risk all of next season will be lost. If you’ve made up your mind to move, but you’re pretty sure next season isn’t happening … then you might wait.


Option A. Papers filed March 1, 2011. Play six weeks in the hot seat here. See your walk up ticket sales sharply fall off. Announce relocation to City X. Watch the excited new fans become less excited during a lockout.


Option B. Scoop up the last of the dollars in Sacramento through April. Next season might be scuttled in mid-January 2012 as negotiations drag on. File papers in February. And launch in new city – post lockout – with the team in a great position to completely remake the roster and excite town X with a playoff squad.


I know what I would pick. For us, this doesn’t really matter. At best, we get 82-66 homes games instead of 41. Here it’s a matter of when, not if. Something to consider if the team doesn’t file paper on March 1, 2011. That “move” doesn’t necessarily mean this isn’t the last season in Sacramento.


3. Does the $350 million dollar loan payment on the Palms on March 1, 2011 render all of this moot?


Maybe they don’t want to move. Maybe they would rather relocate to Anaheim, but they want to wait until after the lockout. However, it’s all moot if the owners can’t hold onto the team. This is the part of the conversation where people start throwing around arguments like – they’ve said don’t want to sell AND who cares, they might have to. Nobody knows enough to be sure, but March 1, 2011 looms large. This could be the point where unforeseen things happen like the team is sold to Larry Ellison, and he decides whether to risk aliening San Jose with the lockout or potentially playing a lame duck season in Sacramento.


It’s a complete guess, but I think the convergence plan helped solve this issue for the Maloofs. It called for the Maloofs to “donate” the Natomas land, and pay $300 million in rent, and still come out ahead. My hunch has always been that the team was going to: (1) “donate” the Natomas land; (2) have a hold / get access to some financing – either the developers’ or some aspect of the project, which would allow them to get through this rough patch; and (3) get enough of a cut on the backed to get some return on the land. Between their equity in the Kings and the future profits from a finalized convergence plan, the Maloofs should have been able to solve/extend the Palms debt issue. The NBA knows the Kings’ numbers, and they quickly deemed the plan with a huge financing component the plan that needed to happen before the vote happened. This is a guess, but a logical explanation on a couple of fronts.


Thus, it’s very possible the Maloofs plan to fix the Palms also went up in flames on 9/24/10. Even assuming that Taylor/Kamilos can get something up and running again, they will be hard pressed to have it finalized by March 1, 2011 The Maloofs delayed the Palms balloon payment by breaking open the beer piggy bank. Whether the convergence plan is dead or delayed, the opportunity to address the issue without choosing between the Palms and Kings may have passed on Friday.

We just don’t know. But at this point, I’d say these three questions that control if and when they move.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#3
I see three big ticket questions coming up. I have no guess what the correct answers are, so I’m just issue spotting.


At this point, one thing is becoming abundantly clear – for the foreseeable future, there isn’t going to be a new NBA arena here or one of the alternative cities – Seattle, San Jose, Anaheim, Kansas City (they already have a newish one), and despite all the talk, you can probably put Vegas on that list as well. Plus, Vegas has the gambling issue, so it’s unclear whether they are even on a list. (I’m not looking to start the – pros/cons debate over these cities. I merely point this out because every time Seattle comes up, somebody will point out, “Well, Settle isn’t getting a new arena.” Which is true, but that’s also the case in San Jose, Anaheim, and SACRAMENTO.) Accordingly, I believe the “no new facility” argument to be a red herring when comparing other cities. Here, they own the facility, but that comes along with all of the maintenance on a facility on the end of its economic life. At some point, it’s like dumping a ton of cash into a clunker car. Plus, the other acts aren’t nearly as profitable as they were pre-2008. On the other hand, the Maloofs will be renters in all of the new facilities. The relocation fee is a factor, but there is also a huge bump in merchandise sales when you move to a new city, better media rights, bigger markets, ect. The loan on the team is a sunk cost. But the city is probably foolish enough to take Arco off their hands for 70 million (suckers). Thus, relocation might be the best way the Maloofs to clear some debt. Lots of moving parts. Many of these can and will be debated, but these factors aren’t going to change a ton as we go forward. At this point, the alternatives are pretty clearly defined. Which leads us to the three issues. This is what matters, and I don’t think any of us “know” the answers here.


1. Among those cities, where can the Kings make the most money?


I’m sure they’ve considered this issue before, but there was always a caveat. With a new arena, Sacramento topped the list. Plus, they would generally prefer to stay. Thus, they’ve held out hope for the best alternative to materialize. But the odds of that happening now seem remote. Accordingly, I think the analysis is about to change, or at least will at some point in the near future. Sacramento will be assessed under the assumption that a new building isn’t coming.


With 10 years of failed plans and nothing viable on the table, the Kings have to seriously consider – assuming a new arena isn’t coming to Sacramento – where the business should be located for both the short term (2-3 years) and mid-term (8-10). Normally, I don’t think a team would look short and near, but with the Maloofs’ cash flow and debt situations, it’s got to be a factor. Just a guess, even with their numerous shortcomings, it seems logical that it would be more profitable – even after relocation costs - to play in San Jose, Seattle, or Anaheim.


2. If you are moving, how does the lockout affect your timing?


So let’s assume for the sake of argument the team concludes that Anaheim is the way to go. We know there is almost certainly going to be a lockout and it is expected to last longer than 1999, when the NBA barely fit in a 50 game season. At this point, there is a real risk all of next season will be lost. If you’ve made up your mind to move, but you’re pretty sure next season isn’t happening … then you might wait.


Option A. Papers filed March 1, 2011. Play six weeks in the hot seat here. See your walk up ticket sales sharply fall off. Announce relocation to City X. Watch the excited new fans become less excited during a lockout.


Option B. Scoop up the last of the dollars in Sacramento through April. Next season might be scuttled in mid-January 2012 as negotiations drag on. File papers in February. And launch in new city – post lockout – with the team in a great position to completely remake the roster and excite town X with a playoff squad.


I know what I would pick. For us, this doesn’t really matter. At best, we get 82-66 homes games instead of 41. Here it’s a matter of when, not if. Something to consider if the team doesn’t file paper on March 1, 2011. That “move” doesn’t necessarily mean this isn’t the last season in Sacramento.


3. Does the $350 million dollar loan payment on the Palms on March 1, 2011 render all of this moot?


Maybe they don’t want to move. Maybe they would rather relocate to Anaheim, but they want to wait until after the lockout. However, it’s all moot if the owners can’t hold onto the team. This is the part of the conversation where people start throwing around arguments like – they’ve said don’t want to sell AND who cares, they might have to. Nobody knows enough to be sure, but March 1, 2011 looms large. This could be the point where unforeseen things happen like the team is sold to Larry Ellison, and he decides whether to risk aliening San Jose with the lockout or potentially playing a lame duck season in Sacramento.


It’s a complete guess, but I think the convergence plan helped solve this issue for the Maloofs. It called for the Maloofs to “donate” the Natomas land, and pay $300 million in rent, and still come out ahead. My hunch has always been that the team was going to: (1) “donate” the Natomas land; (2) have a hold / get access to some financing – either the developers’ or some aspect of the project, which would allow them to get through this rough patch; and (3) get enough of a cut on the backed to get some return on the land. Between their equity in the Kings and the future profits from a finalized convergence plan, the Maloofs should have been able to solve/extend the Palms debt issue. The NBA knows the Kings’ numbers, and they quickly deemed the plan with a huge financing component the plan that needed to happen before the vote happened. This is a guess, but a logical explanation on a couple of fronts.


Thus, it’s very possible the Maloofs plan to fix the Palms also went up in flames on 9/24/10. Even assuming that Taylor/Kamilos can get something up and running again, they will be hard pressed to have it finalized by March 1, 2011 The Maloofs delayed the Palms balloon payment by breaking open the beer piggy bank. Whether the convergence plan is dead or delayed, the opportunity to address the issue without choosing between the Palms and Kings may have passed on Friday.

We just don’t know. But at this point, I’d say these three questions that control if and when they move.
Your a lot smarter than I'am when it comes to all the legalize of these plans. So here's a question for you. At the moment it looks as though there's definitely going to be a lockout. Perhaps, as you said, for the whole year. Wouldn't it be logical to pass on filing papers March 1st 2011, and wait till March 1st 2012. You keep your fans in the seats till the end of the season, and you also give Taylor/Kamilos more time to come up with something viable. And I mean viable and not a hope and a prayer. It would also give the Maloof's time to find the best relocation spot, if Taylor/Kamilos come up with nothing.

There's also the possibility that the economy will turn around, and thereby change some of the parameters. I was also curious whether the team could put an additional charge on each ticket sold, that could go toward financing a new arena. The charge could pro-rated according to the cost of the seat. The money could be put in a trust overseen by a third independant party. I know that it would take a pretty hefty charge to make enough money to pay for an arena, and it might take a few years, but I suspect that most fans wouldn't mind paying it if they knew it was going toward a new arena. Not sure if its legal or not.

Its hard for me to believe that a city like Sacramento can't lift a finger to help the team stay. Its too bad we don't have a russian billionaire to build us a new arena.
 
#4
Well, Anaheim and San Jose not having a new arena in the foreseeable future is irrelevant. They wouldn't even be in the equation if not for the presence of their current buildings. Those buildings, unlike Arco, were done right and therefore have a very long shelf life. Yeah, HP Pavillion will need $40 million worth of touching up but city council has already agreed to fund it so that's a non issue.

KC would make the most sense but AEG seems to be doing fine without a sports franchise. The building is profitable so AEG would demand an AEG friendly lease which the Maloofs would most likely balk at. Throw in the fact that AEG owns a portion of the Lakers and runs Staples Center and the Maloofs have no interest in them. Add the distance from Vegas and they are a no go.

It all comes down to whether Vegas gets their act together. Stern has already said he won't block a move because of gambling issues and that he'll leave it up to the B of G. The problem then becomes whether or not they can get an arena and that's iffy at best.

If Seattle comes through at the last second, they are in the driver's seat but that isn't happening.

IMO, it comes down to Anaheim and San Jose. The Maloofs would prefer Anaheim but Stern doesn't want 3 teams in the region. He'd prefer the bay area become a 2 team region over the LA area being 3 team. Plus, San Jose is making a strong push for any NBA team. The $40 million is an obvious first step and Anaheim is now at the point where they want to get the Duck's finances straight. In the past, Honda Center ownership has offered sweetheart leases including free rent to the Clippers but now, Samueli, the Duck's owner, isn't in position to do that. He has gone from being gung ho about the NBA to the point of bringing in a team only if it can help his bottom line. That's according to an LA Times story I read last week.

OTOH, the Maloofs still would prefer to play there and they don't come off as the types that would fit in well in San Jose. Lots of competition for the sports dollar on the horizon with the A's possible move and Niner stadium next door in Santa Clara. At this point, I'm calling it a toss up.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#5
Well, Anaheim and San Jose not having a new arena in the foreseeable future is irrelevant. They wouldn't even be in the equation if not for the presence of their current buildings. Those buildings, unlike Arco, were done right and therefore have a very long shelf life. Yeah, HP Pavillion will need $40 million worth of touching up but city council has already agreed to fund it so that's a non issue.

KC would make the most sense but AEG seems to be doing fine without a sports franchise. The building is profitable so AEG would demand an AEG friendly lease which the Maloofs would most likely balk at. Throw in the fact that AEG owns a portion of the Lakers and runs Staples Center and the Maloofs have no interest in them. Add the distance from Vegas and they are a no go.

It all comes down to whether Vegas gets their act together. Stern has already said he won't block a move because of gambling issues and that he'll leave it up to the B of G. The problem then becomes whether or not they can get an arena and that's iffy at best.

If Seattle comes through at the last second, they are in the driver's seat but that isn't happening.

IMO, it comes down to Anaheim and San Jose. The Maloofs would prefer Anaheim but Stern doesn't want 3 teams in the region. He'd prefer the bay area become a 2 team region over the LA area being 3 team. Plus, San Jose is making a strong push for any NBA team. The $40 million is an obvious first step and Anaheim is now at the point where they want to get the Duck's finances straight. In the past, Honda Center ownership has offered sweetheart leases including free rent to the Clippers but now, Samueli, the Duck's owner, isn't in position to do that. He has gone from being gung ho about the NBA to the point of bringing in a team only if it can help his bottom line. That's according to an LA Times story I read last week.

OTOH, the Maloofs still would prefer to play there and they don't come off as the types that would fit in well in San Jose. Lots of competition for the sports dollar on the horizon with the A's possible move and Niner stadium next door in Santa Clara. At this point, I'm calling it a toss up.
How about Ensenada? The labor is cheap, and you wouldn't have all those safety regulations to mess with. Suddenly the NBA would be international. Its a win/win for everyone. Especially me!
 
#6
How about Ensenada? The labor is cheap, and you wouldn't have all those safety regulations to mess with. Suddenly the NBA would be international. Its a win/win for everyone. Especially me!
In all honesty, my personal favorite is right up the road from Ensenada. San Diego. But if we think it's tough getting an arena done in Sacramento, imagine how tough it is in SD. Heck, they have to get the football stadium done first.
 
#7
If its not Sacramento, I don't care where they go, although I'd especially hate Southern CA, the Bay Area or Vegas. Personally, I like KC. We took the Kings from KC, so maybe it would be karma and they have a gorgeous, practically brand new arena. Of course, the Kings would share the place with professional baseball and football.The city helped build all three venues. Sacramento can't help build even one. :rolleyes:
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#8
If its not Sacramento, I don't care where they go, although I'd especially hate Southern CA, the Bay Area or Vegas. Personally, I like KC. We took the Kings from KC, so maybe it would be karma and they have a gorgeous, practically brand new arena. Of course, the Kings would share the place with professional baseball and football.The city helped build all three venues. Sacramento can't help build even one. :rolleyes:
I suspose it would be poetic justice for the Kings to go back to KC. But selfishly, I'd love San Diego. I'm sure Cruzdude would too. Its odd that KC has two other major league venues, and would have three with the Kings returning. The strange part is that its not all that much bigger than Sacramento. Its even similar to Sacramento in that it has a river running through it with the equivilant of West Sacramento on the other side in Kansas City, Kansas. It used to be mostly stockyards on that side. I haven't been there in a while so maybe its changed. But in truth, KC was a cowtown. They have some great steakhouses there.
 
#9
I suspose it would be poetic justice for the Kings to go back to KC. But selfishly, I'd love San Diego. I'm sure Cruzdude would too. Its odd that KC has two other major league venues, and would have three with the Kings returning. The strange part is that its not all that much bigger than Sacramento. Its even similar to Sacramento in that it has a river running through it with the equivilant of West Sacramento on the other side in Kansas City, Kansas. It used to be mostly stockyards on that side. I haven't been there in a while so maybe its changed. But in truth, KC was a cowtown. They have some great steakhouses there.
I'd also selfishly love San Diego but I don't know where they'd put an arena or if people would be all that supportive.
 
#10
Well call me a dreamer, but I'm hoping what has happened in other cities happens again here. More often than not, the imminent threat of losing a team tends to bring out the deals that get done. There are the cases like Seattle where a move happened, but that was after a city had put up two new stadiums and went to a new owner that was all but obvious to move the team. They also were a three major league sport town just like KC. I'm not saying it can't happen, but don't think that this is done deal and the moving vans are backing up to the arena. Sacramento needs the Kings and I think even the Maloofs know their best situation is here if they get their new building.

I've always felt that Kings fans and Sacramentans were too blind to think that their special team would ever leave. That whole best fans in the NBA slogan and that junk. I think there was this overconfident feeling. Well the best thing that could ever happen is for it to start looking like it does now. The Bee and other media needs to start focusing on this situation. And then maybe when the uproar hits the town, the deals will start getting more realisitic and public support comes around. It's not over, but it's late in the 4th quarter and it's crunch time. There will be screaming fans soon enough... who is stepping up to win this?
 
#11
If its not Sacramento, I don't care where they go, although I'd especially hate Southern CA, the Bay Area or Vegas. Personally, I like KC. We took the Kings from KC, so maybe it would be karma and they have a gorgeous, practically brand new arena. Of course, the Kings would share the place with professional baseball and football.The city helped build all three venues. Sacramento can't help build even one. :rolleyes:
I'll still be a fan as long as they're in NorCal. If it's in San Jo so what? It's not San Jose's fault or the Maloof's fault this joke of a city can't get an arena built.
 
#12
I'll still be a fan as long as they're in NorCal. If it's in San Jo so what? It's not San Jose's fault or the Maloof's fault this joke of a city can't get an arena built.
I'm, not much of a fan of the Bay Area. San Jose is a heckuva long way to go, although not impossible, obviously. I'd just be ticked that the Bay Area would have two basketball, teams, the LA area would have two and Sacramento would have none. :(
 
#13
I'm, not much of a fan of the Bay Area. San Jose is a heckuva long way to go, although not impossible, obviously. I'd just be ticked that the Bay Area would have two basketball, teams, the LA area would have two and Sacramento would have none. :(
Agreed. But at least it beats having 3 in the LA area and only 1 in norcal which is what would happen if they go to Anaheim. Because of that, I prefer San Jose although I think it wouldn've been really cool had the league not allowed the Clips to move to LA so easily. Had the same restrictions been in place then that are in place now, we'd have 1 team per metro area in Cali. Clips in SD, Lakers in LA, Warriors in the bay and the Kings in Sac.
 
#14
If its not Sacramento, I don't care where they go, although I'd especially hate Southern CA, the Bay Area or Vegas. Personally, I like KC. We took the Kings from KC, so maybe it would be karma and they have a gorgeous, practically brand new arena. Of course, the Kings would share the place with professional baseball and football.The city helped build all three venues. Sacramento can't help build even one. :rolleyes:
This article doesn't mention the Kings but it does talk about KC and the NBA.

http://newsok.com/nba-notebook/article/3503226