Yahoo: Three-way deal sending Nocioni to Celtics? (Yahoo! Sports)
- Thread starter Revrag
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Just an idea. What if we traded away 'Cisco instead of Noc in this deal. The idea being we get rid of a player who is not part of the current chemistry becuase they are not playing and we get the big for whom we have been looking. Also clears the log-jam at the 3.
Again, this is just an idea here...kind of thinking out loud.
Again, this is just an idea here...kind of thinking out loud.
This isn't directed fully at you LL, but I do see a lot of this about guys like Dalembert and Okafor on this board. Dalembert was #5 in blocks and rebounds last year per 48. Okafor was top 15 as well.
It's just surprising that when we're finally getting a look at bringing in a player to fill a huge gap and only having to give up KT/Nocioni types that there is so much negativity.
It's just surprising that when we're finally getting a look at bringing in a player to fill a huge gap and only having to give up KT/Nocioni types that there is so much negativity.
Is Nocioni in the long term plans of the team? I suspect the probable answer is no. When looking around the league, is he and average starter. Below average starter, or above average starter. In fairness, though he's come off the bench a lot in his career, I'd call him an average starter. We have another player in street clothes thats remarkably similar to him in Cisco. Its true that Cisco isn't available right now. And its true that he may not even play much this year. But I'm talking about the long range plans of the team, not the short term.
To think only in the short term is to be short sighted. If you become too shortsighted, if you wait for the opportunity to come knocking on your door, you can quickly become stuck in the status quo. While Nocioni is a decent to good defender, depending on who he's trying to defend, he'll never make the all defensive team. Or second team for that matter. He's a player thats limited athleticly and skill wise, but makes up for it with hustle and intensity. He's your basic overachiever. And thats not a knock on him. A year from now he'll be a year older, and the older he gets, the more likely an injury will occur. Not necessarily anything major. But things like hamstring pulls. Tendonitis of the elbow. Things like that. And the harder he will become to move.
This is all speculation on my part of course. He's been pretty durable throughout his career. But he's about to turn 30, and a year from now it will be 31. And he's a player thats coveted for his intangibles. And as he gets older, its his intangibles that will start to diminish. Especially the hustle part.
While the Kings are playing much better defense, they're hardly considered a defensive juggernaut. They currently have no backup center. And spare me Sean May, who is having a hard time getting on the floor in any capacity. Put May on the floor with Thompson, Evans, Beno and Nocioni, and he looks like he's moving in slow motion. I see no hustle or intensity at all from him. If the rumor is true, we have a chance to fill the hole at backup center with a player that is a true defensive player. His record speaks for itself. He is flawed. But mostly on the offensive side of the ball. Who knows, maybe its not too late for Coachie to teach him something. We also have a chance to rid ourselves of a long term contract, giving us flexability after next year. And in a market that will be devoid of as many buyers as there will be in the next offseason.
Is there a chance that this kind of move will screw up the chemistry of the team? Yeah, it possible. But is the team as its presently formed a championship team? Of course not. So some other pieces are going to be added in order to accomplish that. And those moves could screw up the chemistry as well. We can't afford to get caught up in paralysis by analysis. You've got to grab the gold ring when it comes around. Otherwise you chance becoming nothing more than a spectator.
To think only in the short term is to be short sighted. If you become too shortsighted, if you wait for the opportunity to come knocking on your door, you can quickly become stuck in the status quo. While Nocioni is a decent to good defender, depending on who he's trying to defend, he'll never make the all defensive team. Or second team for that matter. He's a player thats limited athleticly and skill wise, but makes up for it with hustle and intensity. He's your basic overachiever. And thats not a knock on him. A year from now he'll be a year older, and the older he gets, the more likely an injury will occur. Not necessarily anything major. But things like hamstring pulls. Tendonitis of the elbow. Things like that. And the harder he will become to move.
This is all speculation on my part of course. He's been pretty durable throughout his career. But he's about to turn 30, and a year from now it will be 31. And he's a player thats coveted for his intangibles. And as he gets older, its his intangibles that will start to diminish. Especially the hustle part.
While the Kings are playing much better defense, they're hardly considered a defensive juggernaut. They currently have no backup center. And spare me Sean May, who is having a hard time getting on the floor in any capacity. Put May on the floor with Thompson, Evans, Beno and Nocioni, and he looks like he's moving in slow motion. I see no hustle or intensity at all from him. If the rumor is true, we have a chance to fill the hole at backup center with a player that is a true defensive player. His record speaks for itself. He is flawed. But mostly on the offensive side of the ball. Who knows, maybe its not too late for Coachie to teach him something. We also have a chance to rid ourselves of a long term contract, giving us flexability after next year. And in a market that will be devoid of as many buyers as there will be in the next offseason.
Is there a chance that this kind of move will screw up the chemistry of the team? Yeah, it possible. But is the team as its presently formed a championship team? Of course not. So some other pieces are going to be added in order to accomplish that. And those moves could screw up the chemistry as well. We can't afford to get caught up in paralysis by analysis. You've got to grab the gold ring when it comes around. Otherwise you chance becoming nothing more than a spectator.
If we don't maintain some kind of chemistry and get some posteriors in the seats, the Kings might not have an arena in which to play those hypothetical championship games. I'm sorry but that argument always cracks me up. TWO teams a year go to the NBA finals. Just two.
I'm talking about not doing this trade at this point in time for a variety of reasons, all fairly obvious and including one of the biggest goals of the organization at this very moment and that's reestablishing the fan base as active and involved.
You keep talking about grabbing the gold ring. Are you truly saying Samuel Dalembert is so valuable we should grab him even if it means disrupting what is real and tangible at this moment in time?
Sorry, but that's throwing out the baby with the bath water as far as I'm concerned. Trade KT if you must, although I see his contract increasing in value as we near the trade deadline, but do not trade away Nocioni on the thought that once Cisco comes back he'll be superfluous. Cisco isn't back and we have no idea when he will be back. Greene is nowhere near being reliable at this point.
I want to continue to see the fun and excitement of a team starting to grow together, putting forth maximum effort and hustle. Nocioni has been a key in that regard.
I'm talking about not doing this trade at this point in time for a variety of reasons, all fairly obvious and including one of the biggest goals of the organization at this very moment and that's reestablishing the fan base as active and involved.
You keep talking about grabbing the gold ring. Are you truly saying Samuel Dalembert is so valuable we should grab him even if it means disrupting what is real and tangible at this moment in time?
Sorry, but that's throwing out the baby with the bath water as far as I'm concerned. Trade KT if you must, although I see his contract increasing in value as we near the trade deadline, but do not trade away Nocioni on the thought that once Cisco comes back he'll be superfluous. Cisco isn't back and we have no idea when he will be back. Greene is nowhere near being reliable at this point.
I want to continue to see the fun and excitement of a team starting to grow together, putting forth maximum effort and hustle. Nocioni has been a key in that regard.
It's not negativity. It's differing opinions. And each side has merit. If you look, most people who are saying not to do this particular trade are saying so precisely because they're seeing positive effort from the team right now and don't want to disrupt it.
I can understand your viewpoint, which is more based in statistics, but I also see the viewpoint of those who are looking at current results. There's room for both...without the negativity stuff.
We're all Kings fans, and we're all talking about our team with an enthusiasm I haven't seen in a very, very long time. I'd say that's pretty positive.
EDIT: I will agree with not liking to see players like Dalembert or Okafor (or anyone else, FTM) referred to as "bums"...
I can understand your viewpoint, which is more based in statistics, but I also see the viewpoint of those who are looking at current results. There's room for both...without the negativity stuff.
We're all Kings fans, and we're all talking about our team with an enthusiasm I haven't seen in a very, very long time. I'd say that's pretty positive.
EDIT: I will agree with not liking to see players like Dalembert or Okafor (or anyone else, FTM) referred to as "bums"...
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It's not negativity. It's differing opinions. And each side has merit. If you look, most people who are saying not to do this particular trade are saying so precisely because they're seeing positive effort from the team right now and don't want to disrupt it.
I can understand your viewpoint, which is more based in statistics, but I also see the viewpoint of those who are looking at current results. There's room for both...without the negativity stuff.
We're all Kings fans, and we're all talking about our team with an enthusiasm I haven't seen in a very, very long time. I'd say that's pretty positive.
I can understand your viewpoint, which is more based in statistics, but I also see the viewpoint of those who are looking at current results. There's room for both...without the negativity stuff.
We're all Kings fans, and we're all talking about our team with an enthusiasm I haven't seen in a very, very long time. I'd say that's pretty positive.
S
Wow, umm.... What? Well let's get real here. I'm not even talkin about this trade now. But Noc and KT are not part of fixing anything... And doing anything to win now is straight retarded. I love that were winning and being scappy but really??? Were not anywhere near the don't mess with a good thing talk.
The point is you don't go and change something just to see if you had chemistry. Do you know why? Because you can't just say "DO OVER" and put it back the way it was. It doesn't happen like that.
As much as we have disliked Kenny Thomas, fact of the matter is Westphal has got him to contribute. As much as some inlcuding me disliked Nocioni's contract, fact of the matter he is contributed to this team.
Do I think Nocioni is apart of making this team better in the long run......yes. Nocioni off the ben for the next 2 to 3 years as a new starter emerges would in no way be a bad thing.
And even if KT And Nocioni are in no way part of the long term plans of the team you still don't make trades, just because you THINK they aren't. You have to wait for the right trade. And it is documented that Dalembert has a motivation problem. We've seen that before. Do you want to see that on this time now, just when EVERYONE is playing in a motivated fashion?? And let's add that, the someone would be making 12 mill a year!
I don't think is anyone is saying don't make a trade at all ever this year. What we're saying is it has to be the right deal, and the closer we get to the trade deadline the sweeter the deals will be, as long as these players keep playing at a high level as they are right now.
As much as we have disliked Kenny Thomas, fact of the matter is Westphal has got him to contribute. As much as some inlcuding me disliked Nocioni's contract, fact of the matter he is contributed to this team.
Do I think Nocioni is apart of making this team better in the long run......yes. Nocioni off the ben for the next 2 to 3 years as a new starter emerges would in no way be a bad thing.
And even if KT And Nocioni are in no way part of the long term plans of the team you still don't make trades, just because you THINK they aren't. You have to wait for the right trade. And it is documented that Dalembert has a motivation problem. We've seen that before. Do you want to see that on this time now, just when EVERYONE is playing in a motivated fashion?? And let's add that, the someone would be making 12 mill a year!
I don't think is anyone is saying don't make a trade at all ever this year. What we're saying is it has to be the right deal, and the closer we get to the trade deadline the sweeter the deals will be, as long as these players keep playing at a high level as they are right now.
I'm not saying your wrong. But right now everyone is basing their opinion on nine games. Thats a very short sampling on which to make a decision. What if we go and lose 6 in a row. Will that put people in the seats? Don't get me wrong, I like what the team has accomplished. I'm as thrilled as anyone. But based on the youth on the team. The inexperience on the team, I think it fair to say that the team is overachieving. And You could argue thats even more reason not to trade away someone like Nocioni. And you could be right in the short term.
But someone please tell me what happens when Hawes goes down with a twisted ankle, or worse, a broken bone somewhere. Or worse yet, something happens to Thompson. You tell me who picks up the slack then. Nocioni? May? We have a huge hole on this team, and right now were stepping around it. We're one mis-step from a disastor. Either one of our bigs goes down for any reason, for any length of time and were done. Its a loss we can't afford. Okafor, Dalembert, I don't care which one. But both are quality players that could divert that disaster. Calvin Booth isn't going to cut it.
So are we proactive, and head it off at the pass, or do we sit and hope that lightning doesn't strike?
But someone please tell me what happens when Hawes goes down with a twisted ankle, or worse, a broken bone somewhere. Or worse yet, something happens to Thompson. You tell me who picks up the slack then. Nocioni? May? We have a huge hole on this team, and right now were stepping around it. We're one mis-step from a disastor. Either one of our bigs goes down for any reason, for any length of time and were done. Its a loss we can't afford. Okafor, Dalembert, I don't care which one. But both are quality players that could divert that disaster. Calvin Booth isn't going to cut it.
So are we proactive, and head it off at the pass, or do we sit and hope that lightning doesn't strike?
If we are getting these type of offers for KT and Noc right now, imagine what we could get leading up to the trade deadline? I would think, the longer we hold on to KT, the better the offers will get. But I could be wrong.
There are aspects to this deal I like. Salumbert would be a great addition to this team. But the more I think about it, why throw in Noc to boston right now? Noc has played great, and has provided a lot of leadership on the court. He plays extremely hard and sets the tone for the young guys. I don't think we can discouthe influence he has had on them.
It appears to me that Sac and Phi were talking about swapping KT for Salumbert. Then, boston came into the discussion. I would rather us try to make the KT of Dalembert work, and leave boston out of it and keep Noc for now. That way we aren't disrupting our newfound chemistry, and eliminating one of our veteran leaders. Salembert , IMO, can come in without disrupting anything if its only KT we're giving up. Then, in a month or two, when we have a better idea of what we have with this group, we can try to move Noc is a seperate deal leading up to the deadline.
There are aspects to this deal I like. Salumbert would be a great addition to this team. But the more I think about it, why throw in Noc to boston right now? Noc has played great, and has provided a lot of leadership on the court. He plays extremely hard and sets the tone for the young guys. I don't think we can discouthe influence he has had on them.
It appears to me that Sac and Phi were talking about swapping KT for Salumbert. Then, boston came into the discussion. I would rather us try to make the KT of Dalembert work, and leave boston out of it and keep Noc for now. That way we aren't disrupting our newfound chemistry, and eliminating one of our veteran leaders. Salembert , IMO, can come in without disrupting anything if its only KT we're giving up. Then, in a month or two, when we have a better idea of what we have with this group, we can try to move Noc is a seperate deal leading up to the deadline.
You can talk all you want about chemistry, but the fact of the matter is no one on this team has or ever will have the skills that a defensive big will bring. We don't even have a decent 3 man rotation up front. We are one injury to JT or Hawes away from an undersized front court. This team has a HUGE hole up front. For as "good" as we have been for 5 games this season, we are still one of the worst defensive teams in the league based on field goal percentage and blocks and that is a fact. Nothing breeds chemistry like winning, and we are not going to keep winning if we do not get some more big bodies on the team to play defense. At this point, I think we are too good to be counting on the lottery and not good enough defensively to be talking about playoffs. A move for a defensive big right now will fill up the huge hole that we still have, help us win games, and we could be talking playoffs this year.
This is quite a debacle... Going forward with a trade that sends Nocioni away does make room for players like Greene and Casspi to step up... which is important... on the other hand, if Greene and Casspi can't fill what Noc brings, we could see ourselves losing a couple more games. And right now, like VF is saying, winning is actually important... we need more people in those seats. If we wan't to see the Kings in Sacramento a 10 years from now its vital we start garnering support. Then again... a trade like this could propell this team to the next level and accomplish all of the positives above. I hope we make the right choice!
So maybe that's why we've gotten above .500 for the first time in eons?
Just sayin'...
Nocioni is a big part of that chemistry. If you've watched the games, you've seen his heart and hustle. You notice it even more in Arco. He's a very active team player, on and off the court. I just don't see trading him and KT for Dalembert and Gidden as being a big step up.
Just sayin'...
Nocioni is a big part of that chemistry. If you've watched the games, you've seen his heart and hustle. You notice it even more in Arco. He's a very active team player, on and off the court. I just don't see trading him and KT for Dalembert and Gidden as being a big step up.
I have no problem with this. I don't have this great desire to get rid of Nocioni. I just have a desire to get a backup center. I have no idea what the thinking of the front office is. They may think they could make a bigger splash in the 2011/2012 freeagent market when there aren't as many teams competing for the top freeagents.
If the Kings were to do this deal as proposed, and then let Dalembert's contract expire. They would be at $39,407,660.00 after making Hawes a qualifing offer. Its hard to say what the cap will be then. There will be in all likelyhood a new collective bargining agreement, and who knows, the economy may be back on the way up. Point is, that all the big players will probably have shot their wad the year before. So it might not be a bad idea to wait till then. Even Kobe's contract is up that year along with Gasol's. But others like Kendrick Perkins and Joel Przybilla are also scheduled to be available. Of course a lot can happen between now and then.
If the Kings were to do this deal as proposed, and then let Dalembert's contract expire. They would be at $39,407,660.00 after making Hawes a qualifing offer. Its hard to say what the cap will be then. There will be in all likelyhood a new collective bargining agreement, and who knows, the economy may be back on the way up. Point is, that all the big players will probably have shot their wad the year before. So it might not be a bad idea to wait till then. Even Kobe's contract is up that year along with Gasol's. But others like Kendrick Perkins and Joel Przybilla are also scheduled to be available. Of course a lot can happen between now and then.
From a sixers fan....
"As a Sixers fan I'll let you in on why we hate Samuel Dalembert.
As many of you have already taken notice, his attitude absolutely sucks. He constantly whines about playing time and has asked to be traded for awhile, but he does not produce.
He is probably the dumbest player in the NBA, and if he isn't, he's easily the dumbest player that receives any significant playing time.
Things you can expect from Samuel Dalembert:
-behind the back and through the leg dribbles(from a center with no handles)
-you will cringe everytime he comes down with an rebound and has to make an outlet pass or has to pass the ball in bounds, because there is a 50/50 shot it gets stolen
-he has no awareness of the situation of the game, he will get offensive rebounds and go right up for a shot even if the right thing to do is take it back top and re-set the play
-he makes stupid fouls constantly
-he has no focus, he'll give you 8 points 12 rebounds and 4 blocks one night and then won't do it again for 2 weeks(not because he doesn't have the ability, but because after a good game he thinks he's god)
-fadeaway jumpers, awkward sweeping hooks, and wannabe finger rolls are all a part of his offensive repetoire(or so he thinks)
You can see every night how dumbfounded the other Sixers players are at how stupid he is. When he's on the floor, we are at our worst.
He was kicked off the Canadian national team by the coach(seriously, the Canadia team. How can an NBA player making 12 mil get kicked off of Canada's team?)
If this trade were to happen I can't wait to check in on this forum to read all the posts about how, "stupid Dalembert is", or "why did we trade for this guy". Not because I want you guys to fail(I have no beef with the Kings or their fans), but just because it would be funny to see another fan base suffer from watching Dalembert play."
"As a Sixers fan I'll let you in on why we hate Samuel Dalembert.
As many of you have already taken notice, his attitude absolutely sucks. He constantly whines about playing time and has asked to be traded for awhile, but he does not produce.
He is probably the dumbest player in the NBA, and if he isn't, he's easily the dumbest player that receives any significant playing time.
Things you can expect from Samuel Dalembert:
-behind the back and through the leg dribbles(from a center with no handles)
-you will cringe everytime he comes down with an rebound and has to make an outlet pass or has to pass the ball in bounds, because there is a 50/50 shot it gets stolen
-he has no awareness of the situation of the game, he will get offensive rebounds and go right up for a shot even if the right thing to do is take it back top and re-set the play
-he makes stupid fouls constantly
-he has no focus, he'll give you 8 points 12 rebounds and 4 blocks one night and then won't do it again for 2 weeks(not because he doesn't have the ability, but because after a good game he thinks he's god)
-fadeaway jumpers, awkward sweeping hooks, and wannabe finger rolls are all a part of his offensive repetoire(or so he thinks)
You can see every night how dumbfounded the other Sixers players are at how stupid he is. When he's on the floor, we are at our worst.
He was kicked off the Canadian national team by the coach(seriously, the Canadia team. How can an NBA player making 12 mil get kicked off of Canada's team?)
If this trade were to happen I can't wait to check in on this forum to read all the posts about how, "stupid Dalembert is", or "why did we trade for this guy". Not because I want you guys to fail(I have no beef with the Kings or their fans), but just because it would be funny to see another fan base suffer from watching Dalembert play."
I don't mind the KT for Sam D part. As previously mentioned next year we have another big expiring contract. Plus Wesphal seems to be able to get goods things out of the players so far. So maybe that, plus a change of location gives Sam a boost.
The Noc part of the trade, just isn't enough in my opinion. We need a mid-teen bound first round pick or a better prospect than Giddens.
I agree to the chemistry concerns a bit too, but maybe a move by the Front Office re a Shot Blocker, will show the players that the Front Office is being active in improving this team, which definently wasn't the case last year.
The Noc part of the trade, just isn't enough in my opinion. We need a mid-teen bound first round pick or a better prospect than Giddens.
I agree to the chemistry concerns a bit too, but maybe a move by the Front Office re a Shot Blocker, will show the players that the Front Office is being active in improving this team, which definently wasn't the case last year.
I am not completely sold on Dalembert myself, but if we can fill that hole up front and give up next to nothing, you have to do it. All the heart and hustle in the world won't prevent teams from getting past our guards on the perimeter and laying it in. While Noc may contribute to the heart and hustle, he is far from the only guy on the team like that. JT, Omri, Evans, Beno all of a sudden, and Cisco will all still be here. Add Noc to that list and we have 3 scrappy SFs. We have no need for that. 2 is good enough. You have to give up a little to a gain a little more.