Does Petrie Still Have It?...

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

The Warriors are going to be pushing a 70 million dollar payroll, are capped out until the end of the 10/11 season...

And are a borderline playoff team...

What's to like?

Hardly. Their playoff hopes obviously hinge on Baron Davis' back, but they won 58 percent of their games when he was healthy: they were on track to win 48-50 games. To say nothing of the fact of how they've clearly improved since the trade.

And, as Dallas has shown, it's alright to be over the cap as long as you're good. If they continue to improve, as I expect they shall, it won't matter that they're capped out.

 

[Superman]

And, as Dallas has shown, it's alright to be over the cap as long as you're good. If they continue to improve, as I expect they shall, it won't matter that they're capped out.

Only question about the Warriors is their lack of an elite big man. Jury is still out on Biedrins, if you ask me. He looks promising, but I don't know if he's gonna be good enough.

Dirk isn't necessarily big, but he causes matchup problems against every team in the NBA. The Warriors don't have that type of player.

 

[Jerryaki]

maybe it's all semantics. i think petrie has done a good job in the past. but that was in the past, and while his talent/genius may not have changed, the NBA landscape certainly has. whether you chalk it up to petrie, the maloofs interference, or the change in competence of the GMS around the league (the ones with players that matter, anyway), the bottom line is the same: petrie's effectiveness has diminished.

 

[Kingster]

I think we're gonna have to wait at least two or three years before we even get out of the first round, not to mention make noise late in the playoffs.

And that's if everybody - including Petrie, the Maloofs, the new coach (crosses fingers) - handles their assignments near perfectly. Let us make a significant mistake, and you'll see this fan base disintegrate as we fail to contend year after year after year.

What I wonder about is whether fan support comes down strictly to the win-loss columns, or whether they would be willing to withstand losing teams for the next 2-3 years if we did blow it and go with youth. We had the worst of both worlds this year - (1) a losing team, and (2) a team made up mostly of veterans who either aren't getting better or are getting worse. The vets were the guys who were boring to watch. If we unload the boring unathletic vets and go young, will the fan base hold?

 

[Kingster]

Only question about the Warriors is their lack of an elite big man. Jury is still out on Biedrins, if you ask me. He looks promising, but I don't know if he's gonna be good enough.

Dirk isn't necessarily big, but he causes matchup problems against every team in the NBA. The Warriors don't have that type of player.

If Biedrins isn't good enough for them, then I'd certainly create a spot for him with the Kings. Warriors: Name your price!

 

[love_them_kings]

What Petrie did for this team was great, and I remember it fondly, but no, I'm not beholden to any sort of blind faith that he can do it again. What he's done in the past four years or so hasn't impressed me much, if at all and, closed purse strings or not, just because he was great yesterday doesn't mean that he's going to be great tomorrow.

.

I agree 100%. I will always be greatful to GP for creating the team that played some of the best basketball I have ever seen.

But, I am not impressed with many of the things that have happened over the last several years. While it can be argued that the Maloofs may be holding the reins, isn't part of the GM's job to protect the owners from themselves? Either way, just like the creation of that magical team happened under GP's watch, so did the destruction, and that is a lot more recent.

I honestly don't know if GP still has "it" or not. I do know that I am hoping that this off season GP will prove he has some of his magic left, and makes some moves that make all of us doubters fall on our knees yelling "in Petrie I trust".

Of course I was hoping that at the close of last season too, and look where it got us.

 

[sidney]

Unless the Maloofs can get West to replace Petrie, there is no point in replacing him.

It's funny how now everyone talks fondly of Adelman and his 8 striaght playoff appearances now that we have a garbage coach. Well...Petrie put together 8 straight teams that went to the playoffs too.

I have no doubt that if he was replaced many on this board would long for the day that Petrie was here

 

[kupman]

It's funny how now everyone talks fondly of Adelman and his 8 striaght playoff appearances now that we have a garbage coach. Well...Petrie put together 8 straight teams that went to the playoffs too.

I have no doubt that if he was replaced many on this board would long for the day that Petrie was here

Very well put.

 

[Emma]

I think that one of Petrie's problems is that there are too many teams in the NBA. There just isn't enought elite talent to go around, or to make it interesting enough to watch at all times.

Add to that the fact that these teams are just
throwing armored trucks full of money at 20 year
olds who will (unfortunately), as a result never
have to strain to reach a life goal again, and you get
potentially elite stars becoming complacent.

The NBA needs to go the way of the NFL with unguaranteed money.

I don't think it's Petrie's fault. The NBA talent pool is drying up.

 

[Ryle]

But you are conviniently forgetting that the the time Vlade was a free agent, Clippers made a huge play for him so if it was a "close to home" excuse you are giving up there, then you are WAY off base.

He could hace returned to LA if that was his reasoning. Instead he came to a franchise that has been as much of a laughing stock as the Clippers at the time.

Please....we weren't good but the Clippers only won 17 games the year before and had nothing on the horizon. We had the cap space and had just traded for an extremely talented PF who could pair up with Vlade and make a nice frontcourt(one of the best in the game). Or you could go to the Clippers and back up Olowkandi and play next to Loy Vaught.....tough choice.

 

[Jerryaki]

Unless the Maloofs can get West to replace Petrie, there is no point in replacing him.

It's funny how now everyone talks fondly of Adelman and his 8 striaght playoff appearances now that we have a garbage coach. Well...Petrie put together 8 straight teams that went to the playoffs too.

I have no doubt that if he was replaced many on this board would long for the day that Petrie was here

replace him with bryan colangelo and i would be all for that.

the point is, petrie has talent, but he's not the best anymore, certainly.

 

[sidney]

replace him with bryan colangelo and i would be all for that.

the point is, petrie has talent, but he's not the best anymore, certainly.

sure, if he was available. But he's not. That's like saying it was a good idea to get rid of Adelman because Phil Jackson, Pop, Avery, and Sloan were all better. Doesn't matter because we're sifting through Muss types to replace him. We were fortunate to even have a top 5 coach in our small market.

After letting go a top 5-10 coach last year because he didn't get us all the way was a mistake. Getting rid of a top 10 GM without a proven replacement seems like a mistake as well. All I'm saying. History matters for coaches, owners, and GMs...not so much for players.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Maybe a GM is only great for five years at a time, then.

I definitely understand your point of view, but to say that guys like Mike D'Antoni and Chris Mullin are better than Geoff Petrie is something I can't understand. They haven't done anything that he didn't do when we were on the way up. And yes, it was several years ago, but it's obvious that the men he answers to have changed his job description drastically. It was, for several years: do what it takes to get us to the top, we don't care if we're paying $25 million in luxury taxes. Now it's: let's keep the payroll manageable, try to get in the playoffs, and let's wait and see what happens with this arena situation.

The reason I give Petrie the benefit of the doubt is because he's shown the ability to do exactly what we want him to do right now. He's only been asked to do it once before, and he came through. It's not like he's been sitting around saying "I am the Great Geoff Petrie, just look at the Webber trade and the Vlade signing, now bow to me!" And you may call those luck, but I considered them to be calculated risks that, along with many other decisions he made, made the Kings an elite team. D'Antoni and Mullin haven't even done that yet. At least Dumars and Buford have won championships. Just because those GMs have better teams right now doesn't mean that they are better than Petrie. I'd take Jerry West over all of them, other than Buford and maybe Colangelo. And the Grizzlies have never been an elite team in the five years he's been there. You can throw Donny Nelson in the mix as well.

I'm content to see what he's going to do, now that we're obviously in need of some magic. It's not blind faith at all. Let's see what happens if he gets the green light to tear down and start over. But there's not too much you can expect out of someone when the mandate from ownership doesn't put a premium on having an elite squad.

I think colangelo is the best gm in the nba hands down, but I admit I'm not familiar with many gm's. He can just flat out build a team and an identity like nothing and that's what we need. We need Petrie to build something with a consistent vision like he did with the vlade era. I don't think Petrie is a great GM, but if the Maloofs let him to his work I think he'd be the best realistic option we have for the job. He can start by getting a good coach!!!!

 

[CaminoChaos]

I don't think alot of the decisions made the last few seasons have been Petrie's. I believe the Maloof's have more to do with the downfall.

I belive if Petrie make 100% of the decisions then were not having this conversation.

 

[kupman]

B.C is a really good GM, but enough of the love affair already. I would not dump GP for him or anyone else. B.C. is the man of the hour right now and people will be talking about some other brilliant GM in the future.

Bottom line: we already have on of the best GMs in the game - we should be counting our blessings.

 

[nbrans]

I think colangelo is the best gm in the nba hands down, but I admit I'm not familiar with many gm's. He can just flat out build a team and an identity like nothing and that's what we need. We need Petrie to build something with a consistent vision like he did with the vlade era. I don't Petrie is a great GM, but if the Maloofs let him to his work I think he'd be the best realistic option we have for the job. He can start by getting a good coach!!!!

Colangelo is the flavor of the moment, but he's made his share of stinker trades (Kidd for Marbury -- he even extended Marbury, QRich for Kurt Thomas, Steve Nash for Martin Mursapp, Bubba Wells, Pat Garrity and a 1st ). Essentially he's made a living out of bilking idiot GMs -- Isiah Thomas: Marbury for McDyess's expiring, which allowed the Nash signing, and Billy Knight: Joe Johnson for Diaw and 2 firsts. Kudos, definitely, but I think both of those rest more on the idiocy of Thomas and Knight than Colangelo's genius.
As for his Raptor tenure, the jury is still very much out on Villanueva for TJ Ford (the better point Raptor was already on the roster -- Jose Calderon) and Williams/Bonner for Rasho. The foreign signings were good, but we'll see where they go from here.

And ultimately, Colangelo's teams haven't gotten any farther than Petrie's, so I really don't see why he should be regarded as the better GM.

 

[Warhawk]

But, I am not impressed with many of the things that have happened over the last several years. While it can be argued that the Maloofs may be holding the reins, isn't part of the GM's job to protect the owners from themselves? Either way, just like the creation of that magical team happened under GP's watch, so did the destruction, and that is a lot more recent.

I really see both sides of this issue but:

a. Is GP better off here or as a GM somewhere else?

He likes the Maloofs and they spent big (too big unfortunately, and it's killing us now) to get to the brink of winning it all. They want to win. In general, he's been a good GM with the Maloofs as owners. They apparently work pretty well together.

b. Will the Maloofs step back and let GP run things?

I'm sure all of you have had the situation where a supervisor/owner has gone against your recommendations and it bit them in the rear. They are saying all the right things right now. But have they learned? They, as owners, have the right to do whatever they want. Doesn't mean they should. Will they let him take more of a lead in the coach situation, too? How do you protect the owners from themselves if they don't think they are a problem? And until recently I don't think they have been.

c. What will happen with the arena situation?

Frankly, I think this is key. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that this is the major factor in the decline of recent years. Without a long-term solution, I think the Maloofs are getting back to being more fiscally responsible (getting under the luxury tax) in case no agreement can be reached on getting an arena deal done. They have made a few mistakes, but they have been screwed over royally by the actions of the city/county for the past 6+ years as they have been trying to get something done to stay. If something gets sorted out that guarantees them staying, I bet they open the wallet again once they are sure they can make a profit. They are fans and they are gamblers. They are also businessmen. No sense in throwing good $$$ after bad right now if they might have to sell/move the team if no arena deal is resolved.

d. What track do they want to take with the team?

Do they blow it up or try to work with what they have for a bit longer? Common sense says to take some explosives to the team and get what you can. Problem is, with several overweight contracts, it can be hard to get ANYTHING in return. We may be stuck with most of these guys for the next couple years. That may look bad on GP in the short term, but if nobody is willing to trade, there is no deal. For example: much as we'd like to rid ourselves of KT's contract, who in their right mind would take him? What would it take to do so (add picks or Martin)? Would we want to do that? Would anyone else bite on it if we did? What do we do in the draft? Does GP try to move the pick around or just get someone there? Again, are there any takers if we wanted to move in that direction? Too many opinions here where it's easy to go in the trade machine and see if salaries line up but in real life there is no way the other GMs would touch it. That doesn't mean GP isn't doing his job, just that his job is very difficult to do without Jedi mind tricks.





Not sure of the point of all this, but I just had a nice big lunch of teriyaki chicken and steamed rice and felt like rambling....

 

[Bricklayer]

It's funny how now everyone talks fondly of Adelman and his 8 striaght playoff appearances now that we have a garbage coach. Well...Petrie put together 8 straight teams that went to the playoffs too.

I think the difference being that our winning directly coincided with the arrival and the departure of that coach. Meanwhile Geoff was around for years before Rick arrived, and all we got out of it was one sub .500 8th seed, and Geoff is still around, and here we are out again.

All of which is not to say that I want Geoff gone...I'm not going to beat that drum unless he puts together another real stinker of an offseason in this our hour of greatest need. But it is to say that you can be a lottery team with Geoff as your GM, and his theory on our slow death rebuild here has flat out sucked. He was 8 of 8 while Rick was here, but something like 1 of 5(?) without him. So yeah, you could do a lot worse, and who the Maloofs might hire if Geoff left is frankly frightening, but Geoff's record is NOT one of 100% uninterrupted success. We've seen him struggle and fail. We've also seen him have a glorious golden age. Until/unless we see him screwing up what should be a major overhaul here I'm going to cross my fingers and hope for the new golden age from a guy who did it once before, but his record is not nearly as tefloned as it is made out to be.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Colangelo is the flavor of the moment, but he's made his share of stinker trades (Kidd for Marbury, QRich for Kurt Thomas). Essentially he's made a living out of bilking idiot GMs -- Isiah Thomas: Marbury for Penny's expiring, which allowed the Nash signing, and Billy Knight: Joe Johnson for Diaw and 2 firsts. Kudos, definitely, but I think both of those rest more on the idiocy of Thomas and Knight than Colangelo's genius.

As for his Raptor tenure, the jury is still very much out on Villanueva for TJ Ford (the better point Raptor was already on the roster -- Jose Calderon) and Williams/Bonner for Rasho. The foreign signings were good, but we'll see where they go from here.

And ultimately, Colangelo's teams haven't gotten any farther than Petrie's, so I really don't see why he should be regarded as the better GM.

I think it's because he's done it with one team and it looks like he's about to do with another team. Kidd for Marbury was a stinker, that's true. Qrich for Thomas? I don't know all the circumstances surrounding that but Thomas is pretty important to their team right now that lacks post defense and strength. He's a valuable piece for the suns at the moment IMO. I just have a lot of respect for GM's who can truly build and know how to piece together a working system even if hasn't been the most successul system historically in terms of championships. Maybe Petrie hasn't been given a tremendous opportunity to show off what he's made of because of the Maloofs, but there's something to be said about having enough jiz to stand up to the owner(s) which doesn't seem to be the case for Geoff

 

[GoGoGadget]

I don't think alot of the decisions made the last few seasons have been Petrie's. I believe the Maloof's have more to do with the downfall.

I belive if Petrie make 100% of the decisions then were not having this conversation.

Could be.

But I, personally, would find his decision to stick around with tied hands every bit as troubling as just not being very good at his job. If the Maloofs are truly calling the shots to the point a lot of people suspect, time to either demand the ability to do your job without interference or walk before your reputation gets hurt.

Been my problem with the meddling Maloofs excuse for a while, actually. I don't think Petrie's a horrible GM by any means (in fact think the only problem has been that he was built up too much initially, and not that his fall from grace has been that huge), but either he's severely dropped the ball over the last few years, or he hasn't got the backbone necessary to fight for what he believes is right. Either option is problematic in the person running the show.

 

[fnordius]

I see two ways of looking at the Petrie issue (as well as, of course, an infinite number of shades of grey in between).

1. He isn't doing a very good job,

or

2. He isn't making the most fundamental decisions, the Maloofs are messing things up.

Because, for us, management and the owners have to be viewed as an amorphous and mysterious blob, it doesn't matter very much which one is true. The combination of Maloofs + Petrie has not been good lately, and Petrie's managerial mojo is in decline in one way or the other.

By now our contracts are such a mess that only a manager who was supremely skilled and confident could fix things in less than 4 years. A guy who is willing to take big risks for big rewards, who is not hesitant to tell his employer when they are wrong, who has too much pride to collect a paycheck for being an ineffective yes man. The NBA is changing, and that's important, but the climate with the Maloofs seems to be changing even faster.

In short, I suspect that Petrie has the brains to pull this off, but lacks the 'nads. I don't think he's willing to tell the Maloofs to shut up and let him do his job.

If letting the Maloofs burn their own hands for the last few years has gotten the job done, then it's a maybe, his biggest obstacles will be those g-dawful contracts, and the fact that nobody wants to talk trades with him anymore. If the Maloofs haven't learned their lesson, then they will need to hire a GM who they will listen to and respect from the get-go. The Maloofs are just basketball amateurs who made an investment; they need to be constantly reminded of that.

We will get a better idea this summer, but for now, my money is on an immediate improvement from a new coach, followed by nothing more than gradual, incremental changes over 3-4 years. I don't forsee the Kings in the WCF between now and 2011, if then.

 

[Jerryaki]

sure, if he was available. But he's not. That's like saying it was a good idea to get rid of Adelman because Phil Jackson, Pop, Avery, and Sloan were all better. Doesn't matter because we're sifting through Muss types to replace him. We were fortunate to even have a top 5 coach in our small market.

After letting go a top 5-10 coach last year because he didn't get us all the way was a mistake. Getting rid of a top 10 GM without a proven replacement seems like a mistake as well. All I'm saying. History matters for coaches, owners, and GMs...not so much for players.

points taken. technically though, colangelo "wasn't available" when the raptors lifted him too.

while i agree that we're going to need a better GM if we replace petrie, i just don't see him as some fabulous top tier GM anymore. these past few seasons...just, no.

ETA: fnordius has vocalized my thoughts very succinctly.

 

[VF21]

IIn short, I suspect that Petrie has the brains to pull this off, but lacks the 'nads. I don't think he's willing to tell the Maloofs to shut up and let him do his job.

I have to laugh at this assumption, because everyone acts as if they know what's gone on between the Maloofs and Petrie.

It's been the fans who have made a lot of assumptions about what this season was supposed to accomplish. And I think, for the most part, those assumptions - especially early in the year - were wrong.

I think it's insulting to Petrie to make the "lacks the 'nads" type comment, especially when I could count on one hand and have at least four fingers left over the number of people on this board who might have actual experience in dealing with this type of situation.

The Maloofs and Petrie, from most reports, have a good working relationship. And dealing with the owners is obviously something every GM has to put up with, some more than others of course and some more publicly than others.

The bottom line is that I firmly believe people are attributing things to both the Maloofs and to Geoff Petrie that they couldn't possibly really know. And I think it's unfair to make derogatory comments based on those kinds of assumptions.

/end of rant

 

[kupman]

I have to laugh at this assumption, because everyone acts as if they know what's gone on between the Maloofs and Petrie.

It's been the fans who have made a lot of assumptions about what this season was supposed to accomplish. And I think, for the most part, those assumptions - especially early in the year - were wrong.

I think it's insulting to Petrie to make the "lacks the 'nads" type comment, especially when I could count on one hand and have at least four fingers left over the number of people on this board who might have actual experience in dealing with this type of situation.

The Maloofs and Petrie, from most reports, have a good working relationship. And dealing with the owners is obviously something every GM has to put up with, some more than others of course and some more publicly than others.

The bottom line is that I firmly believe people are attributing things to both the Maloofs and to Geoff Petrie that they couldn't possibly really know. And I think it's unfair to make derogatory comments based on those kinds of assumptions.

/end of rant

No freaking kidding.....please continue

 

[Jerryaki]

I have to laugh at this assumption, because everyone acts as if they know what's gone on between the Maloofs and Petrie.

It's been the fans who have made a lot of assumptions about what this season was supposed to accomplish. And I think, for the most part, those assumptions - especially early in the year - were wrong.

I think it's insulting to Petrie to make the "lacks the 'nads" type comment, especially when I could count on one hand and have at least four fingers left over the number of people on this board who might have actual experience in dealing with this type of situation.

The Maloofs and Petrie, from most reports, have a good working relationship. And dealing with the owners is obviously something every GM has to put up with, some more than others of course and some more publicly than others.

The bottom line is that I firmly believe people are attributing things to both the Maloofs and to Geoff Petrie that they couldn't possibly really know. And I think it's unfair to make derogatory comments based on those kinds of assumptions.

/end of rant

who's the one person?!?!

i don't know how fnordius meant it, but for me it wouldn't be a derogatory sentiment. the way petrie is in the media, the way he presents himself, the moves he's made, they form an image and reputation of a guy who tends to play things safe, who tends to not rock the boat. it's as if webber's knee blowing out took all the fight and risk-taking out of him.

you contrast him with the outspoken-ness and flamboyance of the maloofs (who clearly are not as basketball-savvy), and it's understandable to see how someone can come up with that view: a smart basketball GM working for demanding albeit dumber bosses (as far as basketball is concerned).

 

[ezekielbear]

Hardly. Their playoff hopes obviously hinge on Baron Davis' back, but they won 58 percent of their games when he was healthy: they were on track to win 48-50 games. To say nothing of the fact of how they've clearly improved since the trade.

And, as Dallas has shown, it's alright to be over the cap as long as you're good. If they continue to improve, as I expect they shall, it won't matter that they're capped out.

And, can you give me a season in which Baron Davis hasn't been injured recently? He's never healthy.

Let's run down his past 6 seasons:

50 Games
67 Games
18 Games
28 Games
54 Games
63 Games

Dallas hasn't showing anything IMO. They have an owner that would buy the world if he could. He's even came out in public and said they have to cool it on spending, because they're losing too much money.

The Warriors are in cap hell and are on their greatest day, a mid level playoff team...and IMO, a low seed playoff team.

Mullin is not a good GM, IMO. He made a good move to rid Dunleavy and Murphy, no doubt. But those were his stupid mistakes in the first place. Bird and Walsh just have a thing for overpaid jump shooters.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I have to laugh at this assumption, because everyone acts as if they know what's gone on between the Maloofs and Petrie.

It's been the fans who have made a lot of assumptions about what this season was supposed to accomplish. And I think, for the most part, those assumptions - especially early in the year - were wrong.

I think it's insulting to Petrie to make the "lacks the 'nads" type comment, especially when I could count on one hand and have at least four fingers left over the number of people on this board who might have actual experience in dealing with this type of situation.

The Maloofs and Petrie, from most reports, have a good working relationship. And dealing with the owners is obviously something every GM has to put up with, some more than others of course and some more publicly than others.

The bottom line is that I firmly believe people are attributing things to both the Maloofs and to Geoff Petrie that they couldn't possibly really know. And I think it's unfair to make derogatory comments based on those kinds of assumptions.

/end of rant

Well either the Maloofs have been forcing him to make bad decisions or they're his bad decisions. You can't use the Maloofs to excuse the bad moves (or non-moves) and then turn around and say he does have the will to stand up to them.

 

[nbrans]

Well either the Maloofs have been forcing him to make bad decisions or they're his bad decisions. You can't use the Maloofs to excuse the bad moves (or non-moves) and then turn around and say he does have the will to stand up to them.

What bad decisions?

I understand some people hate the Webber trade, but not everyone. Other than that, how can anyone criticize him for bad decisions when very few of the trades, draft picks and signings that have been made in the last couple of years have been bad on their face? I mean, yeah, we all are waiting for a home run, but without knowing what was offered, how can you really criticize him too strongly for inaction?

 

[ezekielbear]

It's like Petrie is expected to turn a rock into a gold nugget with every move since people are used to him finding a steal/winning a trade, etc.

The guy is human. He'll make mistakes just like every GM.

 

[thatguy]

What bad decisions?

I understand some people hate the Webber trade, but not everyone. Other than that, how can anyone criticize him for bad decisions when very few of the trades, draft picks and signings that have been made in the last couple of years have been bad on their face? I mean, yeah, we all are waiting for a home run, but without knowing what was offered, how can you really criticize him too strongly for inaction?

Now you've gone and done it. Using reason? Brace thyself for the backlash of the omniscient.