The only thing I wanted to see when I watched Griffin play was, well, to watch Griffin play. I didn't have a preconceived notion one way or the other. I saw a Utah center basically make him a non-entity on the floor. I saw a Texas center that could guard him off the dribble. I didn't see him as a defensive force. I saw him as a guy who works very hard (a positive) and who is very strong because of his weight lifting. That strength helps him a lot in college, but his lack of quicks off the dribble is going to limit his ceiling in the pros. On defense, he looks small at times in college; he's going to look even smaller in the NBA.
Griffin or Thompson
- Thread starter rainmaker
- Start date
Blake is more explosive than JT right now. However, he has less wear on his body than JT. Some of his moves are downright nasty for a big man though. Great body control and strenght. He needs to develop a J quick to play the 3 though. Otherwise he's a stronger, more athletic David Lee. Very very good player but not worth a #1.
Yeah, I knew the date of the article. Unfortunately a lot of these sites don't update very often. My reason for posting the article was due to the questions surrounding his athletisism. As for his length, height, etc. I just don't comment on that until the pre-draft camp. Its very hard on television to tell for sure. So I'd rather not speculate, and just wait for the facts. By the way. He is the recepient of many alley opp plays. As a matter of fact, there's a series of alley opps on youtube by him.
As far as his defense, its a work in progress, if its a work at all. Thats not unusual. Its rare for a player to come out of college and be considered a good defender. When it does happen, said player is ususally not a very good offensive player. There's just too much zone played in college, and a lot of players think they can just get by on their athletisism.
As far as his defense, its a work in progress, if its a work at all. Thats not unusual. Its rare for a player to come out of college and be considered a good defender. When it does happen, said player is ususally not a very good offensive player. There's just too much zone played in college, and a lot of players think they can just get by on their athletisism.
As I pointed out in another thread. 90% of all the powerforwards in the NBA are 6'9" and under without shoes. Dwight Howard is 6'9" without shoes. I'm amazed how Greene has grown from 6'8.25 without shoes to 6'10". If Griffin ends up being 6'7" without shoes, then I'll agee that he's undersized. If he ends up being 6'8" or taller without shoes, then he's just as tall as all the rest of the powerforwards in the league. We either live in the real world or we live in an imaginary one. In the real world these players aren't as tall as advertised. Yeah, there are exceptions, but by and large most of the heights are exaggerated.
Kevin Love, David Lee, and Carlos Boozer are all 6'7.50" without shoes, and Paul Milsap is 6'6.25" without shoes. So unless Griffin ends up being 6' 5" without shoes, I doubt he'll be a man amongst giants in the NBA. As a matter of fact, if he ends up being 6'9" without shoes, he will be the giant.
It's not just the height; it's the overall length, which includes the arm length. When I compare to Griffin to Greene, Greene's length looks at least three inches taller. Granted, that's my "eyeball test", but after seeing thousands, of games over the years the "eyeball test" is probably pretty good.
Griffin has the arm length of Peja, which is not a compliment. He's not a very good post up player, and he's not a very good post defender.
Griffin is a "safe" pick. He will be a nice player to have on the roster. He'll be the "rebound guy." It's just that, in my opinion, he doesn't have the capacity to be a star. At the end of the day, it wouldn't surprise me if four or five players in this draft end up better than Griffin. My guess is that Petrie isn't enthralled by him either. I have my doubts that he would pick him #1 if he had the #1 pick. The more I think about it, the more I think the Kings management might be better served to have a lower draft pick. Then they could more easily pick the player with the higher ceiling, but who is more raw basketball-wise. Maybe the #1 pick isn't so great after all....
Griffin has the arm length of Peja, which is not a compliment. He's not a very good post up player, and he's not a very good post defender. Griffin is a "safe" pick. He will be a nice player to have on the roster. He'll be the "rebound guy." It's just that, in my opinion, he doesn't have the capacity to be a star. At the end of the day, it wouldn't surprise me if four or five players in this draft end up better than Griffin. My guess is that Petrie isn't enthralled by him either. I have my doubts that he would pick him #1 if he had the #1 pick. The more I think about it, the more I think the Kings management might be better served to have a lower draft pick. Then they could more easily pick the player with the higher ceiling, but who is more raw basketball-wise. Maybe the #1 pick isn't so great after all....
It's not just the height; it's the overall length, which includes the arm length. When I compare to Griffin to Greene, Greene's length looks at least three inches taller. Granted, that's my "eyeball test", but after seeing thousands, of games over the years the "eyeball test" is probably pretty good. Griffin has the arm length of Peja, which is not a compliment. He's not a very good post up player, and he's not a very good post defender.
Griffin is a "safe" pick. He will be a nice player to have on the roster. He'll be the "rebound guy." It's just that, in my opinion, he doesn't have the capacity to be a star. At the end of the day, it wouldn't surprise me if four or five players in this draft end up better than Griffin. My guess is that Petrie isn't enthralled by him either. I have my doubts that he would pick him #1 if he had the #1 pick. The more I think about it, the more I think the Kings management might be better served to have a lower draft pick. Then they could more easily pick the player with the higher ceiling, but who is more raw basketball-wise. Maybe the #1 pick isn't so great after all....
Griffin has the arm length of Peja, which is not a compliment. He's not a very good post up player, and he's not a very good post defender. Griffin is a "safe" pick. He will be a nice player to have on the roster. He'll be the "rebound guy." It's just that, in my opinion, he doesn't have the capacity to be a star. At the end of the day, it wouldn't surprise me if four or five players in this draft end up better than Griffin. My guess is that Petrie isn't enthralled by him either. I have my doubts that he would pick him #1 if he had the #1 pick. The more I think about it, the more I think the Kings management might be better served to have a lower draft pick. Then they could more easily pick the player with the higher ceiling, but who is more raw basketball-wise. Maybe the #1 pick isn't so great after all....
Stats here:http://www.draftexpress.com/article...Weights,-Wingspans-and-Standing-Reaches-1348/
So, if we go by the numbers only, Williams should be just as good as Aldridge, Right? Don't tell me how tall a guy is because no one shots with the top of their head. And, don't tell me their wing span because the width of your chest doesn't determine how high you can elevate. When Griffin goes up to rebound or dunk, he can get his elbows above the rim, and that's what really counts, and not the length of his arms. Plus he has enough upper body strength to keep from being pushed around.
The other offensive and defensive skills will develop with training and time. In the mean time, I'll be glad to just watch him rebound & dunk. And, as far as him not having the capacity to be a star, I think your in the minority with that opinion.
I could care less about stats. Griffin plays small on defense. Do you have a stat about that? Do you see him making much of an impact on D? I don't, although I will give you that defensive rebounding could be considered D, so I'd give him credit for that. Regarding jumping, who's the kid that was drafted last year that everybody just loved? - the kid who had a very high verticle, can't remember his name, drafted in the first round, didn't like him, still don't like him, and he hasn't done squat in his rookie year. And upper body strength doesn't wow me either. That's exactly how players get overated in college, with their upper body strength. Quickness is >>> upper body strength. You can develop upper body strength by weight lifting after you get drafted, but with quickness you've either got it or you don't. Lastly, I could give a whoop about being in the minority.
I cant wait for Griffin to prove some of you guys wrong ..
He's Boozer with a higher ceiling .. dude is 19! 22pts 14board ...
And to kingster .. if your talking about Joe Alexander, you cant compare him to Griffin ... they are totally different. And no upper body strength? are you kidding me? he is a tank.
Not to mention he is REALLY quick for his size.. super explosive ..
He's Boozer with a higher ceiling .. dude is 19! 22pts 14board ...
And to kingster .. if your talking about Joe Alexander, you cant compare him to Griffin ... they are totally different. And no upper body strength? are you kidding me? he is a tank.
Not to mention he is REALLY quick for his size.. super explosive ..
You don't care about stats, until of course they back up what your saying. But in this case its all right to ignore them. The dude scored 20 plus points and grabbed 20 plus rebounds 13 times this year. He runs the floor very well. He has good to great leaping ability. He's extremely strong. I've seen him power the ball through a shot blocker and into the basket. Is he a polished player? NO! But he accomplished all this without being a polished player. So the question is, how good can he be after a few years in the league? His weaknesses are defense and passing ability. As I pointed out earlier, its rare for college players to come into the NBA and be great defensive players, for a variety of reasons. The zone being the main culprit.
Anyone who thinks Thabeet is going to come into the league and suddenly be a great defensive force is kidding themselves. But given a few years in the league, he may well become one. He has god given skills that are rare in a man his size. But you still have to learn how to play NBA defense, which is team defense. Put Thabeet on a team with bad perimiter team defense, and the dude will be in foul trouble every game. It won't be all his fault, but it won't matter, he'll be the one with the fouls.
I'm not going to sit here and tell anyone that Thabeet is going to be a bust or that he's the next great defensive player in the league. Ditto for Griffin. But there's a reason both are ranked at the top of the draft. In most peoples eyes, they have the best chance to suceed. The scouts aren't always right. AKA Sheldon Williams. I never liked Williams, and certainly wouldn't have drafted him that high. I always felt that he was vertically challenged, or perhaps a better way is gravity challenged. By the same token, who thought that Paul Millsap was going to be as good as he is? Its an imperfect science and purely subjective. Sometimes the gold medal goes to the wrong person. Its a lot easier when there's a Lebron James sitting there.
Anyone who thinks Thabeet is going to come into the league and suddenly be a great defensive force is kidding themselves. But given a few years in the league, he may well become one. He has god given skills that are rare in a man his size. But you still have to learn how to play NBA defense, which is team defense. Put Thabeet on a team with bad perimiter team defense, and the dude will be in foul trouble every game. It won't be all his fault, but it won't matter, he'll be the one with the fouls.
I'm not going to sit here and tell anyone that Thabeet is going to be a bust or that he's the next great defensive player in the league. Ditto for Griffin. But there's a reason both are ranked at the top of the draft. In most peoples eyes, they have the best chance to suceed. The scouts aren't always right. AKA Sheldon Williams. I never liked Williams, and certainly wouldn't have drafted him that high. I always felt that he was vertically challenged, or perhaps a better way is gravity challenged. By the same token, who thought that Paul Millsap was going to be as good as he is? Its an imperfect science and purely subjective. Sometimes the gold medal goes to the wrong person. Its a lot easier when there's a Lebron James sitting there.
I don't know if at this point you can compare him to Boozer. Boozer is much more physical on defense and has a better jumper. But Griffin is only 19 so who knows. I think he could be great but its just too early to tell.
The tournament will be big for Griffin. If he can put the same numbers in the tournament that he has put up during the regular season, that will mean a lot more. I am interested to see if he can be more of a physical presence on defense, and if is level of play rises during the tournament. This was the time last year Rose really took off and impressed, and I want to see if Griffin is capable of doing the same thing.
The tournament will be big for Griffin. If he can put the same numbers in the tournament that he has put up during the regular season, that will mean a lot more. I am interested to see if he can be more of a physical presence on defense, and if is level of play rises during the tournament. This was the time last year Rose really took off and impressed, and I want to see if Griffin is capable of doing the same thing.
I don't care about his lack of polish. I'm looking at him, like everyone else, as a three year project. His weakness are lack of quickness, fluidity, and wingspan. Hence, in my view, his limited ceiling, which is not performance, but potential And like I've said, Griffin will be a solid contributor to a team, but I feel sorry for the team (and him) that would choose him as #1. Those great expectations will not be met in my opinion. Obviously, the consensus totally goes against me. So be it. I'm not going to bow down to the consensus over my own impressions.
Stats are just a starting point, and when it comes to measurements like wing-span, they may be an explanation for a player's lack of impressiveness on defense. There are three explanations that I can find for his "small" defensive performance/potential: 1) lack of very good horizontal quickness, 2) lack of quick jumping ability, and 3) short wing span. (I think we can both agree he has good strength). If you have all three of those, then you are a terror on defense. If you don't have all three, then you'll be mediocre at best. I don't think he has enough of #1 or #2 to compensate for #3.
I'll be looking at him again in the NCAAs, but until then I give a big weighting to first impressions (people tend to overthink these things).
Stats are just a starting point, and when it comes to measurements like wing-span, they may be an explanation for a player's lack of impressiveness on defense. There are three explanations that I can find for his "small" defensive performance/potential: 1) lack of very good horizontal quickness, 2) lack of quick jumping ability, and 3) short wing span. (I think we can both agree he has good strength). If you have all three of those, then you are a terror on defense. If you don't have all three, then you'll be mediocre at best. I don't think he has enough of #1 or #2 to compensate for #3.
I'll be looking at him again in the NCAAs, but until then I give a big weighting to first impressions (people tend to overthink these things).
Greene should be involved in the discussion. He has more raw talent than Thompson, Hawes or Griffin. If he can get a good coach, to/and work his rear off, he'll be better than all three. So, if you draft Griffin, you would have four guys who would/could play the 4 position. Even a hardened BPA guy like myself can see the limits of that rule...
I think that Pete Carril is a pretty good coach and probably more than willing to work his butt off, if Greene is willing. Look, I like Greene. I was happy when we aquired him, but I also think he's a SF. One that can play some PF at times, but mostly a SF.
If we draft Griffin, and he seems to be the consensus best player in the draft by most NBA scouts, I honestly don't care if he ever playes a game for us. To me he's just a bargining chip to be used the best way possible. As I said before, I'm sure Oklahoma would love to have him. Maybe we could do a two for one deal in draft picks with them? Who Knows?
As far as his wingspan or height, I just refuse to argue about something without the facts available. Lets just wait for the pre-draft camp and see what the results are. Otherwise were just exchanging hot air.
If we draft Griffin, and he seems to be the consensus best player in the draft by most NBA scouts, I honestly don't care if he ever playes a game for us. To me he's just a bargining chip to be used the best way possible. As I said before, I'm sure Oklahoma would love to have him. Maybe we could do a two for one deal in draft picks with them? Who Knows?
As far as his wingspan or height, I just refuse to argue about something without the facts available. Lets just wait for the pre-draft camp and see what the results are. Otherwise were just exchanging hot air.
We agree on the OKC deal. That's the best scenario possible. But it's a bad situation when you draft a guy to have just as a bargaining chip down the line, especially when one or two guys on your roster could be better than him. Someone is going to waste away on the bench, like a wasting asset. Not good.
As for the pre-draft camp, I'd rather just look at the games. I want to see another coach put his center on Griffin and see what happens. Is it going to be 3rd time's the charm?
As for the pre-draft camp, I'd rather just look at the games. I want to see another coach put his center on Griffin and see what happens. Is it going to be 3rd time's the charm?
From what I understand there won't be any games this year at the camp, if thats what your talking about. Its too bad because I enjoyed watching them. I guess the NBA was disappointed that none of the top picks participated in the games and instead most of them oppted for the individual workouts.
A couple of final notes. I doubt Griffin would waste away on the bench. Anyway you look at it, you still need a three man rotation at the Center and PF position. As far as defending Griffin with a center. Probably something that wouldn't happen too often in the NBA. Not unless you want to put your PF on our center.
If Rubio declares, I pick him, or I trade down one or two slots and pick him (maybe pick up a low first rounder or dump a contract in the process). I think potential wise, Rubio and Griffin are similar. But because bigmen tend to have a bigger impact Griffin will never be a elite PF, Rubio has a very good chance of being a top 5 PG.
If we didn't have Thompson, I would still lean slightly towards Rubio, but since we do have him, I am clearly in favor of Rubio. Hell I don't even mind if we draft him this year, and let him stay in Europe for another year.
I'd just watch more Derrick Rose in the meantime.
If we didn't have Thompson, I would still lean slightly towards Rubio, but since we do have him, I am clearly in favor of Rubio. Hell I don't even mind if we draft him this year, and let him stay in Europe for another year.
I'd just watch more Derrick Rose in the meantime.
I think Greene is a better defender right now than Griffin at the pf. Unlike Griffin, he can come from the weak side and block shots. Next year, he'll be even better presumably. Griffin is the better rebounder. Maybe, maybe he's better offensively. But Greene is more athletic. So you have pluses and minuses for each of them with no clear cut winner. That leaves a free for all between Thompson, Greene and Griffin. Somebody isn't going to be playing much. That's a wasting asset. Forget about Greene at the 3 next year. He's just not there yet. He's better at the 4.
Regarding your other point, I don't think it would be difficult finding another long body on the bench to guard Griffin. It's not like teams don't have back-up centers.
Regarding your other point, I don't think it would be difficult finding another long body on the bench to guard Griffin. It's not like teams don't have back-up centers.
Obviously. Remember, this draft is weak. It's not like I'm comparing him to David Robinson or Tim Duncan. You have to ask yourself, where would Griffin have been drafted, say, two years ago, in the Hawes draft. I bet he wouldn't have made the top 10. And he might not have made the top 10 last year either. So it's not as farfetched as you might believe.
So, Thompson, who was drafted at #12 is significantly worse than Griffin? Hardly. What's farfetched is to believe with certainty that Griffin is better than Thompson. In any case, at the end of the day, if you draft Griffin someone out of the group of Griffin, Thomson and Greene is going to be getting garbage minutes. Someone is going to be a wasting asset sitting on the bench.
Are you serious? in the '07 draft you would have taken jeff green, yi, corey brewer, brandan wright, noah, and spencer before griffin? thats wild.
Furthermore, you would have taken kevin love, gallinari, eric gordon, and joe alexander before griffin? im glad you're not running the team!
But in all seriousness, he would have been a top 5 pick in both of those very strong drafts.
Furthermore, you would have taken kevin love, gallinari, eric gordon, and joe alexander before griffin? im glad you're not running the team!
But in all seriousness, he would have been a top 5 pick in both of those very strong drafts.
Well, first off I never said that. I only stated where Griffin's draft stock was last year before it turned out he did not declare. Keep in mind that Thompson's draft stock was significantly LOWER than #12 last year. A lot of people thought he was late teens/early 20s and said taking him at #12 was a serious stretch. Some of that would have to do with his coming from a small school. Either way, draft stock is different than career value. And Griffin's DRAFT STOCK was significantly better than Thompson's last year.
That said, if I were forced to choose, I think that Griffin will have a better career than Thompson. But that's far from certain at this point.
That said, if I were forced to choose, I think that Griffin will have a better career than Thompson. But that's far from certain at this point.
You're right, sir. You did not. Apologies. The distinction between draft stock and who will in fact have the better career is an important one. I fall on the other side of the argument with respect to Thompson & Griffin - if I had to bet, I'd bet Thompson has a better career. But a reasonable man could go either way. The more I think about this draft, there is so little that separates the players in ability (maybe nothing), that this is one case where you can throw BPA out the window because there is no clear cut BPA. If that's the case, then you might as well draft for position, and that means forget about Griffin. We already have one, if not two, power forwards.
Griffin opened a lot of eyes this year with not just gaudy stats (how many 20-20 games?) but with consistency too. His athleticism is one thing that raised his stock - I could not believe how many people question that aspect of his game.
Be careful though, hindsight is always 20-20. Love is playing awesome, and nobody thought that Brook Lopez would be playing as well as he is. Gordon is also playing very very well.
His only problem is the size issue - will he be strong enough to play the PF position? Unless you are playing for the Suns or the Knicks, you will not be able to utilize the fact that you are faster/more agile than your opponent. If you put him at the 3, will he be able to stay with the quicker, faster players like Pierce, LBJ, etc...I know they are the exception rather then the rule but that's what you have to have as the ceiling for expectations.
Be careful though, hindsight is always 20-20. Love is playing awesome, and nobody thought that Brook Lopez would be playing as well as he is. Gordon is also playing very very well.
His only problem is the size issue - will he be strong enough to play the PF position? Unless you are playing for the Suns or the Knicks, you will not be able to utilize the fact that you are faster/more agile than your opponent. If you put him at the 3, will he be able to stay with the quicker, faster players like Pierce, LBJ, etc...I know they are the exception rather then the rule but that's what you have to have as the ceiling for expectations.
I think Griffin is being underrated by most people.. particularly us Kings fans. I mean he has the strength, athleticism, and decent enough speed to be a really good player.. the only question is his height and no one really knows what his true height is yet. I'm willing to bet that he is at least 6'9" with shoes and that is pretty much on par with most power forwards in the NBA. I guess as long as he isn't something like 6'7" now that is what i call undersize.
well first of all, as they were talking about above, i was saying that griffin would be drafted above those guys if he were in their drafts given the prospect that he currently is. but regardless of that, id still say griffin will be much better than gordon or love. (i didnt mention brook lopez for a reason). Will he be STRONG enough? have you seen the kid? he is a specimen, and tries harder than everyone on the court. put hansbroghs motor with amares athleticism and you get blake's raw tools.