When should/could we extend Hawes contract?
- Thread starter upinsmoke
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At the very least wait until next summer - if he impresses and helps the team win more games, he's a keeper. If he's a double-double guy but does absolutely nothing to help the W column, I'd test him in the RFA market (if possible).
I want to keep him if he's a winner, but I'm fearful that the FO will overpay...knowing their history of overpaying and the history of other teams overpaying for homegrown talent as well as big men. It's like the overpaying-contract trifecta/perfect storm!
I want to keep him if he's a winner, but I'm fearful that the FO will overpay...knowing their history of overpaying and the history of other teams overpaying for homegrown talent as well as big men. It's like the overpaying-contract trifecta/perfect storm!
the latter part is why the earlier we reup him the better. He's a starting quality center in a league always looking for them. If we let him get to free agency, somebody will drop a $50 mil offer on him (think Dalembert, Chandler, even Varejao) and we'll have to match or lose him. Of course his agent knows this too and is unlikely to be in any hurry.
Hawes has flashed a lot of potential, but I wouldn't call him a starting quality center yet. He really hasn't accomplished much thus far in his career, which is understandable considering his age and limited play he got early on. This season will go a long way towards helping clear up which end of the spectrum he falls into.
Well, if he continues to progress and get better, then yes. However, guys can only lean on the potential label so long. If he doesn't show a lot more consistency and development, his value will take a hit.
I am not saying I think Hawes won't continue to get better and more consistent; I am just surprised at how fans always seem to just assume it will happen.
Very true. If his agent is worth anything, he knows that it is only to Hawes' advantage to wait until he has shown more value in order to drive his price up. The only downside for him in waiting is the risk of a major injury suddenly tanking his value. That is part of the risk vs. reward of extending early vs. testing free agency.
Well, if he continues to progress and get better, then yes. However, guys can only lean on the potential label so long. If he doesn't show a lot more consistency and development, his value will take a hit.
I am not saying I think Hawes won't continue to get better and more consistent; I am just surprised at how fans always seem to just assume it will happen.
Very true. If his agent is worth anything, he knows that it is only to Hawes' advantage to wait until he has shown more value in order to drive his price up. The only downside for him in waiting is the risk of a major injury suddenly tanking his value. That is part of the risk vs. reward of extending early vs. testing free agency.
Don't underestimate size in this league. He is easily a quality center. While his numbers are not gaudy, they are still respectable. Take a look at this year's FA crop, for example. There isn't anyone out there of value with relative size.
Hawes' potential and current ability put him at a premium, and he will be in demand - even at his current level of productivity.
Hawes' potential and current ability put him at a premium, and he will be in demand - even at his current level of productivity.
Hawes
Absolutely right. We have to reup him. Look around. There aren't that many quality centers in the league. Unfortunately it's not a performance based league as much as a potential based league. Therefor we must resign him or some team will make a gazillionaire out of him. If we let him go we are back to square one as far as centers go.
Absolutely right. We have to reup him. Look around. There aren't that many quality centers in the league. Unfortunately it's not a performance based league as much as a potential based league. Therefor we must resign him or some team will make a gazillionaire out of him. If we let him go we are back to square one as far as centers go.
Gotta disagree a little bit. Considering the type of surgery Hawes had on his knee, too much weight could end up being his undoing. Besides, weight and strength don't always go hand in hand.. Last time I looked Camby didn't resemble Karl Malone and he does just fine in this league.
So I would say that he needs to get stronger, but not necessarily much heavier. And to call him nanorexic is a bit of an overstatement. Maybe you were thinking of Anthony Randoph..
So I would say that he needs to get stronger, but not necessarily much heavier. And to call him nanorexic is a bit of an overstatement. Maybe you were thinking of Anthony Randoph..
Just in terms of his scoring ability and where he ranks to similar players, he's a steal. Comparative players such as Michael Redd, Ray Allen, etc. have made much more money to the tune of 5 million + per year over the life of their contracts. The most Kevin Martin will make in the most expensive year of his contract is 12.9 million, both Allen and Redd will make close to 19 million in theirs. That is a HUGE difference.
Gotta disagree a little bit. Considering the type of surgery Hawes had on his knee, too much weight could end up being his undoing. Besides, weight and strength don't always go hand in hand.. Last time I looked Camby didn't resemble Karl Malone and he does just fine in this league.
So I would say that he needs to get stronger, but not necessarily much heavier. And to call him nanorexic is a bit of an overstatement. Maybe you were thinking of Anthony Randoph..
So I would say that he needs to get stronger, but not necessarily much heavier. And to call him nanorexic is a bit of an overstatement. Maybe you were thinking of Anthony Randoph..
50 M for 6 years?
IMO, this is too high considering I agree with you that Hawes does a lot of things well, but doesn't really dominate at either ends of the floor. And considering Hawes will never be that stupid to risk injuring himself ( lest losing his millions in salary from a career ending injury ), it would be quite a gamble to overpay him.
The kid is smart. I really think Hawes will never exert his maximum effort in games to ensure his longevity. It almost always showed in his game the past 2 years.
IMO, this is too high considering I agree with you that Hawes does a lot of things well, but doesn't really dominate at either ends of the floor. And considering Hawes will never be that stupid to risk injuring himself ( lest losing his millions in salary from a career ending injury ), it would be quite a gamble to overpay him.
The kid is smart. I really think Hawes will never exert his maximum effort in games to ensure his longevity. It almost always showed in his game the past 2 years.
err... Ray Allen and Redd are both FANTASTIC shooters, and as much as I love KMart, he is not close to them. Redd was a fantastic defender early in his career too, and Allen is arguably the greatest shooter in NBA history... both have been healthy in their careers too (short of Redd's ACL, but that is a freak accident and not a showing of how healthy a player is... you can tear one just by planting your knee wrong) To pay a player 12.9 million is ridicilous if he is as one sided as Martin is... especially since he has not been healthy for a while now. If Martin stays on the current path, he will be overpaid at the end of his contract. As of right now... I won't lose sleep over it once I look at some other ones around the leauge.
K
WHAT????????
Redd a fantastic defender?????? I'm calling B.S.
Michael Redd is at LEAST as one sided as Martin is. They are almost interchangeable. And Allen isn't much better as far as other stats. Allen plays better defense than either Martin or Redd.
Compare the stats:
Martin:
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=MARTIKE02
Redd:
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=REDDMI01
Allen:
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ALLENRA02
And Martin is only going into his 6th year and has some pretty admirable offensive stats vs. the other two.
Redd a fantastic defender?????? I'm calling B.S.
Michael Redd is at LEAST as one sided as Martin is. They are almost interchangeable. And Allen isn't much better as far as other stats. Allen plays better defense than either Martin or Redd.
Compare the stats:
Martin:
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=MARTIKE02
Redd:
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=REDDMI01
Allen:
http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ALLENRA02
And Martin is only going into his 6th year and has some pretty admirable offensive stats vs. the other two.
read my post please. WAS a fantastic defender. That was his calling card out of college. I was stating credentials. With all due respect, if you gave anybody here, anybody, to choose from those 3 players in their prime (which is where Martin is now, and will be for next 3-4 years), who would they choose? I would say toss up is between Martin and Redd, but I believe Redd is a better shooter and a better defender (the latter not saying much but still...) Martin has had problems staying healthy, and does NOTHING besides score. Redd at least has a pedigree, Martin has a very short span that we can gauge him on, but he has improved drastically. If he keeps improving and stays healthy, I don't think he's overpaid, and I would put him above Redd. If he keeps missing time and keeps just shooting jumpshots, it's a terrible deal. I don't know if it's because of the injuries or burden nof carrying the team offensively, he has shied away from contact almost completely and relies only on the jumpshot, which, unless it's set or in transition, is not getting released (off the dribble is not one of his strenghts)
so... relax, [Tony M] Take it easy [/Tony M]... I like Martin, just not 12 Million like. I personally don't like either of the 3 for that amount, but if you think Allen and Martin are same based on those stats, you are certifiable.
BTW... not sure how I hijacked this to COMPLETELY go away from the Hawes thing, so to steer us back...
Servicable big men are not everywhere, and a good fundamental center is hard to find. However, Hawes does have some major inury history, be it a while back, and big men do not age gracefully, especially with knee damage. Also, he seems to be more of the jumpshooting mold rather than the bang down low mold, and that's now what I prefer. I would wait one more year to see how he develops, or maybe less than that... the training staff can gauge better than rest of leauge since they see him in practice. If he stays healthy and shows a propensity to rebound and spend his time exclusively in the paint, I'm all for extention.
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K
Fixed.
Also, to support my post:
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Michael-Redd-4049/
And intimating that I'm certifiable? Priceless. KMA.
Also, to support my post:
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Michael-Redd-4049/
And intimating that I'm certifiable? Priceless. KMA.
Then it's matter of opinion. I would take both Redd and Allen over Martin. Age has sapped a lot from the first two guys, but in their primes they were, and again, at least in my opinion, better. I've watched Redd extensively in college - your post of "expert diagnosis" does not really sway my opinion one way or the other - when he was drafted he was drafted for his D. IHOP.
Sac - correct, he is paid less, althought not sure what that has to do with my argument... he should be paid less, as he has only "proven" his abilities in a short span - he has not earned a huge contract. But like I said, I hate how much Allen and Redd are getting paid - even though Allen's clutch shooting might at least a little justify it in basketball terms. One thing I do love about Martin is his efficiency. However, I hate his game lately. Again, I don't know if it's because of injury, but he doesn't look to finish at the rim, he just goes for contact/jumpshot - not my sort of player, but he at least was damn effective with it.
Sac - correct, he is paid less, althought not sure what that has to do with my argument... he should be paid less, as he has only "proven" his abilities in a short span - he has not earned a huge contract. But like I said, I hate how much Allen and Redd are getting paid - even though Allen's clutch shooting might at least a little justify it in basketball terms. One thing I do love about Martin is his efficiency. However, I hate his game lately. Again, I don't know if it's because of injury, but he doesn't look to finish at the rim, he just goes for contact/jumpshot - not my sort of player, but he at least was damn effective with it.
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K
I have yet to come out and say I would take Martin over Redd and Allen, or that I would take Allen over Redd and Martin, or that I would take Redd over Martin and Allen. In fact, I said Ray was a little better than Redd and Martin due to his defense being better.
As far as Redd and defense, well, he has always been chubby and not the quickest guy, looks like he might have been a sf in college that translated to a sg at the pro level. However, I can find nothing to support your claim of him being a defensive stud in college. And trust me, I have tried.
Actually, this article (http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Redd/Redd_bio.html) about halfway down notes that his defensive prowess was below NBA level.
As far as Redd and defense, well, he has always been chubby and not the quickest guy, looks like he might have been a sf in college that translated to a sg at the pro level. However, I can find nothing to support your claim of him being a defensive stud in college. And trust me, I have tried.
Actually, this article (http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Redd/Redd_bio.html) about halfway down notes that his defensive prowess was below NBA level.
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Generally, a player's "prime" is roughly 27 - 33 (give or take a year). Martin (27) is just entering his prime, while Redd (30) is right in the middle of his. These should be the best years of Redd's career, not the downside. It is a little early for that IMO.
As for Redd's defense, there is no doubt that he was known as a good defender coming out of college. However, that never really translated over to the NBA from what I have seen. I remember liking him a lot coming out of college and wondering why he fell as far as he did in the draft. While he has turned into a solid player, his career is very similar to Martin's. If he is your best player, then your team is going nowhere. If he is your second or third best player, then you probably have a pretty good team.
As for Redd's defense, there is no doubt that he was known as a good defender coming out of college. However, that never really translated over to the NBA from what I have seen. I remember liking him a lot coming out of college and wondering why he fell as far as he did in the draft. While he has turned into a solid player, his career is very similar to Martin's. If he is your best player, then your team is going nowhere. If he is your second or third best player, then you probably have a pretty good team.
Ever heard the term "market value". History shows that comparable players have typically made much, much more money. If you're looking for anything other than an "overpaid" player in the NBA you'd have better luck finding bigfoot taking a dump in the woods. So, as a result, all you can do is compare an apple with the other apples. In doing so you can clearly see Kevin makes far less and therefor in comparison is what one could consider a steal contractually.