ESPN says front office is lazy

[KingKong55]

The Monday per Diem column on Espn.com says the Kings front office got outworked and got robbed. It said the Kings should have gotten a lot more for K-Mart.

"That story echoes a fairly constant background noise that's been heard about Sacramento in recent years. The Kings have a small front office and nearly everybody in it has been there forever; one gets the impression not that they've lost their basketball acumen, but that they aren't putting in the legwork anymore."

"A series of lazy deals -- giving Beno Udrih the full midlevel rather than checking out the point guard market, or signing Francisco Garcia to a ridiculous $35 million extension -- were the first indicators, and this is the latest. Sacramento made an OK deal with Martin -- I gave the Kings a B-plus on the merits of the trade itself -- but the Kings had the assets to put together a great deal and failed."

"The Kings weren't the only ones who sold themselves short, by the way. Several other NBA execs were disappointed they hadn't been told more openly of Martin's availability, feeling they had the goods to make a substantial offer for his services. Boston was a perfect fit, but by no means the only one.

Thus, we get to perhaps the greatest unknown of this year's trade season: What contender might have been able to win the Martin sweepstakes had such an event been held, and how might that have altered the coming postseason?"

 

[kennadog]

Generally, ESPN's actual knowledge of anything Kings is terrible. I ignore them most of the time.

 

[DocHolliday]

I agree with Kennadog. All the other articles I've read has been an A, or A- grading for the Kings. ESPN Hates us unless we are in the WCF, then we are relevant to them.

 

[91sickness]

However it is an interesting point to note that if we made it known Martin was on the market, we may have been able to get a little more than what we got. Plenty of teams would have been interested in him, however I dont know how interested we would have been in what they were offering. We were the only reason the tmac to houston deal went down so we would have had that in our back pocket all along. We could have tried to get teams bidding against each other 4 martin and upped the anti a little bit. Hopefully we can do something productive with out capspace....but im not getting my hopes up.

 

[Bricklayer]

"The Kings weren't the only ones who sold themselves short, by the way. Several other NBA execs were disappointed they hadn't been told more openly of Martin's availability, feeling they had the goods to make a substantial offer for his services. Boston was a perfect fit, but by no means the only one.

This quote however is interesting, if true. The rest...just speculation. The Kings had the assets to put together a great trade etc. etc. = the same sort of thing we do around here. It looked like it, but it takes two to tango and who knows. You just assume we tried.

But that quote above, that other execs say they didn't know the extent of Kevin's availability...that does speak to an error or weakness in our front office. An error if they did not get the word out, a weakness if geoff's eternal player-centric approach wouldn't allow him to broadcast it for fear of hurting Kevin's feelings or something. In any case it would cast some question upon whether we got the best offer, because it might mean there were teams out there who never even knew they could offer.

 

[Vlade4GM]

All I'm going to say is that their suggestions sound plausible to me.

 

[DocHolliday]

Sure if we were actively shopping Martin we would have been foolish to not have let everyone know to see what we could get.

But in the interview with Geoff Petrie on Sports Line, Geoff said frankly he didn't want to trade Martin. He was not shopping Martin, when people would call he told them Martin was not available.

When Houston contacted the Kings to get involved in the deal, that was the first time Geoff thought it was intriguing. Now he didnt' say specifically why, but I'm guessing, because Houston had a low post guy, we need a low post guy, and PW wants the team to be tough, Petrie agrees, and Martin isn't tough.

So it's kind of like what came first the chicken or the egg. Once a deal comes your way to possibly sway your decision of not wanting to trade Martin, do you then go out to all the other GM's and say, "Ok, Martin IS available and this is what we're interested in from your team"? You could, but up until that point you really hadn't been interested, but the Houston deal suddenly interested you.

I mean if you look the trade on paper, it could not look as good, or look pretty good depending on what angle you are looking at it from. If you look at Martin's career stats, and just say, he is a 20ppg + scorer, what the hell did you do...ok I get that. But, I don't care if he scores 50ppg, if he doesn't fit with the concept of where the team is going, then he needs to be moved to get someone who will fit into what you're doing.

 

[kennadog]

This quote however is interesting, if true. The rest...just speculation. The Kings had the assets to put together a great trade etc. etc. = the same sort of thing we do around here. It looked like it, but it takes two to tango and who knows. You just assume we tried.

But that quote above, that other execs say they didn't know the extent of Kevin's availability...that does speak to an error or weakness in our front office. An error if they did not get the word out, a weakness if geoff's eternal player-centric approach wouldn't allow him to broadcast it for fear of hurting Kevin's feelings or something. In any case it would cast some question upon whether we got the best offer, because it might mean there were teams out there who never even knew they could offer.

To me though, that is a two-sided deal. I can't count the number of times I've heard people say something like, "Well if I'd known that, then I would have...." And it's usually people, who will only say that after the fact. If they were really that interested in Martin, all they had to do was make an offer. What stopped them from asking about Martin, as apparently they didn't? Laziness, maybe?

 

[NME]

The supposed mystery of his availability didn't stop Boston and Dallas from telling everyone in earshot that they wanted to send us Ray Allen and Josh Howard, which would have been like trading him to Houston for T-Mac and no Landry coming back. Given that the "perfect fit" Celtics aren't going to give up Perkins or Rondo, they had nothing that we would want. What awesome deals do they imagine we missed out on?

 

[Bricklayer]

Sure if we were actively shopping Martin we would have been foolish to not have let everyone know to see what we could get.

But in the interview with Geoff Petrie on Sports Line, Geoff said frankly he didn't want to trade Martin. He was not shopping Martin, when people would call he told them Martin was not available.

When Houston contacted the Kings to get involved in the deal, that was the first time Geoff thought it was intriguing. Now he didnt' say specifically why, but I'm guessing, because Houston had a low post guy, we need a low post guy, and PW wants the team to be tough, Petrie agrees, and Martin isn't tough.

So it's kind of like what came first the chicken or the egg. Once a deal comes your way to possibly sway your decision of not wanting to trade Martin, do you then go out to all the other GM's and say, "Ok, Martin IS available and this is what we're interested in from your team"? You could, but up until that point you really hadn't been interested, but the Houston deal suddenly interested you.

I mean if you look the trade on paper, it could not look as good, or look pretty good depending on what angle you are looking at it from. If you look at Martin's career stats, and just say, he is a 20ppg + scorer, what the hell did you do...ok I get that. But, I don't care if he scores 50ppg, if he doesn't fit with the concept of where the team is going, then he needs to be moved to get someone who will fit into what you're doing.

At the point you realize you are wiling to trade Kevin to SOMEONE, it is simply irresponsible not to offer him to EVERYONE and see what is out there. Its not like Houston was offering Lebron or some unmatchable package. An ender and a pretty good young player. Ok, cool, fine. But if you've got that in your pocket, why on earth wouldn't you make 28 phone calls and say ok, I'm ready to move on a deal where I get an ender and a good young player, are you willing to beat that?

Generally I thought the deal was fine. Not a home run, but fine. Moved us forward. But casting it as 1) Geoff was an idiot and did not see the necessity of moving Kevin; and 2) woke up one morning and saw a deal he liked and said, "ah guess I'll do that one" without calling around; is not the way to make me feel we got the best possible outcome there.

 

[Bricklayer]

To me though, that is a two-sided deal. I can't count the number of times I've heard people say something like, "Well if I'd known that, then I would have...." And it's usually people, who will only say that after the fact. If they were really that interested in Martin, all they had to do was make an offer. What stopped them from asking about Martin, as apparently they didn't? Laziness, maybe?

Geoff, by reports. Telling them to jump in a lake.


But yes, you are right about the syndrome. And in the NBA in particular, which is filled with a bunch of ninnies terrified of being canned at any time for one wrong move, everybody seems to want to offer you stupidly low ball deals. Very few people are seriosu about getting anything done, because they're chicken ****s. Then when a deal does get done, then they can finally see the value fixed and say "I could have beat that!" Never would have offered it to you straight up though.

That's different then not even knowing a guy is available though.

 

[Luv4Kings]

At least it was light-years better than what we got for Webber.

It did seem like a last minute deal, but Petrie always plays everything close to the vest. I have to assume he was talking to people while saying he wasn't and this is what he felt was best.

It's not great, but it could have been a lot worse.

Unless, as some are saying, Landy is another K-9. But I don't think so.

I would have liked a center instead of yet another power forward, however.

 

[DocHolliday]

At the point you realize you are wiling to trade Kevin to SOMEONE, it is simply irresponsible not to offer him to EVERYONE and see what is out there. Its not like Houston was offering Lebron or some unmatchable package. An ender and a pretty good young player. Ok, cool, fine. But if you've got that in your pocket, why on earth wouldn't you make 28 phone calls and say ok, I'm ready to move on a deal where I get an ender and a good young player, are you willing to beat that?

Generally I thought the deal was fine. Not a home run, but fine. Moved us forward. But casting it as 1) Geoff was an idiot and did not see the necessity of moving Kevin; and 2) woke up one morning and saw a deal he liked and said, "ah guess I'll do that one" without calling around; is not the way to make me feel we got the best possible outcome there.

I understand your point, but I don't think the criteria was definitely an ender and a young player. I think it was a low post presence, that can play some defense, and get you some points.

If that is only one person, because of salary, cool. If it's multiple, well I may not want to keep the others, so they need to be enders.

However, I also feel like the Houston deal was volatile, and if they hadn't jumped in when they did, someone else may have stepped in to be the 3rd team by the time you can call all the other teams, and evaluate the offers. Petrie had said literally that deal began to come together the night Kevin was dealt, and then completed the next day. There wasn't much time to have the "100% in a perfect world scenario".

 

[Rookie]

If the Houston figured out how to get KMart without GP annoucing to the whole world that KMart is up for the bidding...then any other team that wanted KMart could of done the same thing.

I think GP pick the best of what he was offered, giving him the benefit of the doubt that majority of people would do the same. Maybe he could of waited a little longer to see other offers but then there's a chance that you just might lose out and get nothing.

Personally I don't think annoucing a player is on the market while he's still playing for you is a wise move. GMs keep it inhouse until they're done, which is how it should be.

 

[Merdiesel]

The Monday per Diem column on Espn.com says the Kings front office got outworked and got robbed. It said the Kings should have gotten a lot more for K-Mart.

"That story echoes a fairly constant background noise that's been heard about Sacramento in recent years. The Kings have a small front office and nearly everybody in it has been there forever; one gets the impression not that they've lost their basketball acumen, but that they aren't putting in the legwork anymore."

"A series of lazy deals -- giving Beno Udrih the full midlevel rather than checking out the point guard market, or signing Francisco Garcia to a ridiculous $35 million extension -- were the first indicators, and this is the latest. Sacramento made an OK deal with Martin -- I gave the Kings a B-plus on the merits of the trade itself -- but the Kings had the assets to put together a great deal and failed."

"The Kings weren't the only ones who sold themselves short, by the way. Several other NBA execs were disappointed they hadn't been told more openly of Martin's availability, feeling they had the goods to make a substantial offer for his services. Boston was a perfect fit, but by no means the only one.

Thus, we get to perhaps the greatest unknown of this year's trade season: What contender might have been able to win the Martin sweepstakes had such an event been held, and how might that have altered the coming postseason?"

Well that ****ing pisses me off.

 

[NoBonus]

I love the notion that the Kings should have traded Martin to a contender, especially Boston... because they have lots of young, proven, skilled bigs they would have traded away, right? The Kings should have gone for Big Baby Davis and Brian Scallopedpotatoes...

 

[JB_kings]

So using the ESPN logic, Geoff was lazy for not calling every GM in the league to find the best deal for Martin. Does this not also mean that all other GMs are equally lazy for not calling him or just offering salary dumps that got turned down?

Unless I hear the Minny called and offered Jefferson or something like this, it has to be sour grapes on the other end to take off some heat on their own jobs. Honestly Ainge might be that guy since he couldn't come up with an offer that was anywhere near what Houston had. So where is the real smoke?

I mean the Warriors fans heard about a Monta Ellis to the Grizz for Mayo that got shot down. Where are these kinds of rumors surrounding Martin? All I heard was the awful offers from the Celtics and Mavs.

 

[kennadog]

Geoff, by reports. Telling them to jump in a lake.


But yes, you are right about the syndrome. And in the NBA in particular, which is filled with a bunch of ninnies terrified of being canned at any time for one wrong move, everybody seems to want to offer you stupidly low ball deals. Very few people are seriosu about getting anything done, because they're chicken ****s. Then when a deal does get done, then they can finally see the value fixed and say "I could have beat that!" Never would have offered it to you straight up though.

That's different then not even knowing a guy is available though.

Well, the article didn't imply that. It says, "Several other NBA execs were disappointed they hadn't been told more openly of Martin's availability, feeling they had the goods to make a substantial offer for his services." To me that doesn't say GP totally rebuffed them. By that very statement, they clearly had some indication, somehow, that Martin might be available, it just wasn't made obvious enough? The phone works both ways, guys. The writer can accuse GP of being lazy, but he has just as good a cause to call those GM's lazy, as far as I can see. GP could read that and say, "If you could make a better offer, why the hell didn't you tell me that more openly?"

Edit: Just saw your post JB kings.

 

[NoBonus]

I do not recall where, but Geoff did say something to the effect of he was not willing to trade KMart for just expirings... that sounded like he was willing to trade KMart to me.

 

[JB_kings]

Well that ****ing pisses me off.

Why are you upset? We all heard the Celtics and Mavs offers and they were not nearly as good as Houston's. If another team really had a better offer, where is it? I promise to get as equally upset as you if I hear about one that was better.

Takes two parties to make a trade. Don't fault Petrie for not putting Martin on eBay and creating a fire sale when he is willing to keep him. Every GM in the league knew that Martin could be had for the right price because every fan here knew the same thing.

 

[NME]

I do not recall where, but Geoff did say something to the effect of he was not willing to trade KMart for just expirings... that sounded like he was willing to trade KMart to me.

Any GM who didn't understand this has to be a moron without access to print or online media. It was clear that the message was he wasn't looking to offload Kevin at all costs, but that a good offer might be entertained.

 

[hammystyle]

It puts words to something I've considered myself in recent years. The Beno and Francisco contracts were examples where we just gave away money by taking the path of least resistance. Its not bad to resign them, its bad that we did not exert any leverage to bargain down the contract. Garcia was particularly egregious. We signed him 10 months before he was slated to even become a restricted free agent, then paid him more than anyone was reasonably likely to give him. We held ALL the leverage, and still lost the negotiation. Its crazy.

So I'm not going to beat the FO up on this deal, because I think its solid. Additionally its true that the "after the fact" chorus is crying foul because they didn't get anything done....but there are real seeds of truth in the criticism...and its conceivable that with more aggressive tactics we'd have extracted more for Martin.

 

[sactownfan]

Wow guys really? This was a good trade that gets even better after or if we can sign an impact player that fits here...

This is all after the fact... If teams wanted him so bad geoff knew about it... They probably didn't have what we wanted tho

 

[Warhawk]

Any GM who didn't understand this has to be a moron without access to print or online media. It was clear that the message was he wasn't looking to offload Kevin at all costs, but that a good offer might be entertained.

Agreed.

 

[Asaf]

Well that ****ing pisses me off.

Gee whiz! I guess we missed out on Orlando's offer to give us Dwight Howard for Martin? Gosh darnit!

 

[pshn80]

Agreed. Landry looks pretty good. He is certainly a player with some talents we need and don't have. If ours is a 'small front office' I wonder what the other ones look like. I suppose other teams still provide paper wrappers for their Kings Dogs.

 

[Wuster]

Gee whiz! I guess we missed out on Orlando's offer to give us Dwight Howard for Martin? Gosh darnit!

Asaf wins the thread.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

It puts words to something I've considered myself in recent years. The Beno and Francisco contracts were examples where we just gave away money by taking the path of least resistance. Its not bad to resign them, its bad that we did not exert any leverage to bargain down the contract.

Well, except for Beno, who by reports did have a full MLE offer from the Clippers. We tied it, which is what we had to do if we wanted him. The pickings behind Beno were pretty darn slim - and we didn't have a PG at all at that point without him.

 

[KingKong55]

The ESPN article gave this trade example. Do you think it is better than Landry, Dorsey, Hughes + cap space?

"Consider, for starters, what would have been the perfect home for Martin: Boston. The Kings could have sent Martin and little-used Andres Nocioni to the Celtics for Ray Allen and a first-round pick, and cleared $18 million in cap room (the Celtics, given their current time horizon, would have blurted out yes to this offer in a nanosecond).

They then could have used Allen and Kenny Thomas in a deal with the Knicks and walked away with the exact same trove of assets that the Rockets did. If so, Sacramento wouldn't have Landry, but look at what they'd have instead: Jordan Hill, New York's 2012 first-rounder, Boston's 2011 first-rounder, the right to swap picks with New York in 2011 (admittedly, an item of more value to Houston given the two clubs' likely records next season), and the same cap room they cleared with the Martin trade."

 

[NME]

The second part, we could have done in conjunction with the Landry deal and declined. I don't think the organization is willing to take on a bad contract in return for only a marginal asset.

So the question is whether a very low 1st and getting rid of Noc is better than Landry/Dorsey. That would have been a reasonable way to go if you want maximum future flexibility, but I wouldn't say it's better than getting back a tangible asset that provides some of the frontcourt balance we desperately need.