My Take on Spencer Hawes

#1
Hello All, I've been away so I wasn't able to chime in on all of the discussion until now...from what I've read it's been quite the debate. :D Since the last thread was closed I believe that there should be at least one discussion about our only offseason move, hopefully more civility will be kept this time...so here we go.

I've made quite a few posts saying how Hawes was the most likely bust in this draft and that opinion has not changed. I've also made some posts discussing that this draft was really a 9-player draft and the Kings just missed out. I thought there was a chance one of those 9 might fall because Hawes or Wright would be taken higher, but that wasn't the case. Bottom Line: Hawes still is the most likely to bust, but he was the best player available at the time.

IMO Julian Wright is simply a poor man's Jeff Green and I don't believe he'll be anymore than a John Salmons type. Al Thornton was definitely intriguing but he's the ultimate tweener. Unless we go super run & gun ala Phoenix or Dallas where a SF can play PF such as Shawn Marion or Josh Howard then Thornton would have to play SF and the Kings already have an abundance of them. So here is my take on Hawes.

Strengths: If developed correctly with extensive playing time he could become a powerhouse on the offensive end in the form of a Tim Duncan with better range. Remember how effective Vlade was in his prime with simply a small hook, an up-and-under, and inconsistent jump shot? He was a 12-14 point per game player. Hawes has every post move you can think of, he has a variety of hook shots, drop steps, baseline one handers, turnaround and step back jumpers and consistent range out to 18 feet. Not to mention he is extremely coordinated handling the ball and using pump fakes to find an opening. Other than the outside jumper he is the complete opposite of Brad Miller offensively, Hawes should demand a double team everytime down the floor.

Weaknesses: Defense and shot blocking, I won't call these even close to a strength, but it's not Brad Miller bad either. Hawes works hard on the defensive end (unlike Miller), he just doesn't have the quickness or athleticism to consistently stop penetration and sometimes he is late for the help defense. He won't be a dominant shot blocker either but expect one a game. How much this can be improved I'm not sure, you can't teach athleticism.

The biggest concern here and it's a major one is his rebounding and it's flat out poor. He only had three game last season with 10 or more and I believe had around 10 games with less than 5. He just never seems to be in position for rebounds and unlike his post defense he does seem to lack effort in this department. I do think with his length, size, and coordination that this could be improved upon with good coaching...remember that he is only 19 years old.
 
#2
I think that's a fair assessment. At 10, they really needed one of the other 9 to fall (actually 8, because I didn't want Green from the start). Unfortunately, that didn't happen. The other two most realistic options at 10 (J. Wright and Thorton) certainly don't seem like locks. Even if they are successful, they are tweeners, which could more likely be filled in the future. I think Hawes was the best option on the table, but agree he could bust. Given his age, I think it will be 2 to 3 years before we can really tell.
 
#3
You can't teach athleticism. That's sounds so right but I'm sure if he diet properly, developed his core strength, lose weight by lowering body fat, etc he'll add a little hop to his step. On defense and rebounding Hawes doesn't look quick enough but he can improve his technique. Duncan doesn't look athletic and he's very good on both ends. His shotblock timing is good as well as his rotation timing on defense. Can only hope someone is there to help Hawes develop.
 

Gary

All-Star
#4
I will say this again as I had said in other threads. While I don't really like the pick because I would have rather see the Kings go after DeAndre Jordan next year, I do know that Hawes isn' brought in to solve any short term problems.

I think rebounding position can be taught. This can up his rebounds to 8-10 per game (on his size alone) depending on how well he accepts it. Positioning is a major part in his learning to rebound. I didn't see as many of his games as I would like, but that was the major knock on him. He is such an offensive player that he would take himself out of position in order to run the floor. This will not happen in the NBA. While the game is faster tehre are tricks to get positioning than run the floor after a quick pass.

But I am willing to give the guy a chance. Plus I know DeAndre Jordan can be a 7'0 PF as well because he is athletic. So I am willing to give Hawes the benefit of the doubt and see how well the coaches teach him.

As for blocked shots though, I don't think he will ever average more than 1.0-1.3 a game.
 
#5
I will say this again as I had said in other threads. While I don't really like the pick because I would have rather see the Kings go after DeAndre Jordan next year, I do know that Hawes isn' brought in to solve any short term problems.

I think rebounding position can be taught. This can up his rebounds to 8-10 per game (on his size alone) depending on how well he accepts it. Positioning is a major part in his learning to rebound. I didn't see as many of his games as I would like, but that was the major knock on him. He is such an offensive player that he would take himself out of position in order to run the floor. This will not happen in the NBA. While the game is faster tehre are tricks to get positioning than run the floor after a quick pass.

But I am willing to give the guy a chance. Plus I know DeAndre Jordan can be a 7'0 PF as well because he is athletic. So I am willing to give Hawes the benefit of the doubt and see how well the coaches teach him.

As for blocked shots though, I don't think he will ever average more than 1.0-1.3 a game.
Jordan can definitely be a PF, he needs to add quite a bit of skills within the next year for me to be high on him though. He's just long and athletic right now.
 
#6
Jordan can definitely be a PF, he needs to add quite a bit of skills within the next year for me to be high on him though. He's just long and athletic right now.

I actually really like Darrel Arthur to compliment Hawes next year. He is athletic, he's 6'9''(probably 6'10'' in shoes, I know before the season started Horford/B. Wright were listed at 6'9'' also), he has a good mid range J, he's a good shotblocker, he's a good rebounder, and he has some post moves. I think he has star potential and he would compliment Hawes.

Also like Dante Greene who is more like a poor man's Durant.
 
#7
I actually really like Darrel Arthur to compliment Hawes next year. He is athletic, he's 6'9''(probably 6'10'' in shoes, I know before the season started Horford/B. Wright were listed at 6'9'' also), he has a good mid range J, he's a good shotblocker, he's a good rebounder, and he has some post moves. I think he has star potential and he would compliment Hawes.

Also like Dante Greene who is more like a poor man's Durant.
A poor man's Durant is Shard Lewis. I like Arthur as well but I'd have to see how Jordan projects until I say I like Arthur more. I'm sure both would be fine additions.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#8
Okay, so is this a discussion of Spencer Hawes or should it be in the Personnel Moves forum as a discussion of potential players for next year?

...sigh...












;)
 

Gary

All-Star
#9
^^^ SHHHSH!

I was trying to keep the discussion away from Hawes a bit so all the flames wouldn't start rolling in ;) but yah.. Hawes will be fine if paired with the likes of a PF that can block some shots, and rebound the ball.
 
#10
^^^ SHHHSH!

I was trying to keep the discussion away from Hawes a bit so all the flames wouldn't start rolling in ;) but yah.. Hawes will be fine if paired with the likes of a PF that can block some shots, and rebound the ball.
Justin Williams. :)
 
#11
Much of the debate on Hawes seems to be on skills vs. athleticism.

Some people say that athleticism cannot be taught. And while I generally agree with that, athleticism can be improved.

Superstars have everything you want, skills, athleticism and of course, the intangibles. Speaking purley in terms of non-superstars, most guys enter the league either more athletic, or more skilled, and others are more avereaged out, not really strong or weak in either area.

For guys that are more athletic, they have to work on their skills game in order to stick around. If Justin Williams wants to get significant minutes off the bench, before of even dreaming of becoming a starter, he needs to continue to do the things he does well - rebounding, shot-altering - but he also needs to improve his skills game. First thing is free-throws. Teams are going to continue to challenge him to "make 'em pay" for putting Justin at the line. If Justin can improve his free-throw shooting, to the point where he is not a liability, then he will earn more minutes. The minimum IMO, is 50% FT shooting. Of course it would be nice if Justin could develop a post-game, but at this point I'll be happy with the FT shooting. Baby steps.

Now back to Hawes. He is an example of a guy that is much more skilled than he is athletic. But where some people think that athleticism cannot be improved, I disagree. Just like the antithesis, I believe athleticism can be improved. Especially to the point where he will not be a liability. It will take a lot of work, but it is no different than putting work into improving skills. Plyometrics, weight training, diet and lifestyle is the 4 pronged approach I would take. Plyometrics are simple. Allow wikipedia to help define plyometrics:

Plyometrics is a type of exercise that uses explosive movements to develop muscular power, the ability to generate a large amount of force quickly. It may be used, for example, to improve the effectiveness of a boxer's punch, or to quicken the throwing ability of a baseball pitcher. Plyometric training acts on both the musculotendinous and neurological levels to increase an athlete's power output without necessarily increasing their maximum strength output.

PHYSICS OF PLYOMETRICS
Muscular power is determined by how long it takes for strength to be converted into speed. The ability to convert strength to speed in a very short time allows for athletic movements beyond what raw strength will allow. Thus an athlete who has strong legs and can perform the freeweight squat with extremely heavy weights over a long duration may get less distance on a standing long jump or height on a vertical leap than a weaker athlete who is able to generate a smaller amount of force in a shorter amount of time. Though the plyometrically trained athlete has a lower maximal force output and may not squat as much, training allows them to compress the time required to reach their maximum force output, allowing them to develop more power with each contraction.

If you want to read more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyometrics

Weight training is the next main component. Hawes has been reported to have weak legs. When you grow up bigger than most of the kids around you, you probably don't need to weight-train in high school in order to compete. So he got by. I think if anyone knows he needs to bulk up, it is Spencer Hawes himself. Looking at various videos, it is clear that he has a nice frame, he just needs some more muscle mass. He should (and probably will) get stronger in his upper-body. But in terms of attempting to improve athleticism, the key is clearly his legs. Coupled with plyometrics, weight training will help to deliver more power, quicker. That should effectively improve Spencer's athleticism.

Diet and lifestlye are factors as well. I wonder what his diet is like now that he doesn't have his mother to cook for him. Anyway, the best way for Spencer to get the most out of weight-training and plyometrics is to have a solid diet and adequite sleep. Fortunately, he is only 19, so he won't be flirting with bars/clubs for at least a couple years.



There are a lot of things that need to happen to effectively improve athleticism. But in my opinion, it is more than possible. With proper coaching, and Spencer's active participation in the 4-pronged approach I laid out, there is no reason I see that he can't become a non-liability defensively.
If anything, he would become a better rebounder. Shotblocking is different.

I like thinking of shotblocking ability in terms of altered-shot more, because the stat sheet might not show true shot-altering ability. A shotblock is a 100% clean altered-shot. That doesn't mean that shot-altering is not effective. I will be happy if Spencer can alter at least 3-4 shots per game, even if they don't all show up as blocks in the statsheet. With his high basketball IQ, and if he improves his athleticism as laid out above, there is no reason, in my opinion, to believe that he can't become a decent enough shot-alterer.


Of course the cards all like in Spencer's hands. He controls his own future. If he works at it, he can become a steal at the #10. It is about work ethic and dedication. Only time will tell. Personally, I like the prospect, Spencer Hawes.


I really hope I'm not the guy that everyone hates for bringing this up. I really just feel compelled to share my personal thoughts about athleticism.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#12
Much of the debate on Hawes seems to be on skills vs. athleticism.

Some people say that athleticism cannot be taught. And while I generally agree with that, athleticism can be improved.

Superstars have everything you want, skills, athleticism and of course, the intangibles. Speaking purley in terms of non-superstars, most guys enter the league either more athletic, or more skilled, and others are more avereaged out, not really strong or weak in either area.

For guys that are more athletic, they have to work on their skills game in order to stick around. If Justin Williams wants to get significant minutes off the bench, before of even dreaming of becoming a starter, he needs to continue to do the things he does well - rebounding, shot-altering - but he also needs to improve his skills game. First thing is free-throws. Teams are going to continue to challenge him to "make 'em pay" for putting Justin at the line. If Justin can improve his free-throw shooting, to the point where he is not a liability, then he will earn more minutes. The minimum IMO, is 50% FT shooting. Of course it would be nice if Justin could develop a post-game, but at this point I'll be happy with the FT shooting. Baby steps.

Now back to Hawes. He is an example of a guy that is much more skilled than he is athletic. But where some people think that athleticism cannot be improved, I disagree. Just like the antithesis, I believe athleticism can be improved. Especially to the point where he will not be a liability. It will take a lot of work, but it is no different than putting work into improving skills. Plyometrics, weight training, diet and lifestyle is the 4 pronged approach I would take. Plyometrics are simple. Allow wikipedia to help define plyometrics:

Plyometrics is a type of exercise that uses explosive movements to develop muscular power, the ability to generate a large amount of force quickly. It may be used, for example, to improve the effectiveness of a boxer's punch, or to quicken the throwing ability of a baseball pitcher. Plyometric training acts on both the musculotendinous and neurological levels to increase an athlete's power output without necessarily increasing their maximum strength output.

PHYSICS OF PLYOMETRICS
Muscular power is determined by how long it takes for strength to be converted into speed. The ability to convert strength to speed in a very short time allows for athletic movements beyond what raw strength will allow. Thus an athlete who has strong legs and can perform the freeweight squat with extremely heavy weights over a long duration may get less distance on a standing long jump or height on a vertical leap than a weaker athlete who is able to generate a smaller amount of force in a shorter amount of time. Though the plyometrically trained athlete has a lower maximal force output and may not squat as much, training allows them to compress the time required to reach their maximum force output, allowing them to develop more power with each contraction.

If you want to read more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyometrics

Weight training is the next main component. Hawes has been reported to have weak legs. When you grow up bigger than most of the kids around you, you probably don't need to weight-train in high school in order to compete. So he got by. I think if anyone knows he needs to bulk up, it is Spencer Hawes himself. Looking at various videos, it is clear that he has a nice frame, he just needs some more muscle mass. He should (and probably will) get stronger in his upper-body. But in terms of attempting to improve athleticism, the key is clearly his legs. Coupled with plyometrics, weight training will help to deliver more power, quicker. That should effectively improve Spencer's athleticism.

Diet and lifestlye are factors as well. I wonder what his diet is like now that he doesn't have his mother to cook for him. Anyway, the best way for Spencer to get the most out of weight-training and plyometrics is to have a solid diet and adequite sleep. Fortunately, he is only 19, so he won't be flirting with bars/clubs for at least a couple years.



There are a lot of things that need to happen to effectively improve athleticism. But in my opinion, it is more than possible. With proper coaching, and Spencer's active participation in the 4-pronged approach I laid out, there is no reason I see that he can't become a non-liability defensively.
If anything, he would become a better rebounder. Shotblocking is different.

I like thinking of shotblocking ability in terms of altered-shot more, because the stat sheet might not show true shot-altering ability. A shotblock is a 100% clean altered-shot. That doesn't mean that shot-altering is not effective. I will be happy if Spencer can alter at least 3-4 shots per game, even if they don't all show up as blocks in the statsheet. With his high basketball IQ, and if he improves his athleticism as laid out above, there is no reason, in my opinion, to believe that he can't become a decent enough shot-alterer.


Of course the cards all like in Spencer's hands. He controls his own future. If he works at it, he can become a steal at the #10. It is about work ethic and dedication. Only time will tell. Personally, I like the prospect, Spencer Hawes.


I really hope I'm not the guy that everyone hates for bringing this up. I really just feel compelled to share my personal thoughts about athleticism.
Nice post. I seriously doubt anyone would "hate you" for taking the time to write it up and post it.
 
#15
spencer hawes is only 19 and with only 1 year on his resume he has some serious skills/potential, if he can learn how to block shots, and learn the right positioning for rebounds he could be a legit player, even though i first thought he was going to be a bust, i step back looked at the kids situation, and he seems like he's going to turn out to be a good all around player, not many big men come along with fine offensive skills the reason why i have my doubts about him though is because the ncaa is a cakewalk compared to the nba.
 
#17
This kid is a blank page, can't get any better than that.
If you say he's a blank page then you are ignoring his positive qualities that got him drafted at #10 in the first place. Why not just be honest?

Looks like the Kings could have a great low post scorer for the years to come on their hands, something not every team can claim.
 
#18
Athleticism can definitely be improved. Lebron developed a very noticeable hop to his step after summer training in high school. Carmelo lost noticeable weight and seemed to have worked speifically on core strength. He's much quicker now compared to his first two years. Caron Butler hired a cook for his diet and he's improved this year. If the Kings decide to put Hawes on some kind of physical training he'll improve. I think it's a matter of if the Kings are willing to invest in him and does Hawes know what to do for himself regardless.
 
#19
Athleticism can definitely be improved. Lebron developed a very noticeable hop to his step after summer training in high school. Carmelo lost noticeable weight and seemed to have worked speifically on core strength. He's much quicker now compared to his first two years. Caron Butler hired a cook for his diet and he's improved this year. If the Kings decide to put Hawes on some kind of physical training he'll improve. I think it's a matter of if the Kings are willing to invest in him and does Hawes know what to do for himself regardless.
That's true, but it is still all relative. The question is if Hawes' can be improved to an acceptable level of athleticism. And, I think an acceptable level of athleticism depends on the style of play we are looking to implement going forward.
 
#21
Much of the debate on Hawes seems to be on skills vs. athleticism. Some people say that athleticism cannot be taught. And while I generally agree with that, athleticism can be improved.
Just wanted to say that I appreciate your thoughtful post.
And that I am reminded how much Pete Chilcutt was able to improve his vertical leap via appropriate exercises & weight training. (I can't remember how much it improved, but it was something like double the vertical leap he had when he joined the team - an awesome improvement.)
 
#22
Nice post BawLa, and while I was one to say that athleticism can't be taught I totally agree with you that it can be improved with enough effort. As you said it is all in Hawes' hands, it all depends on how much he wants to be a great player.
 
#23
Well I guess drafting Spencer Hawes would make Mike Bibby look good... (I guess). He (Hawes) does fit in the Kings style of play, but definitely not an aid to our weakness w/c is rebounding and defense.... well he promised he will rebound... we just wait and see :)
 

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
#24
Spencer's first game in the summer league was very good, for a first summer league game. Offensive skills he seems to have. On defense he can move his feet and stay with his big man, in this case the Chinese draftee Yi at #6. He had 19pts and 7 reb in 34 min which is OK considering the much weaker Chinese team. Justin had 17 pts and 11 reb but shot only 3/8 FT.

Hawes will get more agressive as he gets more strength and spends more time down low.

Deviating off to Justin for a moment, he was much more agressive this summer than last. Half a dozen times under the basket he was fighting for rebounds and got many of his points from offensive rebounds. The rest were from feeds from the guards.

It's only one game and seen on tiny webcast, hard to see details. Am looking forward to first hand view on Tuesday.
 
#25
Spencer's first game in the summer league was very good, for a first summer league game. Offensive skills he seems to have. On defense he can move his feet and stay with his big man, in this case the Chinese draftee Yi at #6. He had 19pts and 7 reb in 34 min which is OK considering the much weaker Chinese team. Justin had 17 pts and 11 reb but shot only 3/8 FT.

Hawes will get more agressive as he gets more strength and spends more time down low.

Deviating off to Justin for a moment, he was much more agressive this summer than last. Half a dozen times under the basket he was fighting for rebounds and got many of his points from offensive rebounds. The rest were from feeds from the guards.

It's only one game and seen on tiny webcast, hard to see details. Am looking forward to first hand view on Tuesday.
I agree with your observations and was pleasantly surprised with Hawes' composure in his first pro game. Though it may be the summer league, if Williams keeps playing well, our expectations of him are going to be pretty high. He may not develop into the starter we need at PF, but he may become part of the core. Needs help with his free throw shooting, though. Otherwise he'll be a liability late in the game. You can tell he's been working on it, but he needs some special help.
 
#27
I'm too young to know any better, but someone wrote a letter to the Bee comparing Hawes to Bill Walton. Is this remotely accurate?
 
#28
I'm too young to know any better, but someone wrote a letter to the Bee comparing Hawes to Bill Walton. Is this remotely accurate?
Of course not, because 19 year old Hawes has done virtually nothing yet in his blank sheet NBA career plus, he only had one year of NCAA basketball. Walton won 2 NCAA championships, was on a UCLA team that won 88 straight games, won an NBA championship, is in the Hall of Fame, and was named one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history.
 
#29
Of course not, because 19 year old Hawes has done virtually nothing yet in his blank sheet NBA career plus, he only had one year of NCAA basketball. Walton won 2 NCAA championships, was on a UCLA team that won 88 straight games, won an NBA championship, is in the Hall of Fame, and was named one of the 50 greatest players in NBA history.
So what you're saying is Hawes > Walton, but just by a little? ;-)