Reggie's Job in jeopardy... Already?

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#31
Im sorry maybe you should watch a wnba game and then an NBA game... Im sorry you could put the a very below avg college mens team against the best wnba team and the wnba team would get murdered. In fact im sure theres mens high school teams that would crush the wnba.

wow grow up a little? are you kiddin?
WNBA vs NBA... im sorry but everything about the game is different minus the rules. its been 12 years since the wnba was formed and zero thats ZERO head coaches have made it as head coaches in the NBA.

the moral of the story is there's a reason that the wnba will not be around in ten years and the NBA will be global... theres a huge difference between the two. The NBA is the elite of the world and the wnba is like high school basketball.

You seriously need to get a clue. The WNBA is doing better than it ever has been. It's not going anywhere. And frankly, as a basketball fan I'd expect you to be excited that this is the one sport where a professional women's league has been able to stick in this country. There's no way an average college men's team would beat the best team in the WNBA. No way. Some of the women in the WNBA can shoot the lights out. Actually, a lot of them can. The only reason women can't compete with men is because of the physical disadvantage. But an average college men's team has maybe one NBA caliber wing player, if they're lucky, and their tallest player is probably 6'9". That evens the playing field a lot. Considering that WNBA teams are composed of the best female basketball players in the world, even the physical advantage would not be enough for the men to dominate.

Paul Westhead, btw, won a championship coaching the Lakers in the 80s and won a championship coaching the Phoenix Mercury in 2007. Stop talking **** which you clearly know nothing about. I've watched a lot of WNBA games and a lot of NBA games and a lot of college men's games and a lot of college women's game. Because I'm a basketball fan. And the worst basketball, by far, is played by the college men. Probably because the best players only stay one year so they never get to develop any kind of chemistry. The WNBA is the elite of the world too, they just happen to be women instead of men. Oh wait, I forgot, women don't count. Clearly. :rolleyes:

Brick, I wasn't commenting on the coaching credentials of Whisenant specifically but rather the assumption that because he's only coached in the WNBA, the only reason he would be considered for an NBA coaching job by the Maloofs is because he's a kiss-***. If the Maloofs want a proven defensive coach, I think winning championships matters. You continue to harp on Reggie's ego-problem while simultaneously citing his NBA background here as proof of his credibility with NBA players. Sure, he's got all sorts of credibility but what's the use of that if he doesn't know how to coach a team and treats the players like school boys? Get me somebody who knows basketball and I don't care where they coached or where they played just what they can do for this team. Credibility comes from winning. Ain't any other way to get it.

Even if you could find a magical hippie colony of kumbalylah singing NBA players willing to sit around the Whisenhant tree smoking some of Brad's weed and absorbing Maloof wisdom, it would all come crumbling down amongst the disdain of laughter of their peers, their fanboys, their posses, and the Charles Barkleys of the world. It is about status as well as money, and playing for the "girls coach" makes you an automatic joke. Sign of misogynism? Sure thing. Way it is? Also sure thing.
Are you honestly citing the ignorance of other people as reason why we need to further the same ignorance? That's your argument right? Give the millionaire spoiled babies what they want or they might pout and spoil the party? Maybe if you put a little more trust in people they might surprise you. Charles Barkley isn't playing in the NBA anymore. Neither is Tim Hardaway. I think Kevin Martin is smart enough to play for a "girls coach" if that coach would be better for his career.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#32
Credibility comes from winning....at the level you are seeking credibility at.

Try telling your college prof "well I got an A in geometry in high school" and see where it gets you. Try being Quincy Douhby and telling Reggie "I scored 24ppg in college, just ive me the rock and get out of the way." Or more directly, "I won a lot of games in college" -- fails nearly 100% of the tiem in the NBA.

Whiz has won absolutely nothing as an NBA coach. Or an NBA anything except hanger on. He has won exactly 1 title of any significance, in a 12 team league without a single player in it who could remotely sniff the 15th spot on an NBA roster. The last time he coached college men the NBA did not even have a three point line yet.

In the richest basktball league in the world, where the best of the best of the best fight and clamor for the jobs, hiring such a character is a blatant joke.

And P.S. Yes in fact I am saying that you play reality. You can seriously damage your franchise's image and ability to attract top personnel by screwing around with head in the clouds crusades. You're either the serious NBA franchise muscling toward the rebuild, or you're the Vegas three ring circus back to being a punchline along with the Clippers.
 
#33
The whole point isn't Coach Whiz or the WNBA. It's that being a successful coach in the NBA is hard enough. Coming to the NBA with no assistant coach experience at that level is just asking for failure. There are way too many failed attempts by college coaches who won college titles and looked like a fish out of water in the NBA. Theus probably shouldn't have gotten the job either without spending time learning the ropes as an assistant. His mistakes show that lack of experience. If Whiz wanted the head coaching job in the league, he should start by sitting in the second chair and learning the league. The same was true with Theus. The next coach should by hired by Petrie and the Maloofs should sit back and let him do his job.

The Maloofs made a mistake letting Adelman go. They might have made another one in passing over Elston Turner who was defensive minded and knew Adelman's offensive system that they seem to want so badly now.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#34
Credibility comes from winning....at the level you are seeking credibility at.

Try telling your college prof "well I got an A in geometry in high school" and see where it gets you. Try being Quincy Douhby and telling Reggie "I scored 24ppg in college, just ive me the rock and get out of the way." Or more directly, "I won a lot of games in college" -- fails nearly 100% of the tiem in the NBA.
Exactly. So that puts Whisenant on a level playing field with Reggie Theus and every other wannabe NBA coach with some experience at a lower level of coaching doesn't it? How do you automatically know that an WNBA coach can't cut it if you never give them a chance? Because of some fear that your players will laugh him out of the room? I'm sorry, but that's a stupid argument. Sure I agree that he should be an assistant somewhere first and prove he belongs at the NBA level. And ideally you want your coaches to have some experience as players. But all else being equal, WNBA coaching experience shouldn't be a knock against you.

Again, I don't care about Whisenant -- I know nothing about the guy. Maybe he's a good coach, I don't know. I don't even want to get involved in that discussion. The WNBA is legit. That's all I'm saying. People like to talk trash without even watching it. Women can play sports too. It's 2008-- I wouldn't expect this to be a stunning revelation.
 
#35
You seriously need to get a clue. The WNBA is doing better than it ever has been. It's not going anywhere.
Maybe you should do some more research. The WNBA has not made $1. It loses money (about $12 mil/year) every year for the NBA. With the state of the economy it wouldnt surprise me if they pulled the plug. The NBA already pulled it on the Orlando pre draft camp.

Now are there some potential coaches in the WNBA? Yes, but they all were players in the NBA or have experience in the NBA already.
 
#36
If people want our players to start playing better defense then we’ll have to look to our “leader”. I love Kevin a lot but if he’s going to be the leader or the top dude right now, then he’ll have to take it and lead and that also includes better defense. Maybe our team should listen to Kobe (defense wins – video: http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3686429). If Kevin wants to lead and he wants the others to follow then he’ll have to do the dirty work too.

As far as Reggie. Besides the fact that I think it’s way too soon to cut Reggie, especially with our injuries. I think Reggie needs to lighten his grip. He’s too tight and he’s trying to control everything, he should let his players sometimes figure things out. Sure, they’re young but screaming on the sidelines and yelling out plays makes me tired.

If the Maloofs want Reggie to play the young guys then they should just be patient. With kids comes probably more losses than wins. They’re not going to be elite tomorrow, give them time to learn and adjust.
 
#37
maloofs would be down right stupid if they try to replace the current coach... a guy who has actually PLAYED an NBA game and was a decent performer... if were rebuilding might as well rebuild with the guy who knows something about the business already.. and some one who has a year under his belt.. risking on some one else just prolongs the rebuild.. a rotation of coaches messes up systems with players.... its not like K-mart is choking Theus...........yet
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#39
Exactly. So that puts Whisenant on a level playing field with Reggie Theus and every other wannabe NBA coach with some experience at a lower level of coaching doesn't it? How do you automatically know that an WNBA coach can't cut it if you never give them a chance? Because of some fear that your players will laugh him out of the room? I'm sorry, but that's a stupid argument. Sure I agree that he should be an assistant somewhere first and prove he belongs at the NBA level. And ideally you want your coaches to have some experience as players. But all else being equal, WNBA coaching experience shouldn't be a knock against you.

Again, I don't care about Whisenant -- I know nothing about the guy. Maybe he's a good coach, I don't know. I don't even want to get involved in that discussion. The WNBA is legit. That's all I'm saying. People like to talk trash without even watching it. Women can play sports too. It's 2008-- I wouldn't expect this to be a stunning revelation.
They might be on level playing field as far as both having coached in college, and both having connections to New Mexico. But thats where it ends. Whisenant probably has more overall coaching experience than Reggie. But Reggie has something Whisenant doesn't. He's played in the NBA. He can come in and say, I've walked where your walking. I've already did what your trying to do, and I did it pretty damm well.

He has immediate respect at a level that Whisenant could never have. Look around the league and see who's coaching. Most of them are ex-NBA players. Those that aren't, payed their dues in the old CBA or came from a high profile college basketball system. The one's that have had the hardest time of it are the college coaches. Those that have made it, took serious lumps for a while, while many others either failed or became assistant coaches.

Reggie's a good talker. He has charm. In some ways he reminds me of another good talker with charm. Gary St. Jean. An ex-highschool coach who was befriended by Nellie. He had his head so far up Nellie's rear that for a while, no one even knew he was around. He talked and charmed his way from there to being the head coach of the Kings to being the GM of the Warriors. In the end, there was no substance, just the charm and the talk. And now he's gone.

I'm not saying that Reggie is Gary St. Jean. I'm saying that when you hire a person for a job, you look at their experience and track record, not how well they give a speech. The Maloff's are salesmen, and I think they're impressed with people who know how to sell themselves. Its a nice attribute to have, but it doesn't make you a good coach. When they hired Reggie, they gave him carte blanche. They let him hire who he wanted. I think that was a mistake. They should have insisted on him hiring an experienced assistant. Maybe one with defensive credentials.

The Maloff's knew what they were getting when they hired Reggie. A young coach with little experience. I'm more than sure the Petrie would have pointed it out to them. But now their screaming ouch, and trying to dump it all on Reggie. He does deserve blame for what he does wrong, but he's never misrepresented himself. That blame goes to the Maloff's.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#40
Maybe you should do some more research. The WNBA has not made $1. It loses money (about $12 mil/year) every year for the NBA. With the state of the economy it wouldnt surprise me if they pulled the plug. The NBA already pulled it on the Orlando pre draft camp.

Now are there some potential coaches in the WNBA? Yes, but they all were players in the NBA or have experience in the NBA already.
If the WNBA is struggling financially, it has nothing to do with the quality of basketball being played on the court. Their problems stem from the lack of TV coverage, the poor marketing campaigns, and the inability of American culture as a whole to embrace women's professional sports. The games are great -- but nobody watches them. And because nobody watches them, people say that their business model doesn't work. That's self-fulfilling prophecy. They have the same business model as every other professional sports league -- there just isn't that much interest in women's sports for whatever stupid reason. Not to mention, some NBA teams are losing money right now and perhaps more will be in the near future given the current state of the economy.
 
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sactownfan

Guest
#41
If the WNBA is struggling financially, it has nothing to do with the quality of basketball being played on the court. Their problems stem from the lack of TV coverage, the poor marketing campaigns, and the inability of American culture as a whole to embrace women's professional sports. The games are great -- but nobody watches them. And because nobody watches them, people say that their business model doesn't work. That's self-fulfilling prophecy. They have the same business model as every other professional sports league -- there just isn't that much interest in women's sports for whatever stupid reason. Not to mention, some NBA teams are losing money right now and perhaps more will be in the near future given the current state of the economy.
no matter how you try to sell it, NO ONE IS GOING TO WATCH IT! NO ONE WANTS TO WATCH IT! hence why its failing. the game isn't close to being as good as mens college basketball and isn't close to as entertaining as both mens and womens college basketball. If MLS soccer cant break thru to the big time media neither will lame WNBA.

Again the moral is this guy the maloofs wanna hire has no experience! WNBA equals nothing, and is actually a con from the start, in that everyone knows its not experience so even if by pure chance this guy could coach (which he probably cant) he will be the laughing stock of the NBA. good luck getting your players to listen. What NBA people respect is the top of the college ranks(which hardly works out) and NBA experience. thats that. You wanna be an NBA head coach be a winning college mens coach or an NBA assistant
 

6th

Homer Fan Since 1985
#42
no matter how you try to sell it, NO ONE IS GOING TO WATCH IT! NO ONE WANTS TO WATCH IT! hence why its failing. the game isn't close to being as good as mens college basketball and isn't close to as entertaining as both mens and womens college basketball. If MLS soccer cant break thru to the big time media neither will lame WNBA.

Again the moral is this guy the maloofs wanna hire has no experience! WNBA equals nothing, and is actually a con from the start, in that everyone knows its not experience so even if by pure chance this guy could coach (which he probably cant) he will be the laughing stock of the NBA. good luck getting your players to listen. What NBA people respect is the top of the college ranks(which hardly works out) and NBA experience. thats that. You wanna be an NBA head coach be a winning college mens coach or an NBA assistant

I do not want Whiz selected. Let me just make that clear right away.

If you do not like/appreciate the women's game, then fine. But all this crap you are spouting is just that.........CRAP! 8,000 people show up for the Monarchs games. That does not equate to nobody. The WNBA is not failing and is appreciated by families all over the United States. :mad:
 
#43
no matter how you try to sell it, NO ONE IS GOING TO WATCH IT! NO ONE WANTS TO WATCH IT! hence why its failing. the game isn't close to being as good as mens college basketball and isn't close to as entertaining as both mens and womens college basketball. If MLS soccer cant break thru to the big time media neither will lame WNBA.

Again the moral is this guy the maloofs wanna hire has no experience! WNBA equals nothing, and is actually a con from the start, in that everyone knows its not experience so even if by pure chance this guy could coach (which he probably cant) he will be the laughing stock of the NBA. good luck getting your players to listen. What NBA people respect is the top of the college ranks(which hardly works out) and NBA experience. thats that. You wanna be an NBA head coach be a winning college mens coach or an NBA assistant
Condescend much? Goodness...

Just because you (and I) don't like WNBA basketball doesn't mean no one does.

That having been said, the majority of basketball fans don't appear to support the WNBA all that much. There are some diehards who participate on this very board, but the brand is failing for a reason.

Still doesn't mean that a guy like Whisenant can't coach. There are probably quite a few guys in the WNBA, #1's and assistants, who can coach basketball with the best of them. I wouldn't be surprised to see Michael Cooper get an offer one day soon (I think Bill Laimbeer, on the other hand, is probably seeing his best days in the WNBA). I'd add Whisenant to the list of coaches who will probably get to the NBA at some point, especially with the Maloofs to vouch for him.

I have never been thrilled at the prospect of him being the Kings coach, but that doesn't mean that I don't think he knows basketball.

If the NBA had as many good coaches available as the NFL does (Cowher, Billick, Mariucci, Schottenheimer, and so on), we'd be in pretty good shape. Avery Johnson is the only guy out there right now with any type of decent record behind him. Which is why I say we stick with who we got for now. The grass ain't always greener.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#44
no matter how you try to sell it, NO ONE IS GOING TO WATCH IT! NO ONE WANTS TO WATCH IT! hence why its failing. the game isn't close to being as good as mens college basketball and isn't close to as entertaining as both mens and womens college basketball. If MLS soccer cant break thru to the big time media neither will lame WNBA.
You can call the WNBA a joke as much as you want but it isn't a joke. By and large, the only people saying that anyway are the people who haven't watched it-- which is almost everyone. That's just plain ignorance. Watch two full games and then tell me it's boring. Watch a playoff series. And believe it or not, there are people who do watch it and enjoy it. Nobody watches MLS because people in America don't understand soccer. But people do watch basketball. This has nothing to do with the quality of basketball in the WNBA being bad and everything to do with the players being women.
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#45
no matter how you try to sell it, NO ONE IS GOING TO WATCH IT! NO ONE WANTS TO WATCH IT!
Uh, I watch it on occasion. My wife and her friends like it better than the men's game. Our 5-year old enjoys it as well. We usually go to a couple games a year, which is about/almost as often as we go to Kings games.

So, if you have nothing constructive to say, maybe try listening to others and learning something for a change.

That isn't to say that I'd like Wiz to be the coach either, but no reason to be a jerk towards the guy.
 
#46
This has nothing to do with the quality of basketball in the WNBA being bad and everything to do with the players being women.
I have to stop short of blaming sexism for the failings of the WNBA. I don't think the reason people don't watch is because of an aversion to women's basketball. I used to enjoy women's college basketball (though I don't watch it anymore), but have never enjoyed the WNBA.

I think there's certainly a drop off in the level of talent and ability from one league to the next. And there's something about watching a game or sitting an arena that's barely half-full that robs it of some of it's entertainment value. You assume that everyone who bothers to watch would enjoy it. I think it's evident that that's not the case, otherwise the league would be a lot more popular than it is.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#47
If the NBA had as many good coaches available as the NFL does (Cowher, Billick, Mariucci, Schottenheimer, and so on), we'd be in pretty good shape. Avery Johnson is the only guy out there right now with any type of decent record behind him. Which is why I say we stick with who we got for now. The grass ain't always greener.
Off the top of my head:

Avery Johnson (NBA Finals)
Flip Saunders (Conference Finals 4x)
Jeff Van Gundy (NBA Finals)

and of course

Isiah Thomas

P.S. and Whisenhant has absolutely NO chance to make it to the NBA unless the Maloofs do the nepotistic its my toy and I'll do what I want to thing. He's 63 years old without a scrap of NBA experience, or major college experience in 30 years. There are 1000 better qualified guys out there, all looking for the same few spots. Hiring him as head coach is a joke, and nobody is going to hire a 63 yr old outsider with no experience to become a rookie assistant.
 
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sactownfan

Guest
#48
hey if you enjoy the WNBA then good for you. Im sure its a good family experience, maybe even better for small kids with less vulgar fans in the crowd.

But again im just saying again, its my view(which is a fact) that its nothing compared to the NBA level. It not the same game, its not the same speed, ect.

The NBA is the elite of the elite of the world, when it comes to the game of basketball, and if you wanna be a head coach in the NBA its not an accepted form of experience.

many of you are correct in that if a WNBA coach does make it, he will need to have had NBA experience as a player or gain experience as an NBA assistant, first. Thats the end of it!
 
#49
Off the top of my head:

Avery Johnson (NBA Finals)
Flip Saunders (Conference Finals 4x)
Jeff Van Gundy (NBA Finals)

and of course

Isiah Thomas

P.S. and Whisenhant has absolutely NO chance to make it to the NBA unless the Maloofs do the nepotistic its my toy and I'll do what I want to thing. He's 63 years old without a scrap of NBA experience, or major college experience in 30 years. There are 1000 better qualified guys out there, all looking for the same few spots. Hiring him as head coach is a joke, and nobody is going to hire a 63 yr old outsider with no experience to become a rookie assistant.
Well, I hate everything about Flip Saunders style of coaching. Yeah he's been to the conference Finals a few times, but he's like the poor man's version of Phil Jackson in that regard: always had a superstar or extremely talented team getting him there (KG in his prime MVP years, and the Pistons, in the throws of their run of six straight ECFs). In fact, especially with the Pistons these last three years, I felt like they got that far in spite of Flip Saunders. If I never see his mug on an NBA sideline again, it will be too soon.

JVG is probably done coaching at this point. I'd think it would have to be the perfect scenario for him to come back, but it seems like his style of coaching has worn itself thin on the NBA. At least for right now.

I have nothing to say about Isiah Thomas.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#50
This has nothing to do with the quality of basketball in the WNBA being bad and everything to do with the players being women.
It is actually just as true to say that the very reason people watch the WNBA is precisely because they are women. No other lesser basketball league in the U.S. has as many fans, and its for an aesthetically less appealing product (the game is played below the rim, by smaller, slower, weaker athletes -- the true problem with "the players being women").

The lie is put to the problem being nothing more than sexism when you see a sport like tennis, with a women's and men's tour on almost equal footing. Not equal, but close. The women are still smaller, slower and weaker athletes, but the critical factor is it does not make the game aesthetically less appealing (in fact many, myself included, think it may acually be more so as the men's game is so dominated by blinding service points). There is always sexism involved at some level in these things, as unfortunately we always get someone to demonstrate in these conversations, but the problems attracting fans for the WNBA are deeper than just that.

This is all tangential to the Whiz issue except perhaps to underscore the huge gap between his experience and his aspirations.
 
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sactownfan

Guest
#51
I think that Avery Johnson could be a steal at this point. I think he's learned his lesson when it comes to being to controlling with the offense. He's had a year now to sit and think about it. Hes obviously a really smart guy and i would expect him to open up the offense moving forward since thats what got him fired. Players dont like to be told what to do every time down the floor.

Avery Johnson is without a doubt a defense first coach and was able to get even the lazy mavs to really step it up when he was there.

A former coach of the year! a defensive specialist! and again im sure he will be more willing to open it up on offense, especially if Petrie stresses that when hes hired. Petrie wont sign off on Avery unless he is willing to allow Petries offensive players to play their game.
 
#52
If the WNBA is struggling financially, it has nothing to do with the quality of basketball being played on the court. Their problems stem from the lack of TV coverage, the poor marketing campaigns, and the inability of American culture as a whole to embrace women's professional sports. The games are great -- but nobody watches them. And because nobody watches them, people say that their business model doesn't work. That's self-fulfilling prophecy. They have the same business model as every other professional sports league -- there just isn't that much interest in women's sports for whatever stupid reason. Not to mention, some NBA teams are losing money right now and perhaps more will be in the near future given the current state of the economy.
But they don't have the same business model as other major sports. The WNBA started off with the players being contracted to the league. It wasn't until a few years ago they put in a salary cap. But fundamentally, they are supported by the NBA. The only other sports business model that is similar would be the minor leagues, IE nba devoplment league.

If the WNBA was cast off on its own it would not survive. If it was a good product it would be able to survive on it's own merits. It would be able to get a better TV deal, it would have more money for advertising (how much more do you expect the NBA to put up when they are losing $12 million already?), not to mention they would have more teams. But in order to have more team you need more quality players. I don't see that happening when so many teams have already failed.
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#54
hey if you enjoy the WNBA then good for you. Im sure its a good family experience, maybe even better for small kids with less vulgar fans in the crowd.

But again im just saying again, its my view(which is a fact) that its nothing compared to the NBA level. It not the same game, its not the same speed, ect.
Um, but that isn't what you said (emphatically, with all caps even since you apparently think we can't read lowercase letters):

no matter how you try to sell it, NO ONE IS GOING TO WATCH IT! NO ONE WANTS TO WATCH IT!
 
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sactownfan

Guest
#55
well im dialing it down for all the haters. Obviously some people watch it but come on now its not that many.
 
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sactownfan

Guest
#56
I think that Avery Johnson could be a steal at this point. I think he's learned his lesson when it comes to being to controlling with the offense. He's had a year now to sit and think about it. Hes obviously a really smart guy and i would expect him to open up the offense moving forward since thats what got him fired. Players dont like to be told what to do every time down the floor.

Avery Johnson is without a doubt a defense first coach and was able to get even the lazy mavs to really step it up when he was there.

A former coach of the year! a defensive specialist! and again im sure he will be more willing to open it up on offense, especially if Petrie stresses that when hes hired. Petrie wont sign off on Avery unless he is willing to allow Petries offensive players to play their game.
back to the real topic
 
#57
There's no way an average college men's team would beat the best team in the WNBA. No way. Some of the women in the WNBA can shoot the lights out. Actually, a lot of them can. The only reason women can't compete with men is because of the physical disadvantage. But an average college
men's team has maybe one NBA caliber wing player, if they're lucky, and their tallest player is probably 6'9". That evens the playing field a lot. Considering that WNBA teams are composed of the best female basketball players in the world, even the physical advantage would not be enough for the men to dominate.
Every men's college basketball team at almost any level would beat the best WNBA team. That to me, is an inarguable fact. I think most well-coached men's high school teams would beat the WNBA too. The women would not be able to free themselves for good looks against the much tougher men's defense, so the one equalizing skill of shooting would not count for much.

In terms of the quality of play minus the athleticism NBA vs WNBA, in the WNBA they score less, don't shoot as well %-wise, turn the ball over more, assist on fewer baskets and do all this playing against a far less resistant defense due to the athleticism. This taking into account the 48 vs 40 mpg.

College Men vs WNBA - I just randomly matched up the Monarchs and Cal basketball, two local options. The numbers are much closer, but Cal has more assists, less turnovers, shoots a higher % and scores more.

The play is sloppier and a lot less athletic, that's why less people watch. That said I've sat and watched a few Monarchs games, they're ok, and I like rooting for them.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#58
It is actually just as true to say that the very reason people watch the WNBA is precisely because they are women. No other lesser basketball league in the U.S. has as many fans, and its for an aesthetically less appealing product (the game is played below the rim, by smaller, slower, weaker athletes -- the true problem with "the players being women").

The lie is put to the problem being nothing more than sexism when you see a sport like tennis, with a women's and men's tour on almost equal footing. Not equal, but close. The women are still smaller, slower and weaker athletes, but the critical factor is it does not make the game aesthetically less appealing (in fact many, myself included, think it may acually be more so as the men's game is so dominated by blinding service points). There is always sexism involved at some level in these things, as unfortunately we always get someone to demonstrate in these conversations, but the problems attracting fans for the WNBA are deeper than just that.
But it's not a "lesser" brand of basketball like the D-League is. These aren't players who are not good enough to make an NBA roster, they aren't even eligible. These are the best of the best women basketball players in the world. It doesn't make sense to consider it a subset of the NBA. It's not the junior circuit, it's women's basketball. I don't see why this is so complicated. We have the World Cup every four years and the Women's World Cup every four years in soccer and I don't see anyone referring to women's soccer as a lesser version of men's soccer.

And on the other matter, regarding aesthetics, how many people complain that the NBA has become more about acrobatics and one-on-one basketball in the post-Jordan, Allen Iverson era than solid fundamentals? Sure I like to see dunks and alley-oops too, but there's a lot more to the game than that. And seeing brilliant passes, spinning layups, fierce swats, clutch three-pointers, and three-point plays is exciting no matter what size the athletes are. The inherent drama in any sport comes from seeing very talented athletes square off against each other in a context where only one can win. That's universal to all sports and it's just as apparent in women's basketball as it is in men's. The women's game isn't aesthetically inferior, it's a more balanced team game. It's really only inferior if you're obsessed with a brand of basketball that includes knocking people around and dunking.

Women's tennis and gymnastics have a long history of generating interest within the context of certain events. People watch the major tennis tournaments, people watch the Olympics. And those events generate viewers for that reason. But I never hear anything about gymnastics except during the Olympics and I'm not a tennis fan so I don't watch it anyway, but the Grand Slam tournaments -- there's like 4 a year? Is that right? I don't think that's all that comparable to a professional league like the WNBA. Actually, what those are good examples of is a level playing field. Men and women compete side by side in those events (though not with each other) and people tend to watch both about equally. That indicates to me that, given the chance, women's athletics can be successful. But ask yourself if either women's gymnastics or women's tennis would ever have been successful if there weren't some corresponding men's event alongside them.

What you're seeing with the WNBA is a league that is 10 years old and just starting to come into it's own. The NBA is more than 50 years old. Major League Baseball is over 100 years old. NFL football is almost 90 years old. You think those leagues got where they are now overnight? The WNBA faces the even greater challenge of succeeding in a national sports market that for the most part ignores women's athletics. Title IX was 1972. If you think about it, that's really not that long ago. I wasn't around to see what women's athletics were like before then, but if it took national legislation to get comparable funding than I imagine it was pretty bleak.

Until 10 years ago, women could not make a living as a professional basketball player. That means the girls in college right now or just entering the WNBA were the first ones to grow up with that as a goal. Do you think there ever would have been a Michael Jordan or a Kobe Bryant or a Lebron James if there wasn't an NBA to aspire to? Those kids would have put their time into something else. I think it'll be at least 10 more years before the talent level of the WNBA is on a scale with the NBA for that reason (not directly equivalent obviously, just relative). That hasn't been a viable career choice until very recently. Think about what the talent level in the NBA was in the 1960s compared to what it is now.

And women can dunk. There was all sorts of hoopla in LA when Candace Parker dunked for the first time in a WNBA game, but she's certainly not the only women's player who can dunk. And when this girl Brittney Griner gets to the WNBA, dunking might be a routine part of the game too. Sylvia Fowles was the first WNBA player to get called for goaltending this season. And then there's the girl who was kicked out of the boys' league because she was dominating them so thoroughly. The talent is coming down the pipeline.

So my point is, all of these are just excuses. People said they would watch women's basketball when women can dunk. Well they can. People say the games are too slow. The Phoenix Mercury averaged 89 ppg in 2007 when they won the championship. That's in a 40 minute game. Extrapolate that to 48 minutes and it's 106.8. More than any NBA team is averaging so far this season. People say all sorts of things to get around admitting that they just won't give it a chance.
 
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sactownfan

Guest
#59
OMG!!! ENOUGH WITH THE WNBA VS NBA!!! BACK TO THE POINT OF THIS THREAD!!!

I think that Avery Johnson could be a steal at this point. I think he's learned his lesson when it comes to being to controlling with the offense. He's had a year now to sit and think about it. Hes obviously a really smart guy and i would expect him to open up the offense moving forward since thats what got him fired. Players dont like to be told what to do every time down the floor.

Avery Johnson is without a doubt a defense first coach and was able to get even the lazy mavs to really step it up when he was there.

A former coach of the year! a defensive specialist! and again im sure he will be more willing to open it up on offense, especially if Petrie stresses that when hes hired. Petrie wont sign off on Avery unless he is willing to allow Petries offensive players to play their game.