and with the #1 pick in the 2009 NBA draft the Kings select...
- Thread starter RiffRaff
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He doesn't have the coordination or the offensive game, but Thabeet's an inch taller and can jump higher. It's a stretch. Not saying it's definitely going to happen, or that it will probably happen, and heck, there are parts of Thabeet's game that scare me. But I also don't think it's "outrageous" for a BCS.
Mutombo was very explosive and I'll take him an inch shorter any day because he was not lacking in length by any means and I'll take the better athlete, which is undoubtedly Mutombo. Mutombo had better lower body strength as well, he was just much built better physically than Thabeet. Thabeet may be a very good athlete for his size, but I can't honestly say I expect him to keep that athleticism for nearly as long as Mutombo did with his awkward frame. Taller Dalembert is his BCS.
I can agree with most of that, and Thabeet also doesn't have Mutombo's insanely long arms. Still think his ceiling is higher than "taller Dalembert," and his averages are similar to Mutombo's as a junior yet he's 3 years younger. But I don't disagree that Mutombo had some special gifts that Thabeet doesn't. Agree that Mutombo had a better build, but still think Thabeet is the more explosive one. We'll see.
Syracuse/Notre Dame - Watching Jonny Flynn again, and it's hard not to like his raw talent. He can shoot, he makes some really impressive passes, he's athletic... but he's got some Jason Williams in him, and he does stupid things like pulls up from three on fast breaks and tries to do too much sometimes threading the needle. I'm also a little concerned that he's not quite as lightning quick or quite a good enough shooter as he needs to be to make up for his lack of size.
Webber wasn't all that athletic. I don't remember him as being a high over the rim player or especially quick with the dribble and he didn't finish the break as well as JT. He was long & strong with great hands, dunk from under the basket without much elevation. Monroe's a freshman and will bulk up in time. Until then he has all the ballhandling skills and outside shot of Hawes, the rest should come. So, who else in the draft, could be compared with Weber?
Whoa there, you must have only seen him post-injury or something. I'm sure there are any number of people on this board who would be happy to point you to the proper YouTube video to set you straight.
There hasn't been a player like Webber since Webber blew out his knee, and there certainly isn't one in this draft, just one pale imitation.
There hasn't been a player like Webber since Webber blew out his knee, and there certainly isn't one in this draft, just one pale imitation.
Webb had good hops, he wasn't a prime time leaper or anything, but he elevated very quickly and got up high. Relative to his strength he was a very good athlete. Monroe doesn't have the same explosiveness or elevation, nor the powerful aggressiveness attacking the rim. On the other hand though I think he moves much quicker on the ball than Webber did; he's more of a face-up guy than Webber. One thing is for sure and that is Monroe is an elite passer/facilitator from the high post, I know we're all probably sick of hearing about how great a passer a big is over the years considering but it still counts for quite a bit. He makes such quick decisions with the ball, it's amazing. I think he has the athleticism, frame, IQ, and length to be a solid to very good defender; he'll never be an anchor to a defense, that's not his game but a guy who can play smart D on his man and get deflections. Does this mean he's our guy? I don't know, it depends who is on the board. I certainly think he can be a borderline all-star if not better.
Duke/Georgetown - Tale of two sides of the court yet again for Greg Monroe. On offense he looked right at home among Duke's little men and he was impressive running the floor, pulling up off the trouble, catching tough passes inside and finishing well. He did get careless driving and picked up two Dukie offensive fouls. I'm completely blown away that he didn't get the ball down low more given that Singler was Duke's tallest guy on the court most of the time, but Monroe was mostly lined up out on the peremiter and never really showed much interest in posting up. On defense Georgetown was running a soft matchup zone and Monroe was basically a nonfactor in the middle and on the glass save for a few plays very late in the game -- he hardly goes to the ball and chooses his positioning poorly for a guy so otherwise smart. He also got really tired pretty quickly, but most bigs would running around with a bunch of guards and small forwards.
Another team, another time, Monroe might be who I'd be crossing my fingers for. His offensive talent is really special. Still don't think he's shown hardly any potential on the glass or on D, and I just don't know if I can bear any more soft bigs so soon after the post-injury Webber/Brad Miller/Shareef/KT/Moore era.
Summers had his usual game of spotting up from 3 and finishing specatcularly around the rim with nothing in between.
Dunleavy III played a really scrappy game going for loose balls, rebounding, and getting garbage points.
And wow is Gerald Henderson athletic. He had a pretty sweet alley-oop in the first half and a sendback on Monroe in the second. Yet another semi-promising-but-who-knows-for-sure 6'4" shooting guard in this draft.
Another team, another time, Monroe might be who I'd be crossing my fingers for. His offensive talent is really special. Still don't think he's shown hardly any potential on the glass or on D, and I just don't know if I can bear any more soft bigs so soon after the post-injury Webber/Brad Miller/Shareef/KT/Moore era.
Summers had his usual game of spotting up from 3 and finishing specatcularly around the rim with nothing in between.
Dunleavy III played a really scrappy game going for loose balls, rebounding, and getting garbage points.
And wow is Gerald Henderson athletic. He had a pretty sweet alley-oop in the first half and a sendback on Monroe in the second. Yet another semi-promising-but-who-knows-for-sure 6'4" shooting guard in this draft.
Seems like we are in agreement. If you put a gun to my head right now I'd take Hill over Monroe. Hill definitely has an offensive game. He has a jump hook shot and he can hit an open 15-17 jump shot. Thabeet is a major risk that I doubt Petrie would take if the pick falls in the top 10 (I wouldn't either).
Terrence Williams
Ok, I've seen this guy play three times now. Each time I tried not to like him. I've rationalized that his shooting percentage isn't that high, I've told myself that we already have Salmons and Cisco and we don't need a 6'6" guy. Another wing player.
Sorry, I can't help it. I want to see Terrence Williams in a Kings uniform. Other than Teague or maybe Hill there isn't another player out there I've seen that I want more than Williams. I think the guy can play point, two guard, or the three. And we don't have a player as a guard or a wing that can come close to rebounding with this guy. He's the anti-soft player that the Kings need. Athletic as hell - fast, quick, leaper. Makes great passes, good assist stats, steals the ball, quick to the ball. Talk about a stat stuffer. This guy is it. I like Cisco because of his grit and his play, but Williams is better. His ceiling is a level higher than Cisco. I think he can also be a level above Salmons. And I know that he doesn't require the ball a lot to be effective. I'm not saying to pick him at #4, but if the guy is available at #15, I'd grab him.
Ok, I've seen this guy play three times now. Each time I tried not to like him. I've rationalized that his shooting percentage isn't that high, I've told myself that we already have Salmons and Cisco and we don't need a 6'6" guy. Another wing player.
Sorry, I can't help it. I want to see Terrence Williams in a Kings uniform. Other than Teague or maybe Hill there isn't another player out there I've seen that I want more than Williams. I think the guy can play point, two guard, or the three. And we don't have a player as a guard or a wing that can come close to rebounding with this guy. He's the anti-soft player that the Kings need. Athletic as hell - fast, quick, leaper. Makes great passes, good assist stats, steals the ball, quick to the ball. Talk about a stat stuffer. This guy is it. I like Cisco because of his grit and his play, but Williams is better. His ceiling is a level higher than Cisco. I think he can also be a level above Salmons. And I know that he doesn't require the ball a lot to be effective. I'm not saying to pick him at #4, but if the guy is available at #15, I'd grab him.
UCLA/ASU - My DVR missed the first 5 minutes of this one, looks like ASU came out strong and at 14:00 Harden was clearly feeling it, with the highlights showing some muscle over Holiday and some shooting over Shipp.
Holiday showed some tough D on Harden, he can really stay in front of guys. In the 2nd half Harden started working Holiday with his smarts and strength and Holiday fell asleep on Harden's go-ahead drive in OT, but still, Holiday played him tough, particularly for the bulk of OT. Unfortunately, Holiday was almost a complete zero on offense. He had a some really nice passes and I like how unselfish he is, but he showed little scoring ability at all. Particularly when he got the ball and needed to get a shot late in the shot clock he looked completely lost, dribbling around unable to penetrate and twice just handed it off to someone who could do nothing with the ball with a second left. He almost never penetrates, and when he did in overtime he dribbled it off his foot. His handle is shaky. I've now watched him four times this season, and other than some shooting against USC he hasn't done hardly anything at all on offense, and Howland had him on the bench down the stretch in regulation. I'm sorry, this guy has to show something on offense before he can justify a Top 5 pick. Either his first step isn't that quick or he just doesn't feel comfortable penetrating with the ball. Dunno. He could very well be a player someday, but right now IMO he's a major risk to draft as a point guard. We'll see he does as the season goes on.
Harden is a smart player. He was too strong/crafty for Holiday when it mattered, and Shipp wasn't playing him tight. Still still don't know if he has the athleticism against the defenders who are bigger/more athletic than him.
Collison had a really tough night shooting and came up short on some decent looks in crunch time, including the potential game winner in regulation, and did a really bad job of getting a shot in OT.
Pendergraph was extremely tough.
Holiday showed some tough D on Harden, he can really stay in front of guys. In the 2nd half Harden started working Holiday with his smarts and strength and Holiday fell asleep on Harden's go-ahead drive in OT, but still, Holiday played him tough, particularly for the bulk of OT. Unfortunately, Holiday was almost a complete zero on offense. He had a some really nice passes and I like how unselfish he is, but he showed little scoring ability at all. Particularly when he got the ball and needed to get a shot late in the shot clock he looked completely lost, dribbling around unable to penetrate and twice just handed it off to someone who could do nothing with the ball with a second left. He almost never penetrates, and when he did in overtime he dribbled it off his foot. His handle is shaky. I've now watched him four times this season, and other than some shooting against USC he hasn't done hardly anything at all on offense, and Howland had him on the bench down the stretch in regulation. I'm sorry, this guy has to show something on offense before he can justify a Top 5 pick. Either his first step isn't that quick or he just doesn't feel comfortable penetrating with the ball. Dunno. He could very well be a player someday, but right now IMO he's a major risk to draft as a point guard. We'll see he does as the season goes on.
Harden is a smart player. He was too strong/crafty for Holiday when it mattered, and Shipp wasn't playing him tight. Still still don't know if he has the athleticism against the defenders who are bigger/more athletic than him.
Collison had a really tough night shooting and came up short on some decent looks in crunch time, including the potential game winner in regulation, and did a really bad job of getting a shot in OT.
Pendergraph was extremely tough.
Holiday has yet to really put together his game yet. I like him because I know of the abilities he has but has yet to show in full stride. His problem is he too passive with the ball, I think he is tentative about being a freshman in Howland's system and playing the off guard; I think he's afraid to make a mistake. I think if he was given the PG outright we'd see a more confident and aggressive Jrue Holiday. At this point though yes, he's got raw ability but he is a risky upside pick. He doesn't have great first step quickness, that being said I see his upside as a poor man's Wade. I think he has all the ability needed to be a very good PG in the NBA, but he has yet to really prove it, so he is risky. Hopefully he shows more as the season goes along, if he doesn't then I'm hoping he stays in another year and we have a shot at him in 2010.
I agree on Holliday. I really really want to like him because of the type of player he is and his strong D. However, watching him on O is very concerning. Vlade is right that he may still be playing to passive; however, he is having trouble creating shots. Even when Westbrook was raw he would always be able to create some sort of seperation but was prone to boneheaded plays. Holliday is a smart player and he can hit set jumpers, but I am can't really justify using a Top 5 pick on him at this point.
I'm banking on him improving his shooting. I've carefully looked at his shooting motion, and I think it's pretty darn good. I really think he'll continue to improve on it in the NBA. In the Pitt game he looked darn good, and he made big shots. Also, he's the type of guy who can get a shot whenever he wants it because he's so athletic. That's what I see - a guy who can get wherever he wants to on the floor. As he gets better at using that ability he's going to make more and more easy shots for himself. I really think this guy is going to flourish in the NBA; his game is more NBA than college, and in college he's darned good. Petino said he would have used him more at point, but they need him inside. He looks very comfortable in his ball handling. If you want to balance out the softer shooting players on this team, then this guy is it.
Yeah, Holliday has a ways to go. He really needs another year or two of college. If Harden could learn to go to his right he would have probably scored 35-40 points on UCLA. I'm just wondering though why he hasn't learned to go to his right. And how long it's going to take him to learn it? Figuring that out is out of my league, but if Petrie thinks that's not going to be an issue, then yeah, I think he's a top 5'er.
There really shouldn't be a reason that he can't create space, he has got the ball handling and the shooting ability, and good enough quickness to get by his defender. I think (and this is just me speculating) that he isn't confident enough to hold on to the ball and be determined to get by his man. I think he is playing it safe (taking set shots and driving only when it's easy) because he doesn't think he has earned the right to, he defers to Collison. Even though Howland should have already done this, I think he needs to give Holiday more time at the point and give him leadership responsibilities. He'll become a bigger threat come tourney time and he won't have to only rely on Collison.
Honestly I'm starting to question both his handle and his explosiveness. You see him on defense and you think, wow, this guy is quick. And he has some awesome lateral quickness that he uses to great effect on the defensive end, particularly for a freshman. But he ran a fast break today, and he looked like he was going to lose the ball at every step of the way. He finished the play with an assist, but like so many of his offensive plays, it was ugly. Then he had the play where he drove and just dribble off his foot -- unforced errors. That's his handle.
And he just doesn't show any makings of a first step. He can't create separation. He can't create his own shot -- he can't even create a bad shot.
I just don't know that he's the athlete that he was sold to be. Maybe like you say he's just tentative on offense, and if that's the case it could explain some things, but I just haven't seen him done much at all. I'll keep an open mind though.
And he just doesn't show any makings of a first step. He can't create separation. He can't create his own shot -- he can't even create a bad shot.
I just don't know that he's the athlete that he was sold to be. Maybe like you say he's just tentative on offense, and if that's the case it could explain some things, but I just haven't seen him done much at all. I'll keep an open mind though.
Good game by Harden. I don't think there's any doubt that he can play in the NBA. The question is how good will he be? I've watched a lot of players that wern't elite athlete's have good or sometimes even great careers.
I honestly think that Holiday should stay in college another year. You see glimpses of what he can be, but only glimpses. I agree that it would be better if he were playing the point, and if he stays another year he probably will be.
I honestly think that Holiday should stay in college another year. You see glimpses of what he can be, but only glimpses. I agree that it would be better if he were playing the point, and if he stays another year he probably will be.