and with the #1 pick in the 2009 NBA draft the Kings select...

Georgia Tech/Duke:

Not so impressed with Gani Lawal. He's 6'9", tough, and runs the floor, but he looks like he's still learning how to play the game. Offensively he can't do very much at all, and the few shots he made looked like they were incredibly lucky to go in. Terrible free throw shooter. He's also not particularly explosive, but since he's strong and mobile and has good hands he's an extremely good rebounder. But he's such a long way off offensively, and since he lacks ideal size and athleticism, don't know how valuable he's going to be in the NBA. I could see him as a Reggie Evans type, but not much more.

And wow is Kyle Singler the second coming of Mike Dunleavy. If he had a famous dad he might go #3 in this draft.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
I think that's an exaggeration. He's not on the level of Paul or Parker, but he's definitely quick. He does sometimes have his hand out, but he doesn't push off. He dribbles a lot, but that's the offense. He's basically called upon to create the points, either passing or shooting.

I also think the slowness of his release is exaggerated. When he needs to get a shot off he gets it off, as he did on a play as the shot clock was coming down against USC -- he came off a screen and hit a tough jumper. It's kind of a funny motion, but we've seen that work before, haven't we?
Sure, and Martin can get away with it because of incredible speed and quickness. Collison is not in that time zone, so his release is going to hurt him more than Martin. I'm not saying he pushes off; I'm saying that it's a "tell" of his lack of separation. If you're a small guard in the NBA, you better be lightning quick in order to find space to shoot the ball. Collison isn't. And the offense isn't really dribbling the ball around. When Westbrook played pg he didn't dribble the ball around; he got into the offense and made things happen. Collison has to slow the game down for him to perform. In the NBA, that's not going to work. When Collison played against the athleticism of Memphis, his warts were exposed. If he had problems against Memphis, then he's definitely going to have problems in the NBA. Again, I wouldn't take him with Houston's #1.
 
Sure, and Martin can get away with it because of incredible speed and quickness. Collison is not in that time zone, so his release is going to hurt him more than Martin. I'm not saying he pushes off; I'm saying that it's a "tell" of his lack of separation. If you're a small guard in the NBA, you better be lightning quick in order to find space to shoot the ball. Collison isn't. And the offense isn't really dribbling the ball around. When Westbrook played pg he didn't dribble the ball around; he got into the offense and made things happen. Collison has to slow the game down for him to perform. In the NBA, that's not going to work. When Collison played against the athleticism of Memphis, his warts were exposed. If he had problems against Memphis, then he's definitely going to have problems in the NBA. Again, I wouldn't take him with Houston's #1.
I've made this distinction earlier in the thread, but yes, Westbrook was better at pushing things on the fast break. In the half-court though, slowing things down and getting a good shot is UCLA and Collison's game. And he's really, really good at that. He looks first to pass and if it's not there he shoots and normally makes it.

And I would actually argue he didn't have a problem with Memphis' athleticism in last year's tournament, he just missed a lot of shots. He got to the rim, he had clear looks, he was just off. Some of that was due to the fact that he's not a great finisher (but seems to be getting better), but he wasn't overwhelmed the way, say, DJ Augustin was taken completely off his game by Derreck Rose in the same tournament. I think Collison's more athletic than you give him credit for.
 
I've made this distinction earlier in the thread, but yes, Westbrook was better at pushing things on the fast break. In the half-court though, slowing things down and getting a good shot is UCLA and Collison's game. And he's really, really good at that. He looks first to pass and if it's not there he shoots and normally makes it.

And I would actually argue he didn't have a problem with Memphis' athleticism in last year's tournament, he just missed a lot of shots. He got to the rim, he had clear looks, he was just off. Some of that was due to the fact that he's not a great finisher (but seems to be getting better), but he wasn't overwhelmed the way, say, DJ Augustin was taken completely off his game by Derreck Rose in the same tournament. I think Collison's more athletic than you give him credit for.

I also think people really aren't giving enough consideration to the fact that Collison was playing hurt last season. There's a reason he already looks much better this year and he looked better as a sophmore. If he gets shut down in the tourney again, I will be more concerned, but last year we were only seeing Collison play at 75%.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
I've made this distinction earlier in the thread, but yes, Westbrook was better at pushing things on the fast break. In the half-court though, slowing things down and getting a good shot is UCLA and Collison's game. And he's really, really good at that. He looks first to pass and if it's not there he shoots and normally makes it.

And I would actually argue he didn't have a problem with Memphis' athleticism in last year's tournament, he just missed a lot of shots. He got to the rim, he had clear looks, he was just off. Some of that was due to the fact that he's not a great finisher (but seems to be getting better), but he wasn't overwhelmed the way, say, DJ Augustin was taken completely off his game by Derreck Rose in the same tournament. I think Collison's more athletic than you give him credit for.
Westbrook was better in the set up offense, not just the fast break. And that's the thing that really gets you about Collison - he's a fast guy who plays slowly. Augustin took Collison apart last year. Rose took him apart. I don't think it was an aberration or because Collison was not 100%. I just think Collison has a limited ceiling. I like Collison's work ethic, his ability to hit runners is there, he works hard on defense, he has big shots. I just think his inadequacies are going to show a lot more in the NBA. I don't think he would play much better than Beno.
 
Interesting ESPN article today on the Point Guard prospects, thought I would post here:


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=FordDraftWatch-090115

With a subpar freshman class, a weak international crop and a lack of star potential, the 2009 NBA draft is shaping up to be the weakest in years. And NBA scouts are looking for bright spots wherever they can find them.

This year, the one shining light is that the draft is chock-full of excellent point-guard prospects. A whopping nine point guards are currently ranked in our top 30, and 14 are ranked in the top 60. As many as eight of those point guards could even crack the lottery this year.

Draft Watch: Who's Rising?

Chad Ford looks at five players who have helped their draft stock, including Jodie Meeks. Insider

Lottery Mock Draft
Top 100 | Draft Home



For this week's Stock Watch, we've spoken with numerous GMs and NBA scouts to get their take on the top 10 players at one of the most important positions in the draft.

1. Ricky Rubio, Spain
Rubio has been on NBA radar screens for years. But it was his solid play against Team USA in the Olympics that convinced NBA scouts and players that he had the goods to make it in the league. A wrist injury kept him out of action for the first month of the season, but he's slowly finding his way on the court. His scoring is down, but his assists are up; he recorded an impressive 12 assists in his most recent game.

While there are legitimate questions about Rubio's draft eligibility this year -- he has a large buyout with his team DKV Joventut -- I'm told he will likely declare for the draft and come to the NBA as long as he's a top-three pick. Given the need for point guards at the top of the draft, that seems like a safe bet.


2. Jrue Holiday, UCLA
Holiday isn't even playing the point for UCLA. But neither did Russell Westbrook, who was drafted No. 4 in the 2008 draft and is now running the point for the Thunder.

While Holiday's game isn't flashy, he has the complete package of athleticism, basketball IQ and defensive tenacity that scouts love. He currently looks like he could go anywhere from 4 to 10 on draft night if he declares.


3. Stephen Curry, Davidson
Curry might be the most controversial player on this list. Some scouts don't believe he's a point guard. Others worry about his diminutive stature or his lack of explosiveness as an athlete. Still others fret about some of Curry's disappearing acts against quality teams. However, no one doubts that Curry's shooting ability, basketball IQ and clutch play -- combined with an excellent basketball pedigree -- make him a player that will likely be drafted in the lottery.

There's been talk that the Bobcats could be the club that covets him (and the seats he'd fill) the most … but it's way too early for that speculation. Besides, you'd think MJ and company would have learned by now that drafting players with local or marketing appeal (e.g., Raymond Felton, Sean May and Adam Morrison) doesn't help much if they're not going to be stars.


4. Brandon Jennings, Italy
Jennings took a huge risk by bypassing college and going straight to Europe. To date, the experiment has had a mixed bag of results. On the positive side, Jennings is playing on an excellent team in a talented league. The experience has been priceless. On the flip side, Jennings hasn't exactly been lighting up the competition over there. He's been improving lately, but not to the point that it's clear he's an elite prospect.

Many scouts still believe Jennings is the best point-guard prospect in the draft based on pure talent. But his study-abroad trip makes it tough to tell whether he's as bad as his stats sometimes suggest, or whether the brilliance of his game is just somehow lost in translation.

Workouts will be the key to where Jennings ultimately gets drafted. The range is still pretty wide open. No one would be shocked if he were a top-five pick. Nor would anyone be surprised if he slipped into the mid-first round.


5. Willie Warren, Oklahoma
Warren has quietly become one of the top freshmen in the country. Scouts have been impressed with his combination of size, athleticism and ability to score. While there is a legitimate question about what Warren's true position is, the truth is he has the size to play multiple positions in the NBA.

If Oklahoma goes deep in the tournament, Warren might end up cracking the lottery.


6. Jonny Flynn, Syracuse
Flynn is the little engine that could. His toughness and fearlessness have scouts buzzing. He has hit a bit of a slump lately, but earlier in the season many scouts and a few GMs began mentioning him as a lottery pick, despite his lack of size and questionable defensive ability.

Right now he's looking like a potential mid-first-round pick.


7. Jeff Teague, Wake Forest
Teague is the fastest riser on the board. He has been on a tear lately and has led Wake Forest to an undefeated record, with huge wins over BYU and North Carolina. He's averaging over 30 points a game in his past three outings and has shown he can score from anywhere. One minute he's nailing a 3; the next he's taking it to the basket for the bucket or a foul.

While scouts fear he's more of a scorer than a distributor, it hasn't affected his stock with the way he's been playing. He has moved up to No. 18 on our big board and could continue to rise into the lottery if he keeps this up.


8. Ty Lawson, North Carolina
Poor Ty Lawson. He's had one of the most volatile stock ratings of any player we've ever tracked. One minute scouts think he might be a lottery pick. The next, scouts have him on the first-round bubble.

Lawson has been excellent for most of the season, but after Teague abused him in a rare Tar Heels loss, you could hear the air begin to escape from Lawson's bubble. While he still has the talent to crack the lottery, it will take a brilliant performance in the NCAA tournament -- something he hasn't been able to pull off in the past -- to convince an NBA team to hand over the keys to him.


9. Patrick Mills, St. Mary's (Calif.)
Mills is still basking in the rave reviews he earned this summer while playing for Australia in the Olympics. However, his numbers at St. Mary's are good, but not stellar. His high turnover rate and poor shooting percentage have dipped his stock back onto the first-round bubble.


10. Darren Collison, UCLA
Collison has to be struggling with the idea that for the second straight year an NBA team might draft a player that sits behind him on the depth chart at UCLA. Still, Collison continues to do his thing.

He has terrific speed and has improved as a shooter. But his smallish stature and questionable floor leadership have him stuck on the first-round bubble.

Other point-guard prospects in the top 100: Nick Calathes, Florida; Eric Maynor, Virginia Commonwealth; Sherron Collins, Kansas; Kemba Walker, UConn, Curtis Jerrells, Baylor; Jeremy Pargo, Gonzaga; Nando De Colo, France; Tyshawn Taylor, Kansas; A.J. Price, UConn; Courtney Fortson, Arkansas; Scottie Reynolds, Villanova; Jeremy Lin, Harvard
 
I would rank Lawson and Collison a bit higher but an informative article nonetheless...

We are definitely in the market for a PG, as bad as this draft may be, there is a bright side...
 
I'm with Nbrans on this one, I really like Collison. I think people are under-valuing the guy who can already do most things well. He is very quick, a good passer, great shooter and a good leader. He will at the very least be a good backup PG in the league, but I think he could be a good starter.

Don't think he'll be there with our second 1st, though. Another guy I like is Johnny Flynn. Very good athlete, tenacious player. Not very big, though.
 
9. Patrick Mills, St. Mary's (Calif.)
Mills is still basking in the rave reviews he earned this summer while playing for Australia in the Olympics. However, his numbers at St. Mary's are good, but not stellar. His high turnover rate and poor shooting percentage have dipped his stock back onto the first-round bubble.


GOOD, let him fall to 20s!!! how about a Blake Griffin and Patrick Mills 2009 draft!!
 
Say if Rubio were to declare for this draft, but he'd have to stay overseas for a year, would that bother anyone? Downside is that we'd have to wait a year before he can start being integrated into the franchise and we'd likely still suck for another year. Upside, we'd actually get him and we get more lins next year.
 
Say if Rubio were to declare for this draft, but he'd have to stay overseas for a year, would that bother anyone? Downside is that we'd have to wait a year before he can start being integrated into the franchise and we'd likely still suck for another year. Upside, we'd actually get him and we get more lins next year.
Wouldn't bother me, and given the Peja experience I'm not sure if it would bother Petrie. It would be a tad depressing though.
 
Wouldn't bother me, and given the Peja experience I'm not sure if it would bother Petrie. It would be a tad depressing though.
Agreed. And unlike Peja, we know Rubio wants to come over and the contract would only be an issue for one season. Besides, there is more precedent now for these things getting worked out. With Peja it was a farily new issue and there were rumors he might be under contact for another 3 seasons (IIRC).
 
I like Lawson with the Houston pick (if he's available). Main reason is that his a/to ratio is great, and he has improved a lot this year... But.. He is still 5'9-5'10 so he will probably only be a backup in the NBA.
 
Say if Rubio were to declare for this draft, but he'd have to stay overseas for a year, would that bother anyone? Downside is that we'd have to wait a year before he can start being integrated into the franchise and we'd likely still suck for another year. Upside, we'd actually get him and we get more lins next year.

Wouldn't bother me much except I would have to put up with another year of Crapo Udrih. But I would know a better PG is on the way, and we would get a high pick next year.
 
You know, having now watched Greg Monroe three or four times now, he looks like a different player depending on who he's playing. When he goes up against slow bigs he dominates with his quickness (UConn, Notre Dame, presumably Providence although I didn't see it). When he goes up against strong/athletic bigs (Pitt, Syracuse) he struggles banging in the post.

I know, just a frosh, his passing is still terrific, but he's going to have to get stronger and adjust. It's not going to be easier in the NBA.

Against Syracuse's zone Monroe basically got to do whatever he wanted passing the ball, and he picked them apart at will, forcing them to switch to man defense. On the other end, he wasn't really a factor on the boards or playing defense except for the times when Syracuse went small.

Meanwhile, Flynn reminds me a bit of DJ Augustin, although even more athletic. He's a scrapper, extremely quick, and can dunk easily. Primarily a scorer, but can also get into the lane and set guys up. He's not a brilliant passer, but he's solid. Still worried about that height though.

DeJuan Summers had a very strong game with some nifty shooting and some amazing throwdowns.

And lastly, Doris Burke is a really good announcer. I guess you'd have to be to break the gender barrier, but if they'd open it up to more women and get rid of some of the jackass announcers they have now the sports world would be a much better place.
 
Last edited:
UConn/St. Johns:

This was a good game for me to watch, as resident Thabeet jocker, because he was pretty horrendous in the beginning. This was a rare game when UConn actually got the ball to him in the post, and the first time it worked - he went up with a nice little jumper and made it. After that... yikes. He catches just about everything. That's not the problem. The problem was what happened afterwards -- he kept going up weak, traveled, just didn't look like he knew how to play basketball. He was terrible.

Then as the first half went on he had good positioning and got a solid dunk, started blocking shots, got tough rebounds, calmed down, and for the rest of the game he looked like a lottery pick again. He had one sequence where he had a big dunk, then ran all the way down the floor on a fast break and grabbed the rebound on the other end.

So basically I think there are two Thabeets. There is the Bad Thabeet, who looks like he was pulled off the street and given a uniform, and there's the Good Thabeet, who looks like a force. Seems like you're either getting one or the other, even in the same game. I suspect some of you have only seen Bad Thabeet, and I don't blame you for thinking we'd be crazy to draft him. Just keep watching, and maybe Good Thabeet will show up.
 
Last edited:
I have seen a lot of Thabeet.. Only saw the first half tonight.. I didn't want to post anything and make you feel bad ;)

According to the box score it looks like he did well in the second half so I will give him that much. What I did see tonight in the first half was pretty bad.

The reason I wouldn't draft him is because of exactly what you said. When he's bad he's REAL bad. It's like he's fresh off the street w/ no BBall exp. In the NBA which is arguably the highest level of ball he might have some issues with the fast pace.
 
Yeah, honestly I'll admit it's bizarre. It's almost like he has to consciously remember how to play basketball, and when he does he's really good, but when his head isn't in the game he reverts to a lot of bad habits. Then he gets in a flow and he's tough.

He has been having less of these Bad Thabeet games this season, but I do wonder if it will be a habit with him, otherwise he could struggle to come in off the bench and be effective from game to game.

Watching Arizona/UCLA now. Collison looking so-so (but really good passing), Jordan Hill looking really tough, Jrue Holiday an absolute non-factor.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
Say if Rubio were to declare for this draft, but he'd have to stay overseas for a year, would that bother anyone? Downside is that we'd have to wait a year before he can start being integrated into the franchise and we'd likely still suck for another year. Upside, we'd actually get him and we get more lins next year.
Wouldn't bother me in the least. We're not doing diddly next year anyway. And isn't Rubio incredible young, like 18 or so? If we had the chance to draft him, I really think the big question is: Would the Maloofs put out the $$$$ to buy out his contract?
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
You know, having now watched Greg Monroe three or four times now, he looks like a different player depending on who he's playing. When he goes up against slow bigs he dominates with his quickness (UConn, Notre Dame, presumably Providence although I didn't see it). When he goes up against strong/athletic bigs (Pitt, Syracuse) he struggles banging in the post.

I know, just a frosh, his passing is still terrific, but he's going to have to get stronger and adjust. It's not going to be easier in the NBA.

Against Syracuse's zone Monroe basically got to do whatever he wanted passing the ball, and he picked them apart at will, forcing them to switch to man defense. On the other end, he wasn't really a factor on the boards or playing defense except for the times when Syracuse went small.

Meanwhile, Flynn reminds me a bit of DJ Augustin, although even more athletic. He's a scrapper, extremely quick, and can dunk easily. Primarily a scorer, but can also get into the lane and set guys up. He's not a brilliant passer, but he's solid. Still worried about that height though.

DeJuan Summers had a very strong game with some nifty shooting and some amazing throwdowns.

And lastly, Doris Burke is a really good announcer. I guess you'd have to be to break the gender barrier, but if they'd open it up to more women and get rid of some of the jackass announcers they have now the sports world would be a much better place.
Monroe has the frame to get stronger. Does he have the mentality to bang? I dunno. From what I've seen he doesn't shy away from it. That's something that a lot of interviews of him, his coaches, and others might tell you more about. Without the benefit of all that, I think he's still the best player I've seen so far and I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on increasing his physicality over time because he's so young.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
UConn/St. Johns:

This was a good game for me to watch, as resident Thabeet jocker, because he was pretty horrendous in the beginning. This was a rare game when UConn actually got the ball to him in the post, and the first time it worked - he went up with a nice little jumper and made it. After that... yikes. He catches just about everything. That's not the problem. The problem was what happened afterwards -- he kept going up weak, traveled, just didn't look like he knew how to play basketball. He was terrible.

Then as the first half went on he had good positioning and got a solid dunk, started blocking shots, got tough rebounds, calmed down, and for the rest of the game he looked like a lottery pick again. He had one sequence where he had a big dunk, then ran all the way down the floor on a fast break and grabbed the rebound on the other end.

So basically I think there are two Thabeets. There is the Bad Thabeet, who looks like he was pulled off the street and given a uniform, and there's the Good Thabeet, who looks like a force. Seems like you're either getting one or the other, even in the same game. I suspect some of you have only seen Bad Thabeet, and I don't blame you for thinking we'd be crazy to draft him. Just keep watching, and maybe Good Thabeet will show up.
I must have seen bad Thabeet. It's very hard to evaluate a guy like that who is so up and down. And like you said, it can even be in the same game. So what do you do? Split the difference? On one day he's #1 in the draft, on the next he's #30. How about #15!:p
 
Wouldn't bother me in the least. We're not doing diddly next year anyway. And isn't Rubio incredible young, like 18 or so? If we had the chance to draft him, I really think the big question is: Would the Maloofs put out the $$$$ to buy out his contract?
The NBA team is limited to contributing $500,000 to the buyout, so it's really Rubio's headache to foot the bill and figure out at what point it's worth it to come over here.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
No wonder I wasn't impressed with Harden when I saw him in person last year. He can't score on Daniel Hackett. I didn't see this game, but it looks like DeRozan is starting to get aggressive. 19 points in a half is pretty impressive. There's a whole lot more college basketball left before the draft. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some major shakeups in the top 15 over the next couple months.
 
Hackett's probably the best man defender in the Pac 10. Too bad his offense isn't better. (and yeah, I do think Harden is going to have probelms in the NBA with his lack of athleticism and size)
 
You know, having now watched Greg Monroe three or four times now, he looks like a different player depending on who he's playing. When he goes up against slow bigs he dominates with his quickness (UConn, Notre Dame, presumably Providence although I didn't see it). When he goes up against strong/athletic bigs (Pitt, Syracuse) he struggles banging in the post.

I know, just a frosh, his passing is still terrific, but he's going to have to get stronger and adjust. It's not going to be easier in the NBA.

Against Syracuse's zone Monroe basically got to do whatever he wanted passing the ball, and he picked them apart at will, forcing them to switch to man defense. On the other end, he wasn't really a factor on the boards or playing defense except for the times when Syracuse went small.

Meanwhile, Flynn reminds me a bit of DJ Augustin, although even more athletic. He's a scrapper, extremely quick, and can dunk easily. Primarily a scorer, but can also get into the lane and set guys up. He's not a brilliant passer, but he's solid. Still worried about that height though.

DeJuan Summers had a very strong game with some nifty shooting and some amazing throwdowns.

And lastly, Doris Burke is a really good announcer. I guess you'd have to be to break the gender barrier, but if they'd open it up to more women and get rid of some of the jackass announcers they have now the sports world would be a much better place.
Monroe needs to bang more and improve his overall aggressiveness. His athleticism concerns me, but he has good quickness and is bouncy (albeit doesn't get very high). He needs to find the right weight to balance his power and finesse game. His IQ is off the charts though and that's a big reason why I think he'll succeed.
 
Wouldn't bother me in the least. We're not doing diddly next year anyway. And isn't Rubio incredible young, like 18 or so? If we had the chance to draft him, I really think the big question is: Would the Maloofs put out the $$$$ to buy out his contract?
I agree. Don't know exactly what his contract situation is, but I think his buyout is 6 million euros this year, it declines next year (to what? I don't know) and is done after that. It'd be interesting if we got him this year and then had a high pick next year, then signed him, and then got someone good with our cap space; the excitement alone would sell a ton of tickets. That's just me dreaming though.