Even if you have personal knowledge, you're still reading tea leaves. Inferences have to be made and conclusions drawn from data gathered by the GMs and their detectives. Some are going to have the right inferences, others aren't. Some may attribute certain behaviors to simple immaturity. Maybe they are right and maybe they aren't. That's why Cousins is going to be very interesting to track in his NBA career. Who will have drawn the correct conclusion?
Monroe over Cousins ISN'T A BASKETBALL DECISION
- Thread starter DoDiGaG0
- Start date
Lets see... a few days before the draft and we are taking rumors as gospel? The only true measurement of how bad Counsins came off in interviews is to watch where he goes this Thursday. Lots of lying and posturing going down right now. If he slips a lot, then yeah it might be true. But if you are Petrie and you want him to slip to you, you let slip that he failed his interview so that NJ and Minny get spooked.
Most of our speculation is harmless basketball talk, but this is completely baseless speculation about the mental health of someone we do not know.
Do I seriously have to explain why it's bad form to toss around baseless suggestions that someone we don't even know has a mental illness? This is how BS rumors start.
Do I seriously have to explain why it's bad form to toss around baseless suggestions that someone we don't even know has a mental illness? This is how BS rumors start.
True, but the Kings saying those things at the time was really taken by people as the Kings trying to divert attention away because they really wanted Rubio. They brought him back to sac days before the draft and had a special media day with him for crying out loud. They helped create a little storm of media attention that had EVERYONE thinking we would take him if available. It worked perfect, and the player Petrie really wanted was still on the board.
I'm sure you can research the Rubio threads and read what people's general reaction was to those Reynolds interviews, who people thought was being a master manipulator by playing down Rubio. Oh... never mind....
I'm sure you can research the Rubio threads and read what people's general reaction was to those Reynolds interviews, who people thought was being a master manipulator by playing down Rubio. Oh... never mind....
It's TDOS. Isn't bandying about speculation 99% of what we do?
With all due respect, I think you are cherry picking her to help your argument. Sure there are some people who are saying he has a mental condition and to those people, your point is spot on. However, there are some of us talking about the red flags being his coachabilty / weight issues. On that topic, the pro Cousins folks are looking at the same tea leaves and speculating that he’ll grow out of it as he gets older and he will play at an appropriate weight. Which is a fine opinion to have, but you folks are guessing too. On those topics, you cannot support your speculation with “your counter argument is just speculation.” It’s no different that 99% of the guess work done here.
While it’s all rumor and innuendo, you should consider this. It’s not a draft smoke screen by other agents and teams. All of these issues were identified by NBA people as early as December and we were reading about them back then. Second, for any draft candidate – it’s a high level of red flags. A level reserved for Beasly, Sheed, Artest, Josh Smith, JR. Smith, ect. While it’s tea leaves, you have to acknowledge it’s a long and big trail of them.
Finally, the argument of – show me a story where somebody says “this guy is a bad person” “or he has a mental defect.” You aren’t going to see that, because even if a writer believed it – he’s not going to get a source to go on record or a publisher to print it. Same on radio. With the impact of libel and slander lawsuits – even if true – you are only going to see the whispers … like with Beasley … and so far, the whispers about him seem to be spot on.
As the two issues, I’m concerned about … here are two recent reports.
"He's not coachable right now and he's not been," ESPN college basketball analyst Jay Bilas said. "He needs a baby-sitter. If you're willing to do that, fine. He could be terrific. He's not a bad kid. He's an immature kid. "If he acts like a professional and treats it like a job, the only person that can stop him is himself."
(Bilas not only covers the college game. He personally worked with Cousins a couple of years ago and said on the Bill Simmons interview that he was pulling for Cousin, but he didn’t like working with himI have no doubt, the pro camp will latch onto the last two sentences and the anti-will grab the first three … and thus the debate spins on)
From The Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100622/SPORTS0102/6220338/1127/DeMarcus-Cousins-is-more-question-than-%20answer#ixzz0rb6vGbQm
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Also, John Schuhmann tweeted that Cousins weighed in a 289 and on the OLT, even Cal said he should play around 270.
With all due respect, I think you are cherry picking her to help your argument. Sure there are some people who are saying he has a mental condition and to those people, your point is spot on. However, there are some of us talking about the red flags being his coachabilty / weight issues. On that topic, the pro Cousins folks are looking at the same tea leaves and speculating that he’ll grow out of it as he gets older and he will play at an appropriate weight. Which is a fine opinion to have, but you folks are guessing too. On those topics, you cannot support your speculation with “your counter argument is just speculation.” It’s no different that 99% of the guess work done here.
While it’s all rumor and innuendo, you should consider this. It’s not a draft smoke screen by other agents and teams. All of these issues were identified by NBA people as early as December and we were reading about them back then. Second, for any draft candidate – it’s a high level of red flags. A level reserved for Beasly, Sheed, Artest, Josh Smith, JR. Smith, ect. While it’s tea leaves, you have to acknowledge it’s a long and big trail of them.
Finally, the argument of – show me a story where somebody says “this guy is a bad person” “or he has a mental defect.” You aren’t going to see that, because even if a writer believed it – he’s not going to get a source to go on record or a publisher to print it. Same on radio. With the impact of libel and slander lawsuits – even if true – you are only going to see the whispers … like with Beasley … and so far, the whispers about him seem to be spot on.
As the two issues, I’m concerned about … here are two recent reports.
"He's not coachable right now and he's not been," ESPN college basketball analyst Jay Bilas said. "He needs a baby-sitter. If you're willing to do that, fine. He could be terrific. He's not a bad kid. He's an immature kid. "If he acts like a professional and treats it like a job, the only person that can stop him is himself."
(Bilas not only covers the college game. He personally worked with Cousins a couple of years ago and said on the Bill Simmons interview that he was pulling for Cousin, but he didn’t like working with himI have no doubt, the pro camp will latch onto the last two sentences and the anti-will grab the first three … and thus the debate spins on)
From The Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100622/SPORTS0102/6220338/1127/DeMarcus-Cousins-is-more-question-than-%20answer#ixzz0rb6vGbQm
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Also, John Schuhmann tweeted that Cousins weighed in a 289 and on the OLT, even Cal said he should play around 270.
Really? It's Cal's job to help his guy - even if hypothetically he couldn’t stand the kid (not saying that’s the case). Particularly for a kid looking to go that high. Beyond helping his guy, good luck getting top level recruits when the media says, “Is the guy a hard worker” and you don’t take his side. You think Roy Williams and Coach K might make say 1 or 1,000 comments to recruits about Cal not having Cousin’s back.
Cal’s comments count about as much as his agent’s.
Baja, I respect your Cousins takes overall … but you are better than this post. Saying that Cal has no bias and should not be questioned is disingenuous.
Cal’s comments count about as much as his agent’s.
Baja, I respect your Cousins takes overall … but you are better than this post. Saying that Cal has no bias and should not be questioned is disingenuous.
I'm a little surprised at you fnordius. Don't you think something like being called Bi-Polar should be based on substance of some kind. Its one thing to take his bad rep and run with it, if thats what someone is inclined to do. At least there's been a few incidents to substantiate that he's had some problems. But to just throw Bi-Polar out there for the hell of it, because its the TDOS is just plain wrong in my opinion. Whats just fun speculation to some on this fourm, ends up being fact to others.
I'll admit that my life was almost ruined by a false rumor many years ago, and so I'm a little touchy in that regard.
I'll admit that my life was almost ruined by a false rumor many years ago, and so I'm a little touchy in that regard.
I have the greatest respect for Jay Bilas, and I'm sure he's had a lot of experience with Cousins in the past. And it is mostly the past that Bilas refers to. Cousins himself has admitted that he was an idiot in highschool, and seems to be a very polarizing figure. Calapari has said that Cousins matured considerably this past season. Orton somewhat threw him under the bus and Wall stood up for him. I watched him play 24 times. And yes there were some incidents, but I thought they became less as the season went on. Yes, I know he has some words with Calapari during the last game. But those were words born more out of frustration than anything else. He didn't want to lose and he was taking it hard.
I think its sad that almost all the talk is about his attitude or weight or the possibility of bi-polar, and little is said about his abilities as a player. Which is what we should be talking about at this time of the year. But were not. Aminu has had a checkered past as well. Little is said about him. Lance Stephenson was much more belligerent and disruptive this year on the Cinn. team, but no one is mentioning him. And I'm not saying Cousins should be given a free pass. Quite the contrary. His past record should be looked at and taken into consideration. But I do think we should try and keep a certain prespective about it.
Obviously I've made up my mind. After watching him play this past season there's no doubt he's the best center in the draft. He was well liked by his teammates and for the most part played hard when in the game. Yes, he could be in better shape, but he's hardly fat, as in Oliver Miller or the later Derrick Coleman. I think his talent outweighs the risk that may come with him. He has the size and talent to be an all star and one of the top 5 centers in the league. He could be the piece that moves the Kings to the next level, with emphasis on the word "could". I can't name one player on the board that will be drafted below him that I can say that about.
I'm sure that some will disagree with me. And thats fine! Its what makes the world go round. But I would suggest that if you hear a rumor about a player, rather than just take it at face value, go do a little investigating and see if it has any merit. And if so, is it being exaggerated? Sometimes its hard. I tried to find out about his confrontation with his highschool assistant coach. The coach says Cousins attacked him. Cousins says he was 16 years old and a grown man with his fist clenched was coming right at him and he defended himself. Which version is the truth? I couldn't get to the bottom of it, so we'll probably never know. I do know that some highschool coaches are complete idiots. I happen to know a couple that will remain nameless. But people are more likely to believe the coach than the player. And in this case, thats what happened, and perhaps they were right in doiing so. I don't know?
Here's what irritates me. Yesterday a sports reporter was talking about Cousins and brought up his forearm to the neck of the opposing player on the floor. He then says, almost mockinly that Cousins said that he was suppossedly kneed in the side of the head and was retaliating. Is the guy too lazy to do his homework. The video is on youtube for all to see. What Cousins said was correct. That doesn't excuse him from his reaction, but it does put him in a different light. It seperates normal behavior by most people from being just a big thug.
I think its sad that almost all the talk is about his attitude or weight or the possibility of bi-polar, and little is said about his abilities as a player. Which is what we should be talking about at this time of the year. But were not. Aminu has had a checkered past as well. Little is said about him. Lance Stephenson was much more belligerent and disruptive this year on the Cinn. team, but no one is mentioning him. And I'm not saying Cousins should be given a free pass. Quite the contrary. His past record should be looked at and taken into consideration. But I do think we should try and keep a certain prespective about it.
Obviously I've made up my mind. After watching him play this past season there's no doubt he's the best center in the draft. He was well liked by his teammates and for the most part played hard when in the game. Yes, he could be in better shape, but he's hardly fat, as in Oliver Miller or the later Derrick Coleman. I think his talent outweighs the risk that may come with him. He has the size and talent to be an all star and one of the top 5 centers in the league. He could be the piece that moves the Kings to the next level, with emphasis on the word "could". I can't name one player on the board that will be drafted below him that I can say that about.
I'm sure that some will disagree with me. And thats fine! Its what makes the world go round. But I would suggest that if you hear a rumor about a player, rather than just take it at face value, go do a little investigating and see if it has any merit. And if so, is it being exaggerated? Sometimes its hard. I tried to find out about his confrontation with his highschool assistant coach. The coach says Cousins attacked him. Cousins says he was 16 years old and a grown man with his fist clenched was coming right at him and he defended himself. Which version is the truth? I couldn't get to the bottom of it, so we'll probably never know. I do know that some highschool coaches are complete idiots. I happen to know a couple that will remain nameless. But people are more likely to believe the coach than the player. And in this case, thats what happened, and perhaps they were right in doiing so. I don't know?
Here's what irritates me. Yesterday a sports reporter was talking about Cousins and brought up his forearm to the neck of the opposing player on the floor. He then says, almost mockinly that Cousins said that he was suppossedly kneed in the side of the head and was retaliating. Is the guy too lazy to do his homework. The video is on youtube for all to see. What Cousins said was correct. That doesn't excuse him from his reaction, but it does put him in a different light. It seperates normal behavior by most people from being just a big thug.
I don't think that I said anywhere in my post that Calapari doesn't have a bias. Actually part of my point, which I guess I should have made clearer, is that the one person that would have the clearest opinion of Cousins is Calapari, and that no one would give his opinion any merit because he does have dog in the hunt.
I think one can safely say that PR is not one of his mainstays. Sometimes it can become a vicious circle. The press says bad things about you, so you don't trust the press. As a result your less than engaging with the press and less than open. So the press says more bad things about you.. Whom ever drafts him needs to protect him from the press for a while and tutor him at the same time. I do think he'll be given a free pass by the fans here and to a certain extent, the press. At least for a while. But where ever he goes, he needs to temper things for a while and let things die down.
Once again Baja, you make some great points. But I want to reiterate my point about the long big pile of leaves.
When you say other players don’t get the same treatment, well that’s exactly my point. Different red flags, but everybody knew that Beasley was involved in drugs, didn’t have a great work ethic, and was generally going to be a knuckle head. The reporters talk to people who are close to the situation, who pull them aside and say, look off the record ___. Without those sources, Jay Bilas isn’t going to say “Look, I’ve heard first hand from a lot of people that Beasley is drugged up, loser, knuckle head. He’d be sued and lose all of his sources. But when the evidence merits, we all get to read the red flag stories months before the draft … and that’s all we will ever get. We get those stories from December to June 30, “Good prospect but some major red flags.” And because of the inability of coaches to burn bridges, libel, and journalistic standards that’s all you are ever going to get … unless it’s in a public record.
Note - I’m talking about reputable people like Bilas, Simmons, Stein, ect. (If it’s whisper off a fan blog or something, then I flip and agree 100% with you.)
If we get a steady and monumental stream of red flags from those type of people it’s meaningful. I’ve listed the list before. It’s only approached this level with a handful of guys over the past 20 years. This is not the net or more media – from Coleman, Sheed, Ron-Ron, Beasley ect … the players that have the potential to be atomic lock room cancer are identified and reported to us in this same fashion for 20 years. Some guys like Josh Smith and JR Smith are problematic but manageable. They were worth the risk. Some players destroy franchises. While the assessment of the players is relevant so are the choices made by the players after the draft.
The pro Cousins camp is taking time picking apart the examples … but the fact is … we won’t know the supporting evidence before the draft. No matter how hard the team works, they will only have a decent guess.
Over the last decade, I cannot think of only two other players that got this type of Red Flag press. One was Beasley and the other was Ron-Ron. That’s it. That’s the list. If it’s coming from good sources, that means something.
When you say other players don’t get the same treatment, well that’s exactly my point. Different red flags, but everybody knew that Beasley was involved in drugs, didn’t have a great work ethic, and was generally going to be a knuckle head. The reporters talk to people who are close to the situation, who pull them aside and say, look off the record ___. Without those sources, Jay Bilas isn’t going to say “Look, I’ve heard first hand from a lot of people that Beasley is drugged up, loser, knuckle head. He’d be sued and lose all of his sources. But when the evidence merits, we all get to read the red flag stories months before the draft … and that’s all we will ever get. We get those stories from December to June 30, “Good prospect but some major red flags.” And because of the inability of coaches to burn bridges, libel, and journalistic standards that’s all you are ever going to get … unless it’s in a public record.
Note - I’m talking about reputable people like Bilas, Simmons, Stein, ect. (If it’s whisper off a fan blog or something, then I flip and agree 100% with you.)
If we get a steady and monumental stream of red flags from those type of people it’s meaningful. I’ve listed the list before. It’s only approached this level with a handful of guys over the past 20 years. This is not the net or more media – from Coleman, Sheed, Ron-Ron, Beasley ect … the players that have the potential to be atomic lock room cancer are identified and reported to us in this same fashion for 20 years. Some guys like Josh Smith and JR Smith are problematic but manageable. They were worth the risk. Some players destroy franchises. While the assessment of the players is relevant so are the choices made by the players after the draft.
The pro Cousins camp is taking time picking apart the examples … but the fact is … we won’t know the supporting evidence before the draft. No matter how hard the team works, they will only have a decent guess.
Over the last decade, I cannot think of only two other players that got this type of Red Flag press. One was Beasley and the other was Ron-Ron. That’s it. That’s the list. If it’s coming from good sources, that means something.
Or it could be that he's simply hard to work with and that comes through in his interview and his work with the press. It matches up with lots of reports - like Bilas. That was always the case with Sheed.
There are some great people that hate the press and/or don't deal well with them. He could be one.
The fact is his agents have told him that it's his job to talk to the press and he could cost himself a ton of money if he doesn't work with them ... He know that it's a short term important goal. Cousins either cannot do that job ... or more troubling, he's unwilling to listen to the people trying to help him and wants to do it his way.
I'm thinking the later and how that plays out down the road with coaches and people who want him to play closer to 270.
There are some great people that hate the press and/or don't deal well with them. He could be one.
The fact is his agents have told him that it's his job to talk to the press and he could cost himself a ton of money if he doesn't work with them ... He know that it's a short term important goal. Cousins either cannot do that job ... or more troubling, he's unwilling to listen to the people trying to help him and wants to do it his way.
I'm thinking the later and how that plays out down the road with coaches and people who want him to play closer to 270.
Well this is all subjective on our part. The truth is that none of us know whats going on in Cousins head. Here's the thing about the interviews. I've probably watched at least 35 or 40 interviews from various locations from youtube etc. In some of those interviews he comes across as a very nice kid whose able to poke fun at himself and those around him. In some others he appears defensive and somewhat angry to be sitting there. I don't personally know Cousins. I don't even know someone that does know him. So I don't pretend to know how he'll turn out. I can only guess. Just like you and everyone else. And of course I see him through my own lense and not yours.
To be fair to him, I think that since he's been compared to Derrick Coleman the most, it should be remembered that Cousins is 19 years old, about to turn 20 this july I believe. Coleman was 23 years old when he was drafted. So I think it was much easier to get a read on Coleman than it is Cousins right now. I would think that Josh Smith would be a closer comparison since he was 19 when drafted and similar immaturity issues. Ron Artest is just made up of different DNA than the rest of the human race. He's not bad, he's just very very different.
To be fair to him, I think that since he's been compared to Derrick Coleman the most, it should be remembered that Cousins is 19 years old, about to turn 20 this july I believe. Coleman was 23 years old when he was drafted. So I think it was much easier to get a read on Coleman than it is Cousins right now. I would think that Josh Smith would be a closer comparison since he was 19 when drafted and similar immaturity issues. Ron Artest is just made up of different DNA than the rest of the human race. He's not bad, he's just very very different.
There's a lot of truth here. And we've been over all sides of this issue again and again so it's more or less just restating the case at this point, but it's important to put this in perspective. Are there more questions about Cousins' makeup than the other top 5 prospects this year? Sure. But I've seen nothing to put him in the same league as Artest. He's not throwing out non-sequitors in every interview and making you question his sanity. For the most part he's answering all the questions in an honest and straight forward way, even the combative questions (of which there've been many). He's also just 19 years old and already remarkably skilled. Why shouldn't he continue to get better?
Overall I think the level of risk associated with drafting Cousins seems way overblown. Usually when you're looking at risk/reward it's in regards to a good player who doesn't have ideal size for their position or a raw athlete with a lot of work to do before their skill level is league average. Cousins has ideal size in every way and a very developed skillset not to mention a very productive college season on his resume. The only way it doesn't work out is if he does not want to be in the NBA, but I don't think anyone who saw him play last year would believe that.
Overall I think the level of risk associated with drafting Cousins seems way overblown. Usually when you're looking at risk/reward it's in regards to a good player who doesn't have ideal size for their position or a raw athlete with a lot of work to do before their skill level is league average. Cousins has ideal size in every way and a very developed skillset not to mention a very productive college season on his resume. The only way it doesn't work out is if he does not want to be in the NBA, but I don't think anyone who saw him play last year would believe that.